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via ferrata non-Dolomites new styles of climbing

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 kenr 25 Sep 2018

In the last four days I started trying two new styles of climbing (difficult) via ferrata routes with slack cable and lots of rungs + stemples + rails intended as Aid for hands + feet. As opposed to most of the VF routes around the Dolomites, which have a taut cable and little Aid hardware other than the steel cable and required anchor posts to attach the cable to the rock.

Therefore most of the difficult VF routes around the Dolomites encourage a climbing style of hanging backward or sideways from hands on the cable, with feet finding holds or friction on the rock. While non-Dolomite VF routes encourage putting both hands + feet on the rungs/stemples/rails like climbing a ladder.

So then some climbers say they do not want to try non-Dolomites routes because they lack the technique challenges of free rock climbing -- just "climbing a ladder".

Here are some alternative styles to avoid that disadvantage:

(0) Instead of using the rungs/stemples/railings (or cable or anchor posts) for Aid, climb "free" with hands and feet directly on the rock, clipping karabiners to the cable or other hardware only for Protection, not Aid.

. . . Well, actually that's an old previously-known style of VF climbing. But perhaps more likely to work on non-Dolomite climbs, because the rock tends to be less polished and the difficulty of the Free climbing tends to be harder and more interesting.

(1) Grab the rungs/stemples/rails with hands only. Feet must find holds or friction on the rock.

. . . (on steep rock lacking positive holds, this can be interesting and strenuous).

(2) Skip rungs. Go for longer reaches. If skipping one rung isn't a sufficient challenge, perhaps try skipping two rungs.

. . . (Obvious variation is to combine this with style 2).

I tried a mixture of these three styles on two VF routes so far: VF Tournoux in France / Briancon / Vallouise region, and VF de Leysin / Tour d'Ai in the Switzerland Rhone Vaud region. Both routes have a reputation for not allowing much hands+feet on rock contact -- but I found that using these new styles made them more interesting and challenging (and sometimes strenuous).

Ken

Post edited at 21:13
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OP kenr 25 Sep 2018

VF Cesare Piazzetta / S face Piz Boe classic difficult testpiece in the Dolomites versus VF Leysin / W face Tour d'Ai in Rhone western Switzerland.

Both have sustained near-vertical limestone/dolomite (soft rock) faces. VF Leysin has lots of steel rungs/stemples + rails while VF Piazzetta has only the steel cable + anchor posts.

Rock on VF Leysin is less polished because most climbers are putting their feet on the steel rungs instead of frictioning on the rock. While VF Piazzetta rock is notably (scary?) slippery on the crux face sections.

Hanging back off the cable on VF Piazzetta while frictioning feet is challenging -- but gets repetitious, and not much like fun non-VF rock climbing. While launching a big deadpoint lunge to skip a rung (or two) on VF Leysin is rather fun. Bigger lunges than I usually get to perform in non-VF rock climbing -- but don't I _wish_ my non-VF free rock climbing had more sequences like that?

My finding from two non-Dolomite VF routes so far is that the additional hardware _enhances_ the fun of the climbing.

Ken

 

Post edited at 21:08
7
 Neil Williams 25 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

There's plenty of VF in the Dolomites where there are rungs and the likes - there's one route which is basically just rusty ladders!

I'd just enjoy VF for what it is.  If you want to go sport climbing including multipitch there's enough of that about too.

 Stairclimber 26 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

Crazy. Just do NOT risk falling off a via ferrata. 

 Neil Williams 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Stairclimber:

> Crazy. Just do NOT risk falling off a via ferrata. 


Agreed - it's worth pointing out that the purpose of a VF set is to make the difference between you being attached to the mountain seriously injured but able to be picked up by a helicopter and you being in a heap at the bottom of the mountain dead, not so it can be treated like a sport climb with falls being a realistic prospect.

 beardy mike 26 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

Ken, I'm going to risk a rant. Every so often you come here, get wound up about Via Ferrata in the Dolomites, tell everybody it's crap and then wander off muttering about Klettersteig, Austria, France and how other places are so much better. Fine, that is your experience and that's what you like. Others like going to the Dolomites because of other aspects, which we've been through plenty of times before. To me it seems as though the reason you don't like the Dolomites is because they are not made with the intention of them being hard, that being a result of them generally being a bit older when the "sport" was being invented.

