UKC

 My son and I will be climbing in North Wales for a week in September. We are coming from the States where we do all of our climbing, both sport and trad, including multi pitch and big walls, on a single rope. I recognize that there are all kinds of reasons that twin ropes are advantageous in the UK, but it’s just not economical for us to do that for the short trip. So I’m wondering a couple of things. First of all,  in which sorts of circumstances with a single 80 m rope, would we get into trouble in, say, the Llanberis Pass?  I’m also wondering how much of a disadvantage we would have if we do need to use a twin rope system, anticipating a long abseil, if we used our current 9.2 mm 80 m rope while trailing or even British-style twin roping with a 60m 9.8 mm?  Would the weight difference really be that significant compared to what you all normally use? (PS Will be focusing on E1-E3 in Dinas Cromlech, weather permitting. )

In reply to Ryanmcd:

I'd say that, provided your rope is a true single rope, then you'll be fine with lots of climbs doable on a single rope. I'm not sure that you would need 80m as most pitches will be less than 50m but I guess it won't hurt (other than weight).

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Should be fine, bring plenty of alpine draws and a tagline for longer abs. You might have to be a tad more selective about gear placements but it's not like you're climbing superstar grades where gear is at a premium. 

In reply to Ryanmcd:

I think you'd be fine. I used to do most of my climbing up to vs on a single. For traditional reasons pitch lengths are often quite short anyway. One thing we would sometimes do depending on the climb was the lead to tie into the middle giving you 2 singles and as you have an 80m and assuming you have a guidebook with pitch lengths effectively having 2 40s would give you plenty of length for some wandering climbs like say valkerie at roaches where you really do need to ropes for effective protection.

In reply to MischaHY:

I can see why the dislikes, but if you're thinking specifically about the cromlech, then yes, the classic E1-3s have loads of gear (except memory lane?). So fair point!

To the OP: yes, fine with an 80m single for the climbing and abseils on the crags in the Llanberis pass. It might be raining, so be prepared to change plans and go to gogarth instead. It looks rank, but it's brilliant, honestly. true moments/free bird, toiler on the sea, quartz icicle, the assassin are nice routes at E1-3. Important to choose the right route at gogarth because some of it is a bit "unconventional" (vertical sandpit). 

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Maybe it could be misunderstood, and misrepresent the E grades to a visitor who isn't that familiar with them.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I don't really see how. The guy climbs multipitch and bigwall in the US and therefore is suitably skilled. E1-E3 on the Cromlech is generally well protected and relatively straight - a few 120cm slings in alpine draw style should make it perfectly steady. 

Obviously folk climbing steady at VS should take a pinch of salt when talking about E grades, but E1-3 is trade grades and the guy literally specifies that those are the grades he's happy to go with in his post. Are we supposed to treat him like a beginner because he's foreign? 

In reply to philipivan:

For what it's worth I did Valkyrie on a single in one pitch - with a ton of extenders. Better with doubles though and as you say 40m is enough for lots of UK trade routes. 

 

In reply to MischaHY:

Your post could be read to imply that harder graded routes are less well protected, i.e that is how the system works. Some climbers from other countries do have this impression. I wasn't being particularly critical of your post, just like Jon, saw this dislikes and joined the dots.

With regard to the grading system, probably assume he's not familiar with it.

In reply to Ryanmcd:

I don't think Left Wall would be too nice on a single rope, because the route goes in a kind of question mark shape.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

To be honest though this would be a fair assumption in general terms. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions but harder also trends towards bolder in my experience.  

That's fair. 

In reply to MischaHY:

Because without the specific context of the cromlech, "it's not like you're climbing superstar grades where gear is at a premium" implies that up to the high grades you can rely on there being plenty of gear. Which is patently false, as you well know.

I don't think anyone's actually concerned for the OP, it's just that if you say something that sounds totally wrong (as your comment does when not talking specifically about the E1-3s on the cromlech, which you were, I guess) then people will reflexively click dislike. That's the magic of the dislike button.

In reply to MischaHY:

Had to check your profile and see if you were from the Peak.

