UKC

...and let's hope that's an end to this non-sense.

Why? Some people want to climb the hardest boulder problem, the most difficult sport route or the highest E grade trad route, why not the fastest climbing?

Probably best left to others to decide what their own goals are eh? 

Maybe there should be more focus on every day climbers, who often pull off feats well beyond what they believed. I’d love an article when I do my first E3* ‘Here’s Phil, he’s just climbed an E3 despite having a bit of podge on his belly and not being a professional sportsman with all the benefits that entails’.

This news is no great surprise, is unrelatable to the vast majority and quite frankly.. who gives a damn?

*actually no, I wouldn’t. 

Amazing.

On the table, why are some names in black, some in blue and some in red?

It's a WIkipedia screenshot, so some are hyperlinks and the red ones are some weird hyperlinks that don't have an article associated with them. 

The peak of narcissism making an unrelated news article about yourself and the peak of UKC by moaning while you do it. 

Tongue was well and truly in cheek. See the *..

Ah, so you mean you DO give a damn!

No, I don’t. Nice try! 

Adding a speed element (to that degree) to something that is already inherently dangerous is just foolish.

I think its just a bit boring

Well, speed climbing as horrifying as it is, and even though I'd never do this style of climbing, I find very interesting to read as these things are at the limit of human capability at the moment. 

Similarly with Alex Honnold soloing El Cap, Dave Macleod  moving house to climb Echo Wall, Ondra flashing 9a+, Steve Mcclure succeeding on 9b after years of dedication and a lifetime of climbing or Ted Kingsnorth ticking 8c+ after 3 years of flying over to the USA to try a stupendous line. These are all stories that I like to read about and a lot of people find inspiring.

That is not to say that a story of you climbing your first E3 may not be good to read. A load of people have climbed their first E1,E2, whatever after maybe spending years convinced they'd never get passed VS or HVS, and that could be a rewarding personal journey that's worth reading about.  

Btw, I've met a lot of "professional" climbers and virtually all with the exception of maybe the very top few make a living out of routesetting, coaching and lectures or just have a whole different career you don't hear about on UKC. Steve Mac climbed multiple routes between 8c and 9a while he still worked as an engineer for example. 
At Malham you will also see multiple people doing routes between 8a and 8c while having normal careers.  

Pretty much anyone in climbing that can spare about 4 days a week for it can improve massively if they do the right things in their training and truly want to push their limits to a crazy level.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s interesting to a degree.. but shaving minutes off each lap is obviously going to happen as you’ll pick up little tricks at each further attempt at which point it stops becoming interesting and becomes boring and repetitive. They’ll do it again in a few days a minute or two faster.. at what point does it stop mattering?

Personally speaking, that point has long passed. Continuous repeating of a route isn’t news.

As I thought I’d made clear, the story of me ever doing an E3, or Sally doing a VS or whatever isn’t ever going to match in reporting interest but that’s where climbing media is going wrong. Too much focus on the unrelatable. More ‘humans of climbing’ photo/story series I think UKC was/is responsible for, less vertical gymnastics.. please! 

Which ever one of them left their wallet on top of El Cap after Monday's attempt owes the other a massive beer. 

They should have to do it again chased by Wolf from Gladiators.

My main objection to it ordinarily would be that climbers make it faster by saying to each other " that section would be so much faster too if we don;t use any safety equipment. "  "Woop Woop, Brofist dude! hell yeah!  I never realised before, but you're right, that's totally awesome dude!  Doing things more dangerously makes them so much faster!  Amazing!  It's like totally the Max Power Way.  Someone call NASA!"

Like I said, ordinarily that's my objection.  As ultimately that would result in someone free soloing El Cap.

But Alex has been there, done that...

‘ is unrelatable to the vast majority’

 Claptrap. Mind how you go with your ill thought-out ideas.

I see your point, but to be honest speed climbing 800 meters of mostly slabby granite with hardly any protection is the last thing I'd call vertical gymnastics!  I can see your point and how it's hard to relate for some people, but a lot of others find it interesting.  There's a ton of stuff in the climbing media I find unrelatable (gear reviews for loads of equipment I don't need for instance) but I really don't mind that being out there as loads of other people with other interest, needs will find it useful or fun to read. I also think that a well written article about someone's journey from Vdiff to let's say E1 could be a lovely read. Is climbing E1 on itself newsworthy though? No, because so many people do it every week.  In the case of those - two rock athletes are smashing a famous record repeatedly. I feel uncomfortable supporting their challenge as it's such a dangerous one, however each to their own. UK trad can be madly dangerous as well and if you slip off Brown's Eliminate at Froggatt at the wrong spot it can have the same consequences.

