UKC

Hi.

At the boardroom at Mile End Climbing Wall two climbers were discussing the ethics of clipsticks. One said he said they kill the mental/psychological aspect of sport climbing whilst the other said she always uses one. The first said he was in Ceuse with one and European climbers gave him weird looks.

I propose a debate question....

Clipsticks - mental aspect killers and cheating device or a climber's most useful friend?

What do people think on this issue?

Sav

Ah,  the non controversy of using clipsticks. Look if I wanted to hit the floor everytime I fell of I'd go bouldering.

Exactly. Standard tool for sport climbing, which is not trad climbing. 

Yep, if you are going to do sport climbing it might as well be as safe as you can make it.

If you want a mental aspect then go do trad or alpine

In the interests of not splitting my skull open I'm quite happy to cheat when the occasion suits.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/like_i_need_a_hole_in_the_head...

Andy F

Don't own one but I'd happily use one. I'm happy to give up the mental/psychological aspect of reaching the first bolt on a sport climb.

Seeing what they pulled out of Horseshoe Quarry, I think I'd rather trust my own dodgy nut or cam than someone else's bolt.. at least I know my trad gear might be dodgy! 

Top rope or auto belay then?

To be fair, people on UKC routinely have debates about all sorts of things they've never done. It's never stopped anyone before!

I was innocently asking! Which got be a load of dislikes. Lovely!

An innocent? On UKC?

Innocent my foot, I bet you were positively salivating at the thought of the thread to come!

It's the way you tell 'em.     

Sounds like utter bullshit to me. Nobody who flogs their way up the hill to Ceuse has such a moronic opinion about the use of clip-sticks.

Sav, point him out to me and I'll tell you whether or not he's ever ventured beyond Portland.

Of course it's cheating. Bare feet, no harness, rope or chalk either... all are assisting you. Come to think of it, no route description either. 

A more ethically interesting question might regard the use of clip sticks to place trad gear. What do you think?

Oh yes!!

Whats your opinion?

I've used mine very little, although it always comes to the crag. I only use it to pre-clip if the route starts on a ledge and I'm worried about falling past my belayer, or the first bolt is a bit too high with some big moves to reach it. I prefer to climb up, clip by hand and then down-cimb where possible if it's a pumpy or sustained start as that feels more sporting.

I tend to worry about the second clip more, which I almost never preclip as it doesn't feel like a proper lead to me. I'd generally rather just climb something else, or practice the route enough until I feel confident enough to climb up to it without a clipstick.

I probably use my clipstick more to siege my way to the top of the route where I have been shut down between bolts.

Sports climbs should be just that. If you risk decking from a 2nd or 3rd clip with good rope technique its badly bolted and use of a clipstick is ethical. Preventable accidents when sports climbing, such as the one linked by Andy Farnell, are tragic.

Ever so slightly off topic but I've had a "panic stick" in my sports climbing rucksack for many years and never felt the need to use it.  The first time I did I slipped whilst trying to clip the rope in and fell a long way, breaking my ankle in the process.  I console myself that my judgement about needing the stick was correct even if the implementation was flawed

Al

I agree completely and suggest people read the article that Andy Farnell linked on his post.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/like_i_need_a_hole_in_the_head...

I know a couple of shorties who love their panic sticks. They're good for when there's an obvious hard move above a ledge, protected by a high bolt that a minority of people can't reach before doing the move.

Again thats bad bolting and use of a clipstick, if needed, is ethical. The fact some people call them panic sticks shows how stupidly macho climbing can be at times. There is enough risk in the variety of climbing games without pretending there are non existent rules as well. One of the great benefits of UKC is you can easily check up on what you have been told by  malign idiots who spread such daft advice (clip sticks are cheating, cams are not needed below E1, onsights only count with a continuous upward push, etc) 

I couldn't agree more. The term should be 'cheat stick'.

Funny until someone hurts themselves trying not to cheat.

I noticed very few clip-sticks at Ceuse whilst there a few years ago. I mentioned this to a local French climber. There opinion was that, as Ceuse was such an important crag, clip-sticks were frowned upon as they allow routes to be worked extensively and become worn out and polished. Other French climbers have said similar as well.

Obviously that argument could be used for any crag that is considered important and is also popular. Personally, if someone uses a clip-stick that's fine with me. I use one regularly where I consider a fall before the first bolt could be dangerous.

I haven't sport climbed or completed an indoor lead climb but I've set my sights on doing an indoor lead cclimbing course at a local wall. I did join in the conversation but I said very little.

"Panic" is actually the product name of the Beal one that I have. 

My wife took one look at it and demanded to know why I hadn't immediately purchased ten of them.

Silly me.  I thought it was called a "Panic Stick/draw" because that's what it said on the packaging. Seems reasonable to me to differentiate it from a Clip Stick which also gets called a Cheat Stick but hey ho it's not really that important is it.

Al

I was even advised to buy one for sport climbing - after I start it that is.

I can't see how it's cheating ?  Does clipping the first bolt somehow make the moves easier ?¿  

If it's about willy waving you should be climbing hard trad not SPORT ! ??

Jez.

IMO, I think the Clipstick is a useful tool and it has other roles ie brush handle and a camera stick. I do think they make sport climbing as safe a it can be.

Tbh, I have been advised to buy one - after I start sport climbing.

I call them 'oh shit sticks' as in:

'oh shit...

...that first bolt looks a bit sketchy to get to

... I've run out of talent (again) and can't get to the next bolt.

I don't see a problem using them but can see the argument about it being easy to work and damage route above your grade.

Define "above your grade".

