UKC

Was climbing at high neb today and saw there was a horrible burned mess by the end of the causeway.i thought it was tipping, but close it looked like it was the remains of a live in van, and sadder still were a collection of part burned qickdraws and a tiny ( kids?) Pair of rock boots. I assume everyone is ok, but it must heartbreaking for whoever it was

Two german families on holiday with four kids under 5. Both vans broken into, robbed and torched. Absolute disgrace, makes you ashamed to be British.

Jesus. Absolutely disgusting.

Oh thats disgusting

That's properly awful. You kinda don't expect that sort of thing in such a beautiful place, far from the city. Though I had a car broken into once, one evening in the Peak and I lost about £1000 worth of stuff (camera gear etc).

Unbelievable. Anyone know what's happened to the families. Why torch the vans - seems almost(?) racially motivated, though I hope not. As you say, ashamed to be Britsh

Jeez - that's grim. Hope they catch the toerags that did it

Theft of contents I can understand, not that I'm saying for one minute it is acceptable.

Torching the vehicles is even worse,  especially so in such dry conditions. 

Awful stuff, were they out climbing or something?

That makes me very sad and angry.

I suspect it's a combination of racism and wanting to start a really big fire that will be on TV.

I blame Brexit. 

Never seen so many foreign numberplates, thanks to the weak pound they are all coming over here and investing their wages into the UK economy.

(and they are very welcome) 

That's bloody awful. I know they'll be insured and so on, but if you know anything more and think there's anything people can do to help, let us know.

I had a really nice evening climbing with a German couple at Stanage a year or so ago, just randomly got chatting to them. They were lovely people travelling in a van, so hearing this happen, especially with small kids involved makes me very sad and angry.

Do you actually know now, that they were broken in to and fire started deliberately?

I was there while the fire engines and police were attending the scene and waited with the families for several hours to ensure they were sorted for food and bed etc. There was no evidence at that point, that the fire was started deliberately or gear stolen. Has this changed?

The families were out climbing when the fire started. Very sadly they lost everything in two camper vans and have to terminate their holiday. Thankfully they are all safe and had their valuables with them.

They are being put up by a local family.

Yesterday evening the police and fire brigade at the scene pointed out that the fire was possibly started by the magnified SUN REFLECTING in off the rear view mirrors! This is something we should all be aware of esp. with live in vehicles or transit vans, packets/paper on the dash board.....

An idea would be to cover the mirrors....

That is deeply upsetting! Does anyone know what has happened to the families?

What makes you think the culprit was British?

Well done for giving them support.

You're getting a dislike for that.  You've no idea who did it.
Anyway, dickheads don't discriminate about the nationality of whose vans they rob and burn.

Sounds pretty unlikely to me, unless they were using concave shaving mirrors as wing mirrors....and had a load of very flimsy, readily ignitable material piled up at their exact focus.

Loads of batteries and electrics in campervans, can be a problem. Whatever the cause it's still really grim for families involved 

Rob, probably not.  Burn?  I suspect they do.

Dickheads can be racists too.

A fireman said that? Seems pretty unlikely if only for the fact that rear view mirrors are convex, and don't magnify.

The way I read it was more that it should have happened to a foreigner in Britain, than pointing a finger. 

Race hasn't been mentioned so I suppose you are assuming German number plates and are suspected that they've been targeted for having a German vehicle or because the plates aren't English? 

Also, if they were trying to start a big fire, you'd just start a wild fire rather than torch a random vehicle. 

You've got two pretty wild unsubstantiated theories there. 

Well, let's say the odds are approximate 58:7 on them being British what with this being Britain and all.

Yes they did, as I said, I spoke to them, the fire inspector and police officer together after they assessed the damage. They said that it is common for vehicle fires to start that way. Although they could not rule out arson, there was no sign of missing gear.

One thing that was blatantly obvious was the position of the sun which, had been very intense in exactly the spot to reflect in, off the mirrors of both vans.

It is sad that the original post starts rumours, scare mongering conclusion of hate and cruelty!

