Two friends planning a (for them) big excursion into the hills, asked for advice on what to carry in their rucksack.
One "exalted" expert came back with a long list of things, amongst which were to carry extra pair of socks within rucksack
Someone else then queried a lot of the list, including the socks - why would you need to carry spare socks, the route is all on dry rock, no bogs/marshes to cross and also, when have you ever stopped, mid walk, changed socks and carried on?
The spat this caused is quite enjoyable to behold, albeit leaving my two friends somewhat confused as to what to carry - how do they filter out the essentials from the "Ive read it in a book so it must all be carried" type advice - what would you carry for a walk up Ben Nevis this week?
I have a 70s era book that among other things insists that salt is essential to all mountaineering endeavours, and advocates turning back if maps or salt are forgotten.
It also includes several long diatribes about the dangers of climbing or scrambling in trousers and the superiority of breeches.
I was considering creating a trolling account purely for the purposes of responding to questions with its "wisdom" but thought better of it.
> I have a 70s era book that among other things insists that salt is essential to all mountaineering endeavours, and advocates turning back if maps or salt are forgotten.
> It also includes several long diatribes about the dangers of climbing or scrambling in trousers and the superiority of breeches.
Never worn breeches but I do seem to recollect taking salt tablets with me first few times to the Alps to get over cramp - now I do less and take more water
I think some of the advice my friends received could well have been gleamed from your book! In fact, looking again at the list of "essentials" there is mention of Kendal Mint Cake ffs!
Assuming this is a summer day trip on a non-technical route, in addition to what I am wearing...
Map and compass
Headtorch
Spare thermal top
Waterproof layer
Water, 1-2l depending on what I expect to find on the route
Adequate food for the day
Small emergency kit (first aid essentials (i.e., compeed), phone, shelter)
In most cases I would probably also take a camera and a hat. Obviously in winter or on more technical routes the list becomes longer. I usually take spare socks on a multiday hike, but on a day trip I will just suck it up if my feet get wet.
In the 80s, I planned to take my Dad to climb the Moine.
He was a very trad hiker, always carried two of everything. The night before, he packed his rucksack, and when I checked it I could hardly lift it.
When I'd chucked everything out, except a cagoule and gloves, he moaned there was nothing to carry, so I gave him two french sticks, some cheese and a bottle of wine.
> Two friends planning a (for them) big excursion into the hills
What duration? I'd never pack a spare pair of socks for a day walk but I almost always do for a multi-day trip. For backpacking outside of winter, when I also take spare gloves, socks are the only bit of kit I duplicate.
> ... what would you carry for a walk up Ben Nevis this week?
In this weather and heat, probably just a two litre bottle of water.
For a walk up Ben Nevis this week, I might throw in a spare pair of socks (I have hyperhidrosis which is not fun and if I don't look after my feet really carefully I end up with blisters). I'd certainly let my feet out on longer rests and let them breathe!
Socks can also double up as a pair of mittens in extremis
I take spare socks for a local walk in England. Never go without them.
In this heat and more importantly humidity I’d be travelling light - hiking sandals, water, packamack and a couple of Mars bars on my belt. No rucksack.
> Someone else then queried a lot of the list, including the socks - why would you need to carry spare socks, the route is all on dry rock, no bogs/marshes to cross and also, when have you ever stopped, mid walk, changed socks and carried on?
Having generally very warm feet, I appreciate when I do remember to bring spare socks, and can change mid-walk into a nice fresh fluffy pair. This is most often of value to me on very hot days. It's probably a sign of a larger problem that I have the wrong kinds of socks and/or footwear, but that's a whole other question.
Historically, I have taken the same view as yourself; that it's not necessary to have a spare pair on dry trips. Having more recently got into the habit of being able to change socks on long hot days in the hills, it's something I quite look forwards to now.
Waterproof trousers top my personal list of an often-recommended item which I almost never use. I own a pair which I now use solely for satisfying mandatory kit requirements for some races. They (various pairs) have travelled far and wide, through all kinds of wild conditions over decades, 99% of the time in the rucksack.
The 1% when I have put them on it's been because: 'Oh well, it's going to rain quite heavily, I've lugged these here, may as well use them'. I was always then less comfortable with them on than I was before, so gradually used them less and less. The vast majority of time I now just don't bring them at all on trips. I do use them anywhere where I'm going to be standing around for ages in the rain (marshalling etc.). For being caught out by accident or injury I have a bivi bag. I'd be much more hesitant to leave without that than the despised waterproof trousers.