In my world, sport climbing pretty much hinges on things being too hard.

Knowing it's not too hard would essentially make the execise pretty pointless. 

Hi Andy.

Great article.

After reading this, I am strongly in favor of them.

S

It's differentiated from a clipstick as its a different product. I always thought a panic draw was really aid gear to avoid highy sketchy moves to reach a good placement. I know its also used on sport climbs and I have no problem with that if it avoids an issue with bad bolting but I do share the concerns raised about Ceuse if people are dogging routes way above their ability with such tools.

https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/f38-aid-climbing/p420-panic

If I stick-clip up a 9a it's a fair bet I'll not have pulled on many (if any) of the holds. Where's the harm?

I always take one to the crack, to either deal with sketchy looking 1st bolts, or if the belay point is in a ledge or very uneven ground.

Once in a while I'll use it on a route to get the rope up so that I can safely work out the moves and go for the redpoint.  It's no more cheating than top roping or seconding a route another, better climber, has led for you first, and it's a great way to work harder routes and improve your grade.

Of course if I had a mate with me who climbs a couple of grades above me I'd not need it, but I often don't, and I'll always try and lead the route without the stick first.

Define "above your grade".

Where there's naff all chance of you getting up it, in this case so you keep slipping off the same foothold adding to the polish.

Use wisely.

If you use it to make sport climbing safe, and to get past stopper moves to get a better look at them it's a great tool. In fact an essential tool if you want to maximize your progress in redpointing.

If you use it to avoid falling when it's safe to fall, it can become a crutch that reinforces the fear, which will ultimately limit your progress and make the sport much less fun than it should be.

It all depends on the climb, the climber and the methodolgy. If you are adding polish to a classic with no real chance of a redpoint it is pretty obviously a bad idea to me. To be fair its not always the fault of the climber, at a lot of top French crags a lot of the dogging can be due to terrible sandbag grading on some of the fewer lower grade climbs.

Yep I was also referring to the product, as per what has already been said. Panic stick, panic draw, stuffy, whatever you want to call them. Good to clarify what people are referring to exactly before referring to them as malign idiots (whether that was directed at me or not).

Exactly. If you can do all the moves first time it's clearly far too easy.

What sort of time scale do you allow yourself?

Did McClure spend too much time on Rainman?

Has Mina Leslie-Wujastyk spent too much time on Bat Route?

I'm not convinced by that argument. What looks like polishing a classic to you may well be a personal Dawn Wall to another. I don't think current ability should be a block on ambition. Everyone should feel free have a Dawn Wall type experience. Classics get polished, denying the odd punter who bites off more than they can chew is just delaying the enevitable.

Thanks.

I've heard clip sticks called panic sticks and regarded as cheating even on dangerous starts to sports routes,  so no I wasn't getting at you. I think its part of the fact that Sport climbing as a game has taken huge amounts of unfair flack from some quarters in the UK in my 30 years of climbing (speaking as a predominantly trad climber).

I've had enough of faux 'personal Dawn Walls' in the punter grades. The damage to many routes and problems is utterly depressing. Good ninjas hardly do any damage, even when working routes (be that sport or redpoint). Comparing this to Mina and Steve is idiotic... sloppy footwork would mean they would have never got anywhere near trying such routes. 

Also if the first moves are on small crimps with a higher than average chance of snapping, as I once found to the cost of my elbow at my local crag.  

Thanks - I've now just spat my coffee all over my keyboard. 

Are we still talking about the polish on Raindogs or have you gone off on a tangent to your beloved gritstone Vdiffs?

Indeed. Say less, listen more. It's a leasson for us all.

This would be a very interesting topic!

Several years ago when my wife and I were sport climbing in Spain we met a climber who fell trying to clip the first bolt and he broke his heel. It took several years before he got back to climbing. We always take a clip stick when sport climbing but only use it when the first bolt is very high, and reaching it could result in a fall.

Agreed, it's a pointless waste of time sticking yourself up something that you've got no chance of making progress on

However, if I was at a crag and somebody told me I've no chance of getting up the route and I'm adding unnecessary polish I might find a new use for the stick

Have clip sticks made any tangible impact on the polish of classics?  Well there's no real data on this, but I'd guess not as the amount of clipstick assisted ascents is small compared to those where the stick hasn't been used.

Let's be honest, it's likely pure numbers that make routes become polished.  

You could also argue that the use of a clip-stick leads to a quicker, cleaner redpoint than the trial and error ground-up approach, where there's likely to be more falling involved.

Good point, hadn't thought of that...

Spot on about being told what to do by people who haven't even seen you climb!

I don't think you are right about erosion though. Polish relies on movement and is enhanced by a polishing agent. Dirty feet massively increase erosion. Climbers with great footwork polish much less than those with terrible footwork.

I am strongly in favour of chapsticks - keep the lips moist even on freezing dry winter days

Oh, sorry, chopsticks - my mistake - I think they're great for Asian food

Oh aye you're right on that, for sure... I guess I was just thinking that sheer volume might outweigh poor tekkers...  I may well be wrong on that though?!

Dead roight about polishing agent too as anyone who has ever climbed with me would roll their eyes at, I obsessively wipe my feet before getting on a route.  More grip and less polish!  

To his and hers own.

Personally I like to use them to clip the first bolt (and second if crux start) to make sure I don't deck. Why you wouldn't is beyond me, I like my bones as they are.

My second use would be to get the bolts in something considerably harder than I'd be able to climb, so I can work moves without constantly taking falls on my ropes.

