UKC

I only needed to climb one route on an only moderately wild day with a 50m pitch that turned out to be a bit longer than the 50m rope to realise that the classic "three tugs means everything" system is confusing at best and lethal at worst. What experiences have you had of multi-pitch miscommunication and have you come up with better/safer alternatives? 

I maintain that when out of earshot, the best way of telling what's happening comes through experience of how the rope is moving. Thus for example, if the rope has been moving pretty slowly all the way to the end, it's fairly likely the leader is still climbing. However, they could be on tricky ground and unable to simply downclimb to a belay. If communication isn't possible, there is plenty gear on the pitch and the lower section is not too difficult, then arguably there are worse things to do than just start climbing. With minimal slack above the second, the leader likely wouldn't go any further in a fall than they would if they were on belay. 

It works fine. If you are 50/50 on if you felt a tug then keep belaying. The worst that can happen is you pay out all the slack through your belay device. The opposite applies when setting off seconding, the leader presumes and pits the second on, the second sets off and has their security confirmed when the slack is taken in. Much does depend on the experience level of the pair and how often they've climbed together. You kind of know they need a minute or two to rig their anchors, so you can predict what's about to happen next any way. If both parties are less experienced on a wild day, then single pitch might be a wiser route choice. 

Yeah, the unnecessarily paying all the slack out through the belay device is a PITA. And confusion can then arise once all the rope is out, especially if you know you're on a route where belays are hard-won (winter!) There's at least four possibilities: 1. Leader is at a belay spot and is gonna need a few minutes to construct one. 2. Leader is at a belay spot and has already quickly constructed one. 3. Leader belayed a while ago and has had you on belay for the last 10 mins. 4. Leader is out of rope and can't make it to a belay. You have no idea how much further back their last meaningful runner was. Having a more robust system so you know whether it's 1, 2, 3 or 4 will, at minimum, avoid a fair bit of unnecessary loss of time; at maximum, ensure you don't kill one/both of you.

One such situation when having a reliable system came in handy was on Indicator Wall. I'd led the first pitch and belayed at the rock overhang, to the left of the crux wall. My partner (on 50m ropes) led the crux and moved up and right towards the right hand finish. Having not placed a runner for 40m (since the top of the ice wall) he ran out of rope quite some way short of a belay. Thanks to a decent system, I knew we were then moving together (potentially with bugger all in above) and therefore climbed the crux as if soloing. To have had to do so if I'd actually been on belay would have added time and totally needless pressure to the situation. 

1. Lots.

2. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Binatone-Latitude-Yellow-Walkie-Talkie/dp/B000X2BY...

Talkie walkies for when I know communication will be an issue ahead of time. When the wind picks up, or we're caught out on big routes, I normally go with stopping short (at the end of line of sight/earshot) and yelling a plan back and forth.... how much rope is left? how far is it to the belay?  How much gear have you got in? etc etc.

I'm a big fan of walkie talkies on multipitch routes, especially in winter. Two occasions they have saved what could have been very messy outcomes and the rest of the time it saves any miscommunication from shouting into the wind and just gives peace of mind.

A good second might shout up at half rope and 10m left. Or even a tug upwards at 10m left. Aids the leaders planning.

I now have a set of walkie talkies too. Adds a bit of fun, more than anything else. To solve the miscommunication problem, all that's needed though is 5 tugs for safe, 10 tugs for climb when ready (and 15 for climb but under no circumstances fall off, i.e. moving together or utterly shit belay). I've never known this system to fail: come rain, shine or blizzard, you know exactly what you need to know from 60m away. Unlike 3 tugs, 5 are unmistakable, and are hard to confuse with 10. And even the latter takes under 10 seconds to send as a signal, which is probably quicker than doing it by walkie talkie. Simples. You'd be amazed how partners initially complain though, simply because it's different from the "3 tugs means everything" that we're all used to. 

Climbing at Avon verbal communication regularly is not an option due to traffic noise.  Despite trying many times I've never satisfactorily used the three tugs system.  I follow what one poster above says and play it by how the rope moves, keeping a leader on belay if at all unsure.  Likewise while seconding it's fairly obvious when you start a pitch if you are on belay from the reassuring tugs at your waist taking in the slack.  Thankfully I've not encountered the out of rope and no belay situation yet!  Walkie Talkies I think are the way forward.

