UKC

Hi,

I was wondering what the general consensus is within the community regarding people using websites such as GoFundMe to make up the costs of a trip, given that an effort has been made to gain sponsorship support and partially self-fund? And when I say trip, I don't just mean a holiday to Fontainebleau, but more of an expedition style thing which would be a pain in the butt/impossible for a young professional to entirely pay for themselves.

This appeal for example went down like a lead balloon... https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/the_worlds_youngest_person_to_do...

Thanks.

 

In reply to timmr002:

The general consensus is that people should pay for their own trips. I think that's fairly obvious from the previous thread you linked to.

In reply to timmr002:

Pay for your own vacation.  Just like we all do.

In reply to timmr002:

If you are crowd-funding something then unless it is clearly a charitable/altruistic endeavour that others will sympathise with , then you are going to have to promise something in return. Maybe if you were going to make a professional-quality film of an interesting and unusual adventure along the way and then give copies to people who had contributed, that could work. 

In reply to timmr002:

I wouldn't be against the idea per se, but my main concern would be: if the outcome of the expedition isn't notable and/or likely enough for sponsors to want to be involved, why would Joe Public want to be? It certainly would be a hard sell.

In reply to timmr002:

What does this mean?

 

In reply to J1234:

A young 'entitled' professional.

In reply to 99ster:

It means he works 9-5, went to university and therefore deserves other people’s money to go climbing. 

In reply to 99ster:

It means he works 9-5, went to university and therefore deserves other people’s money to go climbing. 

In reply to timmr002:

Fund your own holidays.

I do also question many charity events, where they pay your entry fee if you raise X. After entry fees, event, paid staff wages, costs of staging the event, the free t shirt, event insurances etc.. how much does a charity actually gain. 

In reply to john arran:

Things may have changed, but the sports council used have a small pot you can claim from if you are pushing boundaries in adventure sports. 

In reply to timmr002:

In my opinion you are not going to get much sympathy on this forum, or with climbers generally, saying that

To fund my trips, I work, save up all of the money I need, then go - even if I find it "a pain in the butt". And if it is "impossible ... to entirely pay for" myself, I either [1] save up for longer or [2] reduce/ cheapen my objective until I can pay for it myself

In reply to summo:

There are still grant funding possibilities for suitable expeditions. I suggest the OP looks on the BMC site for info. I doubt they will be enthusiastic about bouldering expeditions though!

In reply to summo:

Good point but in my opinion that is not the worst of charity fundraising, at least regarding climbing. I looked carefully into one case where a guy (who I will not name) raised a vast amount of money from donors to go to other peaks, then Everest. The fundraising hook was "it is for charity". However, the vast amount of money raised was used to pay the vast cost of the trips (especially Everest, of course). The charity got WAY less than half the money raised. (And PS the guy kept all the very expensive gear for himself). Then he launched a career as a motivational speaker. Smacks of self-interest for the guy to me

In reply to profitofdoom:

I never understood those cycling/running/climbing for charity projects. I could never figure out how the charity benefits from the expedition instead of me giving the money directly to a charity of my choice (which I do). I don't think this is a new internet-Millenial thing, though. I remember "Cycling to India for Charity" people standing around in the city a decade ago.

In reply to kenneM:

"he works 9-5" <-wrong

"he" <- how do you know my gender, out of curiosity? 

I don't see how me asking about crowd funding makes me "entitled" or "deserving" in any way. I haven't asked for a penny, but just asked for people's opinions on the topic, not for their opinions on me...

In reply to timmr002:

Thanks to those who left constructive replies

In reply to timmr002:

So your name isn't Tim?

In reply to timmr002:

I guess one click to your profile, second click to pictures submitted (including your full name?)

Must’ve been an old ‘professional’ that figured it out  

 

 

In reply to Tobes:

Great breasts too. 

In reply to Tobes:

I was wondering if this was the case. Just checking.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

no

In reply to Michael Gordon:

No, it's Ryan Timms, Ms Ryan Timms to you.

People back all kinds of crazy crap and obvious scams on kickstarter.  If you're honest with people about what they're supporting and what they're getting out of it, then why the hell not? 

You're just going to have a bad time if you promote yourself to actual climbers!

 

In reply to timmr002:

Pay for your own holidays.....

In reply to timmr002:have you ever contributed to a crowdfunding scheme?  I have, but it has to more than compelling - it has to be something I think is worthwhile, where the person asking absolutely knows what they're doing and it has to have a credible plan, and request.  