Personally, I find it quite an underwhelming experience to preclip the first two bolts if the crux lies below the second bolt, since the crux would be top-roped. I'd rather practise it on top rope a bit more and just clip it ground up. It just wouldn't feel like a genuine lead for me. I've pre-placed a longer quickdraw on the second bolt in the past if the bolt looked a bit too high relative to the first. That's just me though. People can do what they want. Whatever floats people's boat. 

I was recently climbing in Berdorf, Luxembourg. I was using a clip stick to get the draws in a route quickly to then have one redpoint burn, another English couple were likewise using a stick, in her case to just clip the first bolt. We were both laughed at and ridiculed by a group of middle aged Germans who you’d think should know better.

The English woman gave the Germans a few choice F offs, bravo to her.

The German group ruined the ambience at the crag.

My stick, my ethics, my fun.

Dan

Hi Dan.

I totally agree about your fan, stick and ethics.

What a bunch of fun killers those Germans were.

Good on her!

By the way, your name sounds familar.

Did you work at RockOn in Mile End or Guildford?

Sav

I agree with you.

I once had a member of a group who were trying to top-rope a F4+ loudly accuse me of cheating when I pre-clipped the first bolt of the F7c route I was trying.  

(They weren't German btw)

Nothing wrong with a princess clip. No prize for broken ankles.

I would mainly use it for reaching the first bolt. At a wall I have seen people spot a lead climber getting to the first QD.

Yiassou. 

In regards to the group member....

What a giant douche!

Antios

Is not one person going to throw petrol around by suggesting that sport climbing is just practice for proper climbing so therefore there are no ethics and who cares if it all gets polished......

*Throws liberal ammount of unleaded around whilst casually lighting a marlboro*

The French are known for their ability to construct a rational argument. This is not one of them. 

Ceuse has a noble tradition of engagé - ‘sportingly’ bolted - sport climbs. The exciting but safe run-outs on Blocage Violent are an integral part of the experience. Using a clip-stick to neuter them is just not cricket. 

A friend for sport, a bit like a cam for trad ????

Groundhog Day ?

(Ps. the offer still stands here in Sheffield )

How old are you. This makes you sound about 12.

There are some crags that I personally view them as an essential safety tool. Of course not everyone would view like that but each to their own.

e.g. LPT, the first bolt is quite high and the rock quality due to tides can be a bit dubious. I've broken holds there on warm ups in a very unexpected way and if I hadn't preclipped I would have taken a nasty fall from 2-3 meters straight onto the rocks below. 

A lot of routes at Kilnsey for example have cruxes straight off the ground and I would just generally not want to launch into powerful sequences risking falling from a few meters onto the ground. I am sure there are many other examples at sports crags where you would rarely see people not preclipping. 

Each to their own, but I have no desire to risk breaking my ankles when I sport climb (or ever really..).

On the other hand, when I climbed at Arco and El Chorro, I had a clipstick but barely used it. Friendly first and second bolts, combined with a style of climbing which tends to not involve cruxes close to the ground, basically made it obsolete. 

The routes can get polished - that’s rich in France !! All the mid to low 7s are already polished to a mirror like lustre anyhow. Don’t even get me started on pof ! Oh, and I also don’t get how someone can stick a line of bolts somewhere and get to name a route ? It’s not a route until someone’s climbed it right? 

You mean start climbing - period !

Well for sport but it can be used as a brush handle for bouldering and can be used as a camera stick. How can it be used for taad though?

I know where you are coming from.

They are both a useful tool and cheating. 

If you are working a route they are a perfectly reasonable friend/assistant till you get the moves through the early bolts wired. 

On a redpoint things are rather less clear. If you are going to fall off a ledge into a fall factor 2 situation they are probably advisable for clipping the first bolt.  However, anyone who thinks preclipping one or more bolts doesn't make the climbing easier is kidding themselves.  The difference in overgripping and the strength used stopping and clipping the first bolt could be the difference between success and failure on a marginal redpoint.

If you want to be sure you haven't brought the route down to your standard, don't use one on the redpoint, if you don't care (or if you KNOW that the route is ALWAYS done with a preclip) use one.

This comment is a bit depressing. What are punter grades?

Haha. LOL

I'm forty years old. 

They use douche quite a bit in The Big Bang Theory and I think the four main characters are in their mid thirties now. 

Very interesting points of view.

Not using clip sticks to avoid excessive polish - that’s interesting. Not sure it really makes sense. If I can’t figure out a sequence easily, I might clip stick the next bolt and figure it out on a top rope. Chances are it would take me less goes. Plus I would be less tired so likely to figure out the remaining sequences quicker. Hence arguably using a clip stick actually reduces time spent fumbling around trying to get the moves dialled and hence less polish. I suspect in reality it makes little difference overall. 

Edit - having read a few more comments, presumably the concern is around people being able to work routes which would otherwise be too hard for them. That’s just elitist and misses the point of sport climbing being meant to be hard. Do you think this is what the locals had in mind?

The main benefit of clip sticks though is making the climbing up to the first or second bolt safe. Can’t really argue with that I think.

I reckon in the future, if you refer to "moot point" in a dictionary you will find a screen-grab of a mountainspirit thread..... entirely hypothetical discussions of climbing ethics for a non-climber.

Do you think marking holds on boulder problems with chalk is cheating to?

Offer: I know and I have it in mind.

In the UK sport routes are often very cruxy, or have hard moves near the ground. Using a clip stick to get the gear in saves energy for working/redpointing the route or stops you hitting the deck before the first/second bolt. It's not cheating, it's part of the current ethics. 

Would you say bouldering mats are cheating and we should all go back to beer towels and ruined ankles?

