UKC

The National Trust and Barbed Wire

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 Trangia 25 Sep 2018

There is a Member's motion before the National Trust for it to phase out and ban the use of barbed wire on it's land. The National Trust argues that it's banning would substantially increase fencing costs and with it's restricted income would put an undue burden on the Trust.

Having had both a jacket and a rucksack torn due to snagging on it in windy conditions, and been cut a number of times, I hate  the bloody stuff and would like to see it's use generally discouraged and eventually banned in the UK, particularly where abutting public foot paths. There are alternatives, particularly electric fencing which are not necessarily more expensive. I am therefore intending to support the Motion.

To form a more balanced view I would be interested  other's opinions, particularly from farmers on UKC?

20
 robhorton 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

My (now) wife once got her hand impaled on a barbed wire fence after slipping and grabbing it - we had to cut a section of fence out to take her with the attached piece of fence to hospital.

I'm still not sure I'd support a ban though.

1
 MeMeMe 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

We're not farmers but we have kept pigs on our land and electric fencing can be quite a faff depending on your setup. It takes a fair bit of maintenance in terms of keeping it clear of vegetation that might short it and keeping the battery topped up.

Obviously setups vary and I'm sure in many places you can have a mains powered energisers and I'm sure more robust fencing on clearer land with higher wires (the pigs needed the fence fairly low) would be less maintenance than our setup, but I think they're right that it would increase fencing costs a lot, barbed wire has the advantage of being very simple.

I don't imagine a fence set for cattle or horses would be much fun if you touched it either, I think I'd rather take my chances with barbed wire!

 MG 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Given there are plenty of other things to hurt yourself on when outside (e.g. brambles!), isn't a ban a bit extreme?  If needed couldn't it just be avoid near styles etc?

 Red Rover 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

I'd rather be cut than zapped. I've been cut loads and its usually pretty minor, just one of those things which can happen in the great outdoors. 

 jkarran 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Barbed wire is durable, effective and no worse than many natural outdoor hazards like brambles and blackthorn. A policy of picking the barbs out of the wire at stiles is one thing but a ban is absurd.

jk

2
 skog 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Isn't a better solution to insist that there are proper crossings (gates or styles) where people may need to cross a barbed wire fence?

It isn't in the interest of landowners to have people climbing on their fences anyway.

 wilkesley 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Declaration of interest: I am a farmer. Barbed wire on stiles is usually classed as an obstruction and your local footpath officer should ask for it to be removed. Barbed wire should not be allowed to obstruct an existing path, there should be an alternative, such as a stile or gate.

Banning it completely is utterly stupid. If you can't manage to avoid getting spiked, or having your jacket ripped in places where barbed wire is not causing an obstruction, as defined above, that's basically your fault for being daft  

1
 wintertree 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Red Rover:

> I'd rather be cut than zapped. I've been cut loads and its usually pretty minor, just one of those things which can happen in the great outdoors. 

It always is until the first and last time you get sepsis...

I’ve no problem with barbed wire except where it’s run on a fence across a stile on a right of way etc, and then I have no problem removing the offending barbs with two pairs of needle noses pliers.  

 summo 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Just sounds like poor land management by the NT. If paths are clear and sited correctly no one should brush past any barbs. As above, proper stiles and gates where needed, with good signage on paths directing people in the right direction so folk use them.

Whatever they replaced barbed wire with is likely to suffer the same lack of attention and will either allow stock to escape or cause people to get the odd tickle etc..

Deadeye 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Oh for goodness' sake. Don't be daft.

No barbs at stiles is all that's needed.

and remember, most stiles aren't owned by the NT

Post edited at 11:29
1
 Tony Jones 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

An electric fence is of no practical use in many of the situations where barbed wire can be found as any encroachment by vegetation will render it useless. As Wilkesley has already stated  barbed wire shouldn't be used on stiles where there is a right of way and, as the landowner, the NT have a duty to make sure this is the case. This motion is completely without merit and is an indication of the kind of entitled urban outlook of *some* of the Trust's membership. 