You cite an inability to not use the cable as the reason for your dislike, and that you prefer to actually climb the rock. Well fair enough. So why don't you just go climbing? It sounds as if that's what you actually need to do...

Via Ferrata, as others have said is not particularly safe at the best of times, so adding in you trying to climb with added difficulty is effectively increasing the risk of injury quite substantially. Why not just incorporate that risk into actual climbing and let via ferrata be via ferrata?

Quite apart from which what you are talking about is more drilling (and subsequent maintenence), a massive institutional change which would need to take place at governing body level and then implementing that change by organising the 4 different guides associations which cover that one area alone and the numerous different sections of the CAI to voluntarily go and make those changes. I can more or less guarantee, knowing how Italy works to some degree now, that that is never going to happen...

 Andy Say 26 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

 

> I tried a mixture of these three styles on two VF routes so far: VF Tournoux in France / Briancon / Vallouise region, and VF de Leysin / Tour d'Ai in the Switzerland Rhone Vaud region. Both routes have a reputation for not allowing much hands+feet on rock contact -- but I found that using these new styles made them more interesting and challenging (and sometimes strenuous).

> Ken

Well done, Ken.  Would they be the first footless ascents do you know?

 joshtee25 26 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

Just solo them - staying to the side of the route allows you to stay generally off the polished bits, only a short step from the cable, and with a lot more freedom. I did quite a few VF's in my time in the Dollies on my afternoons off, and not clipping in makes for a very different experience. 

3
OP kenr 26 Sep 2018
In reply to joshtee25:

Yes not clipping the cable is another (non-new) style. I do that sometimes too. It does allow more freedom to climb away off to the side of the route. Often less-polished rock, especially in the Dolomites. Also _untested_ rock -> more likely to break.

I suspect breaking holds is the majority cause of solo-ing deaths in non-VF situations.

Of course can also grab cable or rungs for Aid, but not clip anything for Protection.

I do not find it mentally that different from clipping. I use it mainly to save time.

Ken

Post edited at 20:02
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OP kenr 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Andy Say:

> Would they be the first footless ascents do you know?

Who knows? Likely lots of bored climbers did it without reporting in the Web -- just told their buddies (or no one).

Or maybe it's been discussed extensively on German-language forums.

Anyway lots of "No feet touching hardware" ascents of non-easy VF routes in Dolomites have been done before frequently.

What's different for me now is doing it on routes with lots of hardware _intended_ as Aid for feet.

Ken 

2
OP kenr 26 Sep 2018
In reply to Stairclimber:

> Just do NOT risk falling off a via ferrata. 

I fully agree. Have spoken + written that point many times myself. Have complained several times about how VF guidebooks (both English + German) obfuscate about quality of Protection.

Skylotec Skyrider is a special VF kit that works something like a top-rope solo self-belay device, but designed to work for steel cable of appropriate diameter range, instead of rope. I'm using it any time I'm pushing my limits on VF whatever climbing style. Was kind of glad I had it just climbing "normal" VF full Aid style last week on VF Cesare Piazzetta with a heavier pack.

Rope belay: Partner could belay you from above so you could push your limits climbing "free" or semi-free. I gave Sharon a rope belay from above for the first few hundred feet on Cesare Piazzetta last week.

Ken

2
OP kenr 26 Sep 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

> you get wound up about Via Ferrata in the Dolomites, tell everybody it's crap

Mysteriously I just spent a happy two weeks in the Dolomites ... sport-climbing + via ferrata + road-cycling. And if you check Logbook you'll discover at least one Dolomites VF route where I contributed a very detailed description -- with more Dolomites VF route descriptions + GPS tracks on MountainProject.com

I am well capable of enjoying the Dolomites for what they offer (mainly great scenic mountain views in seasons that lack snow) -- even tho I know that other regions have more better _climbing_ VF routes (with great views also when there's snow around in May + June).

For me there is Positive -- and more Positive -- in different regions.

Also in different modes of climbing. Surely I do more Sport-climbing (and Top-roping) outdoors than Via Ferrata.

