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Observation on my shoddy HVS record

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 Blue Straggler 13 Sep 2018

An easy puzzle for you all

Something peculiar came to mind recently when I was reminiscing about my poor poor record at leading HVS.

I'll list here the routes I've failed to cleanly onsight, and those that I have cleanly onsighted, see if you can spot the pattern. As a clue, it's not to do with rock type or the nature of the fail...

 

Failed onsights at HVS:
Trungel Crack (retreat)
Suicide Wall (dog P1)
Three Pebble Slab (toprope rescue)
Avalanche Wall (dog)
Quantum Crack (escape to neighbouring route)
Pedestal Crack (redpoint attempt, can't recall whether dog or retreat)

also a little outlier which still belongs as "not an onsight"...
Tody's Wall (clean lead but still not onsight having seconded several times before so only counts as redpoint)

Clean onsights at HVS:
Tinner
Right Hand Twin
Suspect Intellect
Starco
Croton Oil
 


 

 krikoman 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

"see if you can spot the pattern"

The climber?

 mutt 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Whilst i'm not familiar with some of those particular routes , I don't think you need to be too concerned.

there was a long period before the invention of E grades where HVS was the hardest grade that could be given to a route. I climb at Swanage mostly and I've lost count of the number of HVS's that, long after the E grades were invented, have been upgraded to E1 or even E2.

Perhaps the ones you have failed on are actually E1's. The best way I've found to deal with this situation is to not climb HVS's. Concentrate on leading E1 and you likely find that everything becomes easier. E1's are in the most part actually E1's. HVS can be anything between VS and E3.

3
Lusk 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

The fails were attempted on Saturdays or Sundays with a massive hangover and the others were mid-week, booze free?

 deepsoup 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

TPS is only HVS if you can do it.  It gets E1 if you need to be rescued.

 wbo 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:so you're round about 50% on the 10 or 11 you've done?  

Go climbing more.  If you were to go to Stanage for a day how many routes would you do?

 

In reply to Lusk:

Croton Oil was done with a stinking hangover and on little sleep, stressed about my car's clutch looking like it was about to die, and done as my "warm-up" route.

The fails were all attempted when in "top condition" in mind, spirit and body.

In reply to wbo:

Seven because I am gentle and chilled and like mooching around

In reply to mutt:

It isn't about relative difficulty of the failed routes vs successful ones but thanks!

 deacondeacon 13 Sep 2018
In reply to mutt:

> Whilst i'm not familiar with some of those particular routes , I don't think you need to be too concerned.

> E1's are in the most part actually E1's. HVS can be anything between VS and E3.

 

This is so true... Many,  many classic HVS's are a pig, and it's rare that you get a softy. E1's on the other hand tend to have a narrower margin of difficulty (and a climber will often unconsciously try harder for that elusive 'E' tick).

 

4
In reply to krikoman:

One of those "likes" is from me, btw

1
 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Maybe a correlation with the quality of films you saw in the days before ?

3PS is E1 in the definitive and E1 on UKC votes that Rockfax supposedly base their grades on (unless Chris decides to ignore them).

On the other routes you might need to improve your crack climbing. Lots of people climb HVS cracks using harder technical moves than they need to, due to lack of skills practice.

Post edited at 12:44
1
 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to deacondeacon:

There are top-end HVS pigs and proper HVS sandbags that are the wrong grade (like Masochism). None of his crack list look like that though and Pedestal, Crack is yorkshire VS.

In reply to Offwidth:

Getting warm...

 Coel Hellier 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Easy rescue, dog, escape to adjacent route => fail

None of the above easy => succeed?

 aaron_t 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

As a pattern in those, all of the ones you failed on mention the type of climb in the title, crack, slab etc. all of the ones you climbed clean do not.

 

Or have I misunderstood the question?

Removed User 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

If you re-run your stats to include the E0 grade you should see the distributions making much more sense.

3
 kathrync 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

If the name of the route is somewhat descriptive, e.g, contains "wall", "crack" or "slab" you failed the onsight.  If the name is more abstract, it was a clean onsight.

 GrahamD 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

The pattern seems to be that you do a lot of climbing on grit and you aren't really an HVS leader.

  , obviously

 Tigger 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Everyone knows Three Pebble Slab is E0 not HVS

9

aaron_t wins!

 

KathrynC surely you saw this on my FB a few weeks ago?

