UKC

2:1 or space hauling for heavy bags?

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 Kemics 13 Sep 2018

Heading back to try and climb the nose again, last time we really struggled with not enough water. Suprisingly we actually moved at a reasonable pace but got stuck behind other slow teams. 

So i weigh around 75kg and the haul bag will probably weigh 80kg on the first day. Is that heavy enough to justify 2:1 hauling? 

Im trying to work out if it will be that much slower? I understand it's slower than 1:1 hauling but if we are struggling to haul. Is efficient 2:1 quicker than battling a fat pig at 1:1? Or is 2:1 always just agonisingly slow. 

 dunnyg 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

We took loads of water, started out 2:1 then switched to 1:1. It is an effort thing, hauling always sucks, but one way will feel preferable at the time. It doesn't take long to switch between the 2. If your second is faster jumaring than your hauling you can use their weight too when they get to the anchor and go 1:1 using them as a counter weight. 

OP Kemics 13 Sep 2018
In reply to dunnyg:

Out of curiosity, what would you classify as loads of water? 

 dunnyg 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

I can't remember exactly off the top of my head. I think we had a gallon each a day plus a random assortment of non water drinks. I think we had 4 or 5 days worth of water and topped out with spare. I would try and drink more next time though. We fixed to sickle and then hauled to there, slept there, then took 4 days from there, so by no means a speed ascent. Didn't have any problems with other parties, but could have spent another day on the wall water wise. 

 summo 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

Do a 3:1 with the last turn come down towards you off an anchor with an auto lock at around shoulder height. You can use your foot to raise the back.

 philhilo 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

No point in waiting for a partner to arrive (and they will need to tend the bag on lots of pitches on The Nose) get the bag moving on a 2:1, with drag and efficiency losses it's not going to shift otherwise till its 60kg or less. If it's clean hauling get them to help when they arrive - but it saves no time if someone has to go free a stuck bag ( I know from experience!).

Water, we packed 2l a day each in late May early june and packed for a week and topped out - it's a big tick, don't worry about style, just get it done. You will get stuck behind other teams, and hold up some teams - it's the frickin Nose, the most famous big wall in the world. I reckon there were 20 teams with us, which is why you take a portaledge - there are sleeping spots (most are terrible tbh) otherwise it's musical chairs.

 David Coley 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

Hi,

some thoughts on hauling.

1. the more you do the easier it gets. This suggests that it does need practice, and there is some science or art to it. So practice.

2. I took awhile to get 2:1 to work well. I found it ok but a bit of a pain. I stuck with it and now find it THE way. Really practice adjusting your movement, stance and cord length.

3. big pulleys

4. do not bust a gut hauling. If it is that hard, you are doing something wrong. (I weigh 65kg)

5. 3 litres per person per day

 

 Fellover 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

You can definitely space haul that, but if you can get a 2:1 system working nicely that'll probably be more pleasant.

 ashtond6 13 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

I would say ignore comments about efficient pulleys, any 2:1 will be fine at the weights you are talking. If it's inefficient it doesn't matter as you are sending 160kg through it!

Then 1:1 haul after day 1. (You should have drunk and eaten 10kg minimum)

Don't even consider 3:1

Also, I did 3L per day and I was bloody THIRSTY the whole time. 4L is the ticket.

Post edited at 23:36
 philhilo 14 Sep 2018
In reply to ashtond6:

'Ignore efficient pullies', why? You could pull it through carabiners but it would be hard work. Get the system efficient, you get everything else efficient.  Research, buy the best kit, practice practice practice as David Coley said. Mm count, chord thickness counts, the exact carabiners count. Remember 60% of people bail. Ok for Americans, they come back next week, no big deal. It is a big deal for Brits. 

 ashtond6 14 Sep 2018
In reply to philhilo:

Because he will be using it for one day, when he will need an extra 10-20% pull.

I still mean use pulleys etc but no need to overcomplicate it for his requirement 

OP Kemics 14 Sep 2018
In reply to ashtond6:

Yeah we're taking min 3 litres a day. Last time (admittedly we got unlucky in may with a freak heat wave and it was 35 degrees) I drank 3 litres of water and did not pee for 24 hours because I was so dehydrated! 

