UKC

Hi looking at heading to the alps this winter for my first ice trip abroad.

Myself and my partner are both fairly experienced winter climbers however it will be both our 1st tim abroad ice climbing we both lead up to around grade V/VI in winter.

It would be helpful to hear some opinions on where people would recommend out of cogne vs ecrins?

Thanks

Both are excellent, but in some ways quite different. Consider the below the generalization - there are clear exceptions!

First, RE grades - British V ice (take point five as an example) could typically equate to WI3-WI4+ (I would say in typical conditions probably WI3+/WI4), depending on conditions and how travelled the route is.

Cogne is definitely more accessible, both in terms of getting there from an airport and necessity to travel once there. It's essentially based around two valleys, so if you're based at the head of either you needn't drive very much, if at all. Getting there from either Turin or Milan (cheap flights from Manchester for you) is very easy (with cheap car hire, even for people <25). The climbing is great, but doesn't feel anything like as 'wild' as some of the Ecrins stuff. Cogne will be busier. But, if on a first trip, you might like the slightly more convenient nature of it. It will also feel safer - more belays will be bolted.

The Ecrins is much harder to get to. Best bet is to fly to Turin, but its then a couple of hours drive over a col (potential issues if severe weather) and then to wherever you end up staying. It's also perhaps not as obvious where to base yourselves - Argentiere? Somewhere in the Queyras? Briancon? I'd recommend Argentiere, but be prepared to head to the Queyras, particularly for your first trip. Will be able to find reasonably cheap accommodation outside of ski holidays and food is cheaper. The climbing is significantly more disparate, but every bit as good. You'll find great stuff from Les Orres to the Pre de Madame Carle to the Queyras to the Fournel and Fressiniere. Some of the stuff in the latter two valleys is sublime, but will take more effort and will feel remote, especially if the roads aren't open! A car is a must and you'll end up using it everyday. Walkins will be longer for a lot of things than in Cogne.

The above is written without considering Ceillac - the playground in the Queyras. Its great, accessible, tame, but busy. It breaks the generalizations of the Ecrins set out above - very short walkins, not at all remote, nice simple descents, tame climbing, will be hooked, etc. But, a great first day venue - get yourself in the swing of things, do lots of pitches (easy to do two or three routes in a day here if you want to, giving potential for 700m+ climbing!).

Ultimately, I think that a trip to the Ecrins has potential to be more rewarding but will require more effort to make it so. It probably isn't quite as good a bet for a first trip, though. It'll be a more reassuring environment to learn to (e.g.) make abseil descents on v-threads quickly, going from one to the next efficiently, in Cogne than the Ecrins.

No route recommendations here as you've not decided on area - if you want any let us know! not very experienced in Cogne, but spent a lot of time in the Ecrins.

Summary: go to Cogne this time, then head to the Ecrins for your second, third, ..., nth trips.

Edit: for both, Ice-fall website gives good conditions updates and camptocamp good topos; for Cogne, iceclimbingcogne is good too.

While I agree with most of what you've written above, the one thing you haven't mentioned is the effect that a heavy dump of snow can have on avalanche risks and consequently on limiting climbing opportunities as far as Cogne is concerned. The very widespread nature of venues in the Ecrins, from Les Orres to Fournel to La Grave to Alpes d'Huez for instance, plus the fact that many Ecrins routes are in relatively low avalanche risk locations, mitigates significantly against the apparently more difficult access considerations you rightly mention.

In spite of this, there's also the fact that, in recent years, conditions overall seem to have been a bit more reliable in Cogne though. 

Having climbed extensively in both the Ecrins and Cogne, on balance I think that I'd recommend the Ecrins over Cogne, despite accepting much/most of what you generalise about the Ecrins.  For one thing, there are far far more routes there that would 'equate' to Scottish 5.

FWIW, for many reasons, I think Rjukan would be ideal for a first ice climbing trip abroad; better than either the Ecrins or Cogne IMHO, but obviously a far far more expensive option.

Good stuff! Not yet visited Rjukan, for precisely the reason you’ve mentioned.

Not sure of the relevance of there being more at scottish V - given its a first trip there’ll likely be plenty new to go at (unless the aforementioned hazards rendered all appropriate routes in Cogne inappropriate on the day).

I think I get to Cogne being more likely to have the more reliable conditions but on the off chance that wherever you end up isn’t blessed with great conditions, you’d perhaps be better off in the Ecrins. Ecrins might give you the more memorable days out, though Cogne might give a (sometimes illusory) sense of convenience/safety/ease, which in safe conditions might lend itself better to a first trip.

Given the degree to which Dave and I share views but arrive at different answers, I think it’s safe to say you’re likely to have a cracking time in either place! They’re great!

Just to add, several routes/sectors at Cogne are currently under climbing ban due to nesting Lammergeier. 

True, but isn't it mostly the Repetance -Monday something area? Not much for a Scottish grade V leader there...

Fair enough, I'll admit I hadn't fully read the OP!