Similarly, I don't fell run but I'd be interested to read if somebody is destroying the Bob Graham record or the Welsh 3000s top time, etc.

Incredible achievement! Wow! Took me 2hrs to gear up and do the first pitch...

Mostly slabby granite?

Sorry I've been sport climbing mostly lately and been calling pretty much any vertical wall a slab!  

You'll be fine on El Cap mate.  It's just a slab - you'll crush it.  Book your flights now.

Good effort sir.  Everyone say hello to one of the people on this thread most qualified to comment.

Perhaps UKC should do a 'Perfect Punters' series to complement the 'Perfect Partners' series, which I think has been great in making the 'wads' a more relateable to the common punter such as myself. As for Alex and Tommy, I'm sure they're having fun with it, and both have bags of more interesting achievements to their names that are pretty hard for anyone to yawn at.

Some people find it interesting if you can shave a millisecond off the 100m record, not my thing so to me this is much more fascinating as a speed challenge with all of the vertical problem solving. If someone wants to try and do anything faster or in a different style then as long as they do it for them I'm all good with it. You never hear anybody criticising the Wideboyz after doing the 'Staffordshire Nose' record (literally not a single negative comment), but I guess that's on grit so immune to snobbery. 

hahaha on it now!  Btw with the quote - what I meant to say is that hundreds of meters of extremely technical slab on granite is pretty far removed from the image that springs into my mind when I hear "vertical gymnastics" in which I imagine a strength based massive overhang.  

Yeah but ever since notorious fast bean pole Usain Bolt broke the world record, short rock climbers have dismissed the 100m sprint as reach dependent and a bit morpho

Good for you. That's some nice words. But you have to climb El Cap now, to prove that anything you've ever said, and ever will say say in future, on any subject, relevant or not, wasn't just sour grapes.

You seem to be implying that you won't die if you fall hundreds of metres down a "slab".

zmv won't

I do hope Tommy and Alex don't read this, they will be devastated that a bunch of VS climbers have all concluded that pushing the limits of what is humanly possible in one of the most beautiful areas on the planet (and getting paid for it) is futile. 

What's the speed record for Three Pebble Slab? 

How do they deal with the endless people, parties and general cluster f*cks that are on every pitch and ledge on the nose? 

Reading UKC comments on speed climbing articles is uncomfortably similar to reading Daily Mail comments on climbing stories or hillwalking accidents.

"I don't understand." "That seems a bit pointless." "Surely that's dangerous."

Yes, it's different from the type of climbing challenge that most of us set ourselves but we all follow some fairly arbitrary sets of rules that often increase the risk to some degree. It seems short-sighted and hypocritical to get too judgemental.

Personally, I don't find it all that relatable but it's still impressive and I enjoy the drama of it.

That is exactly what I wanted to say last night but couldn't think of the right words. 

Let's be honest not even 1%of the people posting on ukc know what speed ascents actually entail, how dangerous they are or the relative risks.

Is it more dangerous than Alex's solo? F*ck knows, but the two guys who are the most experienced to make those decisions are the only ones making that decision. 

I think it almost certainly is unrelatable to the vast majority. In fact, it's unrelatable to all but a very few. How many of us do anything which can be termed 'speed climbing'? And I don't mean on a toprope at the indoor wall!

I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling a complete disconnect with speed climbing. All climbing is pointless but speed climbing to me seems both pointless and dull. Each to their own though.

Stunning achievement. You felt they had it in them just didn't realise the other records were basically training runs. 

Perhaps people would have been more impressed if they'd kept the first two runs secret.

Which direction?

Well said Luke. Its all just a different games, all of which involve risk. I'd add that Mail readers have more of an excuse than climbers do.

I think the other records probably only become "just training runs" with the benefit of hindsight. If they'd been a couple of minutes quicker on the previous attempt, that would have got them under the two hour mark and I'm sure they wouldn't have tried again.

That's probably not possible in this day and age if you also want to have enough observers for the record to be counted.

