UKC

I don't think anything could more eloquently sum up the tragedy of Brexit; the putting up rather than tearing down of barriers:

https://www.ft.com/video/33264c1e-c744-4b24-bdb7-b89b09716517

So sad.  How can they lie so much?  How can they trivialise the Irish border by comparing it to London boroughs?  

Beautiful.

Perhaps it's just island mentality. Obviously Ireland and the UK are islands, many other countries in Europe have land borders on all sides, or several differing countries, hundreds of miles.. their positions have changed countless times, allegiances with neighbours/friends and foes. It's just part of their history and they aren't trying to resort to terrorism to redraw a border based on some distant point in history.

The UK and Ireland have but one short land border, so it becomes something that those near it probably place far more importance on than it deserves and those elsewhere in both countries don't really have any association with, thus giving it less importance than it deserves. It's like a novelty feature. 

Think of Switzerland surrounded by 4 countries, various trade deals, differing currencies through various decades, was neutral in ww2 like Ireland, mixed languages..  but their whole out look is vastly different. 

If I were you I would stop digging right now and hope that nobody ever notices this frighteningly irresponsible and hopelessly ignorant comment. Even better advice would be to delete it quickly while you still can.

It's not ignorance, Ireland and UK have been bickering since around 1167 when the Anglo Norman king sent an army there, because he thought the Irish generals were becoming too powerful.. It's a long tired history of fighting about imaginary lines on maps and ever so slightly different religions. But it's not any different to many other countries in Europe, whose borders have changed through the ages, be it the Scandinavian countries (Norway has only been independent around 100 years), Germany.. or northern Europe before WW1... but their populations are not stealth funding terrorism to try and change or maintain a border.

There is no novelty in people in London causing everyday chaos for people hundreds of miles away and across the sea.  There is no novelty value in risking a peace process that took years to negotiate.

This isn't just history.  People's businesses could fail if the border becomes an issue.  People died in recent living memory.  Lots of people.  Risking the current peace risks more people dying. It's fine for you to pontificate from elsewhere, this is real life, not some historic drama.  

FFS. Do you not realise that the EU emerged from the ashes of WW2 in the hope and dream that an end could be put to all that?

I used to think that a bit too much fuss was being made about the Irish border, but having visited Ireland for the first time this summer during the marching season and seen the endless flags and bonfires, I was astonished just how invisible it is; not even a roadside sign to show that you are leaving or entering the UK. With tensions still clearly simmering below the surface, just the symbolism (or rather lack of it) in the border is incredibly striking.

Your ignorance on the sociopolitical sensitivities between Britain and Ireland is astonishing. The Anglo-Irish relationship is delicate (yet much improved in recent decades), but has a bloody history. The border is a lethal division rooted in that history and should not treated lightly.

Your ignorance is shared by the likes of Rees-Mogg, Fox, Johnson & Davis.  I'm not sure if any of them know how delicate the peace is, or how wide the sociopolitical division could get - to all our detriment. 

I give up. Yes the eu rose from the coal and steel trade agreement, developed into benelux and onwards.

The border. Yes they are fighting over the past and to some degree religion. 

My point just like the rest of Europe, they need to move on. It's not the 1700, 1800 or 1900s or 1167.. what has happened is history and can't be changed. Of course there have been injustices, on both sides, but fighting about them will only add more to that list. Just like marching season provokes and antagonises. 

One side or both sides needs to give ground. They both can't have what they want. NI and Ireland need to move on. Blaming Brexit is good excuse, but even Brexit aside, they are not able to form a government in NI. 

As said above I have a reasonable grasp of Irish history etc.. but they can't change history so there is little point fighting over it. Plenty other countries in Europe have change hands so to speak... They are not at war, they've moved on. 

I give in. You can blame Brexit. But I personally think that it is solvable problem if BOTH sides show tolerance and put hatred aside. There are countless border options that could function and if the elected leaders put their support behind them publically the people will accept, rather than using them as a means to stoke conflict. It is quite irresponsible of politicians to use Brexit in this manner as they more than most should know the risks that it carries. 

Well, yes, obviously. But after centuries and decades of conflict and tensions, that is not happening and nor is it going to happen overnight. The Good Friday agreement is in a delicate state and the invisible border is an important symbol of that agreement - it cannot be taken lightly.

Thanks for posting such a powerful film. Unfortunately those that were stupid enough to vote for Brexit probably won’t have the intelligence to understand the Irish border implications raised in the piece.

