UKC

We have just replaced our club ropes and are wondering what to do with the old retired ones.

We were wondering if we offer them up free to any club member that wants them, but caveat that they should strictly be used only for non-climbing purposes. Are we in any way liable if someone subsequently decides, against our instruction, to climb on them and injures themselves (or someone else)?

Thanks

Lee

Just get them to sign something stating that they're aware of the ropes are/wear and it's unsuitability for climbing?

Make them into mats! https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/ropes/make_your_own_rope_mat-6214 

I've no interest in making anything with them myself, hence asking about giving them away to other club members who may have more use for them (e.g. there are a couple of Kayakers who might find them useful). Seems a shame to just ditch them.

I'm just unsure if there are any legal implications/liability to worry about.

Some sort of signed disclaimer sounds sensible, but I've also head that disclaimers aren't worth the paper they are written on from a legal standpoint.

Has the club absolved itself of any responsibility simply by stating that they are not fir for climbing and should not be used in any safety related application?

If you absolutely don't want people to climbing with them, cut them in shorter bits. Sections of 10 meters are useless for climbing, but perfectly fine to tie a boat to something, dog leach, practicing knots with, etc. 

Lots of yachties could use the (uncut) ropes as mooring lines - drop an email to a local yacht club.

In the past I have given old ropes, cut into short lengths, to the local scouts who

used them for knot practice etc. Also the sub aqua club found them useful for a surface to seabed line.

Give them to Green Peak Gear for recycling, many walls in the north have a recycling bin where you can drop off your old ropes etc.

If you know they are dangerous to climb with them you must ‘put them beyond use’ and destroy them. 

If you’re just getting rid of them because they’re getting towards the end of their useful life ‘for club use’ then it’s up to the buyer/receiver to do their own non destructive testing so long as you are giving them away as second hand. 

As a non profit members club you are not bound under health and safety at work regulations so any prosecutions would be civil actions and you’d just have to prove you hadn’t been negligent. 

Probably not much use to kayakers - they need static lines that float.

Getting someone to sign something to say they understand they are not to be used for climbing is not a disclaimer. 

A disclaimer would be more like “you can use them for climbing but if they brake you agree not to sue me”

its this signing away of your rights that the courts tend to correctly ignore.

Cut the ropes into convenient lengths and share them out amongst club members to be used to replace fixed abseil points, threads etc. Get rid of the rope and tidies up the local crags. 

You cannot sign away your rights with a waiver. I used to own an access company with a very high rope turnover. Under out quality systems we were told to destroy condemned ropes even though they were probably OK. This creates best practice and heaven forbid should there be a problem and in this litigious society and unwarranted actions you would be hung out to dry

Clue is in the word ‘company’. You are bound by different laws to general public and volunteers. 

I assume that members of the club in question pays some sort of membership fees and that the equipment is bought using that money?
I also assume that the club has some sort of equipment officer who is in charge of that equipment and keeps a log of usage to ensure that it is safe to use by the fee paying members, etc.
If the above is true, then you're very much in the realms of PPE and all that entails and I would be very wary of using 'volunteers' as a handy get out clause.
Mountain Rescue are essentially a volunteer organisation and I would hope that they wouldn't just give their old redundant ropes away to people in a state that they could still be used for their intended purpose.

https://madebyscavenger.com/

You could send them to this person to make them into chalk bags and other cool things. 

That’s not what I wrote. 

The law regards the two separately. 

If I ran a busy club then the ropes would be subject to high usage and I would retire ropes that might be perfectly serviceable for a single person using on a more occasional basis sooner.

Thanks for all the responses.

The club is a section within the Sports and Social Club at the company I work at. Members don't pay any subs directly to the climbing club but pay a membership fee for the Sports and Social Club and then we apply for grants from the Sports and Social Club for all of our club owned equipment.

Until now we haven't kept a log of the usage of equipment as we weren't aware that this was something we needed to do but this does sounds like a very sensible idea.

They are not dangerous to climb with, just getting a bit old (guidelines I've read says club gear should be replaced after 5 years and they were bought just over 5 years ago).

Unfortunately we are based in Hertfordshire and nowhere near any of the Geen Peak Gear drop-off points or any sailing clubs.

The BMC has some helpful advice on this:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/File/equipment_advice/club...

I'm not sure if your club is BMC affilliated, however I suspect that you would find any liability insurance which your company/ your club holds would be invalidated in the event of someone having an accident while climbing on one of the ropes in question.