Just to add to that, the second quickly knows they aren't being belayed, by the amount of slack at their feet, in fact you should pick that up before leaving the belay point.

A recent issue on  granite I did with my lad. The last pitch was long and convex - the rope drag killed my rope signals. Furthermore, I realised that once he'd taken me off the belay device, the ropes were taut direct to the two anchor bolts - then slack through to him.

In fact, our probs were largely due to his inexperience, but for the future, I will always leave 1 rope out of the anchor bolts so that the comms goes direct to the second. Walkie talkies would seem useful but more kit to maintain and carry, and if the batteries run flat then its back to basics anywy

If in doubt - climb on out.

"three tugs means everything"

Your post brought back memories from my early climbing days as the 'belay bunny'.

On a windy multi pitch climb I received several tugs on the rope so undid my belay and started to climb. I was somewhat surprised to meet my so called experienced leader abseiling back down the ropes.  Part of the learning curve I guess.

I think we can all agree that's obvious. What isn't is the sort of situation I've described, in which case the rope will continue coming tight on the second as s/he moves up, but for varying reasons! 

Me Not taking leader off belay plate due to inability to communicate and him putting me on his plate. We both sat there for about 40 minutes gradually paying out and taking in! 

"1. Leader is at a belay spot and is gonna need a few minutes to construct one. 2. Leader is at a belay spot and has already quickly constructed one. 3. Leader belayed a while ago and has had you on belay for the last 10 mins. 4. Leader is out of rope and can't make it to a belay."

Out of those four you give, (2) and (3) are basically the same thing - the second is either on belay or is just about to be put on belay. (1) doesn't matter as as Krikoman says, the second will soon find out they aren't being belayed up. With (4), yes the second is not on belay, however if the leader is out of rope and unable to downclimb, staying attached may not be the best course of action as at best you'll waste loads of time and at worst the leader may fall off due to being stuck in a nasty position with no option of continuing up to the next gear/ledge. Either way, with the important caveats of a strong second and plenty gear on the pitch, climbing up is unlikely to be "lethal at worst".

Someone mentioned this to me before and I liked it. If the ropes are progressing one at a time, then the leader has to be at a belay. How else could they pull in one rope at a time? If they are both moving at the same/similar rates, they could be doing anything, including still climbing.

Therefore if comms are poor, once the leader has made a belay, they can pull in several metres of one rope, then several of the other, etc. The second knows that they must be at a belay, as that wouldn't happen during (down-)climbing, or even traversing.

Not foolproof, but another tool.

As you say, it's not foolproof as the leader could for example get a high bit of gear in before moving back down to make a big traverse. But in often providing more information when communication is tricky, it's definitely yet another advantage of using half ropes. For instance, the second feeling each rope come tight individually as the leader takes up the slack vs. the leader tugging both ropes when they can't reach a belay.

That's brilliant!

If the pitch is longer than the rope, you don't have a lot to communicate, really.  Either you have to find a belay further back or accept that you are going to have to move together for a bit.

Doesn't sound like an either/or to me.

We use the three tugs system but simply the usual sequence a bit, sea cliffs we also use walkie talkies to save our lungs, we had a windy day at St Govans and whilst everyone else was screaming at each other we quietly chatted over the radios. The only down side to this was that last year during a minor epic a mountain rescue team picked up our chatter and resulting argument then came to investigate (we thanked them all the same)

Can you give us a flavour of said argument? 

I've been waiting for days for somebody to jump on the pun, but since no-one's obliged I'm afraid I have to deliver it myself:

http://maritimeaccident.org/2014/12/north-tug-inexperience-led-to-girting/

Sorry!

Pun? And there was me thinking you meant something else...

Well, nobody has forelocks these days ...

Probably wasn't clear: I meant the alternatives are belay part way along the pitch or move together.  I guess back climbing the pitch and retreating is also a (remote) possibility.

I always used multiple tugs (~10)  repeated as neccesary.  It meant both on belay and ready for the second to climb. Many systems I've seen suggested (esp 3 tugs) could easily be mistaken for other actions of the lead climber. If both leader and second are aware of rope movements this can be pretty safe.