As far as the socks go, for a walk of any great duration I'd advocate a change to help avoid blisters. On the Welsh 3000's I put on fresh socks for each section and remained free of hot spots, let alone blisters.
According to my 1940s: Climbing in Britain by JEQ Barford (BMC) the wearing of shorts is controversial and 'it should be emphasized that shorts should never be worn in winter' due to many deaths due to this cause
Adidas tourists on our mountains are part of a long tradition
> I take spare socks for a local walk in England. Never go without them.
> In this heat and more importantly humidity I’d be travelling light - hiking sandals, water, packamack and a couple of Mars bars on my belt. No rucksack.
Socks and sandals?
Back in the rather hot summer of 1976 I attended a four week Outward Bound course were the wearing of short trousers was forbidden.
You could spot the other members of the course from a mile away as they were the only ones still wearing their long, blue, fibre pile Helly Hansen trousers.
> Socks and sandals?
You’d better believe it. Otherwise when it’s dry and dusty I get black filth down the edges of my big toe nails that’s hard to clear out...
Overshare?
Everyone seems to have forgotten the essential one of putting rocks into your mates sack as soon as feasibly possible and then taking them back out just before they realise what you have done.
Managed to get a fairly sizable rock into a mate's rucksack in Snowdonia before setting off. The shout at lunchtime when he found it was quite something.
Or can be worn outside the boots of course for extra adhesion on the slippery verticals
I remember on a DofE planning evening for a weekend expedition, the instructor was reeling off a list of things, all pointless, that would make life easier and more pleasant, adding at the end of each item "weighs nothing" - didn't seem to like me pointing out that several "weighs nothings" add up to a "weighs something"!
I did read a book once that described people staggering along with huge rucsacs full of light weight gear...
> What duration? I'd never pack a spare pair of socks for a day walk but I almost always do for a multi-day trip. For backpacking outside of winter, when I also take spare gloves, socks are the only bit of kit I duplicate.
Yes, the OP doesn't say whether this is for a day walk or a multi day walk. Like you I wouldn't take spare socks for a day trip but would take at least one spare pair of socks, possibly even two spare pairs for a multi day trip, because keeping your feet free from discomfort is vital. The socks can get wet from sweat, streams, rain etc and sod's law I sometimes find that I get holes in the toes over a long day which leads to discomfort, even blisters.
In winter spare socks can also double up as spare gloves if you lose a glove or get wet gloves.
I agree with kathrync's list although I would take a minimum of 2 litres of water, even 3 litres in hot weather having experienced kidney colic triggered by de-hydration.
> I agree with kathrync's list although I would take a minimum of 2 litres of water, even 3 litres in hot weather having experienced kidney colic triggered by de-hydration.
I am generally in Scotland where I can take a litre bottle and fill it up readily with drinkable water almost any time I like. If I am less confident about the potability of the water, or a map inspection indicates that it might not be readily available then I will of course take more...
The sock debate obscures the more significant point: why are these people being given "advice" in the first place?
The joy and value of a day out walking is its simplicity, and the independence and tranquility that comes with lighting out for the territories. The internet and the hills these days are drowning with self-proclaimed experts! Buy these shoes, carry this device, oh, you're not going like that are you? You can't take out a map on the fell without someone interfering: "Are you lost? Where are you going? Have you got a compass?"
All the people who think walking involves "expertise" - get in the sea! Viva those who get out in trainers and a pair of shorts. It's the bloody UK - not the Alps! The day the experts own the hills is the day we should just go ahead and bloody concrete over them, because whatever special quality they had will be utterly shattered.
When I started my lifetime of rambling, there was no such thing as 'lightweight gear', and most things were heavy wool, and as your exalted expert would have it, spares of everything were the done thing. Over the years, it became apparent that most spares remained at the bottom of one's rucksack, never to see the light of day. As my rambling rambled, as it were, my stock of spares reduced and reduced. A spare of socks would certainly not make it onto any kitlist of mine these days, although my rambles these days to tend to be on the short side.
I do feel for the Duke of Edinburgh students one sees about the countryside, encumbered as they are with the biggest and heaviest rucksacks imaginable, more suited to a month in the Hindu Kush than a weekend in our own dear hills.
And as for Ben Nevis - as little as possible in the current weather. Up and down in a jiffy.
In the 90s I sent some scouts out on a two day expedition. Let them decide exactly what to take.