I also develop new Sport + TR routes (hundreds) in different regions + countries - (but so far only the smallest steps toward developing new VF).

Adding more Positive to the Positives.

Ken

Post edited at 21:03
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 beardy mike 27 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

Ken, I'm going on how you've responded in the past - you've been massively down on the area - infact I've stopped bothering to reply on threads where you've responded because it inevitably turns into a spat. If you enjoy it, it really doesn't seem that way. And it stands to reason that if you don't particularly like the style of the Via Ferrata in the Dolomites, why do you go there to do Via Ferrata? There's enough good climbing to not need to, routes which are absolutely unpolished and which provide the thrill of climbing through actually climbing. I largely don't do VF there anymore because I find it difficult to watch some of the incompetence that happens on the routes (people really not understanding the danger they are creating for themselves etc). I have no trouble finding high quality climbing routes which are unpolished and away from the crowds not to need to and I enjoy myself more. Genuinely, if you enjoy the VF in other areas more, why not stick to those there and just climb when in the Dolomites?

 Andy Say 27 Sep 2018
In reply to Stairclimber:

Just imagine you are the block of wood.....

youtube.com/watch?v=jOzhOs9SAws&

 Stairclimber 27 Sep 2018
In reply to Andy Say:

Just goes to show that you have to be a block of wood to fancy a fall on a VF. 

OP kenr 27 Sep 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

> . . . if you don't particularly like the style of the Via Ferrata in the Dolomites, why do you go there to do Via Ferrata?

because . . .

1) Almost two hand-fulls of VF routes around the Dolomites (including the Arco/Sarche + Adige valleys) have good amounts of fun Free climbing.

. . . (so I can choose to do those to fill up the VF "component" of my visiting days, and not bother about the many that don't offer enough good climbing).

2) Many VF routes and sport-climbing and road-cycling places in the Dolomites have outstanding mountain views that look dramatic + brilliant even without snow on them -- compared with France mountains which look way better with snow. Therefore VF (and Sport-climbing + road-cycling) in France in May + June, save Dolomites for September.

3) The taut cable on Dolomites-design routes is great fun for down-climbing - (e.g. descents on VF Cesco Tomaselli and VF Brigata Tridentina). Slack cable (to prevent yet another special hazard of falling on VF kit) as in France and most other regions of Europe is much less fun on descent.

4) The sport-climbing in the valley and fore-peak areas (and some in the mountains) around the W side of the Dolomites is rather fun for Sharon + me. The road-cycling in those valleys (and lots in the mountains) is great. The indoor climbing gyms in Bozen and Brixen (and now a small nice one even up higher in Wolkenstein) are a nice cross-cultural experience.

. . . (I don't do Trad multi-pitch because it's too slow for me and because for my styles of climbing, the quality of my favorite Dolomite VF routes is plenty good).

My key point about comparing Dolomites with other regions for Via Ferrata is not that the Dolomites are "crap". It's rather that other regions have worked hard and are now superior to the Dolomites (except for non-snow scenery and WWI artifacts). Dolomites are still Positive good for VF - (but ...)

It disappoints me that so many English-speaking climbers keep on "herding" to the Dolomites for VF -- some assuming that the Dolomites are the only worthwhile region for Via Ferrata.

Ken

Post edited at 19:46
3
OP kenr 27 Sep 2018

Today pushing more on "skipping hands on hardware" style . . .

Got out on VF Klettersteig Fürenwand (SE from Engelberg Switzerland).

Great day for me. Lots of fun interesting climbing in a spectacular + quiet setting, and afterward get back down to parking by riding on a lift.

New climbing styles definitely made VF Fürenwand more fun for me than "normal" VF style.

. . . (of course, with Protection of my special Skylotec Skyrider self-belay kit for steel cable). . . . (The spacing of the cable anchor posts was _remarkably_ "run out").

New variations of "hands-on-the-hardware" sequences . . . . . . (with feet _not_ on hardware).

* Not matching both hands on the hardware. Instead "alternating" left hand on one rung then reach up with right hand directly to the next higher rung.

 

* Alternating hands combined with skipping rungs was my favorite. That is . . .