In actual fact there were many people around, mainly climbers and locals, who saw the fire and went to offer help and support. Some of those offers have been taken up and gratefully appreciated by the families invoked.

Great that so many people showed they care.

Read mountaingoatgirl's response immediately preceding yours.

Those mirrors being plain or convex (not concave) it would be at most as intense, but probably less so, than the sun shining directly in the windows of vehicles facing the other way.  I don't know, perhaps I am missing something but this seems very strange.

Well, regardless how the fire started, this is indeed very encouraging.  Thanks for injecting a bit of optimism into the thread.

Oh I agree totally, we should have the facts before waving the pitchforks around. But I think the mechanism by which a fire is started by sunlight reflecting of a convex mirror requires some explanation. 

I have two unsubstantiated theories, which given mountaingoatgirl's subsequent post may well be wrong.

As for 'wild':

Do we have dickheads who like to start fires? Yes.

Do we have dickheads who'll pick on someone who's different, especially foreigners? Yes.

I suspect a venn diagram of those two groups would be almost circular.

More likely a full, clear plastic water bottle acting as a lens, which a fireman aquaintance warned me about a couple of weeks ago.

I've known the fire service assign fires to various impossible mechanisms (clothes left on hot water radiators - at around 65 degC,  sun shining through flat glass windows etc, spontaneous combustion by materials incapable of self-heating ).  They are not always right, or perhaps prefer to assign an accidental cause, no matter how improbable, than to make the big call of assigning a deliberate one.  And, if there is any possibility of an accidental cause of fire, no matter how unfeasible, I suspect the Police would play along with it, to avoid another crime statistic.

Thanks! Mg’s Comments hadn’t been updated by the time I posted

The passenger mirror is typically convex, therefore spreading the reflected light over a slightly larger area.

The only explanation I can think off is that you have three mirrors (wings and rear) reflecting sunlight on to the same patch of headrest (that would be behind a driver’s head).  One beam of sun is enough to heat dark material to 50+oC.  Possibly three overlapping patches combined with the wider hotbox effect is enough to heat the patch to combustion temperatures.

You would have to have a very fastidious mirror alignment to get this effect, and I’m highly dubious that a three fold concentration of sunlight is enough.

Ah, now I think about it you sometimes see a large fresnel optic on the rear of campervan windows. I don’t know what they are for specifically or what their focal term is, but there’s potential for burning with a lens with such a large area, perhaps from an unexpected diffractive order.

Edit: Ridge’s suggestion of focousing (or caustics) from a water bottle seems more likely; a mystic in Glasgow once lost her flat to a crystal ball started fire in similar circumstances.  

I suspect if you are having to invoke mechanisms that dependent on specific contingencies, the true cause is likely something else (a vastly experienced fire investigator I know would describe it as "billiard ball stacking").

You'd have thought she'd have seen that coming.

I’m just trying to second guess the explanation given - I don’t suggest they are likely.  My first thought on a camper van fire is always “dodgy electrics” but I don’t see any point to speculating here; sorry I should have made it clearer I was going down a tangent.

A circular diagram of xenophobics and arsonists? We'd have a much bigger problem if the vast majority of peole who dislike foreigners and pick on people who are different committed arson. The whole country would constantly be on fire.

Where did you hear this Adam? I was also there on the evening and spoke to the owners. While they clearly suspected it was malicious it didn't sound like the police or fire brigade agreed.

An accident seems the more likely explanation.

No one has mentioned solar panels, there are lots of very suspect kits on the market with inadequate controllers and  wiring.    I speak  from experience  

Nowhere in the Peak (or England) is far from a city, that's the problem and why we have so many fires and so much littering.

Lets say the odds are at least even that some smartarse comes in with anti British sentiment to back up wildly unsubstantiated claims this being UKC and all.

A friend of my wife had a bad fire in her house, the insurance company conducted a forensic enquiry and discovered that a crystal ball on the window sill had set fire to the curtains. 

But in this case I reckon a dodgy battery or solar panel is the most likely explanation.