If you/ the people running your club are unclear about the legal responsibilities/ liabilities involved in running a club it may be worth having a chat with Jane Thompson at the BMC (the clubs officer) and looking at affiliating to the BMC (you may however find that your activities are covered by the company's own liability insurance so take a look at this as well).

With regards the ropes you could possibly give short sections (4-5m) to new members/ the Scouts to practice knot tying with, otherwise get in touch with Scavenger as recommended above.

The guidance around disposal of ropes etc may seem overly conservative, however this provides protection to the people running the club.

Think we're starting to get into semantics here.
The 'Law' might well deal with the two scenarios using different Departments to investigate it, etc. but at the end of the day, an organisation that provides a service has to demonstrate that it's doing so in a responsible manner.
Obviously, there are a number of ways of doing that, but I think that any investigation would use 'Industry Best Practice' as a benchmark for what is expected and base their findings around that.

No they wouldn’t. Semantics are important here. The OP is interested in the legal implications. The test is only whether they are negligent and whether the club members should expect a duty of care from the people organising the climbing trips. 

This is further muddied by the fact that the club appears to be part of the Sports and Social club run by employees of (and maybe for?) the company. 

So, the BMC recommends the club retire ropes after 5 years (even if they’ve sat in a cupboard for 5 years) and the club has adopted this policy. An individual being given these ropes would have no issue whatsoever using them. So the club wouldn’t be negligent giving them away to be used by an individual. 

Alternatively the club could avoid the (admittedly very small) possibility of a serious injury occuring, negative posts on social media that are picked up by the mainstream media, reputational damage to their employer and fighting a costly and stressful litigation brought by no win - no fee sharks by simply cutting the ropes up and using them for non-climbing related purposes.

The real test is what would happen in the event of an accident and whether or not the club was deemed irresponsible (to blame) in allowing PPE to be used beyond the manufacturers recommended usage date.
You might be right in saying that there is no legal requirement not to pass on 'out of date' PPE, but if the shit hits the fan, then I wouldn't like to be the Club that did pass it on. 

When my son was in the scouts I gave a few old ropes to his Scout troop on the strict understanding they were not to be used for climbing.

They were happy about this and used them for all sorts of games in the clubhouse as well as cutting lengths for knot practice and lashing bits of wood together to make rafts when camping.

I suspect your local Scout group would be very glad of them.

Before you cut up ropes too short, consider offering them to anyone who trains horses as the elastic nature of a climbing rope provides a useful aid.

Certainly. Depending on usage that can be anything up to ten years. So I’ll repeat what I said. A rope that is used intermittently by a group for 5 years may not be deemed by that group to continue being used for the club, it may however have another few years left in it for personal use. 

It’s down to the person who accepts the rope to accept responsibility for it as a piece of second hand gear. 

No you,re not. If in a case of litigation an expert witness (who will have more safety qualcs. than you,ve had hot dinners) identifies you have not followed best practice i.e. dispose of rope to a traceable facility, your stuffed

It's either good to use or not and if the club decide it's too dangerous to use (which is what they are basically saying by retiring it), then that's it, the PPE has finished it's function and is no longer PPE. 
By the way, why have you introduced further greyness into the equation by mentioning ropes that have been stored in a cupboard, etc.  The OP was quite clear, the ropes had been retired. 

The club also has a responsibility and in this case they are knowingly passing on retired (dangerous) ropes.
Worst case scenario is that a Coroner is involved and any subsequent investigation will quickly find the history of the rope and/or any other PPE used.  
As I said earlier, I wouldn't like to be the responsible person in that club in such an event and no disclaimers, etc. are going to lessen that impact.

Nope. They’re just following a blanket 5 year replacement plan. They don’t need to destroy them. Negligence might apply if they failed to tell the recipient that they’re 5 years old and have been used by a group. It’s up to the recipient to decide. This is civil law where the liabilities are different to criminal law which would apply if it was an HSE investigation  

Lots of 'healthy' debate here

In reply to spencer, yes we are BMC affiliated and get 3rd party Liability Insurance from them.

And yes as others have said, the ropes aren't dangerous, we are just following the blanket 5 year guideline suggested by the BMC. It would seem irresponsible for the club to continue using them up to the point where they might be considered dangerous.

The scouts is a good shout, we have a few members who are heavily involved with the local guides and I'm sure they will have plenty of uses for old ropes. I'm reluctant to cut them up too short as this will limit how useful they may be for other purposes.

I think we will just use a bit of discretion as to who we give them to (e.g. someone who already has their own gear and is heavily involved with the local Guides - yes, a new member without their own gear - no) and get them to sign something so that there is a record that we gave them away on the understanding that they were not to be used for climbing.