UKC

Can anybody shed any light on the difference between VS 5a and HVS 4c?

Is a HVS 4c just a very strenuous VS? And a VS 5a is just a delicate and maybe bold VS? 

Cheers

I'd expect HVS 4c to be rather thinly protected, and VS 5a to be a well-protected hard move.

T.

HVS 4c will have easier climbing than the VS 5a but less protection.

VS 5a means there is one hard move, maybe by a peg. HVS 4c means a mostly unprotected pitch, where a fall could probably kill you. It is important to note the difference before you set off. 

Opposite way round. A HVS 4c is likely to either involve quite a bit of 4c with reasonable gear (potentially poorly protected sections of 4b and easier however), or bold/ loose 4c. You can usually tell what it will be like from the ground.

VS 5a should indicate a VS with a small amount of 5a on it with ace gear, often when the crux is really low this grade is used (Africa Route (VS 5a) at Sennen comes to mind), however you need to bear in mind the landing. Personally I disagree with this school of thought on grading, however this is related to having broken/ sprained my ankles/ heels various times over the years and not wanting to trash them further!

Agree with all over the above but would add that on a VS 5a the 5a section ought to be short-lived and well-protected but that does not mean that the entire route is well-protected. Gear on  4b/c sections may still be a bit sketchy so you still need to keep your wits about you.

It's been upgraded now, and the description mentions more pegs than I remember, but Central Buttress (E1 5a) was graded HVS 4c when I did it and is the route that always comes first to my mind at that grade.  I was just breaking into HVS routes when I led the first pitch, 70 feet of climbing with my last piece of gear at 30 feet.  I was so dry-mouthed with adrenalin when I got to the belay that it took me a good while before I could shout down to my partner.

That taught me all I needed to know about HVS 4c as a grade.

T.

Great post.

Mick

Pure pish. HVS 4c doesnt mean you'll die if you fall off. +/- 1 tech grade on the standard adjective grades doesnt equal certain death.

Alarm bells would ring for -2 tech grades something like E1 4c e.g. Californian Arete. VS 4b doesnt mean death from a fall and neither does HVS 4c. It could mean there is less gear than a normal VS or it could mean that every move is 4c so its justifiably harder than a VS 4c which may only have 1/2 4c moves.

Central Buttress was a scary VS in 1969. I have always been rather useless on limestone and found it very hard for the grade, and protested to some of the Avon regulars that I thought it should be HVS and they would have none of it.

I have climbed HVs 4c routes that may as well have been soloed. Unless I missed the gear. So, I would have died if I had fallen off. So, more like experience of dodgy routes rather than pure pish. 

Where are there well protected HVS 4c routes? I think Swanage might have some like that but I've not climbed there. I have climbed at around that grade for 25 years, from Lands End to Northern Scotland and I'm struggling to think of well protected ones. More likely to be given to basically unprotected slabs like Sunset.

I think it was still VS when I climbed it in the mid/late 70s. Put me of Avon for a while until I was convinced by friends that it wasn't typical

I remember the gear being acceptable on a few hvs 4c namely-

Jackdaw Groove (HVS 4c) (Probably really only vs)

Holly Tree Direct (HVS 5a)

The Snake (HVS 4c)

An HVS 4c could be, as described above, a 4c with poor or spaced protection. It could also be an HVS 5a, which for some reason is graded 4c. E.g. Klute at Wyndcliffe.

A VS 5a could be, as described above, a climb with a well-protected 5a crux where you can safely take a lead fall. E.g. Step Ladder Crack at Stanage. Or, it could be a climb where it's assumed you have a spotter or bouldering mat or are not particularly worried about a broken ankle. E.g. High Neb Buttress (alternative start) at Stanage.

In my opinion with both these grades you should take a good look at the specific climb to see what you're getting into.

Dream of white horses?

Cod (HVS 4c)

This is solid HVS with good gear, 4c seems right for the moves it’s just that the second half hangs over the sea in a great position.

Get on it and enjoy, potentially one of the best photo ops for any climb in south Devon at the top.

cheers Chris

VS 5a Well protected but hard I.e. Lorraine (VS 5a)

HVS 4c Poorly protected VS climbing I.e Sunset Slab (HVS 4b)

But there are anomalies like: Finale Groove (HVS 4c)

Good holds and gear, a VS in an HVS setting!

Reading the guide book description will help you see what your particular route is.

The grades may well reflect those parameters, but they might not, because there are other possibilities. A well-protected route with the tech grade of 4c may still merit HVS because the climbing is sustained; i.e. there are a lot of 4c moves.