In reply to MischaHY:

Really? Is the spread of boldness as per E1 5a - E1 5c not similarly replicated at the higher grades up to say E7, where the fact that the route is probably climbing some rather blank rock starts to mean that it's likely bold (similarly below E1 the route's going to be following some big features and is likely safe).

 

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

The grade conversion tables in the US guides for UK equivalents tend to be a bit outdated, so not accounting for modern UK grade creep. E1 to E3 might be a bit easy for a big walling US granite climber using those tables. Slab grades can also be brutal in the US in UK terms. I've led quite a few 5.7 granite slabs that were E1 (eg the bold slab pitch on South Crack, SPD, Tuolumne) and even the odd 5.6 that was E1 in JT. Crack grades are normally about right but even then I thought there was famously a 5.9 offwidth pitch on El Cap harder than Goliath on Burb South. On which subject here is a fun trip down memory lane:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/goliath_-_burbage_south-320366

 

 

In reply to MischaHY:

Thanks, yes. We’ve also spent a summer climbing in the gritstone and so have a decent sense of grades. My kid climbs 5.13 sport (7c+/8a) and comfortably leads 7a cracks, so we are staying within comfort level for a whirlwind trip trying to tick some of the classics folks like Jerry Moffatt cut their teeth on. 

In reply to MischaHY: tho to be clear, we’ve never climbed much on granite. And my big walls were all on limestone in Mexico where the systems don’t require hauling (or placing gear, usually, for that matter). But as a team we have gotten very good at rope management, self-rescue, natural anchor building, hanging belays, a wide array of top-down belay methods, and  efficiency. So Gogarth is definitely an option  

 

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Sounds like you'll be absolutely fine. Just send the lad up everything with plenty of kit, he'll have a blast. As said if you think you need doubles simply fold the 80m and the second can larks-foot into the middle which is enough for most UK single pitch. Gogarth is fantastic and a real adventure location - definitely somewhere to be more careful, but anyone climbing 8a will cruise the likes of Gogarth (E1 5b), A Dream of White Horses (HVS 4c) and more whilst having a bloody lovely time of it. 

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Just some thoughts.

You can't climb all week on the Cromlech! 

You can, of course, double your 80m rope and use it as 2 x 40m.  There are not many pitches in the UK at 40m+. That's always an alternative.

Bring lots of nuts!  I've only twice climbed with Americans in the UK and they wanted to use all cams everywhere.  From my (limited) experience of E1-E3 routes, you need to be spot-on with your gear placements. 

You climb on a different echelon from me, but, you know, when in Rome ... You might have a less than ideal rope; unfamiliar gear placements; wet, slippery rock in places; unfamiliar territory.  It all adds up.   

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Would that be Augustine, who seems to be getting pretty good? 

In reply to Coel Hellier:

That's us! We'd love to meet up if possible. Sending you a private message. 

In reply to Offwidth:

Ha, I've backed off South Crack on the Stately Pleasure Dome.  At the pitch where you depart the lovely VS/HVS crack and traverse left for about 50 ft.  The sun was shining on it, making it seem super polished, and the afternoon wind had got up. With no prospect of gear for 50 ft, I bottled it.  Went back a few days later to settle the score.......and bottled it again!  This time, instead of abbing off, I traversed rightwards and upwards, getting just one piece of gear in the 60m pitch. Can't have been more scary if I'd done South Crack.

Rats....I'll just have to go back and try it again.

In reply to MischaHY:

What *are* those dislikes about??

In reply to John Stainforth:

Maybe just a way of expressing a shudder at the thought of leading those routes on a single rope from people used to double ropes?

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Various people have mentioned Gogarth as a possibility. There is a problem - for many (not all) of the routes, you need to abseil in. Abseiling on your lead rope on a sea cliff is not to be recommended (if it falls into the sea when you pull it, it can get tangled then you have big problems...) really you need a second dedicated abseil rope...

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Just make sure that you can manage any abseil on your single. It might be tight for some at gogarth, and from memory the cromlech is >40m

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Our routes often don’t go straight up  so it’s useful or even essential to have two ropes to reduce drag. Take loads of extenders (slings) and you’d be ok on many routes.