I don’t know what happened here but I don’t view Stanedge as a safe place for vehicles. I got my car stuck in the snow up there late one Xmas eve..had to walk home. Thought it would be ok until I could arrange a tow. Received a call from the police early Boxing Day saying the car had been vandalised..most of the windows smashed. The road was closed so whoever it was had a 4x4 and went out on Xmas day..!!

Do you mind telling us where you heard this? Like most people on here I was disgusted and upset after reading your post, but on reading later posts it appears that it may well have been an accident. If you were just repeating something you'd heard from an unreliable source then you should really have made that clear in your post, and I also think you would owe us all an apology. This is exactly the sort of fear and outrage generating fake news that Facebook gets a bad name for.

I presumed the vans would have been next to each other for an accidental fire in one to spread to the next, but the pictures show them parked some distance apart on the side of the road. There are local groups sharing a facebook thread from a cycling club who had members who were there and helped out. The German families seems to have been really well taken care of locally - accommodation, people finding spare clothes for everyone, getting them to the airport etc. which is great, but that original post described a robbery and arson like Adam did. So maybe it was an accident but at least people who were there helping the unfortunate families understood it was deliberate.

I dont think the person posting owes anyone an apology, what a strange comment to make. They posted in the genuine belief that that was what had happened, somebody else came on who had access to more information and was able to clarify and give an alternative explanation. I really dont understand your issue.

I have a real problem with this sort of thing, please let me try and explain why.

The post I referred to has received lots of likes. Lots of people have obviously read that far and no further. They now believe that there are racially motivated scumbags torching vans at Stanage. This is the sort of thing the Daily Mail does, each individual post is a minor thing, but over time reading this sort of thing creates a feeling of fear, suspicion and hate in people. It has a corrosive effect on society. It is not acceptable to post unsubstantiated rumours that cause distress without making it clear that they are only unsubstantiated rumours.

Broken into, robbed and set on fire; and yet there were burnt quickdraws and rock boots.

I obviously can't point any fingers or say why the vans were burnt, but if they robbed the vans first, why leave quickdraws behind?

Because they're not climbers, I would think.

Pictures?

Or lots of people read that far when the thread only went that far, most will later revisit the thread and read further. mg's reply is already rapidly catching up in "likes".

Roughly how far apart were the vans when the fire started?

There's a picture of it on Steven Bunting's facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/steven.bunting.58

The number of likes is still increasing on the post, so either people are not reading further, or are liking it anyway.

That's horrible. I'm glad nobody was hurt, and I hope the families are getting the help they need.

I wasn't there, but from the photos the vans look to be about 20ft apart. Its hard to see how a fire could spread from one vehicle to the other over that distance. And both vehicles igniting independently seems very unlikely.

Yes, it seems things are not as cut and dried as were presented to me. Trustworthy friends of mine were first on the scene and I took their info as correct. So apologies for that. It seems that the police and fire have been careful not to immediately say arson but they haven't come to any definitive conclusions either.

In reply to Ex Poster 666:

It doesn't matter who did it. The fact is that this is my local area and I've been proud both to recommend it to others and to show many foreigners around. That parked vehicles might get torched in such a lovely place is shameful to me - regardless of where the victims or perps come from.

Oh for Petes sake, It's an individual on a forum, not the mighty power of the press. They saw something which concerned them and posted about it. It may still turn out to be true...we don't know yet. Nobody on this forum needs to apologise to anyone else. It's been discussed, that's what forums do. jeez.

Thanks for the apology, I completely understand you were just relaying information in good faith. It does appear to look very dodgy, I admit.

Does anyone have contact details for offers of any help the families might still need?

Having experienced a break-in to our own van while abroad, I know how distressing this must be (regardless of whether it's deliberate or accidental) and would like to help if possible.

Same with a van and car abandoned in the snow on the Snake pass a couple of years ago. Both trashed and gutted.

What time did the fire start? 20ft apart would allow fire to spread from one van to the other, just due to the intense heat, but surely there were other vehicles also parked nearby at the time?