I haven't looked at dates of first ascent but generally it's older routes that get terrain description in the title (wall, crack, slab etc) until we ran of descriptors and had to get more imaginative. 
So I like to think I am no good on old fashioned climbs and can only do modern groovy trendy ones  

In reply to GrahamD:

> The pattern seems to be that you do a lot of climbing on grit and you aren't really an HVS leader.

 

I'm not really a VS leader at the moment!  

btw my hardest leads have been on granite and slate (both headpoints though), make what you will of that....

 Alkis 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

*cough*Jeepers Creepers*cough*

 ianstevens 13 Sep 2018
In reply to deepsoup:

> TPS is only just HVS

fixed

 

1
 kathrync 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> aaron_t wins!

> KathrynC surely you saw this on my FB a few weeks ago?

No, I must have missed it - had a bit of a hiatus recently.

 

In reply to kathrync:

OK then you get a legitimate silver medal on this thread

 

Lusk 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> aaron_t wins!

Maybe if you were dyslexic you'd have 100% success?

Trungel Crook
Suicide Walk
Three Pebble Balls
Avalanche Law
Quantum Quark
Pedestal Basin

In reply to Lusk:

Three Pebble Balls sounds like several good reasons to see a doctor!

 IJL99 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I'm still claiming three pebble slab as an E1,  I just have to be sure to take the old guidebook

 Dave Garnett 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> So I like to think I am no good on old fashioned climbs and can only do modern groovy trendy ones  

I find that the more time I've spent thinking about a route the less likely I am to get up it.  Not knowing the reputation of a route and not having imagined all the ways I could fall off it definitely helps.  

In reply to Blue Straggler:

The ones you failed on are hard ones?

 kathrync 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> OK then you get a legitimate silver medal on this thread

I'll treasure it forever...

 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Pedestal Crack on Froggatt would be amongst the easiest 5% of HVS grit classics IMHO. The only obviously much easier one to me is Knight's Move which I think should be VS as the adjectival hardest bit (the start) is shared with a VS. This is despite UKC votes (like all the low in the grade  Stanage VS classics) putting it at mid-grade.

1
 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Alkis:

E1 in the definitive (unless you bail out).

Incidently what's anyone else's view on The Groper... it seemed high end to me but gets low in the grade in UKC votes... obviously the masses who give Agony Crack a higher grade are not climbing and voting for it.

In reply to Offwidth:

Pedestal Crack I maybe wasn't trying THAT hard as it wasn't an onsight anyway so I'd "devalued" it and it didn't "matter".


And the very fact that (at least in "HVS" context) I've forgotten that I've led Knight's Move at all, adds weight to your comment. 

Totally forgot it. 
Looking back, I dogged it but that's cos it was freezing cold and done as the first route the morning after a massive drinking session at Thorpe Farm and I had no business being on it

Now I have a feeling I've got another HVS onsight at Burbage North, very soft touch one move wonder, must check....hang on...

 

 C Witter 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Hm...

1. You're not so hot on Joe Brown routes... But, then, who is!
2. You've not even bothered with any Whillans routes (probably for the best)
3. You're a bit better on Allan Austin routes...
4. You spend too much time on that awful grit stuff.

Getting anywhere?

 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

The Chant ?  VS in the definitive and I'd argue almost definitively short route VS 5a . Not even as low as borderline HVS in UKC votes.... similar to The Groper votes in fact (what fun!)

 Duncan Bourne 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I have done Suicide Wall (I assume you mean the one at Cratcliff?) very thuggy in some sections so I can understand the dogging. I remember doing the top in a blind panic runout 'cos I was too pumped to place gear. Three Pebble Slab - the is it isn't it debate isn't for nothing. One piece of gear (In admittedly a rapidly improving placement) followed by a long run out with decking potential. Quantum Crack and Avalance wall are both pretty thuggy I seem to remember

 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Isn't Suicide Wall just f**king brilliant though? It is also possible to avoid the jamming crux (for the truely allergic) to reach The Bower by a sneaky 4c line left.

Post edited at 15:46
 Duncan Bourne 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

Depends on which definitive guide you read

My 1991 Froggatt BMC guide and 2001 Rockfax guide both list the Chant as HVS 5a

I grant you it is a soft touch with only one hard move near the top.

In reply to Offwidth:

 

No it was Right Fin, does that fit my pattern or not?