They opted for canned food as dried food was pretty awful back then. We did ask them several times if they had everything and were they sure they wanted to take canned food.
Anyway, when it came to cooking their dinner, they found they hadn’t packed a tin opener, or any plates, knives, forks or spoons.
Luckily they weren’t wild camping and managed to borrow said items.
Here here, undies, crocs and a head band
Walking on the West Highland Way along the side of Loch Lomond there was a guy with a map in a map case and a compass hanging round his neck so they could get checked every 100m or so.
We are talking about midsummer sunshine and a path with signs at every junction and a loch on one side and a mountain on the other. It's hard to conceive of somewhere it would be harder to get lost.
On the other hand I can almost see the reason for the second pair of socks especially if you don't have fancy walking/running socks and your using cheap cotton ones. Once they get sweated through you're on the way to blisters and a dry pair after a half day walking could be a good tactic.
That might have been me if it was 2003. I quite like picking out little features and comparing them to the map.
I remember many years ago kit checking some Scouts for an overnight hike. Despite instructions and training and letters home one extremely small boy had been issued with a microwave meal and a 2lb bag of sugar (for cups of tea) by his very loving but rather dozy mother. We removed them before setting out. I can’t remember his name, but I do remember him fast asleep on the platform at Sheffield station on the way home.
We let the Venture Scouts pack for camp once. They remembered stoves but no pans. We had realised their error and had pans hidden in the boot of the car for hours before we let them know.
I imagine you are speaking as a competitive fell runner rather than a humble walker or mountaineer. I often leave The overtrousers behind if there is no rain forecast. But, On the walk in to to Monte Rosa hut last year I tried to keep going in just my trousers but I was soaked and getting very cold, so I had to put them on.
For most of us mortals it would be dangerous to dispense with overtrousers completely. For me, if there is any prospect of heavy rain they are an essential item.
Being more of a climber than a walker, I often wonder how people stuff their bags full for a day on the hill, especially as my walking kit is my climbing bag with all the climbing stuff taken out.
I suppose this leaves light belay jacket, waterproof jacket (cos it's the Ben,) maybe trousers if there's a lot of rain forecast, lunch, map, compass, knife, whistle and the usual two head torches (overkill), batteries, tp, survival blanket, finger tape, midgie net, probably 2 liters of water for the Ben at the mo (unless going by the CIC,) bothy bag and first aid kit depend on the group, as do spare hats and gloves. All in, it fills half a bag and I'm wondering what the others have.
My paragliding bag is even less, belay jacket, gloves, snacks and a litre of water, though did think after getting munched last night that I'd put a midgie net in.
I wouldn't dream of going out on the hills without condoms and lube.
Setting off from Argentiere to do the Haute Route and our guide got us to come to his flat the evening before with all our kit. He then went through our sacs and threw out most of what we would carry for a day in British mountains; I think we ended up with one ski jacket, a headtorch, toothbrush, sun cream, sunglasses, wallet and a water bottle each and not much more!
> I can’t remember his name, but I do remember him fast asleep on the platform at Sheffield station on the way home.
Bless him! Hope it was a good experience and he has fond memories of it.
Mick
> In this weather and heat, probably just a four litre bottle of water.
fixed, but agree with the concept
I had a friend who carried a cast iron boot remover all the time, so he didn't have to bend down to remove his walking boots when he arrived at a pub. He was tall.
But he still had to undo his laces and put them back on again!
Yes; waterproof trews, hateful things. I can see some point on multi - day trips but If you're out just for the day why bother?
Driving through the Peak I often see lots of kids on DofE expeditions. I'm glad to see that the lightweight backpacking revolution appears to have completely passed them by, and they still carry 70 litre rucksacks loaded to capacity for a weekend trip. Builds character, I guess.
A stuffed fluffy toy animal to sit on the trig and photograph.
Was chatting with my sister recently about a rucksack sizes and being in the hills for walking or mountain biking.
Occurred to me that if I go out mountain biking for a whole day, I actually take far less than if I go walking!
I usually take lightweight waterproof trousers but rarely ever wear them. However, on the extremely rare occasions when I do use them, they are invaluable. This weekend, I suspect I would have had a dose of hypothermia if I hadn't put them on.
Thinking back to my 50mile 3 day hike days, even a small tent split between the group, plus a sleeping is most of the bulk. Add 3 days worth of food, a stove and enough fuel, there’s not a lot else you need.
It’s a rite of passage. Even now I put stuff in my bag that I’ll never need.