On the Cromlech, classic routes like Cenotaph Corner, Cemetery Gates, Ivy Sepulchre, Foil and even Left Wall would be ok with a single rope and plenty of extenders (if fact se of these routes are pretty straight up so wouldn’t even need lots of extenders). Resurrection and Right Wall - no chance, they wander around too much.

You don’t *have* to abseil off any inland crags, it’s always possible to walk off, though you might need to climb higher first (eg on the Cromlech you would need to do a route on the upper tier to walk off - Grond is a good one with a single rope). 

You can double up your 80m single, it will just be a bit heavy. Should be ok for stuff on the left wall as the belay is right on the edge. Wouldn’t work for stuff on the right wall as the belays are well back and the wall is pretty much 40m high.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Good suggestions but not really routes to do with one rope! Assassin may be. Ok to double up a single 80 I suppose. 

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Well on the Cromlech the harder routes are indeed less well protected...

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Indeed. To the OP - no need to ab in for Gogarth Main Cliff, so that’s an option. The big routes (anything left of the route Gogarth) need mid to low tide to access them and afternoon low tide is best as the first pitches will be damp in the morning. Doubled up 80m rope should be enough for a lot of routes but check pitch length. Also you’d want a fairly big rack for the harder routes (double set of cams and lots of nuts) so depends what you have with you. Stuff life Gogarth and Resolution Direct is good fun and not tidal.

Also if your son can lead 7a cracks, check out The Cruise and Run Fast Run Free on Upper Tier but again check the pitch lengths. The Strand is he classic E2 crack but I think it’s over 40m. You can in theory top out via the vegetated top pitch instead of abbing down but no one does that.

Enjoy!

 

I think this might deserve additional emphasis.  In the US, a fairly standard rack is a double set of cams (up to some appropriate size) and a single set of nuts.  My impression is that in the UK, a double set of nuts and a single set of cams is more the norm---US climbers take note!

 

In reply to John Stainforth:

UKC has too many judgemental children and sadly often pretty ignorant about anything outside their own experience in climbing games. I wish the site would dump the button. Misha is one of the most consitently helpful climbers in terms of providing advice on here. Even Jim Titt has picked up multiple dislikes on safety posts at times... some dangerously clueless children.

In reply to John Stainforth:

I get the impression some climbers on UKC have a relatively narrow experience and field of view - for them the idea of doing some like Dream with a single and sling extenders is as much death on a stick as E9 on grit...

The other week me and my girlfriend went and freed the 4 pitch Schöner Riss on  Schaufels in the south German Swabian Alb near where we live, completely on trad. Went at around E3 and felt like one of those Gogarth routes where you move a bit carefully and try not to think too hard about falling off.  Exciting and fulfilling as far as we were concerned - but the locals we told about it were proper freaked out by the idea because they always climb on bolts and don't really trust gear. 

I think it's the same thing here where a cultural predisposition makes people think that the way they do something is the only way it can be done. 

We did use half ropes, though.  

In reply to Misha:

I was talking about the grading system, not the Cromlech. Spoken to a few foreign climbers who've seen 'Hard Grit' and the like. They think higher grade means less pro.

Think I made it clear...

"i.e that is how the system works."

In reply to Misha:

Err, yes they do.

In reply to Ryanmcd:

How old is your son now Ryan?  I think people replying to this thread may have assumed he is an adult - and from climbing with you last year I know that he is a very capable climber but I dont think he is yet in his teens? which does sort of change the nature of the routes you might want to take him on

In reply to Ryanmcd: In any places where you have quick draws or use slings of roughly similar lengths, it could be an idea to think about replacing them with slings which can be extended by circa 3 times as long once unravelled.  Elastic bands or purpose made loops could be used to stop the slings from falling off the 'biner on the gear end of the sling, too - one less thing to worry about while faffing.   