I'm not criticising people for feeling disconnected from it. I said myself that I don't relate to it very much. The part I don't like is the leap from "this is very different from what I do and it doesn't appeal to me" to "this is pointless and the risks involved are therefore stupid". That strikes me as very hypocritical from a group of people who all, I presume, choose to climb things without a top rope because that "wouldn't count" for reasons that are difficult to understand and arbitrary for most of the general population.

Exactly!

Great effort guys!

I think the criticisms about these speed attempts being dangerous just shows a lack on understanding of these two climbers. You are just assuming that because it seems hard and dangerous for you, it must be as hard and dangerous for them too.

Having read both Alex's and Tommy's autobiographies neither of them are reckless as the media and public perception paints them to be, neither of them consider themselves to be big risk takers. Both take a very careful and considered approach to risk.

On all of Alex's big solos, they are on routes that he has climbed numerous times before, has the majority of the crux moves dialled, and are generally many grades below his limit. There really is very little difference between what he does and a VS climber soloing VDiffs at Stanage in terms of the risks involved.

The same goes for the speed attempts, they are both very experienced big wall climbers and know what they are doing, they are both very familiar with the route and know it to be well below their limit. They have all the ropes skills nailed. For them these speed attempts are far less dangerous, than some punter in the UK trying to push their trad grade.

What a stunning achievement!

Both amazing and incomprehensible in equal measure.

Free solo and aid solo are way slower than team speed ascent, there's a lot of aid climbing on the speed ascents.

I love the Perfect Punters idea. Who wants to be the first puntership? (Seriously - I'd be up for a series! email natalie@ukclimbing.com)

Edit: *Puntnership, maybe?

Not so completely unrelatable really, if you've done one of those 'so many routes at Stanage in a day  type challenges'.

Theo and I would do it  

Isn't there an equation that lets you figure that out from the frequency of ukc regradings and a wavelength?

Counted for what? Do they get a certificate? 

I've done a punter's guide to climbing Stetind in the past http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2013/09/stetinds-sydpilaren-south-pil... although my partner that day is less of a punter than me.

Cross-pollinating with another current thread, should you restrict such puntnerdom to people who can't get up Verandah Buttress

Risk levels must be almost impossible to quantify and Tommy and Alex must be THE most qualified climbers on the planet to do this, but the tragedy on El Cap earlier this week shows that this type of climbing is far from as safe as we might assume when it is done predominantly by only a small number of extremely accomplished climbers. 

It remains a remarkable achievement by remarkable climbers nevertheless. 

I think I'm going to have to go and have a go at it this weekend now. I wear my punterdom with pride, so adding that to my ever growing list of routes I've failed on perhaps is important for my punter's CV!

So did Ueli Steck, though.

I wish I'd never scrolled down to read the comments.

Possibly. I presume you mean leading rather than soloing (with the latter you can do tons of stuff in a short time with very little effort I find, on easy stuff that is), and surely not simulclimbing?!

it would make a great Olympic sport rather than indoor speed climbing.

Good article from a similar perspective to what I see in climbing. I'm not actually good but like adventure and getting out! Maybe Alex just likes the same and makes it happen a bit more.

When do they get to race Clarkson? 

How many of us do anything which can be termed 'speed climbing'? And I don't mean on a toprope at the indoor wall!

 Very, very few. Certainly not me. That doesn’t mean I, or many thousands of other climbers can’t ‘relate’ to what these boys have done.  

There is now a move to beat the 48 days it took to first climb the Nose to 49. This will be a remarkable achievement if done in one push to the top.

They’re going to be gutted when they get to Tokyo and the setting is different.

etc etc

All of what you say is true in one sense but in another it misses the point. People don't generally die on the hardest routes, they die from simple slips, momentary lapses of concentration or just plain bad luck (broken hold for example). Climbing history has many examples of highly skilled climbers at the top of their game who died for these reasons.

When you push the limits and remove the safety net then luck becomes a factor at whatever level you climb, nobody is immune to that and if you push your luck too many times then sooner or later it will run out. Ueli Steck said he was going to stop soloing because he knew his luck would run out but he didn't stop in time.

Of course all climbing involves some risk and everyone is free to take whatever level of risk they wish. Many of us have pushed the boat out in one way or another and have had a few close shaves but as the recent accident on El Cap showed, when you push the boat out and take away the safety net and your luck runs out there's only one result.

