UKC

I'm curious to hear opinions on building belays involving a cam. I have observed different practices from what appear to be experienced climbers; practices ranging from "no never use a cam for a static protection" to "my first choice is to use a cam for building belay". 

I'm a non british climber and noted different practices in different parts of Europe including GB.

"Have you experienced any issues with using cams in belays? Does it make a difference if the belayer is "in the system" or "out of the system?

My approach to cams in belays is the same as my approach to using them for protection on the route itself. I use the best placements available with the gear I have left on my harness. I'm not aware of any reasons to favour or avoid cams in that decision.

In practice, what I place is likely to vary depending on crag and rocktype. At a lot of places, slings around boulders and trees are the fastest and easiest option and cams or nuts don't even need to be considered. On limestone, I'd tend to favour nuts over cams but only to the same extent that I would on the route itself.

If it was multipitch, I'd sometimes favour a nut over a cam but that's just because I'd be thinking about what I might need on the next pitch. I'd likely be carrying doubles of most nuts but no double cams.

Fundamentally, if a cam is worth placing on the route to potentially hold a leader fall, it's far more than capable of being a useful part of a belay to withstand the much smaller forces generally placed on a belay.

I generally avoid cams on unattended top-rope setups, for fear of them walking into an unsafe position over many repetitive uses.

If I could get something else in I would, a cam would be a last resort.  I have had cams "pop" on me especially in limestone.  Having said that some placements in some rock types are bomb proof.

Al

.. use the best placement possible. As my rope will be taut against the gear then i have to consider whether me belaying is going to cause the cam to 'wiggle and walk', but if when taking rhat and othet factors inyo account the cam is the best piece.... then use it.

I've heard quite a few people lately say they wouldn't belay off a cam. I ask them if they trust cams as a runner to hold a leader fall, and they always say 'yes'. So why not trust them as part of a belay anchor? A well-placed cam is as good as a well-placed nut. A badly placed cam is as bad as a badly placed nut. If people don't trust cams, why carry them at all? I can't be sure, but possibly when people say they don't trust cams, they actually mean they don't trust their own judgement to know when a cam is placed well.

Obviously a first choice for an anchor would be a sling or the rope around a big, immovable object like a boulder, tree, etc, but otherwise I use cams, nuts, hexes, etc. daily to build sound belay anchors.

There is no problem with using cams for belays. They just have to placed appropriately like any other piece of gear. I do find that some people have a tendency to use cams in placements where wires and dare I say it hexes would be better. Beware cams in parallel sided limestone cracks that have been smoothed off by repeated gear placements. Cams need friction to work!

Lower forces on your belay? Yes if your aren't multi pitching however a relatively small fall onto the belay without a runner in for the leader can generate larger forces due to fall factor.  These can be belay breaking falls.

There is a taught protection heirachy. 1. Natural - slings on spikes, threads etc . 2. Passive - nuts 3. Semi-active such as hexes and tricam and 4. Active - cams and ballnuts.

This is not to say I don't belay off cams, I do but only if pieces in the first 3 categories aren't going to work. When I do I make sure I can see them while belaying.

I also would rather have my cam on my gearloop for the pitch above and nothing is more frustrating in a second than someone who places the cam you could have placed at the crux and instead you are left, run out and pumped, to fiddle in a poor wire because the second was too lazy to find an adequate placement for it on the belay ledge.

I wonder if this comes from the instructing side of things and gets lost in translation. When we’re teaching on Rock Climbing Instructor courses we advise to avoid cams in bottom rope systems because you can’t see if it’s walking / moving as it’s loaded / unloaded repeatedly.

On multi pitch I’ll try not to use cams on belays, to keep them available for the next pitch, but if a cam’s the right thing, the cam’s the right thing.

This reminds me of a story about two friends on Lundy.  Martin leads the first pitch of Widespread Ocean of Fear (E5) and belays off two Friends in a flake.  As Paul follows, he is NOT reassured when Martin says "DON'T fall off" but manages to climb safely to the belay.  Where-upon the rope, dangling down to the foot of the route, gets caught.  So Martin now abs off the two Friends, frees the rope and reclimbs the pitch.  Paul spends a lot of tie gibbering... but the Friends stay in place.  They climb the top pitch without incident.

Recounting this many years later, you could still see the fear in Paul's eyes. 