To draw conclusions as specific as those you mention, you need to take into account both the grade and information from a route description.

Peak lime, Venery (HVS 4c) and Tom Cat (HVS 4c) come to mind. Both well protected but sustained cracks.

Tom Cat feels like a gritstone crack made out of limestone.

I think people are getting confused with sunset slab being HVS 4b NOT 4c. Basically, don't take what people say in this thread as gospel. Old guide books often chuck these grades in to signify something, but the exact thing they're trying to signify may not become obvious until after you've climbed the route...

For me, Retroversion (HVS 5a) at stanage got HVS 4c in my guide (now upgraded on UKC) and I found it to have a tricky exposed move. Similar with McPlumb Wall (HVS 4c) at wildcat.

However, if you think every VS 5a will be well protected, be careful! When I climbed Fumf (VS 5a) at rivelin it was given VS 5a, and has quite tricky moves at a height you wouldn't want to deck from! Then there's Don't Birch the Doc (VS 5a) a similarly run out affair! In both these instances, the run out nature you'd expect from HVS 4c seems to also apply to VS 5a and made me see the grade as pretty much interchangeable!

There is an argument that routes like you've suggested are just badly graded though. I've also seen some short grit routes that get VS 5a and are essentially highballs. Agree they are routes you don't want to fall off! 

Gordon, I had the same kind of arguments with people in the Mournes in the 1970s. Some dire undergrading (and this was pre-cams, where falling off was often a really bad idea). Same scenario in Yorkshire, where Malham HVS (e.g. Carnage) was comparable with what we'd now term Welsh E2. I gather your brother John protested in Yorkshire and got nowhere.

Got hit by a downpour on Central Buttress. An 'interesting' experience...

Mick

The 4c/5a is a technical grade and in theory only one is correct for the route, as either has a 5c move in it or it doesn't.

The problem is that the adjective grade (VS or HVS) is representing more than one thing. One thing it represents in the level of protection, but it also covers how strenuous the route is and the competence that might be needed to climb it.

So a few metres of 4c within a mainly 4b technical grade route might be VS where as 30 metres of 4c could get an HVS grade (it's really long and hard work).

However a few metres of 4c within a mainly 4b technical grade route where the crux is poorly protected could also get an HVS.

And you don't really know which of these situations applies without reading the guide book, UKC comments, looking at the route or climbing it!

Sunset Slab HVS 4c at Froggett awaits

Does it not get HVS 4b? BTW, I believe it used to get VS 4b, but after a few serious accidents got upgraded.

Some people objected to the upgrade, but I think it describes the reality of the route very well. It shows how the British dual system of grading can tell you so much that, say, the American and Australian systems cannot.

You are right I stand corrected. Just checked

You might find this short essay useful

http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/17AppendixGrades.htm

HVS 4c means the climb is harder than VS 4c.  That can be because it is not well protected (often the case with gritstone HVS 4c) or it can equally be harder because it is more sustained than VS 4c (which is sometimes the case at places like Swanage, Quality Street being a perfect example of a very well protected HVS 4c).   You need to read the guidebook or look at the route.

VS 5a just means there isn't much 5a on the route and it is probably well protected.

I would say, read the guidebook and look at the route.

For me, the most important thing is looking at the route. Sure, many of the horrible sandbags of yore have been upgraded. I want to know the grade but I also want to make up my own mind. There are lots of grades with which I disagree. Sun on polished rock makes a mockery of grades.

We all have strengths and weaknesses. I'm relatively good at crimps, cracks and smearing, relatively poor at slopers, slate and sandstone. The grading can't take this into account.

Trying to reduce routes to grades is making a fundamental error.

Mick

P.S. I know you know all this, Graham, just putting it on the thread.

If they're on different crags there could be no real difference or a huge difference. On the same well travelled crag expect the VS to have climbing you're familiar with compared to other VS's but with a short tricky bit or a trick move in a safe/protectable position either straight off the floor or at good gear. Bear in mind the VS could still be bold elsewhere but the bold bit will be much easier than 5a, here guidebook description and judgement come into play as the safe 5a bit masks that. The HVS could be sustained/physical 4c climbing or it could be 4c moves in bold position(s) or it could be a bit loose, the grade would fit all of those possibilities (or combinations thereof) as compared with a more typical HVS 5a.

jk

The most scared I got last year was on an HVS 4b.  I should have known!

Pulling off "hand holds" 5m above dodgy gear while the rock slowly crumbled away around my feet...  It's amazing how inventive you can get when you need an escape route isn't it?

