UKC

Bit random but was hoping for advice on what I hope to achieve or better yet someone who has done the same. 

Our house is an old victorian property with a high roof that is made higher by being on a bit of an incline. Use of ladders whilst possible always feel a little precarious. Recently I have had trouble with guttering and pigeons nesting in either the gutters or downpipe hoppers. 

I was hoping to be able to attach some form of protection to the underside of the eave/roof trusses so that I could clip the ladder top myself separately as a bit of protection. The trusses would definitely take my weight from a fall (probably 3-4" wide and 10-12" high). My plan was to bolt in something like a coeur hanger plate by putting a large bolt right through the wood. Probably one every other truss then I could create an equalised anchor from which I could clip the ladder and a rope. Or should I be going for something completely different such as large gate bolt right through the wood, scaffold bolts or eyebolts directly into the stonework (sandstone)? Ideally I would install and leave them so would best be stainless steel. 

In an ideal world I would have a mountain of scaffolding or hire it although this in unfeasible given the amount I would require to get the height and the frequency in which I seem to have to go up to roof level. 

I've looked at this as well because I sometimes nip up onto the roof to check chimney flaunching and ridge tiles etc. which I do "free" but when I installed a 20 tube solar collector on the roof, some kind of protection was needed for me and my assistant because the tiles get sandy and slippery when you walk on them and abrade the surface. I ended up chucking the doubled rope over the ridge and tying a figure 8 in the middle then attaching that to the towbar of the Landy out at the front, which wouldn't be going anywhere. We then walked up the slope of the back and tied in to the two strands of rope. I have to clean out the front gutters soon and will use the same system tied to a tree or very solid post in the back garden. It seems pretty bombproof to me; I lie a folded decorating sheet along the ridge to prevent the rope from abrading.

I don't trust bricks or stones, which are part of a wall having once had the shocking experience of a large stone window lintel coming loose and lurching outwards by a couple of inches, it was at the top of the wall so there was nothing on top of it.  

Thanks for the reply. 

Sounds like a good system but unfortunately would not be feasible in my situation due to the shape of the roof and the lean to extensions. The main roof is pyramid shaped so any rope would slide down and get caught at the bottom of the chimney stacks. When working on the roof itself I go out one of the old style roof windows, create an anchor between two of the roof joists. It is a slate roof so you can only really walk along the leaded gulleys. I then have a couple of roof ladders I can slide along the ridges. I had thought about using this same rope and throwing it over the edges but it would only really give access to a small portion of the house. Additionally we have cast iron box gulleys and I'm sure a rope would damage or be damaged running over these. 

Agree about not liking the idea of anchors into the stonework. whilst the blocks are large and I do not think would dislodge, they are only sandstone and short of going a long way through and putting in a resin fixed bolt I would be wary they would break free. Additionally in order to fix these I would be atop a tall ladder with a SDS drill and long bit. 

Bolts or even just threadable sling holes through 10x4 timbers will be fine if the timber is in good nick and the holes are sensibly placed but be careful drilling them, that's when you're likely to fall!

jk

Yes agree. It is not a job that fills me with joy but had thought if I could get a couple of helpers in to hold the ladder it should be a one off situation and afterwards I would be or at least feel far safer and less exposed. 

Hadn't thought about a hole for a sling but will keep it in mind. Preferably I would want something I could leave. In an ideal world I would like to thread from below either with the rope or a lead piece of paracord but envisage this would be difficult given the height.

Not their intended purpose but half considered thesehttps://www.toolstation.com/shop/Ironmongery/d170/Shed+%26+Gate+Ironmo...

Have used them before both for well gates but also fencing applications and they no doubt would be more than strong enough. 

Or to be slightly more conventional

https://www.abaris.co.uk/prod/anchors/Petzl-Coeur-Stainless-Steel-Hanger-Pl...

When I needed to go up onto my roof to assess some storm damage, a friend came round with his bow and arrow. Fired arrow over the house, trailing a light line. Light line was tied to a climbing rope which was then pulled up over the roof. Climbing rope was tied off to a telegraph pole, so we could safely jumar up the roof from the top of the ladders.  Of course, only useful if you know someone with a bow and arrow!

Surely these days you'd fly it over with a drone?

Giant loop. Bomber

Could you use a clip stick from an upper window?

That was my hope if I got some fixed gear installed. I have the betastick evo ultra but that only extends to around 6m. The highest points of the roof trusses are ~8m according to the laser distance measure.

Most of the walls have window access that I could attempt to clip a rope in from. One wall does not so I suspect I would try to get at one of the corners via the clipstick and a small step ladder. Then when the extension ladder is secured I could go for the apex. 

I'm thinking of going for the petzl hanger plates. My dilemma is how to bolt them in? The hanger comes either on it's own or with an expansion bolt (60mm). Not too keen on an expansion bolt only 60mm in wood so do you think it would be better to buy a larger non-dedicated bolt and go right through with a nut and locking washer on the end?