I was on top of High Neb at the time. I became aware of it with an explosion around 6:30 / 7:00pm and I could then see lots of black smoke. I couldn't see the actual vans due to the plantation by the road - but I could see a raging fire through the trees. I didn't notice any smoke before that explosion. The fire seemed to spread westwards fairly quickly which is the way the wind was blowing and I guess was the second van catching - though as I say, I was quite far away and viewing through the trees. There were quite a few more explosions over the next 15 min or so. By the time I was off belay and had run down, the fire service were there and it was under control. The only other vehicles parked up were in the little car park.

Thank you for the update Adam. From that facebook link I can see where you were coming from but like Hooo, I'm twitchy about rumours that spread fear and anger. If it was deliberate then I share your sentiments entirely but for now I prefer the more optimistic rationale of an accident.

I was very impressed by the speed of response from the fire service - well done to whoever called them. I could already hear the sirens by the time I got to my phone.

Also a huge well done to those who helped out the owners. I thoughtlessly went back to my climbing and by the time I came down later they were just waiting for the AA and had a place to stay arranged.

In reply to toad:

I had parked my truck up from the two converted vans and arrived back just as the fire brigade was damping down and clearing the road. As the female climber has posted there was no suggestion from either the police or the fire service that this was deliberate or that the vehicles had been broken into. If the latter had happened, it seemed little had been taken as the burned remains of many possessions were clearly visible. The owners of the vehicles were being comforted and supported by passers by and were offered room for a night or more in Bramford. Rather than ashamed, I took pride in the way people responded to those in distress. As Dominic says thefts and break ins are common at Stanage. 

One thing I did notice that seemed odd Was that the tarmac between the two vehicles, a distance of 20 feet maybe, seemed untouched by fire. But that could just be me not being observant. 

What is sad is how people are so quick to jump to conclusions, to think the worst, and cry racist at every opportunity. 

The back door of the van closest to the camera at first sight appears to have been jemmied open, but I suppose, on further reflection, that that could have been caused by a Calor gas canister blowing up ? ?

I noticed this too, but of course from the photo, though from the angle it was taken you can't see exactly between the vans. However, the grass is completely scorched around the vans but not between those two scorched areas. If the fire was intense enough to transmit between them it would surely scorch all that grass.

It looks to me as if there is a continual narrow line of burnt grass on the verge on the left between the two vehicles, which suggests that burning oil/petrol spread down the slope towards the other vehicle.

Just speculating, but I wonder whether that was the fire brigade popping it open to check there was no one inside.

She might've thought it possible, but just brushed it off as a medium risk.

It's possible for fire to spread by radiative heat transfer, so the grass being untouched does not necessarily rule out that a fire spread from one vehicle to the other. That said I'm not an expert in the field so I don't know what kind of temperatures would be necessary for this to occur, or how common it is in practice.

You've called him a smart arse for pointing out that they're most likely to be British, because of this being Britain?

As is usual with these forums people jump to the worst possible conclusions, normally blaming Brexit, Britain or British people for the woes of the World, which is something you have been guilty of on more than one occasion. Normally this anti British sentiment is delivered by supposed left wing momentum supporting activists who think the World owes them a living and can often be heard shouting "I've got rights" despite having done f*ck all to earn them.

Edit: Saying that it's statistically most likely to be a British person, because this is Britain, can be an observation which exists without it needing to be part of any kind of self hating for being British mindset.

Ignoring the contentious part of your post, a small matter of objective fact for you:

If one has to earn them, they aren't rights.  It's privileges you're thinking of.

I vaguely remember tossing a fag end away at High Neb last week...

Most of the rights people enjoy today were earned by our forebears, far too many of whom paid the ultimate sacrifice. So these rights were earned; often in the most dire of circumstances. 

No they're thieves, climbing gear being relativity high value and easy to get rid of, would be of no interest at all, I suppose.

Don't you do a lot of tossing at High Neb?

I think we can guess which side of history you would have been on if you had been around when those rights were being earned.

Aren't any people who talk/protest/lobby/other about how important it is for these rights to be respected and maintained, doing something (albeit small) towards us continuing to have them?

