UKC

"This simply cannot stand," the one-time moderniser told me. "The Irish really should know their place."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46528952

An excellent piece that demonstrates the arrogance of some politicians and a sizeable proportion of the British public. I find some solace in the thought that these people are in for a much bigger shock than I am if and when the UK does eventually leave.

As an Englishman who has spent much of my life following Anglo-Irish history, I am 100% in support of the Irish regarding the Brexit omnishambles. I think they are being treated with abominable arrogance (and ignorance, from some key Tory players).

It's funny to think that up until two years ago we were still one of the major decision makers in European politics, and that the same English arrogance on display in the article has caused us to throw it all away. 

I hope Scotland has the sense to join Ireland on the European stage soon, if not I'm glad I had an Irish grandfather

Fancy that. Irish sovereignty enhanced when a member of a collective.

Right wing politicians with an arrogant view of the importance of their own country whipping up populist support amongst disaffected sections of the public ...….  Hasn't always worked out well if I remember my 20th century history.

Martin

John Major, as one of the architects of the Good Friday deal, has that achievement to be proud of. He is critical of the stance taken by the current government with some authority. His arguments have considerable force, he negotiated with the men of arms on both sides.

The agreement has prevented many deaths by bombing and shooting. Gangs no longer hold power over communities. Emnity between communities has all all but disappeared.

Those who would risk winding back the clock should take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror.

Given how tribal NI  policies is I would gangs still holds significant sway. The recent expenses scandal regards Ian junior as one example. Sadly or luckily you haven't visited mid July.

I agree work what you say regards John Major his words should be heeded 

I’m thinking that my Scottish grandparents will have left me a very useful legacy (not sure that’s the word I’m after) in the event of Brexit and then Scottish independence. Failing that my Irish best friend has offered to marry me, although as lovely as that might be I don’t think the current Mrs Nayu will be too pleased

My husband is eligible for Irish citizenship, but sadly that doesn't include me.

Scottish independence is what i am hoping for now! 

At least we'll have the evidence of the power shift between the UK and Ireland to show there's little to fear from becoming a small nation in Europe come #indyref2

Sadly there is slim chance that we would be accepted into EU as it stands (Although I think there is a chance that we could get some sympathy. Slim chance, but still there). However, we could work to closer alignment with EU with hopes of joining in the future. I presume we could easily join single market and customs union etc. 

Really? You get comfort from the fact that, whilst just about everyone will get screwed, others will have it worse than you?

Pretty ugly sentiment.

I think Scotland could be a reasonable fit into the EFTA club as a way into partial EU membership. Not really so different in Norway in terms of pop size, industry types etc etc. 

Yes, agreed.

It would be interesting to see if England's stance on freedom of movement changed if Scotland did join EFTA! 

No, that's not what I said.

I take some small comfort from the fact that they're just not expecting it: we will all be screwed over equally which ever way we voted. People will need to take ownership of their parts in the creation of this mess.

That is all. 

I disagree - the rich will not be as "screwed over" as the rest of us.

"I find some solace in the thought that these people are in for a much bigger shock than I am"

It might not be what you meant but it is very much what you said.

Being mildly pedantic, being in for a shock possibly isn't the same thing as being screwed over?

"Being mildly pedantic, being in for a shock possibly isn't the same thing as being screwed over?"

I think being "screwed over" might be a shock if it comes as a surprise!

Fair point. Perhaps I've been on UKC too long.

I think thats a long way off - surely we could just apply the technology that would by then be tried and tested on the Irish (non)border............. 

You might be eligible if you move.  My wife is Irish, and we discovered that if I live in the Republic for 3 years out of five, including the one immediately before applying, I can get citizenship too   

It already exists youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU&

Come on chaps, can't we sort this out on the old rugby field? 

6 nations coming up, winner takes all, give the blighters something to play for.

Steady on. Before we go down this route can we take a lesson from recent history and be clear on the rules of engagement and have a clear understanding of the ramifications (and dare I say some honesty from all sides) of all potential outcomes before the first whistle is blown at the Stad de France on 1/2/19?