A general avoidance of cams for belays is nonsense.  In the real world, they are in continual use for both belay anchors and protection, especially in the medium and larger sizes.  Like any piece of gear, one has to understand the limitations and deploy the gear in an appropriate way.  On slick rock types like some limestones and basalts, cams can be unreliable, so you do have to know your venue.  When there are choices, a range of considerations applies, such as what gear might be needed for the lead.  All of this is situation-dependent and not subject to some generic ordering of gear types, but it isn't unusual to deploy seldom-used passive gear for the anchor and save the cams for the crux.

Small cams, from finger-size down (below purple or grey camalot) are less reliable and medium-ish stoppers are probably going to be a better bet in that range.  When the gear gets smaller than that, you're in the realm of manky belays no matter what you're using.

Which is why I specifically said "much smaller forces generally placed on a belay". I think that was a fair statement. Probably 99% of belays will only ever experience forces much smaller than a lead fall.

I think that's overly prescriptive and lacking in nuance. All of those categories of gear can range from bombproof to utterly useless so the categories overlap entirely. I would rather have a good cam than a bad spike any day, which makes that hierarchy rather meaningless.

I did mention that as a consideration.

I have to proclaim a vested interest in this thread as I was the one who originally put doubts into the OP's mind.

I have had two experiences when resting on the rope off a cam, and having sat their dangling for a minute or so the cam has unexpectedly popped. The two occasions were on grit and granite. OK so I was pumped when I placed them so they were probably not the best placements, but they initially held.

What I deduce from this is that cams do not grip so well under a steady body weight load (they are designed to grip best under a dynamic load), and any slight movement could make them slip.

If that is the case then if you are belayed off a cam with your body weight loading it then a slight movement could potentially move it unexpectedly outwards, thereby possibly reducing the effectiveness of the placement.

Of course I have belayed off cams when there has been no alternatives, but I will always look for others first.

On single pitch grit (or granite, or similar rock type) I have no problems with using a cam as part of a belay (or indeed constructing an entire belay out of cams), and if there are obvious bomber cam placements around I'd probably place them in preference to nuts for efficiency (but the first choice would always be a massive boulder I can tie the rope round or sling, again for speed).

On a multipitch I might avoid it unless necessary, or necessary because I need a multidirectional bit of gear, because the cam in question might be missed on the next pitch.

On certain rock types I might be less enthusiastic - but that'd be in line with my enthusiasm for placing cams as lead protection.

Like everything else in climbing, weigh up the factors (the rational ones, not the 'I don't trust cams in a belay' factors), and make a decision from there.

I know quite a few people who have spent several nights hanging from cams.  Cams' holding ability doesn't decline over time, and nothing in their design considerations distinguishes between instantaneous and continual loading. 

I think the correct deduction is that poorly-placed cams can fail.  But this is true of all gear. Perhaps a problem is that cams might seem to be automatic, plug 'em in, give 'em a tug, and they're good.  The reality is that one has to attend to local features of the placement that might be detrimental, and that certain rock types are not good for cams, belay or protection.

If a "slight movement" destroys the integrity of the placement, it is almost by definition a bad placement.  This certainly happens on aid climbs.  Perhaps the cams are almost open (so wrong size) or the cam has been placed in proximity to locally wider crack sections (so wrong position), or the crack is severely flared, or the inside surface has little bumps the cam can hang up on but also pop off of. 

All the gear involved in belay stances has to be placed in the most optimal way available.

I try to use cams in belays during multipitch as often they are more able to hold upwards pulls than nuts (obviously depending on placement and anchor position)

Ding ding, all multibitch belays should have atleast one omnifirectional piece. So either a cam or a perfect thread. Don’t find threads all that often on granite, so cam it is.

And as has been said already, no reason not to use a cam on a belay. In fact, as I wrote above, quite often you *should* use at least one cam. Toprope anchors, well perhaps don’t build the anchor solely of cams.

And to who ever wrote that had a cam blow once they were sitting on it. Congrats, it was a shitty placement, either because the cam was badly placed (wrong size) or the rock was shite an broke (still a bad placement).

Sorry maybe I didn't explain myself very well, I did not mean to imply that their holding power diminished over time. And what I meant about the loading was that it is proportional to the force applied so body weight will transfer less load to the cams than a falling climber.