The one you referred to at the start is just a joke and fails all those test.  Paying for  your holiday is not going to happen. Why don't you go on a crowdfunding site and spend some of your own money - if you decide to commit a £100 of your own you'll get a lot better idea of what other people will fund

 

In reply to timmr002:

I would probably sponsor someone who is either under 21 or leading such a group if I had a personal connection to them, their cause or the group as a whole. When I was 18, sponsorship from a huge number of people and the banks community fund were very helpful for a trip to the Andes, and I don't forget that. 

In reply to timmr002:

Were you just asking for a friend?

Called Tim perchance?

I've given money to under-25s to support their travel but 1. I personally knew them 2. they were grafters, working hard to make their own way in the world and 3. not just a holiday, also an experience that would help their career. No way in the world would I contribute without all those conditions being true.

 

Would anyone support a climbing expedition to develop a new area for everyone, e.g. if the money was spent on bolts or pegs and other essential equipment?

 

In reply to timmr002:

In the link you gave, the individual has only raised £1844 so far through gofundme and $0 through just giving (the latter now closed). It’s more than just the climbing community that seem to have thoughts on this type of thing given the lack of donations over nine months.

Personally, I would only consider it if there was more to it than just doing something that the person could normally do if they had the money - a wider benefit directly or indirectly.  Even then, I prefer giving direct to the charity involved if there is doubt.

In reply to Paz:

I´ve been involve in a few (I ´ve been asked/quoted for the bolts) and following up the normal result seems to be about 10% of the asked sum. Basically they always seem to be a bunch of enthusiastic but naiive guys with no track record that want to develop somewhere so obscure no-one would ever go there.

Anyone with a good reputation for finding quality venues and bolting them would be able to find the funding through the grapevine.

In reply to jimtitt:

Good effort sir. 

Don't you wire the money in advance on kickstarter?

A friend, Tom C named a mountain in Greenland after his girlfriend.  I hope they're still together.  Some others on a different trip named something after a total dude who helped them plan their expedition.

Naming a mountain after someone would be an awesome stretch goal, for a wedding present for someone or an in memoriam, if a tad cynical modern capitalist one! 

It's bound to lead to Mount Redbull Extreme Sports Drink 500ml (Low calorie version).

In reply to Paz:

On a much smaller scale, after our daughter Amélie was born I couldn't resist naming the next route I equipped and climbed after her

Still waiting for a second ascent I think; maybe she'll do it when it's older - it's 'only' 8a.

In reply to john arran:

Wonderful!  Everyone would probably otherwise assume you named it after the film.

In reply to Paz:

Was there not someone years ago who got an exped sponsored by Durex and there were similar concerns about some remote peak being named Mount Durex or such like?

 

In reply to DaveHK:

That's a brilliant story lol.  I heard rumours of high altitude mountaineers using viagra, but I can't think what climbers would use Durex's product line for.  Other than what it's normally used for.  Although British army legend has it, some of their products are very good for keeping your rifles clean in the desert.

In reply to DaveHK:

That is a bit of a stretch

In reply to DaveHK:

At least the climb had good protection.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

And was very safe all round. But I cannot condome their behaviour

In reply to timmr002:

To consider your question from a couple of angles:

Crowdfunding does not get you money from strangers (or not much). The crowdfunding platforms offer a mechanism to raise funds from an audience you already have. Family, friends, fans, social media followers.... So if you have a fan-base and a compelling personality and a cool goal, yes, you might be able to crowdfund from your base. Successful crowdfunders have put a lot of work into preparing their audience before they launch the appeal. A crowdfunder that is going to succeed normally has at least 20% of the money come in in the first 24 hours.  

Crowdfunders do better is there a 'product' supporters (hopefully) get in return for their donation. For 'adventure' trips, that is normally a book or a film. In that case the expedition funds have probably come from somewhere else - grants or sponsors.  If you appear to just be asking other people to fund your holiday (and an 'adventure' or 'conquering a mountain' has no more intrinsic value than a beach holiday) the appeal will fail. 

Yes, there was a crowdfunded Everest expedition out of the UK a few years ago. But it was a very specific set of circumstances that would be hard to replicate. He lost his sponsorship in January, and so had a dramatic count-down deadline that gave urgency to the appeal. He had cancer and was raising money for a cancer charity, and the C-word does have impact. The drama of the story got him national press coverage and that is what filled up his coffers. He was always clear about how much money was needed to pay for the trip and that all the money after that would go to the charity. There was no deception. But it is interesting that he got twice of much money for his trip as was donated thereafter to the charity.

To look at your question differently, this is not at all true - "an expedition style thing which would be a pain in the butt/impossible for a young professional to entirely pay for themselves." There are British climbers successfully paying for entire expeditions from the UK's generous network of climbing grants. But these grants are for genuinely adventurous trips to do new routes / unclimbed peaks / explore little known valleys. The objectives don't have to be hard, just (relatively) unexplored. These sort of expeditions can be pretty cheap - as in a couple of 1000 pounds. 