(I'm the son of a livestock farmer btw.)

 

1
 aln 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Recently I've seen a few stiles in Fife where the barbs had been slid along the wire so they were out of the way of the point you crossed the fence. This seemed like a good solution. 

1
 cander 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

To state the obvious - fences are there for a reason - largely to prevent stock wandering into places they shouldn’t be. Most wire (pig netting) and pole fences are actually rather flimsy and a herd of cattle would make short work of them. The point of putting barbed wire as the top strand (and sometimes the bottom strand) is to prevent cattle from destroying the fence as the barbs are painful when a cow tries to push the fence down or climb over it. They learn this and respect the fence. 

Now to the point of your post, do you want to discourage large stock from accessing the fenced off path you are walking along, if so then barbed wire is by far the most cost effective and permanent method of doing so - electric fences are temporary (and as engineered at present, rather flimsy), they also require constant attention (battery changes), carry the risk of shock to people, and they’re more expensive over time.

If you are getting snagged when just walking along as opposed to climbing over a fence it’s probably worth having a word with the owner with a view to getting the problem looked at, as no one likes damage to their kit. Although most fences you come across won’t be owned by the NT and you probably don’t know the landowner, so reporting it might not be particularly straightforward.

Otherwise it’s one of life’s minor hazards, that we encounter and have to negotiate with care and attention.

 skog 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Tony Jones:

> (I'm the son of a livestock farmer btw.)

... the only one who could e-ver reach me ...

 

(sorry, I may be overtired)

1
 Simon Caldwell 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Tony Jones:

> barbed wire shouldn't be used on stiles where there is a right of way

What about in Open Access land where there is also a right of way? What happens when you get to a barbed wire fence and there is no crossing point in sight, do you guess and go uphill or guess and go downhill?

Personally I put something (sit mat, map, whatever I have to hand) over the barbs and climb over the fence. But my objection to barbed wire isn't due to my inconvenience, but due to the harm it can do to wildlife.

1
 Bob Kemp 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

According to the AGM documentation this motion was tabled in response to a single incident of a deer being caught in a barbed wire fence. I'd be interested to know how many incidents of harm, to animals or humans, actually occur as a result of barbed wire encounters, and how this compares with incidents involving other forms of fencing before I could make a decision as to whether the motion should be supported or not. 

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/documents/agm-booklet-2018.pdf p6

 summo 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Some countries don't allow horses to be contain by barbed wire. Their skin and fur is much thin than cattle, or sheep etc.. so I can see why it would make a mess of a deer. 

 timjones 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Just how much harm do you think it does to wildlife?

I've lived and farmed in the countryside for my entire life and I've never encountered any wildlife that have been injured by barbed wire.

2
 MG 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> > barbed wire shouldn't be used on stiles where there is a right of way

> What about in Open Access land where there is also a right of way? What happens when you get to a barbed wire fence and there is no crossing point in sight, 

Well, climb over carefully.. Really not hard! 

1
 Bob Kemp 25 Sep 2018
In reply to summo:

That makes sense. The description of the original incident suggests the deer was caught in the barbed wire, not just cut up though. That's something that could happen with other kinds of fencing couldn't it?

 MikeSP 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

"What about in Open Access land where there is also a right of way? What happens when you get to a barbed wire fence and there is no crossing point in sight, do you guess and go uphill or guess and go downhill?"

 

How would an electric fence solve this problem?

Isn't it just changing the problem from getting a spike in your leg to getting electrocuted ( not sure which I would 'prefer').

 nacnud 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

A big problem for deer is having two wires close together at the top of the fence. These can snare the foot of a deer as it jumps the barrier. The deer is then stuck and dies or if it is lucky the foot is amputated by the wire over an extended period. Not good either way.

 Tony Jones 25 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

> Well, climb over carefully.. Really not hard! 

And infinitely  preferable to getting a kick from an electric fence when mid-straddle in my experience.