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Yes Cratcliffe, I should have specified that my lead was P1. I did avoid the jamming crux and with no dogging, but there had been some little slumps earlier. Didn't change the line to the bower itself, just a micro eliminate (where the jam was the thing being eliminated which needed some technical trickery, more work overall, and a slightly bold pop. 
Was happy not to have P2, the "drainpipe" bit is well necky.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Quantum Crack and Avalance wall are both pretty thuggy I seem to remember

I should have specified, Quantum Crack at Lawrencefield Roadside. Sounds like you have the right one (if there even are others). A bold reachy pop for a positive hold, not quite a jug but pretty good iirc, though I don't know as I never made that move!

Avalanche Wall, I'd got through most of the thuggy stuff and was frankly on easier ground, just felt a bit pumped and wanted a rest before committing to the next move. Weirdly got through the famously awkward chockstone finish quite neatly!

 

 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Unlike the others ... more a boldish boulder problem on a route really. I do think it's proper HVS though and no protectable one move wonder (like The Chant, which would need to be nearly 5c to make it proper HVS).

Quantum Crack and AW are a real physical challenge and harder than average for HVS onsight I'd say.

One big issue with grit grading is, especially with many routes being quite short, too many climbers only feel the technicality and sustained feel of the moves and ignore the boldness factor... take a wonderful grading system and ruin it by inappropriate application. 3PS by the normal r-hand finish should be low E1 (or E0),  Sunset Slab should be low HVS, etc. Then we have all these newer climbers ego voting on easy classics (esp Stanage VS) and harder climbers with no sensitivity at the grade. Also those who know all the moves and have forgotten what its like as a proper onsight. I wish we had the Mountain Project system where experienced climbers, operating at the grades, that you know you can trust  from their comments, also have their names attached to their grades. UKC would be amazing with multiple examples of the detail that someone like Simon Caldwell provides on bad onsight grading through his comments. Now all the latest grit guides have removed the vast majority of the sandbags it's one of the reasons why Offwidth is still a useful community resource (and as it has all the historical BMC grades for all the routes included).

http://offwidth.uptosummit.com/guides.html  (Flash player needed)

Post edited at 16:44
In reply to Blue Straggler:

 

> And the very fact that (at least in "HVS" context) I've forgotten that I've led Knight's Move at all, adds weight to your comment. 

> Looking back, I dogged it but that's cos it was freezing cold and done as the first route the morning after a massive drinking session at Thorpe Farm and I had no business being on it

NB went back some time later and led it clean so that's another headpoint....

 Coel Hellier 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> The Chant ? VS in the definitive and I'd argue almost definitively short route VS 5a .

VS 5b/c

 

 

 Coel Hellier 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> 3PS by the normal r-hand finish should be low E1 (or E0), 

Shouldn't the term "normal" be used for the finish that most people do? 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Pedestal Crack (redpoint attempt, can't recall whether dog or retreat)

> Tody's Wall (clean lead but still not onsight having seconded several times before so only counts as redpoint)

Sorry, of course those should have been "Headpoint", not "redpoint"

 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Coel Hellier:

UKC logbooks say mid 5a!?... I think hard 5a these days as its got a bit polished in the nearly 30 years since I first led it. I'm not claiming my grading is right but it is normally pretty consistent (according to what I see as an adjusted 'feel' onsight, when going OK, dependent on my comparative skills and weaknesess, as indicated from grade standard routes: this is the way guidebook workers should grade in my view).

To be fair you're another consistent  UKC grader and the best grading comes from averaging the views of a number of such people (pretty much what we did in the BMC grit guides). We could do this really well everywhere in the UK if UKC attached names to grade views.

 TobyA 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler: Pedestal Crack (HVS 5a) was one of the earlier HVSs I did, definitely amongst the earliest I did on grit. Its quarried isn't it? I remember it being relatively straight forward for the grade, a bit like many of the Millstone HVSs like Bond Street.

I think Avalanche Wall (HVS 5a) was the first route I did at Curbar (or second maybe after warming up on PMC) on the day I came up to Sheffield to find a house to rent after I moved back to the UK a few years ago. I thought it was tough, but has the rep for being the easiest HVS on Curbar. Now a few years on I'd disagree with that as I found Sorrell's Sorrow (HVS 5a) easier.