But what these grants don't do is hand out money so someone can pay a guide to take them up Everest to be the 411th Briton to reach the summit. For that you need to come up with your own money, or a pitch compelling enough to get a sponsor and media coverage. And in 2018 there were still Brits managing sponsored Everest climbs. So it can be done. But either you as an individual or your objective does need to have something to make it stand out to sponsors. 

 

In reply to Marmolata:

Is that like the delibratly bad violinists you pay to go away in Firenze?

In reply to DaveHK:

Not everyone has the money, the means, or the time-off to manage trips like this.

Nobody seems to get uppity when the armed forces fund and support service men and women's numerous expeditions, nor if a cash-rich company supports staff on expeditions that double as advertising programmes.

Why is the climbing community so expectant that those without access to this support either pay out of their own pocket or not at all? 

In reply to timmr002:

I can see where you are coming from and appreciate your situation. I want to take a year or so out and do a round the world trip on my motorcycle but its impossible for me to do financially. 

Tell you what I will do. If you set up a go fund me page I will donate to your trip as long as you make an equal donation to mine. 

In reply to Pan Ron:

And most of those people either find a way or accept that they won't go on such trips.

I think there's a fundamental difference between an organisation or company choosing to spend their cash in this way and asking individuals to pay for your trip. As you point out it's advertising or some other benefit to the company. What the op is suggesting will bring no benefit to the backers.

I don't think this is a climbing community thing, I honestly can't see many people from any community stumping up their hard earned cash for someone else (in this case someone who probably already earns more than average wage) to go on a trip. Some people are willing to contribute to trips where there's a charity connection like building houses in Malawi but again, that's not what the op was suggesting.

As others have pointed out it might be different if something was being offered in return (a film of the adventure say hell, even a cheese and wine night!) but that wasn't what the op said.

In reply to Pan Ron:

Right, and not everyone has the money to eat in a top restaurant every night, or fly to the USA first class, or stay in the Ritz Hotel in London. I do not, so I do not do those things

What is the alternative you suggest apart from these two options? Do you think climbers should fund private climbing trips for those "without access to this support"? Thank you

In reply to profitofdoom:

Errrr, crowd-funding perhaps?  

It's not coming out of my pocket or my taxes so what's the harm?  If someone makes a sufficiently decent request for cash then maybe I would pay.   But its not compulsory.

That's the whole idea and beauty of crowd-funding.  You get to have your request seen by a massive number of people and they get to make their own personal decision on whether it deserves support.  

Why not?  I really don't see the harm.

In reply to DaveHK:

Well presumably their little adventure brings some personal benefit which will likely then trickle down to their usefulness in future employment or life.  This seems to be the underlying reason why the military supports its staff doing these things.

I agree completely.  I just don't begrudge anyone trying.  Look at Kickstarter or any other crowdfunding site and there are all manner of chancers giving it a go.

 

In reply to Pan Ron:

Right, good point. No harm done. (I think they are wasting their time, but that is not the point - it is up to them, as you said). I also do not begrudge anyone trying, as you replied to someone else

In reply to profitofdoom:

Its actually become a quite acceptable form of finance these days.

There are now crowd-sourced loan services instead of bank loans and they are seeming increasingly common.  

I attended an information evening for a course recently, the two methods they recommended for course finance were either the government Professional Career Development Loan programme....or this https://www.edaid.com/ (basically a crowd-sourcing site to pitch for a loan for education).  As the PCDL scheme is apparently closing, crowd-sourcing is increasingly looking like the norm, if not the only available option.

Changing times

In reply to timmr002:

Not really got a problem with this.  People either choose to provide funding - or they don't.  Its all about marketing as it always has been for expedition funding.

In reply to GrahamD:

Seems we have a rather reactionary readership at UKC if the OP gets 27 downvotes and not one show of support for this.

In reply to Pan Ron:

I think that’s something else. Those education loans are repayable, which is not what the OP means. He’s just asking for money for free.

In reply to Pan Ron:

What do you mean "reactionary"? I fail to see this - what I see is that unless there is significant merit in doing otherwise people should fund their own jollies.

In reply to timmr002:

I understand why people don't like the idea of paying for somebody else's adventure. I don't understand why the original poster has received quite such a hostile reply to the question.

Is there some context I'm missing where he's actually asking people to give him money or being deceptive in some way? It seemed like an innocent enough question, to me.