 

 toad 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

I don't think barbed wire in itself is a significant problem. I think if there is a problem, it's in how it is used - nailed into trees or strung across gaps as a gate substitute is not so good but a couple of strands on top of stock net is fine.

The real issue is that National Trust barbed wire is an unpleasant shade of olive green and twice as expensive as ordinary barbed wire ( (c) dbapaul )

 Simon Caldwell 25 Sep 2018
In reply to MikeSP:

> How would an electric fence solve this problem?

It wouldn't. I note you omitted the rest of my reply, which gives my solution for most cases, a solution which electric fences would render impossible. But as has already been pointed out by someone else, electric fences would require the area on either side of the fence to be kept clear of vegetation, rendering it a non-solution anyway.

 

 Simon Caldwell 25 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

> Well, climb over carefully.. Really not hard! 

Isn't that exactly what I said?

1
 MG 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Well you seemed to be going up or down hill and arranging karrimats, which is rather a palaver.  Just hop over at a strong fence  post.

 Simon Caldwell 25 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

Sometimes easier said than done, as several pairs of ripped trousers testify

 Tony Jones 25 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

The best stuff to protect trousers and their contents - other than crossing at at a sturdy post - is a length of foam pipe lagging over the wire at the crossing point. Seems to be a pretty common adornment where fly fishermen with expensive gore-tex waders have to navigate fences.

 

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Poor technique! 

There is no need for a barbed wire ban. All that is needed is well maintained fences/posts and properly spaced wire strands. 

The only times you are likely to get problems is when the wire is loose (usually due to rotten posts) or when they are too close together. In either case animals can get stuck between wires (and jumping over loose strands is difficult)

Well tensioned barbed wire with solid posts is easy to jump over without ripping trousers. 

In Snowdonia I can think of places on Trust land where stock proof fences run for many kilometers. The idea of having a battery placed (and frequently tested and regularly replaced) every few hundred metres is absolutely ridiculous, and potentially an environmental  +/- H&S disaster should the battery leak into a watercourse.

 JuneBob 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Barbed wire is banned in Norway to protect animals. It can only be used if it cannot cause hindrance to animals, eg high on fences surrounding military installations.

 skog 25 Sep 2018

This thread needs more SLF.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=7NCXCOLuzsc&

 DaveR 25 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Bring back dry stone walls, that would get my vote.

 summo 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

> The only times you are likely to get problems is when the wire is loose (usually due to rotten posts) or when they are too close together. In either case animals can get stuck between wires (and jumping over loose strands is difficult.

For cattle yes. But for sheep now. If a deer can skip through between strands so would a sheep.

> In Snowdonia I can think of places on Trust land where stock proof fences run for many kilometers. The idea of having a battery placed (and frequently tested and regularly replaced) every few hundred metres is absolutely ridiculous, and potentially an environmental  +/- H&S disaster should the battery leak into a watercourse.

A decent regulator can easily run 10-20km of electric fencing. This is to some degree impact by wire type.  Ie steel or Ali and thickness. Then there is undergrowth, which could half that. 

I've had a few km of wire in electric fences in remote places running off a home built solar panel that have not needed charging all summer. You can get a battery box, which protects the set up from tapering, leaks and theft. You can then add in your own isolator switches if required, lightning protectors etc.. 

But as I said above, unless they have horsed then barbed should be ok if they managed their fences, paths and crossing points properly. 

Post edited at 05:54
 timjones 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

If you're sticking a foot on the wire to cross it then you are slowly but surely but surely lessening both the wire and the posts.

1
 jkarran 26 Sep 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I've lived and farmed in the countryside for my entire life and I've never encountered any wildlife that have been injured by barbed wire.

I've seen a horse killed by pigwire (technically shot because the pigwire ripped its hoof off).

I kept horses in barbed wire paddocks for years, they got the odd scab and nick scratching itches on the fence or leaning over for greener grass but never anything worse. A couple of times I've seen boisterous cattle snap the same barbed wire like it's string.

jk

 Dogwatch 26 Sep 2018
In reply to MikeSP:

> Isn't it just changing the problem from getting a spike in your leg to getting electrocuted ( not sure which I would 'prefer').