Anyway, is it cracks you don't like?

 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Port Wine always used to be the easiest starred Curbar HVS (VS now in most guides). Green Acres the easiest starred E1 (now HVS in most guides). The Line is also really good, pleasant and in the easier half of HVS. Two Pitch Route is also a good lower half starred HVS (given VS  

Post edited at 17:08
 TobyA 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

I seconded Port Wine earlier this summer - it's almost a boulder problem isn't it? Tricky but all over quite soon.

In reply to TobyA:

I quite like cracks, it just seems that I don’t like them at HVS!

 

 Cake 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

If it is old classic routes you can't manage, then don't give up. They are often the best routes.

 

Everyone needs to tick some Brown and Whillans test pieces.

 Offwidth 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Coel Hellier:

It's the version I've seen most people do and it's the main topo line. What word would you use?

 Chris Murray 13 Sep 2018
In reply to deepsoup:

> TPS is only HVS if you can do it.  It gets E1 if you need to be rescued.

I led it comfortably when I was young and stupid, then needed a TR rescue years later. Does that mean I climbed an E1 or an HVS?

 krikoman 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> One of those "likes" is from me, btw


LOL, You've still got a better record than my "list" of HVSs

 deepsoup 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Chris Murray:

Tricky.  But I think you only get the E1 for your first go, so maybe you climbed an E1 and then failed on a HVS.

I led it comfortably quite a few times, used to do it every spring more or less and sometimes again later in the year.  Then on about the 8th or 9th go I mucked it up and fell off the crux.  Turns out the gear in the pocket protects that bit pretty well (in spite of what the old guide said, I suspect it always did).

I've done it once, with some trepidation, since but never been on it again after that..

 Duncan Bourne 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I was thinking of Quantum Crack at High Neb end HVS 5a

 Michael Hood 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

Green Acres difficulty depends on which pockets you consider to be on route at the bulge. The rightmost one feels like it's on...

Short Slab is very easy for HVS if you're happy with slabs.

Things like Pedestal Crack and Sorells Sorrow used to be VS which was fairly consistent with other routes at the time (Saul's Crack, Agony Crack, Todys Wall, Goliath's Groove, etc.) but they're all pretty much ok as lower half HVSs.

 Michael Hood 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

The Chant, it's VS 5a to lead and HVS 5a to solo without mats, if you know what I mean.

Andy Gamisou 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> The fails were attempted on Saturdays or Sundays with a massive hangover and the others were mid-week, booze free?

Brings to mind that famous scene from "Chariots of Fire":

Eric Liddell: "Ah'll no run on a Sunday."

 GB Olympic Association official: "Why ever not my dear boy?"

 Eric Liddell: "Cos ah always get pissed on a Saturday night!"

 

 (c) Injury Time, R4, circa 1982.

In reply to Offwidth:

> Pedestal Crack on Froggatt would be amongst the easiest 5% of HVS grit classics IMHO. The only obviously much easier one to me is Knight's Move which I think should be VS as the adjectival hardest bit (the start) is shared with a VS. This is despite UKC votes (like all the low in the grade  Stanage VS classics) putting it at mid-grade.

Sure but we can all have off days on any route so reading too much into any single failure should be avoided. I once failed on an HVS but immediately led a far harder route.

The route in question was VS 5a when I did it.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

>  reading too much into any single failure should be avoided.

 

Thanks, maybe I should have clarified in my OP that this was not something that even I have bothered to analyse! It was just a but of fun regarding the pattern of names! But it's always nice to see post-match analysis from more experienced climbers regardless of whether they know me or have ever seen me climb

 Offwidth 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I found the 'answer' really funny. In fact you should definitely avoid traditional route names in future, as its almost cetainly a cognitive bias  (seeing patterns that are not really there) and you risk spoiling the fun. 

Cognitive biases are also fun in their own way. There are so many ways these can affect climbing grades and many other unexpected things in life where people are convinced about something but wrong in their views.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

In reply to Blue Straggler:

So Resurrection = good, Left Wall = bad?

 

In reply to Offwidth:

> I found the 'answer' really funny. In fact you should definitely avoid traditional route names in future, as its almost cetainly a cognitive bias  (seeing patterns that are not really there) and you risk spoiling the fun. 

 

I am aware that now I have made my realisation in hindsight, I have created a cognitive bias for the future - however, none of those failures or successes were planned or contrived in the first instance. 