If I posted a thread asking what people think of Trump, I would predict a lot of negativity but I don't think people would assume I supported him.

In reply to Pan Ron:

Remember that the original question was what people thought about crowdfunding a trip, not what people thought about crowdfunding in general.

You seem to be conflating the two.

In reply to DaveHK:

I'm really not seeing an issue here.  People aren't forced to crowd fund something they don't want to fund.  Its not like a tax increase and there isn't the "but its for charity" moral blackmail angle either.

In reply to gravy:

People should.  But not everyone can. 

Plenty of people give to charity, money which then goes to providing jollies for others - Duke of Edinburgh scholarships, outdoor experience equipment, and so on.

But a sizeable proportion of the population falls outside of that general charitable remit, or don't fit on the glossy brochure.  A lot of people are simply hard up.

Crowdfunding is a modern solution to making personal appeals.  It carries zero pressure (its not door-to-door, there are no "chuggers" accosting you on the street, no TV appeals, not someone walking around the office shaking a tin for their bike-ride to Brighton).  It is 100% down to the appeal posted and the viewpoint of the donating party.  It can even be a useful way of seeking donations entirely from family and friends.

I'm surprised it elicits a substantial and 100% negative reaction on here.  

 

In reply to Pan Ron:

I don't think that anyone is objecting to those who want to try crowd funding giving it a go, they're merely explaining why it's unlikely to get them much money. 

In reply to Pan Ron:

I still have no idea what you meaning you meant to convey with the word, "reactionary"!

 

In reply to gravy:

Just looks a bit like the reaction you get to a top-roping or gritstone thread.  A curmudgeonly "none of this new fangled stuff for me, thank you very much", do it the way we always have or don't do it at all.  Seems to be deciding that a crowd-funding plea for a climbing experience, without even considering the merits of any particular case, is automatically bad.  Hobnail boots and hemp rope is where it needs to be.

 

In reply to Pan Ron:

You're still managing to misinterpret what most posters are saying on this thread. Coel said it quite clearly just above but I'll try again. The issue isn't crowd funding, the issue is someone who probably earns over the average wage asking strangers to fund a holiday and not offering anything in return. There isn't any particular reason why they shouldn't ask (other than embarassment or a sense of decency maybe) but there are pretty obvious reasons why people wouldn't contribute.

That's the scenario we've been discussing as presented by the op. Would you donate in that scenario?

In reply to Pan Ron:

Nope - that doesn't make sense here, return to status quo ante isn't what people are on about.  They've not got an issue with the new fangled mechanism.  The response is much the same as the OP would have got asking the old way for a few fivers so they could go on a jolly.

In reply to DaveHK:

The scenario you describe sounds a little different from what the OP describes:  a) the utility of crowd funding, b) gaining sponsorship on top of self-funding, c) noting this isn't a holiday, but an expedition, d) that would be impossible to pay entirely themselves.

Assuming this person "probably earns over the average", and is asking strangers to fund "a holiday" is pure conjecture and at odds with the specifics posted in the OP. 

Whether I would pay is beside the point.  I've paid to crowd-funding sites before, some where I've had a return, others where I haven't.  I wouldn't fund this, but you only have to look at crowd funding sites to see people request, and receive funding, for all manner of things.  I suspect in this case they would gain something other than zero.  There's a good chance at the very least friends and family would find it an easy means to offer financial support than writing cheques.  Not everyone has above average salaries, or works for a company that will pay a few grand to have their logo printed on their ski poles.

Wading in with downvotes on this, and the 2017 proposal, when you can simply ignore it, strikes me as a bit off.

In reply to Pan Ron:

The op asked for our opinions.

 

In reply to DaveHK:

Yeah he did.  I hope the response doesn't make him despondent, or that he assumes the UKC community represents the outside world or an accurate reflection on how crowd-funding works.  And if keen enough he goes ahead and tries it anyway.

It would be a shame if he didn't get to pursue this ambition on account of, what appears to me to be, a faulty assumption that crowd (the clue is in the name) funding won't work.

In reply to Pan Ron:

I wonder if you were to analyse your reasons for not supporting such a case you might find that they're exactly the same as mine and that of most others on this thread: taken at face value it isn't worthy.

In reply to DaveHK:

Possibly.  For much the same reason as the "Please fund my 20km walk" don't get much support from me, or likely anyone one UKC.