E1 4a is going to be even more exciting - tons of loose rock crashing down and no protection whatsoever - no kidding that is exactly my kind of climb and I always really look forward to the experience

Another culm coast enthusiast?

Sounds like it should be XS

Dead right. And all similar climbing

I've just done (headpoint) an E4 5b recently  (well latest guide gives it E4, even if ukc doesn't  )

...can anyone guess what that is without checking?

Edit: i actually think E4 5a is fair for an onsight, if it was clean, making -3 expected tech grades below typical 

I don't think I have ever come across an HVS 4c that was not poorly protected, loads of 4c on a pitch still tends to be VS. I'm sure it's theoretically possible, so have you got any examples of this, I'd be keen to try such a route!

All contributed upthread:

Venery (HVS 4c)Tom Cat (HVS 4c)Cod (HVS 4c)Finale Groove (HVS 4c)Holly Tree Direct (HVS 5a)Jackdaw Grooves (VS 4b)

Edit to remove wrong links

A Dream of White Horses (HVS 4c)The Snake (HVS 4c)

Also

When I did Holly Tree Direct in 1971, I probably found it quite hard for the grade (logbook comment: 'Main pitch good and steep') but there's no mention of thinking it should be HVS, whereas Bilberry Buttress, done a few days before, I definitely found harder ('I thought crux bulge quite hard for V.S. (5A?)')

I presume it's a slab in a quarry; either something in Fairy Caves or that one in Leicestershire that you can no longer see from the M1 whose name escapes me.

Slabby, not a quarry.

Dream of White Horses, to me, was [1] well protected, [2] correctly graded as 4c, [3] correctly graded as HVS because of the seriousness of the situation and positions [a] on Wen Slab as a whole and [b] on the last pitch in particular

Yes it's got serious positions, but it's not really poorly protected, which was what was asked for

Agree though, worth hvs for feeling serious 

I can't think of any examples at the grade, but VS 4b is a reasonably common grade on, for example, sustained grit cracks which have as much protection as you can carry. Greeny Crack (VS 4b), Inverted V (VS 4b), etc.

But both of these, especially the latter, have always been regarded - for decades - as "Mild VS". Inverted V has become a slightly harder and better route since all the old chockstones have been taken/or have fallen out - but that has been more than compensated for by modern gear and sticky boots. 

My point was that they're not VS by virtue of being poorly-protected - or at least not with modern gear as you say. Actually as I type this post, I wonder how many routes of such grades went from being poorly-protected to lace-able with the invention of cams, particularly on grit. It's just occurred to me that, having began climbing long after the major advances in protection, I might be missing a historical aspect to the grades.

Just about everything on grit, well certainly VS and below, became massively tamed by modern pro. (Many second-rate modern climbers go along with this and wear huge 'skirts' of pro - mostly camming devices - on every single route.)

Hargreaves is a classic example.

Mick

I thought Hargreaves was ok with some judiciously placed hexes - required skill. I'm sure that's how I must have first done it in the 70s.

I'll have to check my log.

Yes, gone up to VS (correctly) and now completely safe/more than adequately protected. Correct grade before modern pro would (now) be E1 4c. In the 60s and 70s I simply didn't contemplate trying it; I was too scared of it (too many deaths). We used to walk past the bottom, while discussing the view or the distant clouds or something, until we got to the route we wanted to do.

Oh dear my memory is obviously not what it used to be

Just looked in my log and the first time I did Black Slab was by MacLeod's Variation - solo in 77 (playing follow my leader behind a much better climber). Soloed that again in 79 and then soloed Hargreaves Direct in 82; but that was immediately after top roping Whillans Pendulum so presumably I'd effectively top roped HD.

Then seconded it and soloed it a few times before first leading it in 97. I suspect I had a few friends by then

I think I shall have to go back and lead it again and see what non camming pro I can get in. No longer have my hex 10 though.

I think I'll have to reserve judgement on whether pre-friends should be E1 4c or HVS 4c until I've done it again.

In the 70s Hargreaves Direct was given VS(-) in the green Stanage guide and MacLeod's Variation got S(+). Paul Nunn gave MV S 4a (might have been HS 4a).

But loads of other routes in those guides were undergraded by today's grading standards.

I remember someone (Tony from Alpine Sports in Brighton) telling me how he was soloing Hargreaves but fell off from one of the breaks. He somehow slid down and stopped himself two breaks lower down - brown trouser moment I think. He then proceeded to downclimb all the way to the Scotsman's for some liquid reassurance

The HVS is the harder route, the VS has the harder move,

Chris

Brilliantly summed up in just 12 words.

