UKC

If it is climbers, as suspected, then that is truly shocking.

Someone has put a dislike at the message UKC News by Zofia Reych. Tell me why you don’t like it.

maybe they don't like the fact that some people's carelessness has resulted in this terrible damage?

while i don't have a particular problem with 'dislikes' in general, i agree that there is an issue with knowing what they are intended to communicate at times. this could be one of these situations.

'Liking' this story doesn't seem right either, to be honest.

For an organisation trying not to point the fingers at climbers it's doing a pretty poor job. Gorge aux Chats is a renowned free camping area where you can have fun that would not be allowed on a campsite. It's not just used by climbers. If we had a fire in the wood under Lawrencefield you could argue the same thing and probably climbers would not be the culprits. Above Turning Stone ditto and it would almost certainly not be climbers. Let's wait and see.

14,000m2 of forest has apparently burnt to the ground. What's not to dislike about that?

Never mind the hectare of beautiful forest we have lost, I'm struggling because my button pressing habit is being blocked by moral uncertainty !? 

Is it? To me it just seems the most probable cause, if it was started by people and most people in the area are climbers.

?

I'd be pretty sure most people in the forest are not climbers. Its a gettaway for people who love walking, running, cycling riding and thinking of some of the big laybys other interesting activities in the forest.

To me it is just a message, information. We all know that some (mainly) climbers (not all) make fire as well as wilderness people in the forest. Runners, walking the dog owners probably don’t make fire.

One can expect that the commendement of the ONF is aware of this. So climbing is at risk, they can restrict access. Very sad, I worry. So yes the hidden message is –at least– take care. 

To dislike the massage that I understand from the point of view that it is terrible.

Runners, prolly not. Same for dog walkers... But hunters,  walkers and campers do. And pretty much all of 'em smoke (runners prolly less so, but still).

In fact, the only people I've seen doing fires in the forest have been walkers/campers. And yes, the fire was more akin to a bonfire than a small fire... This was on Cul du Chien BTW. And funnily enough, there were quite a few fires, not just one.

Typically, people that are going to La gorge aux Châts are climbers. Except in rainy conditions......

Let me be clear, my English is not that good, I don’t like the wild campers (even in the parking area’s) with their fire. (Also I don’t like “les femmes publique" to Here Fred). Fire starters will spoil free access, to the blocs. ONF is aware of it. 

Such a shame, One of my favorite places in the world scarred by thoughtlessness. 

It is almost impossible at this time to lay the blame squarely on climbers as many other people use the forest.

I do hope it turns out not to be. 

This does highlight a much larger and long term issue, with increasing numbers of climbers visiting the forest from all over the globe, Protection and Conservation of the whole environment being key to subsequent generations enjoyment of this wonderful location. 

It is interesting that my love for the forest is balanced with the impact we all have on it. Much like our local crags and boulders.

I remember talking briefly to Neil Hart at Sabots on one the Font clean up days and he mentioned that 10 thousand climbers were estimated to be in and around the forests of Fontainbleau over the Easter Weekend. Extrapolate this across the whole year and the footfall is extraordinary. No wonder so many of the more popular problems become polished. 

I hope the fair minded locals and French Authorities can come up with a workable solution to this before we all ruin this wonderful place for the next generation.

I shall in my own wee way try and respect the rock and the woods by leaving no trace when i visit again April.

• Squeek yer shoes
• Don't crap in the woods...it's minging
• Easy on the chalk fella
• Take yer rubbish home with you

This should help.

Cheers

.... and youth playing back to the nature (with beers

Given the area, I would guess the fire was caused by climbers. 

In related news I heard rumour that they were considering banning access to Isatis and the related areas due to people in vans leaving rubbish and used toilet roll, etc. around the area.

Conincdientally, I was there on Sunday and there was indeed rubbish scattered around. It makes me sad to think that we can lose access to such a fantastic climbing area due to the actions of a few people. 

I imagine most people reading this post are clued up enough to realise that littering (and causing huge fires that rip through 2 acres of woodland) can endanger access.

How do we get this (seemingly obvious) message across to those that are unaware?

Bad because it was started by people, but that's actually a tiny amount of forest and the resulting regeneration will do it some good.

I've personally witnessed a forest fire in Font. We were at La Canche aux Merciers when someone told us there was a fire. "Really?" I walked about 100m for a look and it was huge wall of flames coming towards us. The wind must've been blowing the other way as there was zero smoke in the heart of the boulders. We made a sharp exit as the fire brigade arrived. We went back a few days later to take a look and the fire brigade were still there making sure it was safe. It looked identical to that in the photo on this news post. The undergrowth was completely gone but the trees were remarkably intact, just charred around the base as in the photo. I went back a year later and you could hardly tell there had been a fire. Hopefully, it's the same case here.

Very sad. My favourite area in the forest with a very special character and - judging by other areas that have experienced fires (eg Potala Nord) - it'll take years to recover. 