But crowd-funding isn't UKC.  Its not people in the know, its a slice of the general public.  What isn't particularly impressive to us is quite impressive to them.  I'd wager someone proposing an "Expedition", with enough proof they are actually attempting it, and its something that they are half funding themselves, with the promise of interesting photos and a "daredevil" element that would make Sun headline writers proud, would garner some support on GoFundMe and similar sites.  Fair play to them - evidently funders themselves get some degree of satisfaction from these, and they operate on a network model.  When Aunt Mavis pledges her £10, so might someone Mavis knows.  Or a complete stranger who has funded similar events.  Creative appeals may even offer things back to funders, which after a bit of deeper reading, the OP might also somehow incorporate in to their fund-raising strategy.

Anyway, no bah humbug from me on it.  Not my thing exactly but wouldn't dissuade anyone else from trying.

In reply to Pan Ron:

The bid from the previous thread is currently at 1% of the target request, after 9 months. 

In reply to Pan Ron:

and the difference is?

 

In reply to Pan Ron:

Is this uppity enough for you ?:

Well you know, the United Kingdom under Theresa May has committed itself to be whipping boy / human shield / early warning dispensible weak ally, for Donald Trump's USA.

And our boys, our brave soldiers are willing to die in battles for whatever f*cked up pointless war they decide between them to start next.  They're merely following orders everyone, and we should all respect that they carry on sitting in their barracks drawing a salary, and not resigning in horror en masse like independent citizens who haven't been brainwashed would .

I'd say blagging a free climbing expedition is absolutely fair play, in return for the United Kingdom stupidly wanting the expedition member to go and fight and die for it, whether that should take place in Afghanistan ( for what exact reason were we in there again, someone remind me (how does it benefit the NHS, education, or even GDP exactly?)) 

Military veterans aren't normally taken care of by some sort of amazing Super-Premium-NHS just for them, its the same NHS as the rest of us, and from each as they can afford, to each as to their need.  It's called Socialism, so f*ck you Help for Heroes for covering up for the Ministry of Defence's exploitation of Poor People.), or whatever poor country we want to pick on next that poses an 'existential threat' to us?

but most sensible climbers are like:  Meh, screw dying for my country.  I'll just chill for a few months in Font instead.  I hear completing one or two of the orange circuits is a better use of your life than dying for England.

If only it didn't incentivise more of the poor sods to enlist. 

 

 

In reply to Paz:

Military veterans aren't normally taken care of by some sort of amazing Super-Premium-NHS just for them, its the same NHS as the rest of us,

Have you seen Stanford Hall DNRC site?

 

 

In reply to Pan Ron:

Might have helped if he'd posted an example of the sort of expedition he had in mind.

In reply to Paz:

Too right. If people give, and (crucially) they're not being misled, then let them give. 

In reply to profitofdoom:

worse than this guy?

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=7500775&rid=12189#...

more than $250k raised for a veterans charity, without any of it actually making it to the charity

 

In reply to Pan Ron:

I hope anyone serious about an "expedition" of any worth at all isn't going to be so light weight as to be put off by a few keyboard warriors like us.  They'll be crying their eyes out over Indian border bureaucracy if they are !

In reply to asteclaru:

Thanks for posting that, the more people who are aware the better

In reply to Paz:

Well you're clearly a selfish tw*t then aren't you. My daughters want to enlist, not so they can die for their country but to help out with all the humanitarian work the forces do. Educate yourself about the freedom you have too.

You can help the needy without joining an instrument of war.

Now you may want to start bandying insults about but joining the forces is a political act and says I am prepared to fight, kill and die on someone else's say so.

Some people prefer to keep the responsibility for those decisions away from politicians (ie don't enlist) and some think (for a variety of reasons, including noble or in some people's eyes misguided ones) that it is a decision they will delegate (and may enlist).

One thing is for sure is that some reasons for enlisting have been widely abused and misused over the ages.

 

In reply to gravy:

UK soldiers have fought and died for you. If you are a citizen of the U.K. and enjoy the freedoms and benefits that this great country affords then you should be a bit more grateful ! So next time you fall off the edge of your bouldering mat or twinge a finger on the woody - think about being an 19 year with no legs that went, fought and came back to a country that was filled with worldly wise, highly educated and greatful individuals such as yourselve. 

Now why don’t you run off down to London and crucify the Grenfell Fire Officer, sure he decided it join the Fire Service, it was his decision, he was there and I’ll blame him from my nice comfy chair. Or maybe what about the guys that have just had leave cancelled to stop the fire around Manchester. So from someone that has clearly served a greater good - tell me what have you done?

So yes I think I will throw insults about - I think your a c#%k.

In reply to kenneM:

Time to start bandying insults about then? what makes you think I'm ungrateful?

In reply to kenneM:

I'd like to think that sometimes soldiers fight so that others might be able to speak freely - although the link is tenuous when some kid gets his legs blown off in the mired conflicts of the Middle East.   

You risk straying into pro patria mori territory