Andy F

I agree with you about sport routes in the UK and the current ethics.

No I don't think bouldering mats are cheating and we definitely should NOT go back to the days of beer towels and ruined ankles.

Sav

People rap down a crag, hang around with a power drill, put in a whole slew of bolts from aid positions, trundle all the loose rock, then rest on every other bolt when working out the moves, and seriously with a straight face speak of cheating?  Wow, that's some seriously contorted mental gymnastics!

For the first time ever on UKC I think, I don't agree with you. Sport climbing is a contrived "game", so no reason why the rules shouldn't be contrived too. As it happens, I think the "rules" allow, pretty arbitrarily, a couple of bolts to be preclipped with a clip stick.

Lol. Lmho

Do you also think that having the draws in is cheating? Definitely some effort required putting those in that could be the difference...

My comment, which was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, comes from a trad perspective, in which case practically everything in sport climbing is cheating, and the decision of what particular types of cheating constitute "success"  define the rules of the game.  Tee hee.

What does this mean? A lot of things make the route easier, the main one is practicing the moves, possibly for months or years on end. That more than anything reduces the difficulty. Even the you can't just bring a route down to your level, you still have to be good enough.

Clipping the first first bolt (or two) for safety reasons shouldn't be seen as a problem, and nobody should feel under pressure to ditch the clipstick to get the full tick.

Presumably, the person that bolted the route in the first place thought about where the bolts go and, in a sense, manufactured the route. Pre clipping means you didn't do the route the way they intended, in fact you made it easier and so pre clipping is a bit of a cheat. Whatever that means.

Of course the person who bolted the route to start with may have made a pure arse of it in which case it should be re bolted. However if someone finds themselves using a clip stick or a step ladder( don't see much difference) on every other climb, perhaps they need to think about it a bit.

Hard to "read point" I hear 

I don't actually give a sh!t what the first ascentionist thinks, or what they intended. I'll clip whatever I like to make sure I don't hurt myself. If more people gave less of a sh!t what others think about their climbing (which is just a personal thing at the end of the day) then I think we'd all be in better place.

You really can't see the massive difference in a clipstick and a step ladder?

Both just as useful

I think you are perhaps over-thinking what might go through an equipper's mind when they establish a bolted route.  I'd be a bit surprised if they are especially concerned about whether an attempt on a route is pre-clipped or not.

Umm - you still have to actually do the moves if it is pre-clipped, not so much with a step-ladder.  

They really don't. 

More often than not (in my experience) the quality of the rock on the route can dictate the bolt placements. The first ascentionist  wants the bolts in the best position for both the first ascent and for future ascents but quite often this isn't possible. I often take into consideration that repeat ascents may or may not be done with the first or second bolt pre clipped with a clipstick.

Totally different uses.

I've just thought about it again and still don't give a sh!t.

I wasn't suggesting a step ladder as aid, rather as another convenient way of clipping the first or second bolt.

Fair enough but my experience is different.

Clip sticks are generally lighter, more compact and don't need relatively stable ground to put them on. 

I'm sure some FAs have bolted routes and used clip sticks themselves. 

Your presumption shows a bit of lack of knowledge of why people place bolts where they do, I´ve climbed at areas where one can clip the first three bolts without leaving the ground (the installer was paid per bolt by the EU) and my home area it is traditional to place the first bolt around 8m from the ground ( a lower fall wouldn´t be fatal) and there is everything in between. We don´t bolt outdoors like a climbing wall, as long as you don´t hit the ground it´s all top-roping anyway and if someone wants to use a clip-stick for the first bolts it´s their decision.

Go on then, tell me why people place bolts where they do.

In a number of places in the US, for example Red River Gorge, equippers are increasingly placing the first bolt quite high on the assumption of clipstick use. This is good - safer and cleaner - and cheaper.

Where bolts are placed varies with the rock, the local style, the whim of the installer, the finance available, how big the drill batteries are and whatever else comes up. Plenty of places have realised that the first two bolts would rarely stop a groundfall so leave them out and expect you to stick-clip.

Objective danger is a feature of trad and alpine and winter climbing.  It isn't a feature of sport climbing.

Adding gear that reduces the objective danger of trad changes the adjectival grade of the climb (eg side runner or preplaced gear) and should be honestly reported  (the last time I did this I knocked off 1/2 an E point on the grounds I could easily reach the side runner from the line and it made me feel better but was ultimately useless as it was a purely psychological runner and possibly made the fall worse...).

Adding (or subtracting) gear that changes the objective danger of sport climbing doesn't change the grade and doesn't change the tick.  If you do something that makes things easier (aid up the first bolt, leave the clips in, dog or rest on a bolt, extend a runner, avoid a hard clip at a crux move) then you shouldn't deny it any more than a side runner in trad. But simply preventing broken ankles with a clip stick is fine and no one should hesitate before reaching for a clip stick.

Where do you get these ideas from? 

Objective dangers are things like avalanche and weather risks.. those not controlled by the skills of the climber. These are normally very low in trad. You are muddling them with subjective risks (that which a climber can control with skill) 

A runner you can reach without moving sideways from a trad line is a runner not a side-runner.

The aim of a sports climb is to lead climb the route from the bottom to the top without falling. Its got nothing to do with tricky clips at a crux, you can miss them out. If you aid to the first bolt you simply haven't done the route: its not a style point you have to be honest about in your ascent (like say you fell on an trad onsight, pulled the ropes and got it second go, so claim it as a ground-up)

Although I can think of many people who are scared to fall on sport routes and regularly rest at bolts rather than risk a fall between bolts. So while there may not be a genuine objective danger there may sometimes be a fear that such a danger exists. I actually know people that struggle more with sport than with trad. Cracks you can often lace for example whereas a sport route might limit you to four bolts. 