Agreed but if there are more variables that have to be taken into consideration with cams then isn't that a reason not to use them as first choice.

The only real reason not to use a cam in a belay is that your partner is then not able to use it on the following pitch. So you look for nut placements first, but you can only use what's available!

I concluded as others did - that the placement was simply not good (or the wrong size of cam), in much the same way as a poor nut placement / wrong size of nut could hold initially, then fail after you move about on it.

I'd agree with your second to last post up until your last assertion regarding small cams being less reliable. Although obviously they generally have a low breaking load, sensibly strong cams (say Totem black and blue) are generally more likely to have a placement fail than the cam fail. So taking this into account I generally find a smaller decent placement (say parallel crack in suitable friction rock) is much more stable and reliable than a larger one for the following reasons:

-for larger cams any movement available is likely to be larger due to the tolerances in crack size

-the crack inside faces are more likely to vary in quality/distance apart as the lobes are further apart

-the width of cam head compared to the width of crack is likely to be a much lower ratio, making it much easier for the cam to move in all directions and potentially walk

Although obviously you can find bomber cam placements of all sizes, I generally find (if you have the right cams available) a smaller cam will fit a crack better due to the finer size differences, and a larger cam is much more likely to have walked a bit due to belay movements etc.

Yes there is nothing worse that seconding a pitch knowing the crux pitch is next, get to the belay and your mate is merrily hanging off both the red and green Camelots! 

They are my ****in favourite you knob! 

Cams are useful in hanging belays to ensure you don't get pulled upwards and dislodge any wires you might be hanging on. 

Yes there is nothing worse than seconding a pitch knowing the crux pitch is next, get to the belay and your mate is merrily hanging off both the red and green Camelots! 

They are my ****in favourite you knob! 

Cams are useful in hanging belays to ensure you don't get pulled upwards and dislodge any wires you might be hanging on. 

I wouldn't ever belay on cams alone. Anywhere.

DC

That is clearly daft!

It's good enough for Bear Grylls one cam off Bosigran.

I don't see why you wouln't belay from cams, sometimes you have to, even so I don't think I'd be wary of using them.

Why not?

It only needs to hold the force that's applied though, light or heavy doesn't mean it better or worse, the holding force is the force it needs.

Indeed. By is argument, if I understand it correctly, you'd expect cams to spontaneously fall out of cracks under their own weight!

As far as I'm concerned I've never avoided using them in belays except to ensure their availability for the next pitch. If they're needed, use them, if not they're more useful to the leader.

jk

On gritstone cams can explode the rock if they are placed at the edges of cracks or breaks,even if they are 1 or 2 inches in,if the walls of the crack or break are narrowing toward the outer edge. With any belay,it is essential to get in 3 or more,preferably more,  points of attachment.Work out the likely direction of pull and check the safety vids  regarding equalising pressures  in belay systems.Never rush setting up a belay.Always try where possible to site yourself where you can see and or hear  your partner.It is always worth practicing gear placement at ground level.I do this nearly every time I do roped stuff,while I am waiting for my partner to get back to the ground after a route.If you are seconding and about to fall off,shout a warning to the leader,so they can get ready.Times many I have had idiots silently falling off while unavoidably out of sight.

"Times many I have had idiots silently falling off while unavoidably out of sight."  I just knew you would turn into a yoda like character one day

I've belayed off effectively nothing many times (and even held falls from the second) as there was nothing available or nothing I had left fitted. I'd urge everyone to practice old style body belay technique to deal with such situations on a ledge. I've also used as many as 9 pieces of marginal micro-gear equalised as best I could (I never trad climb without RP's and a few microcams as they weight next to nothing and get you out of all sorts of pickles).  You do the best you can with belays  but the 3+ point multidirectional perfect belays, that you most certainly want if an FF2 is likely on a hanging belay, isn't always possible nor required on every belay. 

Badly placed passive gear can also explode rock, so I agree, making sure any belay placements are good is wise.

For the dude who likes his red and green camalot so much, maybe carry another set while you second... they don't weight that much. I found having two (or more)  red, yellow and blue camalots  is really useful for big multipitch granite routes where you occasionally do need one on the belay and don't want to be heading up another 40+m without one (or more) of that size.