Starting with both hands matched on a rung / stemple, skip one rung to reach Left hand directly up to the 2nd higher rung. Then reach up with my Right hand directly to the 4th higher rung. Sometimes I was able to do several alternate+skips in a row.

 

* Campus. Did a two-move sequence with feet not touching any rock or hardware or rock at all - (No skipping rungs). Plenty enough of that new style for me.

 

But for you much stronger, maybe that's the future style for non-Dolomites-design VF routes.

It happens that VF Fürenwand includes 18-meter-tall vertical ladder (or slightly overhanging?) out in the air away from the wall. So the only way to climb it without putting feet on hardware is to campus the whole thing. I assume there are climbers well capable of that.

 

Ken

Post edited at 19:43
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 beardy mike 28 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

On Point 3 - this is really quite mixed up. You don't like cable hauling unless it's going downhill, and uphill you would rather have rungs, but when you are on rungs you need to make it more spicy for yourself by employing the methods you are describing in your OP to make it harder for yourself, but you don't like the cable hauling sections in the Dolomites because you can't free climb them due to polish even though it's harder... have I got it right?

As for other regions having worked hard - they have a distinct advantage in that they have no existing legacy to contend with. All they have to do is get funding, decide where it's going to go, helicopter a load of steel to the top, send in a bunch of guides to do the work and drill like crazy. In the Dolomites you would need to de-equip each of the hundreds of routes, replace the cable, decide which sections should have rungs etc. Or not bother with the old ones and create new ones, which does happen every so often. But I can guarantee you that the legislation and beauracracy is considerable to overcome. Added to which, more routes means more erosion, more drilling and more intrusion into the mountains. IMO there are enough routes as it is.

On the topic of feeling frustrated at Brits honey potting the Dolomites for VF? Well I tend to agree with you but in a slightly different way. I feel the same way about Chamonix being a honey pot for alpine climbing and ski touring. The Dolomites has much more to offer. Indeed there are huge tracts of the Dolomites which are virtually unknown by Brits and foreigners in general as the South Tyroleans (with our help) have made sure that they take the lions share of Northern European trade. To the south there are fantastic mountains which are wilder and bigger in every respect than the ones around Corvara for example.

To my mind I find it frustrating that there is no consistency in the promotion of other sports, or areas. Certainly in the valley we own a house in I am trying to change that - imagine having the best quality calacarious limestone in the region, a crag 5 minutes walk from the road, 200m high and 500m wide with a grand total of 10 routes on it which are unpublished in any guide to date, with huge scope for more routes. But where the locals have little to no interest in helping you create something worthwhile.

And the Dolomites are a playground all year round. July and August are promoted because that's when Italians go on holiday and they have yet to understand that other people go on holiday at other times and that by restricting their promotions to those high summer months, people miss the best weather and the empty mountains you'd be used to in September. Even winter alpine climbing is quite prolific if you know where and when, but unless you get really involved, speak Italian and get involved with the local scene it would pass you by.

Northern Star 28 Sep 2018
In reply to kenr:

Dolomites are great, busy yes but so are many other regions in the summer.  Did Ski Club 18 this summer and not another person (apart from my girlfriend) in sight on the whole route.  In Switzerland both Leysin Via Ferrata's and the Rostock in Grindelwald had some other traffic on but not enough to be a bother, and most of the time these routes were done in relative solitude - lovely!  Punta Anna and it's continuation to the cable car station were fairly busy with a bit of waiting for other people at the difficult sections but not really a problem as the views were stunning and waiting around gives the chance to appreciate this and take a few photos.

Not sure I get the thing regards Via Ferrata climbing style.  The purpose of Via Ferrata is to get you into some difficult high mountain terrain, quickly and easily without need for navigation, rope or too much in the way of climbing skills.  If I want to push my grade I'll go sports or trad climbing.  Personally for me I'm not sure that Via Ferrata, and it's associated danger with falling on your lanyards, is the best place to be taking chances with your safety by making things deliberately more difficult for yourself.  With that in mind I'll take a Via Ferrata at face value, climbing it as intended but also doing whatever I feel I need to get up it safely which includes cable hauling.  No rules against that, most people do it from what I've seen and does anyone really care? 


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