 Offwidth 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Can one plan cognitive bias? Is this a new entry on the list above??

In reply to Offwidth:

> Can one plan cognitive bias? Is this a new entry on the list above??

In this case I can see myself using the pattern as an excuse to either not get on certain climbs or to more readily back off them (i.e. "ah it's a wall/crack/slab/buttress name, no wonder I can't do it, I'll just retreat")

 Offwidth 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Ouch... has any super keen obscurist even climbed most of that list?

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Without even clicking on them, they sound awful

 Chris Murray 15 Sep 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

Fell off the crux of that years ago while soloing. Foolish of me.

 Bulls Crack 15 Sep 2018

HVS can be anything between VS and E3.

Not  true nowadays with modern guides, grade voting, grade creep etc

1
 Chris Ebbutt 15 Sep 2018
In reply to Bulls Crack:

Bloodshot (E1 5b)

still the same grade in the new guide, HVS?

chris

 JackM92 15 Sep 2018
In reply to deacondeacon:

Don’t understand why this post has got 3 dislikes! Personally I agree, hvs is a bit of a bogey grade for a lot of people, they get stuck at it as they never feel quite comfortable enough to move up to E1 and above. And a lot of that is because so many hvs’s are just awkward and hard.

 Jon Stewart 15 Sep 2018
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> HVS can be anything between VS and E3.

> Not  true nowadays with modern guides, grade voting, grade creep etc

I think it's still true. Lots of soft E3s out there that are easier than all the sandbag HVSs (e.g. Elastic Collision (E3 5c) easier than Brother's Eliminate (E1 5b)), and plenty of VSs that someone climbing E1/2 regularly will still fail on - in Northumberland, reputedly. 

Edit - looks like that HVS has been upgraded! Plenty more where that came from though, more or less, at Hen Cloud, Brimham, etc.

Post edited at 23:16
 TobyA 15 Sep 2018
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Edit - looks like that HVS has been upgraded! Plenty more where that came from though, more or less, at Hen Cloud, Brimham, etc.

I need to try it again but I think Tower Crack (HVS 5b) is actually about tech 6b... although I'm sure someone will come along and say they did it on washing line and in school pumps and it was mid-VS back then...

 

 Jon Stewart 15 Sep 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Good one. I tried it once but just gave up after about 10ft. I do like a good HVS crack (or E2 in NW sandstone grades), but there are limits to what is reasonable.

 TobyA 16 Sep 2018
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I was scrolling down the comments for Tower Crack again last night and it was actually quite reassuring, many many other DNFs and dogged ascents. I think someone suggests tech 7b!

 sn 17 Sep 2018
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think in particular it's worth avoiding HVS 5b if you want to depart with your ego untarnished - much better to get on an E1 5b, as it's probably easier, and if you fail on it, it was theoretically a 'harder' route..

 SC 17 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I don't know why but I skipped HVS and went straight to E1. For some reason I never fancied leading any HVS routes.

Back to leading HS now, after a long break from climbing and too many pies.

In reply to TobyA:

> I was scrolling down the comments for Tower Crack again last night and it was actually quite reassuring, many many other DNFs and dogged ascents. I think someone suggests tech 7b!

The 7b person also suggests E5

That is a cracking set of comments in the logbooks. 

And three VS claims at the bottom, from old people!

 Offwidth 18 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Its also been onsighted by plenty of ordinary E1 leaders. Too many modern climbers lack the skills for such beasts as they avoid anything awkward. Its still on my to-do-list (with the chimney) but my guess from talking to people who have done it would be somewhere around the E1/2 border and maybe 5c in a modern context.

 Dave Garnett 18 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

I feel a UKC challenge meet coming on.  I haven't attended one since the Vice.

 

 Offwidth 18 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Was consensus from that meet E1/2 5c? I meant to go that day but was heavily delayed and missed it.

 Dave Garnett 18 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

I don't think a split E-grade was ever on the cards!

 Offwidth 18 Sep 2018
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I dont mean a split grade, I mean a borderline E1 to E2.

 Dave Garnett 18 Sep 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

That's what I mean, but it's either top-end E1 or bottom end E2.  In this case the former!

 cheese@4p 18 Sep 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Newsflash - Following the recent UKC thread the HVS grade has been moved and now sits between E1 and E2.


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