Decent goretex waterproof trousers are cheap and lightweight and can be the difference between a comfortable walk and a miserable battle against the elements. Why waste all that energy trying to keep wet legs warm when you can avoid getting wet in the first place. Never mind the chaffing.
I much prefer waterproof weather to waterproof trousers, and if the former fails then a degree of moderate wetness is preferable to the latter, within reason and safety.
It is worth remembering that the spare pair of socks will also work as mitts, even for climbing, to an extent, and a full length sock in winter makes a serviceable neck warmer. People have died as a result of losing gloves.
> It is worth remembering that the spare pair of socks will also work as mitts, even for climbing, to an extent, and a full length sock in winter makes a serviceable neck warmer. People have died as a result of losing gloves.
I find a spare pair of gloves works admirably as a spare pair of gloves. And a buff makes a splendid neckwarmer. In more than 50 years on the hills and mountains, I have never found the need to put socks on my hands. Still each to his own, I suppose.
Thoroughly agree on the waterproof trousers, especially as I once attended a winter mountaineering course at Tulloch Mountaincraft, which included digging then sleeping in a snowhole. Conditions were warm and the snow was wet and after a couple of hours of excavation my breeches were soaked through. I wore them in my sleeping bag thinking they would dry out but how wrong I was - the down bag turned to wet bog paper and I had a miserable freezing night. A pair of Goretex overtrousers worn while digging would have made all the difference.
I've lent a pair of socks to someone as gloves. The unexpected sometimes happens and it helps to think laterally. A sock can actually be better than a glove in certain conditions, but not better than a mitt of course, as gloves prevent mutual warming between fingers.
> I wouldn't dream of going out on the hills without condoms and lube.
Appropriate username.
The very first thing to put in your rucksack is a spare rucksack because 'you never know'.
12 litre rucksack is plenty for summer UK (22 litre is just about enough for the Alps)
For a walk up Ben Nevis in the current weather we have been having:
1 daypack (medium size Rucksack)
1 water container (full) per person
food (Sandwiches, emergancy rations, fruit but not bananas)
Light waterproof and trousers (in case of clag or Heaven forbid be-knightment. In respect of waterproof trousers I swear by them as nowt annoys me more than rain running off my jacket to gather round my crotch. I always end up holding my jacket out to try and stop water soaking into the top half of my trousers if I don't have my waterproofs on)
head torch (and spare batteries)
midge repellent
hat (for the sun)
sunglasses
walking poles
Map & Compass (old school me)
tick tweezers (just in case)
suncream
possibly a light fleece too as it may be chilly on top if there is a wind
Different again if likely to rain or in Spring/winter/Autumn
> Socks can also double up as a pair of mittens in extremis
Until you need your spare socks to be socks (which could now be wet/frozen) by which time you could well need your spare gloves.
> Appropriate username.
Well, if you add a short length of hosepipe to those previously mentioned two items you've got the classic Bear Grylls emergency-rehydration kit -- but I'm not sure if they are available at Go Outdoors pre-packed, ready to throw in the rucksack, just yet.
Bobble hat.
Knitted Scarf
Spare red socks.
Torch
Spare bulb and Batteries
Darning wool and darning set.
Cassette player + Folk tapes
Dubbin
Messtins
Paraffin and meths as primer
Primus Stove
2 tins of beans, 1 tin rice pudding
Teabags
Mug
Milk
Tinopener
KFS
toilet paper
Dipole Kit
PRC320
etc etc
because bananas aren't technically a fruit ? I have no idea either.
All this talk about spare socks doubling as mittens ... spare mittens are also great as socks, so I always carry both. I have often arrived happy and warm at the pub after a cold day on the Ben wearing socks on my hands and mittens on my feet.
I sometimes leave the pub in that state....
While fruit like apples and oranges will happily bounce around in a rucksack all day, in my experience bananas rapidly turn to black mush...unless you have one of those banana carrying things that look like....well a banana
The skin?
Haha me too - I'm then glad of the 2 spare bobble hats and the prusik slings for improvising knee protectors ..
The insides. Skin will turn black if subjected to high temperatures fairly rapidly.
Too many times I have just ended up with pulp in a skin bag
Basically anything that is liable to bruise easily is not good for a backpack, unless you like bruised fruit.
Have you tried wrapping them up in socks?
The slippery banana coating helps to prevent blisters.
oops, yes, and half a pound of butter and a few eggs to be hotted up
Drunk before you even get to the pub then? Excellent!