Well if you look the dislikes you see that a lot of people here don’t think it is our (as climbers) problem. The fire was in the middle of les trois pignons. At the border of les trois Pignons are houses, is suburb of Milly and close the A6. 

I am sure it will be talked about in the “conseil communal de Milly” so I would say it is a very serious problem. I would fear as a climbing community.

Well, I took part in a cleanup of Isatis/Cuisinière last winter and by far the most rubbish we found was in and around the carpark (that area #vanlifers mistake for a campground). Mostly lots and lots of toilet paper, citrus peels (at least we can be confident climbers won't suffer from scurvy), some bottles. The climbing areas proper weren't too bad (other than the chalk obviously, but that's a lost cause), and I reckon most of the rubbish we did find there was due to absent-mindedness rather than mere dickishness. Same with other areas we've cleaned up like Cuvier (if you saw a bunch of people picking up used condoms and TP on Saturday, that was us) or Canche aux Merciers.

Generally speaking I think most people don't maliciously leave stuff behind. It's just that about 10 million people visit this forest every year so there's bound to be some accidental littering. Sadly there's no solution to that save for malthusianism or handing out a limited number of permits to climb/hike/run/etc.

And yeah those fires are a shame, but honestly I'm surprised there hasn't been more of them given how dry this summer has been (and the drought is ongoing). We've had maybe a day of proper rain in July, one in August and a couple in September. And maddening, relentless heat, second hottest summer since records began. (If that's a harbinger of things to come, the future does not look bright. How do you even sleep when it's 27C at night inside your house??)

Most probably was climbers, but they bring a lot more to the local communities around the forest than the flytippers, graffiti artists and hookers. Most crags have signs of fire - however, many are under overhanging areas of rock containing routes damaging the rock, suggesting these are not done by climbers (e.g. under 'In Form' at Calvaire or 'Brothers of Blood' at Tour Denecourt. As a climbing community we have to be willing to approach others who are not respecting the rock or environment and educate (or at least report to relevant authorities). Start by taking an empty plastic bag with you and pick up any litter on your trip out - it all helps.

Indeed - could have been a great deal worse.  However, it really shouldn't have happened in the first place.  As for "regeneration" - have you been to font?  There are beech trees hundreds of years old.  It's not scrub forest.

What is the score with the Isatis car park? I don't understand why they don't have a barrier to stop camper vans, like they do elsewhere (e.g. Beauvais). Is it to keep them all in one place?

I've spent 7 weeks in Font over the past 3 summers and have been there 30+ times since my first visit in the late '80s. I definitely noticed more toilet paper this summer, but perhaps that was due to the lack of rain? Apart from that, I agree, you don't see much rubbish apart from in the real honeypot areas. 

Hopefully the number of guidebooks has helped to spread the impact. I rarely go to the popular areas thesedays as they're so polished.

I've only been to Rocher du duc and don't recall seeing barriers so not sure what you mean? There is an overhead barrier at the start of the Isatis road, but it will only stop RV-type vehicles. Vans aren't much taller than a standard car, and I don't think the ONF want to/should stop vans from parking at Isatis altogether! They did put up no camping signs in recent years (also at JA Martin and a few other places - Sabots and 95.2 probably?). In theory they close certain areas at night since 2016, among which are Cuvier, Canon, Saint Germain and Ermitage, because of rave parties and littering, but I've no idea whether it's actually enforced (doubt it, our successive governments have cut the ONF's budget like other public services and many of its employees already work overtime).

Yes, I was referring to an overhead barrier at Rocher du Duc. We couldn't get under it with a roof box on a standard car.

I wrote about this a few months back after a particularly shocking visit to Isatis where there were over 30 camper vans present. There was a poster up asking for the public to suggest ideas for how to redevelop the area. I wrote about to spread the word. I've never understood why there are no drop toilets in Font. The place is littered with toilet paper and waste. 

http://www.heason.net/blog/blog-archive/2018/05/15/Who_Gives_A_Crap/

Whilst I doubt anybody will be able to prove whether it was climbers or not I think that the bigger issue is one of management in general. The whole area could do with drop toilets, bivvy areas for those who won't / can't afford to / or would prefer not to stay at campsites, and camper van friendly spots that aren't like the car park on the edge of Milly and have zero ambience. 

Yes, I would agree with all of that.

There is a free bivvy/campsite on the road above bourron marlotte (d58) which has a tap and drop toilets. There are some vans there as well but I think in theory aren't allowed to overnight but in my opinion are better there where there are facilities than in isatis or elsewhere. We actually found out about it by asking in the fontainebleau tourist info, but most people don't know about it 

Correct - forest fires occur naturally quite often and are an important part of the ecosystem. They only seem to become a problem when they affect humans. Like tsunamis and earthquakes and landslides - these are all natural events, until they affect humans, then they become a natural disaster....