I think maybe you're focusing too much on the UK grading system here as it's the only system that uses a proper adjective grade for trad. Therefore justifications based on how a grade changes is limited by the grading system that is being used.

Me personally, I ask myself whether I am making the route technically easier by pre-clipping, so it's less about adjective danger. If the crux is near the start of the route then that's likely to be yes. There's a route that I tried a few years back that I can do on top-rope but can't stop at the crux holds to clip the key bolt. I could pre-clip the bolt but I know that I would be making the climb about as hard as it was on top-rope as it was quite cruxy. I've not bothered to attempt the lead because I know I would just be cheating myself by saying that I had led the route. I'll happily take the top-rope tick and cut my losses. In a nutshell people can do what they want so long as they are truthfull to themselves and others.

As others have said, the mental aspect of reaching the first bolt on a sport route is a pretty negligible part of the experience. If you want head-games, put the gear in yourself. 

As for trad:

What are the thoughts on Baron Greenback where first ascensionist used a massive rigid draw to clip a bolt?

How about when I'm just out of arm's reach of a thank-God tree and I chuck a Krab on a sling over it for pro? 

I'd disagree with that.  I'm no less scared of falling on a bolted route than I am on trad.

Negligible part of the experience, not that it is negligible in itself. Sport climbing isn't about being worried you'll deck, whereas trad is to an extent.  

I agree its what it should be but it isn't like that for me.  I find the anticipation of falling just as frightening in sport and trad (assuming that I've made a sensible choice of trad route of course).

Then you have my abject apology good sir!  Although, to temper my apology, I'd not necessarily view dragging around a step ladder as especially convenient

As a recent purchaser of the new ultra compact Beta Stick, I too would challenge the "convenience" of carrying a stepladder to the crag.

Careful using the last section of it - it doesn't half snap easily.  

Really..... I’ve just bought one too. Have you snapped one? 

Yes.  I occasionally use it to self belay myself to the top of something prior to working the route on a shunt.  I once didn't quite fully retract the stick when I abbed back down and it hit he ground fairly lightly and snapped off at the thin bit at the end.  Gaffer tape sorted it though, and it actually works better for clipping high first bolts (less bendiness), although it is a few inches shorter.

No problem Andy.

When writing my post I recalled a crag near Edinburgh where the bolts had been placed with the help of a tape measure. However the bolter, who shall remain nameless, didn't account for slack/stretch so falling while clipping the second bolt was something to be avoided. I can think of another crag which has a route in which a phuq up on the second clip could result in hitting the ground. However in that particular quarry one can drive a car up to the bottom of the crag and so one could save oneself the expense of a clip stick by taking your step ladder with you.

Regarding other comments above. I think Big Someoneorother hit the nail on the head. How you climb a route is up to you but you should be honest with yourself and others about how you actually did it.

What are you on about? objective danger is a very real part of  (some) trad climbing and a very normal part of the adjectival grading system (as you well know) so take for example:

The End of the Affair (E8 6c)

or at a more punter level

Sunset Slab (HVS 4b)

You're log book may be replete with safe routes but falling and trad don't usually go together in the same way as falling and sport.

An objective danger (if you are still confused) is one that:

(a) might actually happen

(b) might actually be dangerous

Falling on no gear or crap gear definitely falls into this category! and yes they can be controlled by the climber sometimes (ie I won't climb that it looks sketchy) but also just happens sometimes (shit that "bomber" nut has dropped out and now I'm 10m above a cluster of shit with the ground rather too close). 

You are the one that is confused, your definition of "objective danger" is nothing like the normal climbing usage of the term. 

He's "on about" what has always been the normal climbing definition of the term, which is hazards arising outside the climber and beyond his or her control, such as things falling from above.

The Oxford DIctionary agrees with him:

The climber falling off through his or her own mistake or lack of ability is not external and not beyond their control, so not "objective".

Er, no. Placing crap gear in what could be a good placement, or screwing up your ropework in such a way as to pull it out later, are both under your control.

I'm not suggesting falling off badly protected climbs isn't hazardous, but it's not an "objective hazard" in the normal climbing use of the term.

I feel duty-bound to remind the fervent contributors to this thread that the OP has reportedly never lead any route ever, with or without a clipstick.  Do. Not. Feed. The Trolls?

 "If you do something that makes things easier (aid up the first bolt, leave the clips in, dog or rest on a bolt, extend a runner, avoid a hard clip at a crux move) then you shouldn't deny it any more than a side runner in trad....."

Or have a rope from above.

Sav was merely starting a (highly successful! ) discussion.  He didn't claim to have experience of it. 

No way is Sav a troll. He's genuinely interested in (passionate about the idea of?) climbing in all of its aspects, but has to deal with a very big handicap with respect to putting his wishes into practise (sorry Sav if I've got this wrong). I'm sure that the great majority of posters here would take great pleasure in taking Sav out for a day and helping him to achieve a small part of his ambitions.

I think it’s generally accepted that having the clips in, extending quickdraws and skipping the odd bolt is perfectly acceptable and doesn’t change the grade of a sport route. 

But you'd admit that your attitude is unusual.

You are not overly familiar with UKC if you aren't familiar with Mountain Spirit

I am very familiar with Mountain Spirit's ouvre, which is why I find threads such as this a little exasperating.   I'll leave you all to it (and perhaps  wait for the next thread where he arranges a day of climbing with a well-meaning soul, then after protracted and painstaking arrangements, cancels at the last minute).