Speaking as a Taff I will always want us to beat anyone especially the English but I might have to give the benefit of my support to the Irish if this stops breksh1t (which given our recent history is quite a compromise) and where do the French and Italians fit in?

In short, it's way more confusing than the "Second" European Referendum held on 23/6/16 (I was fairly clear on the outcome of leaving the EU).

We'd have to show we could be stable enough during the application process, but Spain have said they wouldn't veto our application as long as independence was achieved by legal and constitutional means, and from a wider EU perspective getting Scotland's renewable potential and territorial waters back into the fold, whilst weakening the Anglo-US alliance on their doorstep can't be a bad thing. I think there are reasons to be optimistic that the process of application would be made reasonably easy for us. 

Might have to rebuild Hadrian's wall right enough, but it's a bit straighter than the northern Irish border and there's not been any fighting over it in living memory so I reckon we'll manage

Ditto, my fingers are crossed re my Scottish grandma and an EU passport. 

Yes, application might be made easy, I think we do have sympathy from a lot of EU countries due to what we are being put through just now. However, it's not guaranteed and if it comes to indyref 2 then I don't think campaigning should be on the basis that we will get it, as it is an unknown. Closer alignment is all that can be promised at this stage. 

Indeed, but it will be interesting to see how Europe approaches #indyref2 - assuming we do in fact brexit. 

They may be less reluctant to discuss the possibility of re-entry one the UK is no longer a member state 

Promising comments coming from Germany at the moment:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17300030.angus-robertson-germany-is-seein...

Jokes about Hadrian's wall aside, clearly border issues are going to be our major problem. I imagine they'll be happy enough for us to stay out of Schengen and keep the CTA, as that's still the most practical solution, but goods and customs are going to be as difficult as in Ireland. 

Assuming brexit happens though, I'm quite optimistic for Scottish Independence and re-entry to the EU. There are those who voted for independence and for brexit, who just seem to want to be isolationist in an increasingly connected world. But aside from that, most No voters in indyref1 voted that way for the same reasons I voted Yes - a belief that it was the best way forward for the prosperity of future generations - they just saw the balance of pros and cons differntly to me. The events of thet last two years have highlighted that the stability of staying in the Union is as illusory - those pros and cons must be getting assessed differently now

I think once brexit happens, it makes absolute sense for Europe to let Scotland rejoin, and NI too - whether as an independent state or reunified Ireland.

Who knows, maybe England will then decide to rejoin us too - although I imagine at that point Schengen membership all round might become a condition... Which of be happy enough with but I imagine we'll stick in the craw of the English voters.

Yes terrible arrogance, conceit, lack of introspective thought and complete absence of situational awareness on the part of the Tory right and sections of their supporters.  The fact they would happily risk a resurgence of troubles in Ireland and be so cavalier with UK social cohesion,  is reprehensible. 

They have collectively shown themselves to be unfit to govern, and I hope the British public judge them harshly for it at the ballot box for a long time to come, the sad thing is the opposition is so weak and lacks vision.

If Indy Ref #2 arrives it will be very hard to decide how to vote, ideological divorce with a mutual land border from your legislative partners, neighbour(s), and your main trading market has just been shown to be fraught with difficulty, and I fear the preceding campaign and vote will be more bitter and divisive than the last time. I fail to see that post-Scottish Indy negotiations will be legislatively, or pragmatically be any easier than Brexit, and thus sensible.

No matter how appealing it is to be shot of the self-interested, intellectually destitute, morally repugnant and socially divisive Tories. 

I agree that with the UK leaving the EU, trade is going to be the biggest problem.

We will have lost our (almost) land link to Europe through Dover and our biggest trading partner will not be in the bloc.

On the other hand, rUK has to sort it's trading relationship out with Europe, or it is going to be f*cked. In the short term, in or out of the UK, we are dependent on Westminster managing to sort something out or bad things will happen.

In the long term, if we stay in the UK we will remain reliant on Westminster getting things right, if we leave we take national matters into our own hands and have our own voice at the EU table.

For me, that long term choice is a no-brainer. Although I do recognise that being able to take a long term view is a luxury that not everyone can afford. Assuming brexit goes ahead, I'm not convinced that the short term pain is all that different either way though.