 

In reply to pebbles: Hi Pebbles—that’s right, he’s 13 now. Are you suggesting that some of these routes are very height dependent (he’s 5’1” now)? As for systems, we spent the summer climbing at Lion’s Head in Ontario, which is a lot like Gogarth without tides. Massive exposure, hanging belays, runout limestone (not that Gogarth is limestone). But please let us know if there are issues we are not considering! And what is your real name?

and we will have two ropes with us, just that they are two singles. So leaving an ab line in situ at Gogarth would not be a problem. 

We may also toprope solo some of the more direct, stiffer pitches. We became quite proficient at TR soloing at Lion’s Head, where it is the preferred system for volume and working hard routes. 

 

In reply to Mark Kemball: We will have two ropes with us (60 and 80), but both single. So no problem with leaving the ab line in place. 

 

In reply to MischaHY:

Of course most routes can be done ok on a single rope - in fact many British climbers will have started climbing on a single rope. And I think most British climbers are aware that almost all US climbers do almost all their climbing quite happily on a single rope (The reverse is certainly not true and it is common for double ropes to arouse great curiosity when climbing in the US!).

However, there are very good reasons why people here climb on double ropes. The arguments in favour of a single rope, though they exist, are certainly in general weaker in my opinion, and I suspect that many American climbers, if aware of the advantages of double ropes, would only stick rigidly with a single because of, well, cultural predisposition.

 

In reply to Ryanmcd:

If you don't know how to use it safely. I'm guessing you do.

Two full ropes is maybe 50% heavier than two half ropes of the same length (and era), no big deal until it is. Drag is mainly what you feel anyway and using a couple of ropes thoughtfully can help with that as can keeping pitches short, not running too many together. Most of those North Wales mountain route were put up on *much* shorter ropes than yours and can be escaped easily on shorter ropes.

Basically, don't worry about it and use your experience, there's nothing exceptional about British crags. If you want a pair of ropes for a particular wandering pitch then fold your 80 in half, there aren't many UK pitches anywhere near 40m, most are <20m.

Enjoy. Also if you don't get the weather it's worth knowing the nearby Slate quarries dry very fast and the coastal cliffs (Tremadog, Gogarth/Holyhead, A5) get much better weather despite being close by (by car).

jk

In reply to jkarran:

 

Climbing on a single is like driving an automatic whereas doubles are a stick shift. The former is simpler, has advantages in a few specific settings, and is favoured by North Americans. The latter is a little more complicated, used by real climbers and drivers, and is favoured by Euros (/tongue in the general area of cheek).

 

I'm sure the OP and his offspring/rope gun will do just fine as long as the "classics folks like Jerry Moffatt cut their teeth on" don't include Stoney Middleton. 

In reply to flaneur:

Hah - maybe about 20 years ago Having recently tried an 8 speed automatic Jeep Grand Cherokee in the Austrian Alps I'm thoroughly converted.

Not that I'll be converted to single ropes though, mind...

 

In reply to Ryanmcd:

I climbed on a single rope for years with few problems. The only times when two ropes are good are a) when the route wanders about a bit in order to reduce rope drag and b) to protect the second with a possible top rope on traverse lines or where the line involves some down climbing (ie Valkerie at the Roaches where you descend a flake)

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I'm an anomaly, a US climber who switched to half ropes  30 years ago and has never found a reason to switch back.  Half ropes have a host of advantages, but reading the responses here makes it seem as if their only point is to reduce drag on wandering routes.  I won't insult the intelligence of regular users by enumerating the various ways in which half ropes contribute to protection strategies, safety procedures, and emergency situations, other than commenting that there are a number of advantages, dealing with wandering pro is an important one but not the only one.

That said, if coping with wandering routes is the only criteria, than I think that most of the time one can manage with a single rope and enough slings (extenders) to straighten out the rope path.  I think that a typical US climber's rack will have perhaps 12 "trad draws," made up with a thin tripled full-length runner, and this amount of adjustability is enough to cope with a whole lot of wandering.