So if all there is is parallel cracks/breaks you'd always use a hex?

Jeez, this could be the start of yet another UKC myth! Let's see, if you tie in with a bowline you're signing your death warrant. Belaying on cams is probably lethal. What next…………………..

I have recently been on a course and the recommendation of the guide was definitely use a cam if it is an option  

On Little Tryfan a couple of years ago I overheard an instructor telling his charges about setting up belays and he said: "you wouldn't want to use cams for a belay unless you are American..." 

Bizarre. Yes I would/do use cams for belays. No they don't fall out. As others have stated, the only reason to not use cams for belays, is to save them for the leader, on multi-pitch.

Climbing organisations in some countries do advise against using cams in any type of belay. This is true even in their most recent standards. Some myths are hard to kill.

Then you need more cams  Save the nuts for bailing as they are cheaper to leave behind.

I haven't come across such recommendations, and am interested to see what they say.  Do you have any links?

I have seen somewhere advice for not using cams on top ( bottom ) roping belays as it is not easy to monitor any movement.

On mountain routes in the UK, I am wary of using cams at the top of routes.  The exposed rock is often formed from individual blocks  and cracks between cannot take the expansion pressure of a cam, but are stable enough for nuts or slings.

Here's a link to the Danish standard. The paragraph describing belays says: "Topanker med passive sikringsmidler" which translates into "(Top) anchor using passive protection".

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c10726_22b7f9dbe2fd4f61ba2165d45ef62593.pdf

I really don’t.

Hmm.  That is a course syllabus, not a "standard."  It certainly suggests that cams are not recommended for (unattended) top-rope anchors, but all I can tell is that the course providers have chosen, in this particular course, not to teach how to incorporate cams. 

Any other links, or is that the only one?

By the way, cams can be set in opposition so that rope motions and changes in load direction will not cause them to move, meaning that the concerns about unattended cam top rope anchors can often be addressed, at least if the person setting up the anchor is attentive and experienced in cam usage.

On the other hand, remember that there is really no trad limestone in the USA, which means that cams were never designed for the lower coefficients of friction limestone often presents, and great caution advisable when using cams outside their original design parameters.  The only cams I know of that were designed in the context of limestone climbing are the Totem cams.

It is a standard by Danish standards. Anyway, that paper is what we have written down for teaching single pitch rock climbing with leader placed protection. The rest is just rumours, as a guy from the FDA once said to me. Actually, we could benefit from writing down a lot more details. Could you link to the US standards for inspiration? 

Good tip opposing cams to hinder them walking. I have made similar anchors using two opposing nuts making them stay in position.

I'm not aware of any US standards.  The American Alpine Club is light years behind the European alpine clubs on such things and will never have the financial and technical resources to do any serious testing.

The closest they have come, and this only quite recently, is some blog posts and videos.  Here is such a post about anchors.  https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2017/7/31/anchors .  I had to chuckle because almost every anchor shown is all or mostly cams.  But I don't think there is anything in there specifically about top-rope anchors.

The golden rule is: "there are no golden rules".

It always depends on the circumstances as so many others above have said.

If you won't have sight of the placement while belaying to see if a cam has "walked" (eg when bottom top-roping, or when your placement is half a rope length back) then favour nuts over cams.

If the rock is fragile or low friction, favour nuts over cams.

If the best anchor is a near parallel-sided crack, favour a solid cam over a dodgy hex.

If most of the next pitch is a uniform sized crack, favour a nut over the cam that the next leader will need to protect the crack.

If there is a perfect large nut placement but you've used all the nuts of that size on the pitch below, place a cam rather than a poorly sized larger or smaller nut, but consider replacing it with the right nut when your second reaches the stance.

Or none of the above if the circumstances suggest something else will work better.

Martin

I always try to build a belay that feels really solid. My first preference is two slings around two big blocks. If that's not available then a couple of good nuts. If I still can't find anything, then cams.

I've no particular reason to doubt cams, other than they they could walk (but unlikely since I'l be sat still) or they could explode the rock (unlikely again as there are no lead fall forces). Sometimes, horizontal breaks around the crag top can be a bit grubby and crusty so maybe that's one reason I prefer nuts or slings.

When i have belayed off a cam, I've never had one come out, or even move a bit.

I almost always do single pitch cragging so I would be part of the system.