I've had a shock from an electric fence. It wasn't particularly unpleasant and unlike a cut, the effects didn't last.  

 

 

 toad 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

my old dog did a sitting down wee on an electric fence when I was out working. She made the kind of noise that still haunts the darkest hours of the night and spent the rest of the day shaking under the pick up

 wintertree 26 Sep 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I've lived and farmed in the countryside for my entire life and I've never encountered any wildlife that have been injured by barbed wire.

I’ve seen a squirrel with a paw impaled on a barb - right through.  Having put a nail through my foot (rotten fence, fallen over and hidden in long grass), I felt it’s pain.  

I believe Rolls Royce have (or had) a supplier with barbed wire free fencing for their leather to avoid any small wound marks.

I’m not against barbed wire when used appropriately, but It seems bloody obvious to me that it has the potential to cause injury to animals.  So do hawthorn and blackthorn hedges - I’ve had a worse injury from them where a thorn broke off in me wouldn’t come out.

 wintertree 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Dogwatch:

> I've had a shock from an electric fence. It wasn't particularly unpleasant and unlike a cut, the effects didn't last.  

Quite.  With the exception of the urinating dog story I’ve been shocked at how negative people have been about electric fences on here.  It’s not nice but it’s very transient.

 jkarran 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Dogwatch:

I was once knocked out by an electric fence I was ducking under having just changed the battery, it caught the base of the neck, didn't draw blood though so that's all right.

jk

 timjones 26 Sep 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Try taking your shoes and socks off and then touching the sort of fence that you need to use if you're aiming to run electric fence out for thousands of metres

 

 Tony Jones 26 Sep 2018
In reply to timjones:

A couple of things we used to do as kids (although I remember my father instigating much of it, bless 'im!) in order to extract as much fun/pain as possible was to either touch the fence using a blade of grass or to grab some else's hand before touching the fence yourself. I suspect that electric fences are more efficient these days and so deal out more of a shock and, with that in mind, I don't advise anyone else to try it at home.

Just found this on youtube. youtube.com/watch?v=4SIT0aU_FRw&

Looks like great fun!

 toad 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

I've always been a bit shy of mains powered fences. I know there's a transformer somewhere in the system, but accidents can happen.

bonus elec. fence anecdote. My first experience of elec. fencing was when I was out with my dad. Dad says "try touching that" Inevitable happens. Dad says "you won't do that again, will you?"

He was a git, my dad

 fmck 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Through my childhood I always called it "bad wire" It wasn't till I was about 19 that I managed to get out the habit. If only to stop everyone laughing at me.

 toad 26 Sep 2018
In reply to fmck:

One of my mates used to warn her son about barbed wire by saying it was hot. He therefore attempted to cool the wire by blowing on it first...

 scope 26 Sep 2018

It's all very well saying that people can just 'hop' over a barbed wire fence, but you obviously havn't seen my 70 year old dad trying to cross one when we're out walking!

 subtle 26 Sep 2018
In reply to scope:

> It's all very well saying that people can just 'hop' over a barbed wire fence, but you obviously havn't seen my 70 year old dad trying to cross one when we're out walking!

Imagine him trying to hop over an electric fence then!

OP Trangia 26 Sep 2018
In reply to jkarran:

> I was once knocked out by an electric fence I was ducking under having just changed the battery, it caught the base of the neck, didn't draw blood though so that's all right.

> jk

I think you have been very unlucky - maybe you neck being almost next to your brain meant that you felt the effect of the shock much more than if you had touched it with your hand?

I got a shock last year from an electric cattle fence when trying to disconnect the battery grip.. OK it was a shock, but not that unbearable. 

I once got my bike crank and chain caught in an electric fence whilst trying to lift it over the fence after I had jumped over it. Really difficult to free it, and I had to endure numerous pulse shocks whilst trying to unravel it.

