UKC

When is a groove not a groove ?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 LeeWood 15 Sep 2018

Quote - Collins Eng dictionary

Groove: def6 : Mountaineering: a shallow fissure in a rock face or between 2 rock faces, forming an angle of more than 120°

 john arran 15 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

Nice try, but whoever wrote that obviously hadn't passed it by the UKC definition police first!

I think the distinction between a groove and a corner is sometimes to do with the openness of the angle (as above), but equally could be to do with the fact that a groove could be 90 degrees or so but facing neither left nor right, especially if it goes up diagonally rather than straight up.

 Webster 15 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

when it is a jig?

 GrahamD 15 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

To me a groove doesn't have to have a corner at the back of it.  A vertical gutter could be a groove

1
 mrphilipoldham 15 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

When it’s “no not that bit, over there, up that little bit then left and up there”?

OP LeeWood 15 Sep 2018
In reply to john arran:

Correct response: 'When it is a corner'. Well done John for being on topic.

When your mate shouts up to inform you where the route goes the distinction could be critical. Above the roar of waves I got 'climb the groove on the left'. This was just 2 days ago at Bosigran near the top of Raven Wall; having neglected the rehearsal, well chalked holds had led me out left to the point of ambiguity.

So I saw a big square-cut corner on my right and a groove in front of me - direction confirmed but sadly wrong. We had a choice of 3 topos that morning - if only we had chosen Rockfax which names the feature at all levels as a corner.

I had a few tremors on Evil Eye (as it turned out to be) but at days end no harm done - just a sadly missed opportunity to bag a classic route.

2
In reply to LeeWood:

Surely the difference that matters is how it might be climbed. To me a corner implies a crack in the back for holds & protection whereas a groove does not have a crack and the techniques are more likely to be bridging & handholds on the faces with probably less opportunity for protection.

7
 Toccata 15 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

When you climb a route at Cratcliffe using left hand only and claim ‘The Groove’ omitting that the line goes up  the groove rather than beside it.

 jb2006 15 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

I don't see that the angle is that important, a groove is just generally smaller than a corner - if you can bridge both aretes, its probably a groove. An open book corner or groove is called a diedre (or dihedral if you speak American)

 DancingOnRock 15 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

Usually near a cave with a pict and several  small furry animals. 

 SenzuBean 16 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

My feeling lines up with the dictionary definition. A corner is something you can generally bridge up, is roughly 90 degrees (+- 20 degrees), although really tight corners can be narrower and can be chimneyed. A groove is shallower (i.e. wider angle), and the word 'groove' doesn't really give away how you'd climb it (i.e. maybe it'll be face climbed, maybe a crack at the back but not necessarily so, maybe it's just a friction 'water runnel').

 bpmclimb 16 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

Anything from the vaguest elongated depression/scoop to a well-defined 90-degree corner. It's quite interesting hearing how various climbers would define it, but for practical purposes all that's needed is the realisation that there's wide variance in how guidebook writers apply the term.

1
 Luke90 16 Sep 2018
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

> To me a corner implies a crack in the back

Really? I've never interpreted it that way. Corners on climbs often do have cracks in the back but I've never considered that to be a part of the definition.

I've never previously considered the distinction between groove and corner very carefully but I'd be inclined to favour some combination of the openness of the angle and the overall width of the feature. A feature wide enough that you can't reach out of it with an angle around 90 degrees is definitely a corner. A narrow feature or one that's open significantly wider than 90 degrees tends towards groove.

In reply to LeeWood:

Isn't a corner a style of groove?

I think we'd all think that any 'V'  shaped fissure in the rock, regardless of angle of said 'V'(shallow, wide or acute, deep) as being a groove and not limited to 'V' shape either (the grooves up Devils Tower).

I would say a corner is generally accepted as being 90 degrees and I've heard of overhanging corners and slabby ones but a groove can be any sort of recess that is, to a lesser or greater extent, continuous (sentry box etc not being a groove)

In short a groove is what people think is a groove.