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/how-forest-fi...

I'm not suggesting having a bonfire in the forest is good, it is very antisocial and irresponsible, but a forest fire can actually be good.

Natural forest fires occur frequently in some types of forest, they are rare in the types of  temperate forest found in northern France. Fires started by man are, unfortunately, much more common

Agreed. And with potentially longer, drier summers, plus increased visitors to such areas we can unfortunately assume this will become a more common occurance. There has been 2 days of 'proper' rain here in the past months. The forest floor is primed ready to ignite....Saw a horserided in the forest today smoking a cigarette so its definitively not always climbers. And they never pick up the mess their horse makes, but that is a new thread...

I live just north of Paris & I think I can remember one wet day over the last couple of months, although there have been some short lived showers & I may have missed some wet days as I was away.

For anyone interested in seeing some data, look at http://www.meteo-paris.com/ile-de-france/station-meteo-paris.html & scroll down to rainfall. Its for Paris but Fontainebleau won't be very different

The fire originated far from any walking trails and in close proximity to climbable rocks. In addition, walkers in Font are mostly visitors from Paris who do not stay overnight. It's just suspicions and it won't ever be possible to determine who started the fire, especially that it could have been caused by a bonfire that had been used even three days earlier. There's no need to take offence in rational suspicions, rather we should make sure that we're all on the same page when it comes to the total fire ban.  

A naturally occurring forest fire, in certain circumstances, yes. But a fire caused by human activity within a very small wooded area that is already under a huge strain due to the sheer volume of visits per year - no, not a good thing I'm afraid. 

I'll take horse mess over human mess... And both climbers and walkers are unfortunately guilty of the latter. I'd understand that in the proper wilderness but not in Font where a toilet is never too far... But people are lazy and they don't care. That's the main issue. So, speaking up about fires, littering, etc is super important. Let's all care and make others care too or else sensitive places like Font won't stay around as they are for too long.  

The ONF is planning to get some infrastructure in place for Isatis. They had to choose between closing the Isatis car park (due to human waste and noise pollution) and making it a regulated bivvy spot (with a small donation) and they chose the latter under the condition that the community chips in. There will be a crowdfunding camping set up soon. Will share details when available. 

The ONF is planning to get some infrastructure in place for Isatis. They had to choose between closing the Isatis car park (due to human waste and noise pollution) and making it a regulated bivvy spot (with a small donation) and they chose the latter under the condition that the community chips in. There will be a crowdfunding camping set up soon. Will share details when available. 

If you would like to get involved with the campaign, please shoot me a message at womensbouldering@gmail.com  

Sounds good.  Hoping for contributions from the local community or the climbing community?  (Or both, of course!)

Oh, come on.  Horse poo is *much* less offensive than human poo, it's basically just wet compost.  And horses tend not to use a lot of bog roll.

So to be clear; are you saying its OK to light fires that might spread in climbing areas?  And if not then the people who started these fires are pillocks, right?

Absolutely not. There should be no fires in the forest at all unless it is part of a controlled burn program. Anyone having a fire should be prosecuted as they are a danger. However, for the local ecosystem a fire is not a bad thing, as I noted earlier. And climbers do more harm to the rock than a passing forest fire. I am not saying we should burn the forest down, but view the odd fire as inevitable due to the human impact, and not with such distain, due to its positive impacts. 

I agree - and dog mess. I am just surprised society accepts horse riders are exempt from clearing up after their animals. 

Not saying we should all go and start fires, but we should appreciate fire is an important part of a forest ecosystem. 

Interesting point. It would be interesting to read a bit more on the history (ashamed to say my french isn't good enough to get me very far on google).

Two things that always strike me about the forest are the generally uniform age of the trees and scarcity of veteran trees. That would suggest that a century or so back either it was much more open, or it was all clear felled for timber at some point.

I suspect a book on the history of the forest written in English might find a market.

You're correct that in the past there were less wooded areas but Fontainebleau includes one of the earliest 'protected areas' in Europe - with the forestry authorities agreeing not to fell some areas as early as the middle of the nineteenth century after lobbying from the painters of the 'École de Barbizon' with formal protection of the landscape later that century (La réserve artistique).

There were also some areas burned during the 2nd World War, from memory by the Germans to clear hiding places used by the resistance. Many of these areas are now mostly wooded, often with birch which is an early coloniser. In time, if left unmanaged, these will probably become oak or beech woods. The pines which cover large areas today are not native to the area and are either planted, or self seeded from older, planted trees.

May seem like a stupid question but how has this affected the boulders in this area? I guess they aren’t currently climbable? Are they ruined forever? 

Gutted as there is a boulder problem I really wanted to try here!

Thanks Doug, interesting stuff. I was aware of the painters but it's obvious here's a lot more gone on, even at Apremont there are big areas of young birch and it makes sense if the pines at franchard were planted. Does much logging still go on? 

I'd buy a book like that.