I remember my kids when they were teenagers doing a human chain of 4 with linked hands and trying to get me go grasp the end. It was amusing rather than unpleasant!  

 

 

1
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Although I never expect to cross barbed wire it does sometimes happen and a friend of mine swore by his 30cm piece of 20mm water pie with a slit in it for those circumstances.

 timjones 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

A fencer that is designed to cover a small paddock will give you a bit of a tickle and might be regarded as amusing.

However, if people want to replace barbed wire with electric fencing it will involve using heavy duty fencers that are designed to power anything up to 50 kilometres of fencing and dealing with any vegetation that contacts the fence lines.  You really know about it if you get a jolt of one of these close to the fencer unit and you most definitely would not find it amusing playing human chain games with them.

 jkarran 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

No doubt I was unlucky.

I would however climb a hundred barbed wire fences to avoid one electric fence, there is nothing amusing about a high power electric stock fence, they are brutal.

jk

OP Trangia 26 Sep 2018
In reply to jkarran

Like this? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_of_Death

There must be a legal limit to how strong a current a stock fence can carry? I doubt if anything that could cause a heart attack to someone with a heart condition would be permitted?

2
 The New NickB 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Trangia:

I’ve had lots of clothing and ocassionally my skin damaged by barbed wire, but every time it has been due to inappropriate use on or around a stile or gate.

It would be nice landowners were encouraged to use it a bit more responsibly sometimes, but a ban would seem more than excessive.

Kipper 26 Sep 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> Quite.  With the exception of the urinating dog story I’ve been shocked at how negative people have been about electric fences on here.  It’s not nice but it’s very transient.

I remember by girlfriend brushing against one in Switzerland years ago and turning round and hitting her brother because she thought he'd kicked her arse. Amusement all round.

 

 Bulls Crack 01 Oct 2018
In reply to Deadeye:

The land-owner is generally responsible for the condition stiles and gates on rights of way so may depend on the terms of Trust tenancies. The law as it stands , if enforced, should be sufficient re: barbed wire ie it can be an obstruction of too close to a rights of way as to be injurious to lawful users (as determined in Stewart v Wright 1893 when the the plaintiff's coat was blown onto wire on a windy day!)  Landowners can also be liable if people hurt themselves

Post edited at 23:33
Moley 02 Oct 2018
In reply to Trangia:

It seems a bonkers idea to me and I hope the trust have the sense to chuck it out. If there is a cost effective alternative to barbed wire, that works as well, then things may change. 

The times I have straddled a barbed wire fence and had my bo***x caught are numerous, but only my fault for having big dangly bo***x, I don't blame anyone else all call for a ban.

If my land borders NT land and the fence is theirs, say sheep netting topped with barbed wire, I would be less than pleased to have them put up a high voltage electric fence or netting. As would my dogs (if i had any) and other wildlife. 

 toad 02 Oct 2018
In reply to Trangia:

This, of course, an abstract debate as the structure of the Tdust means its relatively easy to propose a motion but impossible to pass it unless it has the support of the Trust because of the massive proxy the chair holds

 Billhook 21 Oct 2018
In reply to Trangia:

 Billhook 21 Oct 2018
In reply to Trangia:

A sledgehammer to crack a nut.

This issue started I believe because at least 2 deer got caught in the top of a barbed wire fence and were in fact hanging upside down caught between their rear legs.  One escaped after having pulled most of the skin./flesh of one of its legs.

  However the fences in question are not the average farmer's sheep netting plus a single strand of barbed wire about 6" above this.  The NT uses  two strands of top wire only a few inches apart.  Deer  when jumping over this wire fences get their rear leg/s caught between the two strands of wire as they jump  (I assume they try to gain some purchase from their rear legs on the top wire).  as they go over the fence their rear legs sometimes slip through the two wires and get caught and act like a Spanish windlass.  They are trapped by the now tightly twisted wire around either or both legs.  They cannot escape and die a slow lingering death whilst suspended upside down.

I have seen the same thing happen to kangaroos in Auz.


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