I wouldn't recommend that a competent US climber on a short trip switch to double rope technique for a few climbs.  There are differences in handling, especially belaying, that have to be learned, and the leader has to develop a sense about where to place and which strand to clip.  That is better done at one's leisure on comfortable grades.  Absent those skills, a pair of ropes is might turn out to be more of a detriment than an advantage.

In reply to rgold:

That is true, but they are a faff to carry and with that much extension you may well turn a very short fall with double ropes into a significantly longer one with greater chance of ripping gear or hitting something.

Agree there are plenty of other advantages.

 

 

In reply to Timmd:

Don’t ever use elastic bands on slingdraws. This has led to nasty accidents because the slings can get jumbled up in your sack such that the only thing holding the Binet in place is the elastic band. There’s a video on here demonstrating this. Specialist plastic/rubber attachment sleeves are ok.

 

In reply to Ryanmcd:

If you have two singles, it’s just the extra weight, unequal length (not really an issue for single pitch) and potentially awkward belaying if the ropes have got fat with age. Also potentially higher impact force on the runners which is a consideration for marginal gear but that’s a whole separate discussion.

Whether this or that route is suitable for your son to lead is not a question anyone here other than you can answer. 

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Ha, it's Peri, Ryan

Just thought people might want to bear in mind his youth when recommending routes.....from the first post they might assume you're both gnarly old dad and son  climbers   Hope  you have some great dad and son adventures.

In reply to Misha:

I'm the sort who would carefully check each 'biner and slingdraw before climbing, but thanks for the heads up.

In reply to Timmd:

It’s easy to miss from a cursory glance and it’s easy to forget to check *every* slingdraw. Also your partner might use your gear and not even think to check. Plus on multi pitch it can get jumbled up when being shortened and re-racked on the harness on second - do you check slingdraws before every pitch? This is potentially lethal and I believe has led to a well publicised fatality involving an Italian kid. Climbing is full of risks - there really is no need to add to them. What you do is up to you of course but please don’t offer advice to others unless you’re sure that it’s good advice...

In reply to Ryanmcd:

Without reading the entire thread (because there are an awful lot of replies for what is a fairly straightforward question!), I'd like to add that I climb on a single mostly everywhere when there isn't a very compelling reason to do otherwise. Other than a couple of avoidable and self-inflicted problems through stupidity, I've never ran into rope drag issues in the UK climbing on a single rope. If you're mindful of it, it won't be an issue.

Obviously if you're planning on doing anything with an ab descent I'd either bring or acquire a 50-odd metre tag line, or be sure that you'll be able to get off the route in 40m abs!

In reply to Misha:

All politely put points well and duly taken. 

 

In reply to Misha:

I didn't have the method in mind which led to the tragic death of that kid, I had in mind the band acting as a 'collar' looped over the end of a sling before it's put onto the 'biner, and then pushed up snug against the 'biner, just to keep the sling more in place while extending the sling - draw so it's a simple loop like this 0 . One might as well use the plasticky rubbery things designed for the task, but we had different things in mind.  This is more to explain my thinking than to try and say you were somehow wrong btw. 

 

In reply to Timmd:

all those keepers are potentially dangerous, home made and fitted ones. 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=773

In reply to Timmd:

Using bands like that is just unnecessary and as Misha said potentially dangerous.

To the op, I hope you guys have an awesome trip, there is loads of great climbing in North Wales and you will have loads of fun. I started climbing here with a single 50m and got on fine. I'm away in Canada for most of September, but if you are here when I am I'd be happy to show you around some crags.

Alex

In reply to Ryanmcd:

One other thing to mention - don't forget the slate! I suspect it would be a unique experience for you and your son, many climbs easily doable on a single rope, in a very unique setting.

In reply to Timmd:

As others have said, this is precisely what causes accidents. 

In fact as shown in the video it’s possible to end up in that situation even with a ‘specialist’ attachment thingy. 

In reply to Removed User:

Yes indeed! As we've been studying the guidebook, the slate has been standing out. 

In reply to Misha:

The sling-draw issue had nothing to do with the death of the Italian boy.  This suggestion keeps getting made on UKC but isn't true. 

(Though the sling-draw issue is a real one, and people should be aware of it.)