Sounds like 2:1 is worth a go. Last time we space hauled 1:1, bag probably weighed 60kg and my harness left cuts/sores on my hips from hauling. 

 David Coley 14 Sep 2018

Not wanting to start an argument, but I really think the use of big, efficient, pulleys is highly beneficial. Ditto a thin static cord when applying a 2:1.

As some else said, for Brits bailing is best avoided because of the investment put in, both in terms of money and time. So it really helps if the whole thing is a pleasant experience when the unplanned happens - like being delayed by people of storm. I also think the approach for the strong and tough is likely to be different than for the weak, light and old (like me). This comes across in Chris Mac's book where he very much points at 1:1 and a light is right approach. For me, I like the vertical camping and the aid climbing of El Cap - I can go light, fast and free in other places: I have just fitted by ledge with fairy lights and a blue tooth speaker.

I have hauled the nose with a guy much bigger than me. We space hauled as a pair to sickle, then he used 1:1 and I used 2:1 until the last day, when 1:1 was easy for me too. I never over strained; I'm would guess it felt like a steep hill climb on a bike level of work. I haven't measured it, but I would say a 2:1 congo is about as gentle on the body as a 3:1 using the rope, but your body moves a less far as it is 2:1, so I guess less overall effort. 

If anyone has the kit at a sports science dept, I would love to measure work output for a human hauling through different systems - there must be an MSc or UG dissertation in that.

 

 David Coley 14 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

Hi, I know I have just said this, but dedicate a whole day in the UK to hauling with the 2:1 congo. The small adjustments really matter. Do clean hauls, and ones from ledges and ones with you almost hanging. It is a technical step up from a 3:1.

Carry the whole thing in a little pouch an read some of Mark H's stuff on MP if you haven't already.

When the bags are light, a 1:1 method I like is a micro-trax as the pulley, but then a grigri on the waist, rather than jugs. Sit, then stand whilst pulling rope through grigri with one hand (other hand on power point just to steady yourself, sit........ One can get a fast pumping sit-stand action going and the bag will fly up.

With the exception of counterbalance/space style hauls, I find it is much better if the feet and hands move as little as possible. I find moving the feet means I stand on ropes, or stumble on blocks; if the hands move a round a lot, I grab the wrong rope or thing, or fumble it. Hence the 1:1 as described above and the chongo get my vote.

Really hope you make it second time around!

 dominic o 15 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

There's plenty of good advice in the above responses, so just a couple of extra observations based on our recent trip up North America Wall:

We've always space hauled on the previous half dozen El Cap routes we've done together, but used a 3:1 system very successfully on NA Wall. This enabled my "lightweight" partner to make progress before I had finished cleaning, and as others have said, you've got someone around who can help the bags over overhangs. The 3:1 system we used was pro-traxion, pulley, inverted jumar, micro-traxion and grigri. Sounds like a Petzl advert, but it worked really well. There's a labelled schematic in my trip report at https://rockaroundtheworld.co.uk/2018/08/27/north-america-wall-trip-report/ 

3 litres a day in 35C is adequate but not comfortable (and we also had a beer each per night). Take water for an extra day and start relaxing rationing if you are on track (with queuing being the main issue on The Nose you'll have a good idea of traffic after a day or so)

Have you thought about taking a ledge - you obviously don't "need" one on The Nose, assuming you get to the recognised bivvy spots, and someone else hasn't beaten you to it, but it makes for a much more relaxed trip if you know you can just down tools and set up camp anywhere. 

Anyway, enjoy! and just keep plugging on through the crowds - they'll thin out as people bail or finally get the hang of it! 

 markalmack 16 Sep 2018
In reply to Kemics:

I would recommend space hauling as soon as it's possible. If you cant budge the load on a 1:1 try grabbing the haul rope coming up from the bag and pull upwards, or put a jumar on it unpside down to get it moving. 

Use all of the remaining lead line as your safety. Having this as long as possible means you can keep the bag moving for as long as possible keeping the momentum going. This is so much faster and easier than constantly standing up and sitting down with your 2:1 or 3:1 system.

Also i would recommend taking a tag line to pull the haul line up with the haul kit on. This makes such a massive difference when climbing (especially free climbing). V


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