The petzl hanger is rated at 25kN. No mention of what the bolt is rated at (assume it is). 

Do NOT user an expansion bolt in wood - they're simply not designed for it and holding ability would be guesswork at best, most likely completely unreliable.

Assuming the wood is in OK nick and protected from direct rain I'd use a standard 10mm or 12mm bolt (depending on the size of the hole in your hanger), drilled right through and nutted. 

My concerns exactly about buying the hanger and bolt combo. I always like to over engineer so would opt for the 12mm. The issue is although the hanger is rated at 25kN, would a normal 12mm bolt be appropriate as technically they are not designed for this purposes. The forces would be downwards acting on the bolts neck. Normally they would be used for holding an object but not necessarily the significant downwards shearing force you would get with a fall. 

I'm not a mechanical engineer so couldn't say for sure, but I would expect a decent quality T12 bolt to be massively over-strong for the few-kN load that a fall would most likely generate. Anyone more knowledgeable about these things care to comment?

Don't go into the stonework - a Victorian property will be made with Lime mortar and it's relatively easy to pull a block out.

Bolt through a beam with an SS bolt, washer and nylock nut.

I would either:

bolt through horizontally with a conventional hanger. This puts the hanger in its conventional orientation, and the bolt in shear. There is the option to put a hanger on each end putting the bolt in double-shear (and eliminating twisting in the beam) but this is probably overkill and a pain to equalise.

or,

bolt through vertically with an eye nut (suitably rated) on the bottom end. You would want a nice big washer under the bolt head at the top of the beam, and make sure you can actually clip through the eye.

If you are putting holes through exterior wood then be careful to protect it properly.

Alternatively you could try the Fred Dibnah technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04dGK1_wYA&t=82s

I can't imagine (but nor can I calculate!) that a load will break a 10/12mm steel nut/bolt/washer *before* the wood or roof breaks.

For you on ladder below gutter (i.e. below anchors)...

The load if you fall off the ladder should be pretty modest, it's just a slump or swing onto a tight rope. It's fall factor close to zero, particularly if you have a belayer on the ground keeping you on an tight top rope.

Belayed from the ground with two ropes on two anchors gives redundancy without any real potential of large forces due to adverse angles as a slump onto two tight dynamic ropes would be a very soft catch.

On the roof above the anchors it's much more dynamic...

If you are 2 m above the anchor and the anchor is 8 m up that's a fall factor of 0.4   if you are being *belayed from the ground on 10m of rope.

If you are 2 m above the anchor that's a fall factor of almost 2             if you are on a 2 m DYNAMIC leash to the anchors. It would be pretty dangerous to rely on DIY anchors for high fall factors as that's a bit too much like trad climbing

Overall it's not proper industrial roped access but it is very good compared to the normal DIY practice of badly breaking both arms when falling off a ladder.

As always the Dutch got it right when they built their houses with the front overhanging and a huge beam with a pulley sticking out at the top of the gable. They must have been very keen on urban climbing and centuries before those students did it in Oxford.

Just googled this out of curiosity, and the first result (from Australia) gives 3 classes of bolt - presumably different alloys but it hardly matters because even the weakest class of T12 bolt has a shear strength near the head of a whopping 28kN.

https://www.hi-tensilebolt.com.au/bolt-shear-capacity-metric/

Brilliant guys! Thanks for the help. Petzl hanger plates and 12mm bolts with sprung washers and nylock nuts sound like they will do the job nicely!

Unfortunately I will not have a belay partner during my rooftop escapades. I plan to clip in the top of the ladder and myself (separately) either via a short rope or quickdraws. Any fall would be small so I would envisage 25kN would be more than enough. These hangers would only be used when on a ladder beneath roof line. When actually on the roof which is not frequent, I will be on a fixed length shorter than to the edge of the roof and fixed inside the skylight to the roof joists.

I bust loads of bolts when I´m testing hangers and other stuff, a normal 8.8 grade M10 bolt will let go at about 38kN and a 316 stainless bolt the same.

The stuff to avoid is the cheapo threaded stainless rod you can buy, this breaks at around 8kN.

All of which is irrelevant as the allowed load on a single 10mm bolt in timber is probably only 2kN or so (a wood techy can look this up!). The commercial safety plates are normally held on with maybe 30 screws, not sure there are any through-bolted ones but the rope access guys would know.

On the other hand I´d trust two 12mm through bolts with big washers!

There,s been a thread about anchoring rope to house recently. Can't remember details at moment.

Our house has an unlined roof so it is simple to girth hitch slings round rafters etc in loft.  Clip to wire loop with nut slid down a bit which goes to exterior (try and avoid pressing gutter) where can clip self, ladder etc as required. No bolts required.Lined roofs trickier presumably.

Also possible to set up anchors in rooms eg heavy plank across doorway with rope going out of window.

Edit, Thread was:  Ascending masonry wall. What anchor?