In a naughty moment I'm tempted to say, how can an easier route have a harder move, but I won't

The three key words are 'judiciously' and 'required skill'. Back in the days before people carried an array of cams, I saw several leaders in extremis, placing hexes which would never have held them. A horrifying sight.

Mick

I'm surprised they even stayed in.

Unless one can't climb 5a  

They just balanced in the top cracks, looking as though they could indeed have fallen out. Luckily, in each case, they gave a psychological boost and the leaders wobbled to safety.

I used to enjoy soloing in this area but learned to stay well away if someone was leading this route. I'm guessing lots of cams have made things much safer.

Mick

If my memory is correct, there is actually one quite small but good wire at the critical point about a 1/3 of the way up. Then, I think higher up, a least two small Friends. But it's a v long time since I've done it.

Quality Street (HVS 4c)

Another one at Swanage.  gear is fine, it's just burly.

Just out of curiosity - we've got VS 5b's, Saul at Burbage for instance, but is there an agreed on E1 4c anywhere? Chalk?!

California Arete is the famous one: Californian Arete (E1 4c) 

Thanks jonnie, sounds as horrific as I'd been hoping for!

I seem to remember using the old trick of hexes in opposition in the horizontal cracks. Took about half an hour to set up, mind.

A friend of mine, who was a skint student without any cams at the time, lead Hargreaves using that method in the mid noughties.

Good skills!

Mick

Ed Drummond's guidebook of 1972 gave it a grade of HVS 4c, the same as great central route whereas the appalling Desperation got VS 4c.

I did a fine example of a VS 5a last night: The Grazer (VS 5a) at Burbage North. Typical Burbage in that its about 25 ft high and will still beat the crap out of you. 15 ft is a V Diff slab with a crack up it, then you get to break with a natural thread, bomber nuts and cams etc. The crack carries on up through an overhang above you, through a niche and that's the top.

You can stuff cams in the crack so have overhead protection and "all" you have to do is pull over the overhang with a choice of a jug, a pebble crimp or solid handjams at the back of the niche. I went up and down, up and down, swearing, sweating, sweating insect repellent into my eyes, getting midges up my nose, foot out left, foot out right, etc etc. nothing working. The jams are so good its quite hard to fall off but also desperate to move up. I eventually came back down the to ground and had a little word with myself/rest before going back up for round 2.

I eventually pulled one jam higher into the niche, but totally lost sight of my feet below the overlap and couldn't find the obvious foothold. Instead I ended up jamming a knee in - this sort of worked for a moment, but of course I was wearing shorts with the obvious results of a bloody knee. I tried to jam higher still but when I pulled onto it couldn't move up - of course my "knee scum" was also jamming my rope. Some desperate knee shuffling (which led to the second knee graze) freed the rope, and I managed to stand in the niche, only to repeat the whole knee-rope jam but with my foot instead. This was all accompanied by the soundtrack of my belayer pissing himself laughing and my whimpers and hyper ventilation.

I pulled over the top, had a little cry, brought Dave up then realised that 25 ft had used up my entire hour climbing time at the crag and I now had to jog back to the car to go and pick my kid up from Scouts! To paraphrase Trump, such a display of mountaineering skill has not not been seen in a long time.

But anyway, classic VS 5a. Go try it.

You wore shorts for a route called The Grazer. Hmm, slight lack of judgement before setting off I think

Fun route isn't it.

Yes, sorry about that, but it was very entertaining.  

To be fair, it's bloody awkward and I briefly employed a kneejam for the first time anywhere other than Ramshaw.

It was only the last in a long series of badly made choices Michael! But probably up there with doing no warm up at all beyond the stroll along there from the bridge.

But a routes a route, and a tick in the logbook is a tick in the logbook (although after walking through the bracken in my shorts, I'm worried about ticks in other places!).

I had about 17 runners in by that point, so I think laughing at me was a perfectly acceptable response to my abysmal performance.

No video, shame. Would probably be far more entertaining than most climbing videos.

Trust me - we've all been there - and will be again! If you want to fill it with gear, then fill it. The one you give a chance to bite you in the bum is the one that tears out a big chunk of you. Don't let it.

I was tempted to recommend The Grogan but won't. Am guessing you can also fill it but it's decidedly uphill.

Didn't The Dawes note that really grit's all one big hold - which we lamentably struggle to hold. T'was ever thus.

Mick

Shame - there's a perfect hex 10 placement to protect the crux.  I soled this on sight many years ago, having fallen for the 'there's no gear' line.  But since then I've done it on trad (non-camming device) gear a few times - wires at the bottom and that crux hex.