You obviously don't. Really you don't. And its this exact hubris that is leading to Farage, IDS, Rees-Mogg, Fox, Johnson & Davis bungling the UK in to dangerous territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Preliminary_(1945%E2%80%9357)

"Visionary men such as Alcide De Gasperi from Italy, Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman from France, and Paul-Henri Spaak from Belgium understood that coal and steel were the two industries essential for waging war, and that by tying their national industries together, future war between their nations was made impossible"

Of course. Such an approach would solve every conflict everywhere; racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia, you name it. But there is a reason all these battlelines still exist.

This is part of the problem.  I too thought i was reasonably well educated on the whole Anglo-Irish thing, not only from my schooling but also from the news and library books long after leaving school.

It is only with dating and now being married to a Dubliner, and having spent large amounts of time in Ireland over the past 22 years, that i have recognised the limits of my own knowledge. I say this as someone vastly more knowledgeable about the Anglo-Irish relationship now than i ever was pre 1996.

Like many flash points, you really do have to live amongst it to get a handle on it.

I grew up 2 or 3 miles from where the video was filmed (Clady). I would pass through it as I went to the beach most summer weekends during the troubles (I'm in my 40s now). My parents car (with 7 kids in it) would sometimes be taken aside by soldiers and searched top to bottom somewhere in the complex they had installed at the border.

I'm worried that a customs differential will massively incentivise organised crime (paramilitary groups) and amongst other negatives mean that those border superstructures will likely come back. I know that this video probably won't change anyone's mind but the reaction to it reminds me that there's a substantial majority in GB that don't have the first clue about N.Ireland. 

Yes.

In 2002 I served on the border, in South Armagh. Life was far from normal for ordinary people. Fortified garrisons in nearly all the border villages. Police could not patrol or conduct public business without an accompanying 'multiple' of three sections of soldiers - 12 men - all armed.

Movement by security forces was either on foot or by helicopter, as moving by vehicle was simply too dangerous. Towns were watched relentlessly through CCTV and the watchtowers on the surrounding hills. 

While things at that time were perhaps more calm than at almost any point during the preceding thirty years, much was happening beneath the surface, and in little-reported stories. A peace was still being forged and then as now, it was precious and delicate: easily broken. 

Ulster and its borders were beginning to heal. The idiotic, careless meddling by many in Westminster threatens, belittles and demeans Ulster and all its people, in a way that almost defies belief. 

Yes. 

That would be good!

You don't get it. They are currently NOT fighting.

And just how did Europe 'move on'? Peacefully or through innumerable wars?

Are you talking about Ireland or Brexit here?

Your self-dug hole gets bigger....

Think of Switzerland if it had been brutalized by Italy for a couple of hundred years and when it got its freedom back Italy decided at the last minute to keep the Italian speaking part.  

Powerful testimony.

You sound like someone telling someone suicidal to pull yourself together.  Just get over it. 

Nice idea in theory.  

Wasn't he using it as an example of how he thought technology could be used to prevent a hard border?

There is no technology used to check travel between London boroughs.  

Having done your tour in ‘bandit country’ you’ll be well aware that the hard border was a result of the troubles and not the cause of them.

Are you suggesting that we’ll return to those times?

He was referring to the congestion charge into central London

The congestion charge is not a good example of how technology can solve a customs problem; the objectives of each are vastly different. 

You may well be right, but I took it as Johnson's way of (over) simplifying issues, in this case technology solving the border problem, rather than him trivialising worry or fear of an introduction of a physical border.   

Thanks for the context.  

It changes the comment but it doesn't really make it better.  I don't think I want to know if they don't care or they don't understand.  Neither is what I'd want of those in charge.  

Is it possible that having hard borders and searches and so on was a factor in the escalation of the "troubles"?  Is it possible that reintroduction of border control might set things off again?  

Of course not. That is a stupid comparison which I thought you were better than. These are educated populations, in a first world country. They must be able to see that there has to be give and take on both sides long term. Be it the political parties, or the sides on the Brexit negotiation. A workable compromise can be found if they put history behind them and give a little ground.

Yes, good in theory, hard in practice Without it though this problem will roll on for another 900 years. What is missing are strong characters like mo mowlam to sort them out. 

Causes and effect? The border was more open in the 50 and 60s than 70s after 1969 though. 

I think with modern tech there is no need for such a hard border regardless of the deal that's done. 

The hard border in the form of watchtowers, military bases, etc continued for years after the Good Friday agreement was signed.

While always contentious it was felt necessary to combat the continued terrorist threat and to support the NI police who continued to be targeted.

There’s a good article about the Armagh situation here - 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1410040/This-is-IRA-bandit-country....

Such measures were justified at the time. In my opinion. Despite the horrific disruption to ordinary people. The terrorist threat was very real. PIRA and other hard-line factions were well organised and wealthy, with extensive logistics (and intel) networks throughout NI and the Republic. Many atrocities were still-born as a result of the border policy. The ones that were 'successful' such as Manchester and Omagh, provide some justification in my opinion. Whether history will judge that to be true I don't know. I was just a squaddie.