I'm not criticising Honnold and Caldwell for trying to break 2hrs on the Nose if that's what they want to do then fine but lets not kid ourselves that they aren't taking huge risks or that their ability and the right mindset will always protect them.

Yes, we did a challenge, last year, that required 22 routes to be done (upto HVS) and others were doing 'all the starred VS's (35?). Also, surely anyone who's done alpine stuff, travelling fast and light, must be in a similar place. Then there's Ron Fawcett's 100 E's in a day.

These speedy climbing adventures are not as rare or outlandish as half the posters on here would like to make out.

'Relate' in what way? I have no conception of what this sort of thing is like. In contrast, if you were to pick one of the free climbing routes put up there in the last decade or so, I feel I could still 'relate' through climbing stuff in the mountains at/near my own limit, and working shorter routes. Of course, there are other variables such as the big wall situation and all that goes along with it, but it's not inconceivable. 

That sounds like good fun but still barely the same disclipline. Something like a 2hr ascent of the Needle would seem to be getting nearer in terms of similar thing but at a punter standard.  

I think anyone who has actually stood underneath this monolith and gazed upwards in awe cannot be utterly blown away by the fact that 2 people have managed to climb it in under 2 hrs.

A truly amazing achievement and I wonder if Jim and Brad will now give it another go?

It was great fun. I agree it is not in the same league but the approach (planning, climbing quickly but safely, perhaps placing less gear and or using only one rope when you might prefer two, working as a team) makes me feel it is at least 'relatable'. 

Presuming a certain amount of zig-zagging in the ascent, this time is pretty much in line with Naismith's Rule

That is exactly the thing. Why are so many armchair climbers telling them off to take the risk they wanted to take? If they're not interfering with others on the route, endangering them, then it's their free choice. Life is not about who lives the safest, otherwise why do we climb at all?

I can't actually see many people on this thread doing that. One or two? 

No, but it always amuses me during these discussions when people compare El Cap to Stanage!

Indeed. Stannage is so much more dangerous. I think it's fair to say if Tommy had taken a 100 foot fall at Stannage he wouldn't have been in any sort of shape to set records.

Unless you include rolling down the slope at the bottom, he'd have had to jump a fair distance in the air (at least 20' ?) to manage a 100' fall at Stanage

The Supertopo thread seems to have got back on course, after some moderation, with some good contributions. This one from John Long seems to address your post rather well:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3093022/Death-on-El-Cap-Freeblast-t...

You're right, it is actually not that many. Thanks for correcting my bias. More folk that stands negative to the feat, says it is not interesting.

Brown and Whillans did OK in the Alps after their gritstone 'apprenticeship'.

It's more the grit-centric nature of it that amuses me. A bit like the alps = Chamonix!

I see what you mean. It's interesting how there can be quite substantial debates on UKC over moves on particular routes at Rivelin (say). I guess a large proportion of UK climbers are active there

Bloody amazing, and to all the moaners... doing el cap speed ascents mean a they can do things like the fitz traverse. It's all part and parcel. Get a grip

That's nowt. Took my bro 2 hours mid-pitch  to work out how to second a tension traverse when jugging. ...never occurred to us that some aid techniques would be worth reading up on before getting on the wall.

For what it's worth, I really don't "get" speed climbing at all for me personally, but I get even less comments like "it's too risky", "its boring" etc. ....on a climbing forum? Posters of this stuff wouldn't be called climbers over there.

youtube.com/watch?v=XG4ubEPPN7U&

in case anyone hasn’t seen this. Fairly eye-opening. Isn’t this the Stovelegs? And isn’t that where Caldwell took a 100 footer practising? Interesting if so - this guy would have gone way further than that.

jcm

Isn’t this the Stovelegs?

No, John. The Stovelegs Crack is out of sight below the bivvy ledge atop Dolt Tower; the very run-out climbing shown in the clip is in the section from Dolt to El Cap Tower.

Fascinating bit of video. 'The did two pitches in the time it took us to drink half our coffee. And they did it in better style'.

he says three pitches? so maybe 4 in the full clip.

similar length/difficulty as DOWH

You're right - he says three not two. And yes can you imagine simul-sprinting DOWH with just one runner at the end of the first pitch? Eeek.

I find drinking coffee quite easy. Sounds like they need to work on it