1
In reply to LeeWood:

I think in UK climbing terminology a corner is typically a clean-cut feature with quite smooth walls and a crack at the back, whereas a groove is generally smaller and shallower and without a crack at the back.

1
 summo 17 Sep 2018
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'd agree, but then you have the route 'groove above' which doesn't conform to any convention. 

I'd say grooves are shallow features, corners have sides which are much higher.

Corners are around 90 degrees.

Vs less than 90

Grooves more than 90.

Either way, when you see them you know what the description means. 

 Martin Bagshaw 17 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

When it has no rhythm to it?

 krikoman 17 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

When it's a flange.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I think in UK climbing terminology a corner is typically a clean-cut feature with quite smooth walls and a crack at the back, whereas a groove is generally smaller and shallower and without a crack at the back.

I've climbed corners without a crack in the back

In reply to LeeWood:

When it's an arete...?

 profitofdoom 18 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

It's complicated. I've been cornered and cracked up on several groovy slabs

 wbo 18 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood: isn't this rather a niche conversation?

 

OP LeeWood 18 Sep 2018
In reply to wbo:

possibly but it relates to the experience which is larger than niche; can someone put an estimate on all the time we expend researching routes - or even backing down to start again ?

Its a key skill notably for trad - to which I have shock-return (I'm usually on bolts). In a wider context I'm further reflecting on other aspects of time consumed by trad - finding the crag, setting up anchors, placing the gear, rope manipulations ...

Is it all worth it (presuming you have the choice) ?

 krikoman 18 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

When it's an armada

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> I've climbed corners without a crack in the back

Ditto. That's why I said 'typically'. They're quite rare though.

 oldie 20 Sep 2018
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Just rummaged in loft (I don't get out enough ) and found an Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Mountaineering by Peter Crew (1968). 
In full:
"GROOVE. A place on a cliff where two walls meet at an angle. When this angle is greater than right-angles the groove is sometimes called a shallow groove; when the angle is more or less at right-angles at right angles the groove may be called a corner; when the angle is much less than right-angles, the groove is said to be a vee-groove. In practice the terms groove and corner are applied loosely and are more or less interchangeable. A groove generally has narrower walls than a corner. The inclination of a groove can be anything up to vertical and even overhanging."
Blackshaw's Mountaineering "bible" (1965) has a section on "Open-book formations" saying they are defined approximately by the angle between the faces and their width: open or V-chimneys up to 60 degrees with faces usually no more than five feet wide; corners 60 to 120 degrees and faces may be very wide;  lastly grooves are over about 120 degrees with faces usually not more than about five feet wide and may be as little as 12 inches.
I suppose ultimately the terminology used is entirely up to the guide book writer(s) and, as another post said, its generally obvious what they mean.
 

 john arran 20 Sep 2018
In reply to oldie:

I'd find it hard to improve on Pete Crew's definition. Except, perhaps, to point out that Groove is usually used in reference to a feature lying within a bigger wall or face, whereas Corner could either be that or could itself be the junction of two bigger walls or faces.

OP LeeWood 20 Sep 2018
In reply to oldie:

> its generally obvious what they mean.

Fraid not - no discussion if this were true.

Given that 'corner' is a tighter definition when the groove is approx 90deg, then it obviously makes sense to use 'corner' for such instance.

 oldie 20 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

> Fraid not - no discussion if this were true.  Given that 'corner' is a tighter definition when the groove is approx 90deg, then it obviously makes sense to use 'corner' for such instance. <

IMHO probably "generally" it is true. The two definitions I quoted, somewhat tongue in cheek, are not in complete agreement and while it might be useful in theory to have an exact definition used by guide book authors this hasn't happened and all users would also need to have learnt the Climbway Code. Where there might be confusion the writer can say something like: "Climb the right hand of two grooves."

 

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 20 Sep 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

I don't like the use of 'corner' as it can be a groove or an arete!

Chris


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...