I hate waterproof over trousers, probably due to them being crinkly, rustling and annoying in the old days. My original (still going strong but needs attention at the seam tape) goretex jacket is almost knee length for this reason. No wet bum or soggy thighs.
I'm about to get up and take a group up Buchaillr Etive Beag today. Clear blue sky day forecast. I am going to wear shorts and carry waterproof trousers to chuck on at the top as the windchill is forecast to be about 6 degrees up there, but I would roast in trousers lower down. Waterproof trousers are quick and easy to chuck on and they block the wind. I don't understand the dislike of them!
Spare socks are something I have never understood. If you have got your socks wet, it surely means that you have also got your shoes wet. Dry socks into wet shoes = more wet socks!
That’s possibly because you are much younger than me. The old waterproof trousers were truly awful. Imagine wearing a giant crisp packet on each leg
The advances in technical fabric are quite something.
The sock thing is I think often psychological. I’ve had kids have a strop and refuse to carry on, and something as minor as giving them clean socks can make a difference.
I may not be much younger, but have kept up with advances in gear! I remember plastic fantastic, and I was glad to upgrade when things improved!
I'd never even have thought to offer a kid socks to keep them going. Chocolate tends to be my go to! Or walking poles.
> I'd never even have thought to offer a kid socks to keep them going. Chocolate tends to be my go to! Or walking poles.
Socks are better for their teeth, ask any dentist
> Spare socks are something I have never understood. If you have got your socks wet, it surely means that you have also got your shoes wet. Dry socks into wet shoes = more wet socks!
On overnight trips, if my socks have become damp in the day, having clean dry socks to wear in the tent is a little bit of luxury that can make the trip much more enjoyable. If my socks are damp because my boots are wet, I'll put my damp socks back on when I start hiking again. If it is only sweat that has made my socks damp and the boots are fine, clean socks for day 2 is welcome. As I said in an earlier post though, I only carry spare socks on multiday trips.
in the days of sterner footwear periodically changing socks was recommended on expeditions longer than a day walk
Always feel sorry for the DoE kids labouring under towering rucsacs. Heard a funny story last night from a running mate, his daughter went along to the Gold award practice hike, equipped with a mix of her stuff and his lightweight mountain marathon gear all in a 35l sac with room to spare ...and got told to go and repack because it was too *light*.
Agreed, I do dry socks in the tent. But I know a number of people take them on day walks in case they get wet feet.
> head torch (and spare batteries)
Spare batteries for a day walk in Scotland in summer is ludicrous.
Till you f*ck up, Sprain an ankle, go the wrong way off, fail to calculate the time correctly and find yourself for whatever reason still on the hill when it goes dark with the torch with 5 seconds of battery life because you forgot that you had used it for the past 5 trips.
One thing I forgot to mention as a general thing for Scotland in the summer.
Midge spray
Midge mask and gloves
We got damn near eaten alive on Etive one summer
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail
I forgot woollen puttees, can be used as bandages in emergency. and wrap up photographic plates
> Socks are better for their teeth, ask any dentist
They can be quite nutritious if you have worn them for a few days.
In mid summer in Scotland it's light till around 23.00 sunrise is about 04.00. With a LED headtorch a set of batteries lasts a long time, I haven't carried spare batteries for years. In winter I just take two headtorches. How else do you see to change the batteries in the dark?
In winter you can stuff a sweaty sock into the right sized crack, wait a few minutes for it to freeze in place and, hey presto!, a thread belay
I have changed batteries in the dark many times. It just comes natural.
Granted it stays light in Scotland later but spare batteries is a good thing to have on you.
and a swiss army knife. Carrying one is second nature so I forgot to mention it
I find a cutlass has more cred if it comes to anything serious
Held between the teeth while climbing I hope.
Swiss army cutlass?
> One "exalted" expert came back with a long list of things, amongst which were to carry extra pair of socks within rucksack
Completely agree, spare socks are essential if overnighting - have you ever put soaked socks on in the morning then walked all day, squelching? And socks do not weigh much
but if its proper wet, boots are wet too so spare socks are soggy as soon as you walk around the following day?
In the really poor weather and if its a short trip wring the socks out and bung them into the bottom of the sleeping bag. If its cold then use the Sig bottle as a hot water bottle with one of the wet socks slipped over it. That one will be dry by the morning.
So just decide which foot you like the most. For me its the left one. Right foot is stronger and can look after itself.....