I think that what was required to remove those measures, was what happened. GFA was a painful and fragile process, but required to bring the more vicious elements under control. 

The peace is still young yet. Much will be happening that goes unreported or underplayed. Paulguy was spot on in his comment earlier:

Paramilitary (of all stripes) = gangsters, absolutely. And they pray for destabilisation; they thrive on conflict, as so eloquently put in the shared film. 

That's actually pretty well-reported. 

Scary that it's years after the Good Friday agreement!

I think it's just the way with politics of conflict, especially such deep-seated and prolonged conflict. It takes a long time for everyone involved to recognise and respond to a new environment of 'peace'. Lots of painful history there, but thankfully not too much, or perhaps just enough, to make the realisation of GFA possible. 

Not wishing to be rude but that statement vividly illustrates your lack of understanding of Irish history.

Mick

Rude and ignorant.

But go on then Paddy, inform me!

Is that an accusation or an admission?

Sounds like the latter to me.

Correct.

I need to publicly apologise to Mick Ward for this post.

It is inexcusable.

Fair play for the apology,  Baron. You’re always one of the more thoughtful posters on here. 

With regard to the situation in NI, I’ve got little direct experience, but coming from Glasgow, some second hand insight, as we tend to recycle the conflict, though thankfully in less lethal ways. 

Summo’s suggestion everyone should just think very hard about how silly they have been, and then they should realise they need to play nicely with each other, is uncharacteristically naive. I think his analysis of the problem underlying the European project- that bringing together dozens of different nations each with strong identities and backstories of conflict with each other in the space of a generation is a massive ask, and probably doomed to fail- has a ring of plausibility to it, sadly.

yet when faced with another intractable problem, of conflicts over identify, resources, land and faith, which goes back centuries, and which is likely to take generations to entirely defuse, his response is, in effect, to say to the parties concerned,  just stop being so silly. 

Brexit shouldn’t risk rekindling the Troubles. But, because people are complicated and irrational, and don’t behave as Summo says they should, i think it does. 

Apologising for a racist comment is, well, better than not apologising. But making a racist comment is really not very good.

Yes. It appears out of character, based on his posting history; but it’s there in black and white, so to speak. 

Not good. But in the circumstances, a prompt and full apology, before it was demanded, is the best that can be made of the situation, and worth acknowledgement, even if it is just damage limitation.

If baron had called a Jamaican climber Sambo would you be so accommodating?

Accommodating? 

It was a grossly offensive and f*cking stupid thing to post. And this is off belay, not the pub. His stupid, racist and offensive post will be there forever, for everyone to see. Please don’t intepret my post as support for him. 

Other that for being prepared to come out and publically apologise. He could have just registered under a new pseudonym and hidden from the consequences. Which are real- as long as he uses this profile, he will be ‘the poster that called Mick Ward a paddy’. Catastrophic, in terms of forum reputation, and no one to blame but himself. 

Baron has apologised privately, by email, as well as publicly, on here, so I'm more than happy to draw a line under it.

Ireland does seem to inflame passions - which is why I live well away from it. Still yearn for the Mournes, Glendalough, Donegal, Kerry and would thoroughly recommend these peaceful places, along with Fair Head and the Burren. Irrespective of our long standing tribal problems, you'll still have a great time (even if it rains - and it probably will!)

Mick

Ok sounds like an end to the matter.

And for what it’s worth, re-reading my final post last night, it comes across as excessively blunt. Apologies for that; there was a point to be made, but I don’t think I got it right. 

The perils of posting after being in the pub... 

and, Ireland... it’s 20 years since I’ve been, other than a day trip to Dublin- but I remember being overwhelmed by the beauty of Kerry and Connemara. A return trip is overdue.

paramilitaries gained a considerable income not just from donations but from criminal activities including bank robbery and cross border smuggling.  The border allowed criminal activity to flourish and profit and the local warlords were in on it from the start.    Goes back decades and decades - there's even a Will Hay film from the 30s about smuggling and gun running (Oh Mr Porter)

I think this is the single most vile post I have ever read on UKC and I've been here a while. Feel free to hit "dislike" -- I'll consider it an honour if that's what I'm opposing.

Nice one. Very eloquent.

To those on here dismissing borders and barriers, isn't the EU the embodiment of what we should be trying to do; to rid ourselves of borders and barriers, if not the physical (I can see we need some borders if only for fiscal accountability) but mentally we should be breaking down walls and borders wherever we can. Celebrating sameness and diversity and promoting peace.

as well as promoting regional over global trade, as humanity and a host of other species need to help save this fragile, damaged and failing biosphere.