"I think it’s generally accepted that having the clips in, extending quickdraws and skipping the odd bolt is perfectly acceptable and doesn’t change the grade of a sport route. "

I agree and I also think this applies to clipsticks. I was just thinking of exceptional cases.

It is objective risk if it is real (possible and dangerous)

It is subjective risk if it is perceived but not likely or dangerous

Some trad contains objective risk and like the mountaineering risks you mentioned  can only be avoided by not climbing the route.

I'm not sure it is.  My regular partner has the same mindset, for instance.  The widespread mindset that its ok to fall off on bolts is, I think, a relatively recent one.

Most of us have dreams that are a little beyond our ability to make into reality.

I'd love to aid up El Cap but feck me, to make that happen... well, let's just say Kalymnos sport seems like a more sensible option.

Mountain Spirit is the ultimate armchair climber.

As such, posting on UKC would seem like the most natural place in the world for him to be.

Personally, I think we should form a posse, travel to London, kidnap him and force him to toprope a Diff at Stanage.

After the autobelay failure we saw on Saturday doubt they would rate as safe.

Unless there was a high chance of ground-falling I wouldn't clipstick the 2nd. It's only really until the move is wired. If I'm uncertain then what's the point in risking a broken ankle ???????

Yes, I understand that that‘s the definition you‘re personally using. You appear for some reason to be unable or unwilling to grasp that it isn’t the normal definition other people use

Well if that's what the guidebook grade was set for then fine but I assume you're not going to suggest that clipping the bolts on the lead isn't going to make the climb harder.

On a couple of my woefully small set of half decent "sends" clipping some of the bolts has pretty well been the crux.

Having the 'draws in place would have at one time been considered cheating. Similarly stick-clipping the rope up a couple of clips. Times change. Those who practice sport climbing have for the most part agreed that certain traditional uk sport climbing practices dating back to the pink Lycra, Ben and Jerry era were a bit silly and/or dangerous. What constitutes a legit tick has evolved. Yes, for any given grade the new rules make things a bit easier.

In the future, as we become even more risk averse, I've no doubt leading will become unfashionable and the toprope tick will be all that's required to receive the accolade of your peers.

all that's required to receive the accolade of your peers.

I think you have summed up, for me a least, how climbing has been changing over the decades. My philosophy has always been that I climb for myself because I enjoy it, not to try and impress others......

Well to me it does seem like a logical progression. Why bother buying all those quickdraws and a clip stick when all you need is a big sling, a rope brake if some description and a harness. No more drilling holes in the rock either.

I agree but can you not admit to at least a little smug satisfaction when you have just climbed a hard route (hard for you and your peers that is) and they say "you made a good job of that".  I'll admit it, even at 70 years old, there are still a few remnants of declining ego still in tact. 

Al

That bit was a bit tongue and cheek.

Most of us have an ego hidden somewhere. Consequently, sport becomes competitive but I hope few of us NEED our latest 7a tick to impress anyone; that would seem a recipe for disappointment.

I've climbed with my young daughter at Portland, Malham, North Wales.

She's able to climb low-7s at most of those areas, but as she's too young to belay me, at those grades I would not send her up any lead climb, at Malham especially, without clipping the first bolt.

Clip-stick essential, nothing to do with cheating or not.

Cheers

Amazing she climbs in the low-7s!

Do yo know the route Yosemite Wall? 

She should try for a place on a squad at a wall!

Sav

Maybe, although that assumes easy access to the lower-offs (not the case where I climb) or dogging up the route to establish the toprope - which is a PITA.  Rather just lead up personally.  Anyway, falling off is half the fun (sometimes more than half the fun).

I've found that none of my climbing ever impresses anyone, so I don't really know what I'm doing wrong.

The secret is to take cliched photos of well trodden trade routes.  Then other people who have done the same thing will be respond positively as it validates their own achievements.

See also: That Photo of Buchaille Etive Mor.

Re Ceuse.  There were a few clipsticks in use this summer but most of the routes don't really need one to be led safely - there's often an 'extra' bolt at the bottom to protect the initial moves.  I've been to plenty of other crags where they feel essential.  I suspect you'd make yourself extremely unpopular dogging up a classic route there with one, but that's only because there's typically a queue.   

Lol

I agree. 

Lmho.

I agree.

Hi.

I have only seen him at the wall once.

Will do next time he is there - mainly fingerboards in the boardroom.

He has told me he has been to Malham Cove and climbed F7a a few times.

Sav

Thanks.

A highly successful one that has become a very interesting one.

Hi,

Thank you.

One reason is my dad doesn't like climbing fullstop. 

Sav

Some people when bolting routes put the first bolt quite high because they expect you to use a clip-stick

Really! Wow!

Polished wise. I have heard people say that  Raindogs is polished and you need new and clean shoes to do it ( aswell as power endurance, finger strength, food footwork, body tension etc). 

In regards to the grit VDiffs, IMO, it depends on the crag - people are saying routes at Stanage are becoming more and more polished but I have no experience of it so I am just stating what I have heard and read.

Grit V Diffs do get more polished with time but the difference is normally so small as to be almost unnoticable. The vast majority of polish on Stanage lower grade climbs was caused by nailed boots more than 60 years ago.  Still, when you finally do some climbing outside, keep those shoes clean.

Will do.

How about, use the stick if you feel the need.  If you prefer not to, then don't.

Hopefully we all enjoy ourselves while keeping safe and sound x

I agree with you.

To understand your dislikes (I'm one) you need to carefully read Sav's profile and the link he provides. Have you done that?