In your eyes what should UK citizens be doing to be worthy of whichever human rights, a certain amount of hours work to pay tax into society, or something else? I've always understood human rights to be birth rights in nature, something which ideally all humans should have. Human rights can seem to have mutual respect at their core, I sometimes think.

That's got me thinking now, about the heat which can happen in cars and vans, and the 'keep out of direct sunlight' instructions with batteries and electrical things. It might seem to be that the best plan could be to have reflective shades for any windows.

Enlighten me why don't you.

That you might have been tempted by the Britisches Freikorps? Funky cap badges and all that.

But of course, we're only joshing. That's the British sense of humour isn't it old fruit?

Tinkerty tonk and down with the Nazis (for both Wittertainees and fans of the Queen Mum)!

I assumed he was calling me a Nazi. But the Nazis were national socialists werent they so he's calling me a socialist? Surely not!! 

To be honest, I was thinking more of those who opposed social change, be that the abolishion of slavery, widening of the franchise, equal pay or the decriminalisation of homosexuality. You know the slow march towards a modern society with a belief in universal human rights. This is the internet, Nazis are out of bounds, plus it start tedious bollocks about Nazis being socialists.

Depending on how vigorous the tossing was, could this have generated enough heat, through friction, to have caused combustion of other objects in the vicinity.

My van has been broken into twice, and both times they've taken electronic goods and musical instruments, and ignored all the climbing gear. Thieves generally don't like specialist gear unless they're stealing to order.

I'd just like to smugly point out that I'm a proud "supposed left wing momentum supporting activists who think the World owes them a living and can often be heard shouting "I've got rights" despite having done f*ck all to earn them.", and I managed to raise the point that we shouldn't jump to the worst conclusions without being abusive to anyone.

I take your point. In truth this whole thread has taken a wrong turn mainly due to people spouting bollocks about being ashamed to be British etc etc.  Shit happens and it doesn't only happen in Britain. I'm sure there are countless anecdotes of Brits meeting misfortune, theft, bodily harm etc whilst on holiday in foreign parts. I would guess the Germans aren't ashamed to be German or the French ashamed to be French just because this misfortune happened to take place to a foreigner in their home country. 

What about being ashamed of people who can’t wait to be ashamed about being British because of an unverified past event where some people may just have being people, who are the same the world over?

On the contrary... Some friends of mine had their camper van robbed while they were in a foreign country. Some locals were extremely helpful and put them up, lending them cash and helping to arrange replacement passports etc . My friends were struck by the fact that their hosts were obviously ashamed that this had taken place in their country and by the actions of their compatriots. 

I think it's a natural reaction to feel ashamed if a visitor is attacked while in "your" home. So, once you make the dubious assumption that this event was malicious, it's a pretty reasonable step to assume it was carried out by locals and therefore feel ashamed of your fellow people.

Wasn't it more a case of people wanting the perpetrators to be British and in doing so trying to prove that Britain is currently full of hate aimed at foreigners?  

Ah, possibly. I missed that bit. In that case you guys have a point. I agree that there have been some incidents where British people have been a bit quick to assume a racist motive.

It's one thing to be ashamed of the actions of a few mindless idiots which lets not forget exist aplenty in every country.

It's quite another to feel ashamed of your nationality because of said mindless idiots. 

That’s how it appeared to me. So glad we have due process. One of the many reasons England such an attractive place for migrants. 

insurance job??

Vehicle fires are reportedly rarely "insurance jobs" - as the cover tends to be for the used value, rather than "new for old" like most household policies.

is that true for holiday ins covering vehicles?

Oh I don't know, it can be very effective sometimes, look at the Brexit vote for example.

Is mentioning Brexit in such a fashion similar to Godwin's Law?

Asking neutrally, has anybody mentioned something along the lines of a current trend and the like to make you think that?

Bloody hell Timmd, you've been continuously posting links to such incidents for the last eighteen months or so!  

On this thread, I mean...

Two families mid-holiday with kids in tears, toys burnt etc? No.

any idea what happened?

As you say, hope everyone is ok, both physically and mentally after that - cant have been nice for them.

There's a photo and message from the two families on this community page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/147086772099736/