On this occasion Sav has generated a long and rather interesting thread. 

I'd contrast that with the OP of the recent thread on bolting multi-pitch mountain rock climbs in the UK. IIRC that was posted by someone who has no UKC profile at all.

Martin

I know about Savvas. His profile used to be longer. 
Of course I understand my dislikes, I never said I didn't and nor did I actually complain about them. 
I say again that my question was asked innocently and earnestly. 

Haha. Lmao.

You will have to find me first. 

Sav

A really interesting question. Most of the comments here seem focused on clipping the first or first and second bolt. Another use of clipsticks is higher up on routes to avoid runouts and aid working a route. Used in this way I think it's quite possible for them to kill the mental aspects of climbing. That is someone can clipstick up a whole route work all the moves until they're confident of redpointing the route without falling (like doing a serious headpoint) and then do it. Taking lead falls is a big part of doing hard routes (hard relative to one's ability). If you never take them you're never going to be much good at it and will find the psychological challenge of routes much harder.

The use of clipsticks is surprisingly accepted here in Britain given the long history of trad and appreciation of bold climbing. I think there are several reasons why we use them more than any other country. Firstly as most of our climbing is trad many climbers have little experience of bolted climbs and don't know how to bolt properly. Secondly our trad legacy leads some people to make our sport routes deliberately high risk challenges with high first bolts seen as part of the challenge. Thirdly much of the sport climbing in this country is on lower quality rock that's often fractured and so even for climbers who know how to bolt routes they are restricted in where they can place bolts. Related to this is the fact that holds often break off. So whilst the route may have been bolted well at first the disappearance of holds can make the bolts that much harder to clip. So the use of clipsticks here seems pretty reasonable and accepted by most climbers.

Using clipsticks abroad is a whole different thing. Climbing in France or Spain the rock is usually immaculate and those who equip routes know what they're doing so the vast majority of routes are bolted in such a way as to be perfectly safe to climb ground up. I'm not surprised the continentals take the piss out of Brits stick-cllipping their way up routes sometimes. I think climbers who learn to sport climb here with clipsticks don't appreciate why they're much less used abroad.

What a brilliant and indepth reply.

In Britain we do have a long history and appreciation of hard and bold trad like the famous gritstone people love so much and bold sea cliff routes.

Sav

Apologies if someone has already made the same point - I have no intention of reading all the posts on this thread.

High standard sport climbers routinely clip the first bolts before starting. Just a quick selection of UKC videos.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=4237

https://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=3795

https://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=3621

https://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=2635

etc, etc. It's not trad, it's sport climbing.

Oddly enough, while I’ve used my clip sticks to set up top ropes and work the moves on numerous routes, I don’t think I’ve managed to get one done on the first lead attempt. 

So no, even clip sticking your way up does not mean that frequent flyer miles won’t be earned. It can how ever mean less time spent working on it.

Isn't sport climbing cheating anyway?

Well, you could argue that!

Could the same thing be said for aiding routes like on Big Walls and headpointing hard grit?

Some truly creme de la creme sport climbers in that selection.

Also some top quality sports routes at the advanced level end.

I havent seen the videos themselves but just clicked on the links to see what they are about.

Sav

I'm quite surprised you tie those thoughts together to that conclusion, if I'm honest.

- of course most climbers don't know how to bolt, but neither do most climbers anywhere. I don't really buy the idea that route equipping here is always amateur compared to what you get abroad. There are always exceptions, but most UK routes are bolted fine and there are occasional bad apples.

- are there really that many designer runout sport routes these days? Which are you thinking of?

- yes, some of our rock is shattered. But I've seen relatively few places where were saying the bolt is so badly placed or so unavoidably spaced that a clipstick is in reality more than a convenience response most of the time. A bit awkward to clip or slightly in the wrong place, sure, but hugely so? If this were a cause, clipsticking would be an occasional response to get a long draw in or something, not a commonplace thing?

The worst place I've perspnally seen in the UK for the whole clipstick, toprope and siege mentality is Malham. Most of the routes aren't run out and if we're defining Malham as shattered then God help the rest of our sport venues. It's just become what people do, people want big ticks and the climbing is fiddly - a clipstick saves a lot of time on intricate rock in a way it doesn't on obvious lines of pockets.

For what it's worth, first bolts aside, I try to avoid using a clipstick to work sequences on hard routes where it's feasible (I'm not saying I don't, just that I try not to) because my personal experience is that my mental game for onsighting suffers if I only do hard moves with the rope already above me .

The main reason isn't the falling, it's just more efficient for me to sit on the rope, try to spot all the hand hold and foot holds. Saves energy and skin, and gets more out of a session. I get tired quickly on hard stuff, so it's a good strategy.

Does that bother you?

I'd say almost eveything stp claims is unsubstantiated or exaggerated. A very poor post in my view. The points that critique his post that AJM, HeMa and 1poundsocks make all seem correct to me. There really is nothing wrong with clipsticks as long as the climber is giving the route a chance (ie its not hugely beyond their redpoint grade such that the climber completely loses form with footwork and polishes the rock).

Something I would add is we in the UK have more awareness of the variety of climbing games, partly as we want to protect the UK trad ethic. Sports climbing is just 'normal' climbing in many countries but we know the differences well in the UK. Also, due to our history we have a lack of sport venues so lower quality rock is far more commonly bolted in the UK than elsewhere.

Something else on bolted UK routes is that some are most certainly not sports routes but trad routes (esp some routes on slate).

I'm not aware of any UK venues where first bolts are placed by current first ascentionists to make a climb bolder (when bolts were first placed on limestone in the UK the routes were given trad grades and so were not sport routes). Maybe steve can give us examples of such modern bolting? High first bolts designed for clipstick can actually makes a sport route safer and remove the the effort needed to place lots of closely spaced bolts at the start of routes and reduce visual impact of the bolts.

Im also not convinced about holds breaking being a major cause of UK tricky clips but I don't sport climb enough outdoors in the UK to be certain.

Many places, like the rest of Europe for instance, most of the climbing is sport climbing. So if you learn to climb somewhere like that you will have far more experience of bolted routes than someone who learns to climb on trad routes. Additionally in many countries there is far more route development than here because we've so little new rock left. So rather than thinking about individuals think about cultural differences.

Well a number routes at places like Kilnsey for a start. Many of the routes have the first bolts placed very high. A few years ago Neil Gresham sensibly placed a lower first bolt in a 7b that had a ridiculously high first bolt that was far from easy to get to. A short time later another climber took it out wanting to keep the runout. The result is that most climbers now do the route by stick clipping this very high, first bolt.

Yes I agree with that in principle. I think what has happened though is that there are enough situations in this country where a clipstick is required. So first we end up with most climbers carrying one just in case. Then as we've got one with us we naturally get tempted to use them more and more and eventually it turns into habitual use on almost every route.

I don't know if that's true or not as I see clipsticks used everywhere these days. But at Malham the climbing is very often hard straight off the deck and the deck is extremely hard, polished and wrinkled limestone that you wouldn't want to fall very far onto. Additionally most of the routes start from ledges rather than the ground proper so it's nice to have the first bolt clipped for both climber and belayer. But having said that most of the routes there were done before clipsticks were invented so perhaps a bit overused. But then the routes are far more polished now too. Some years ago someone had a bad accident slipping off low down on a warm up route they'd done many times before there.

Sieging is a different issue. I think a lot of sport climbers end up on long hard sieges because we don't have that much sport climbing in this country and so it's very easy to quickly run out of onsights and easier routes to do.

That's a very end-goal focused way of climbing. That's totally fine, whatever makes you happy really. But alternatively you could accept that a climb might take you a little longer to do or just try slightly easier climbs. Not saying you should do that though. Just pointing out that there are different approaches.

It doesn't bother me because it's never happened to me. I don't even take a clipstick with me when I climb abroad. My point is that there are cultural differences that explain why clipsticks are commonly used by British climbers and less rarely by climbers elsewhere.

I replied to a post that said "Firstly as most of our climbing is trad many climbers have little experience of bolted climbs and don't know how to bolt properly.". That's a question of skill at bolting amongst the subset who do equip, not wider culture. 

Yes, I thought you'd say Kilnsey, because it's the only really obvious example I could think of, although my understanding at least (I've not made it back for years) is that a fair few of the high first bolt routes (Ashes/Sticky Wicket/etc) got tamed several years back. One example is just an example. As with the points on bad bolt placement below, it may have formed a habit for a few people but that habit has now grown far beyond what might be necessary for the odd high bolt .

Yes, agree, which means by now it's nothing to do with the relatively few poorly placed bolts out there and everything to do with the habit. 

I don't disagree with those points .the point I was making is that if clipstick use was driven by bad bolting, poor rock and high first bolts then you wouldn't logically see them at Malham except for first bolt clipping.

Basically, I think the habit has by now subsumed the original reason people bought the clipstick in the first place (if that reason were ever there for some people at all and it wasn't just now a semi standard part of a sport climbing rack) so much that we might as well accept that we use clipsticking more because for the most part it's just an engrained thing absent much logical support rather than for any of the logical reasons why some clipstick use might be more necessary here than on the continent: it's so much bigger than any of that now .

Takes me ages to do anything anyway, and it's great to tick a good route. The most satisfying ones for me are when I've got the whole strategy right. Part of the game. Not sure how making the redpoint process less efficient and harder is going to add anything. I'd rather make the climbing harder. It's a distinct activity from other styles of ascent such as onsight. Occasionally I've tried ground-up for fun and variety. Pick a game and try to do your best. For redpoint that means climbing the route well and doing it in less time (even the experience of the best route can be spoiled to some extent by a frustrating and protracted siege). The challenge of making an good redpoint when the outcome isn't certain.

I've never seen it. Only time I've seen anyone poke fun at someone else for using a clipstick was at Malham bizarrely. Just wasn't sure why you mentioned it? Nobody really wants a few idiots to affect someone's personal decisions in climbing.

I pretty much agree with what you say. However the logic of using them at Malham surely comes, at least in part from the fact they are now as you say an 'engrained thing'. I think once we shell out cash on a piece of equipment and then take it to the crag - just in case - we bound to want to use it. If you've bought one for Kilnsey you'll likely take it to Malham too.

For certain routes and crags sticks were used well before clipsticks were invented. That is people used tree branches and finger taped quickdraws to get the first bolt clipped. For instance there used to be a very long stick in the bushes at the left side of Raven Tor for the routes starting there. So the was also a need for clipsticks here.

I don't recall sticks like that at Malham though. I think the hard starts with hard landings from ledges forced climbers to bolt routes more sensibly there. At Kilnsey the grassy landings are more conducive to highball bouldering the starts to routes there. And the trad routes there often had very high first gear which would have influenced the way sport routes were established there.

There are still a good percentage of routes at Kilnsey where use of a stick makes a lot of sense.

I completely agree with that. But in discussing and trying to understand the ethical questions and differences between here and abroad I think the environmental-cultural-historical differences provide the best explanation.

It was in reference to a comment by someone else earlier on.