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Brits in France after Brexit

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 1234None 14 Jan 2019

I am wary of starting another Brexit thread which will doubtless descend into a "two camps" discussion/debate about the whole debacle, but here goes anyway...

I am a British citizen living in France.  I am employed here (since April 2018) and have just bought a house.  My wife is French, which is also a factor and we have just applied for  French passport for our daughter, who was born in the UK and has had a UK passport thus far.  I wasn't too worried about the effects of Brexit as until a few months ago I was fairly confident that some sort of deal would be struck between the UK and EU.  Now it looks like the likelihood of a "no-deal" Brexit is increasing (or at least I think so) I am wondering if anyone here can offer some input on what this might mean for people in my position.  I have done some reading around about a few possible scenarios, but I am no expert, so can anyone offer any insight as to where they think I will stand in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU and what bureaucratic hurdles (the French like them!) I may be forced to jump through to stay here.

I understand, perhaps wrongly, that I can't apply for a residency permit now as I haven't been here for 5 years.  Is there something else I could do now that might ease the bureaucratic burden if there's a crash out of the EU without a deal?

Post edited at 08:28
 steve taylor 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Check out the Remain in France Together (RIFT) website and Facebook page. They should give you some pointers. I'm sure you can apply for a Carte de Sejour straight away, through your local prefecture.

You also have a significant head start, with a French wife.

Good luck - we're in a similar situation down in Herault, but have to wait until I stop working in the Middle East before we apply for residency.

 yorkshireman 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Yes, you can apply for a CdS (residency permit) straight away and should do. I second the RIFT site - very useful.

I've been here since 2011 and so am in the process of applying at my local prefecture (Valence - although local means a 2hr trip each direction!! Many sous-prefectures don't have an étrangers department).

Because I've been here 5 years I'm lucky because my permit lasts 10 years and is auto-renewable - I think your situation will be different but check locally. There's no central place to apply and all prefectures have their own quirks.

Good luck - it sucks to have our EU citizenship stripped but that lucks like the reality now.

One other thing to remember is get your driving licence changed to a French one otherwise it will be much harder to switch (and you may need to take a test) once we're out of the EU. Some useful info here:

https://anglophone-direct.com/exchanging-your-uk-driving-licence-for-french...

Best of luck!

 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

I guess the bit you haven't included is what you actually want.  Is this ultimately about you maintaining a right to live in France after March rather than any particular passport holding?

If so then has anything at all given you a particular reason to suspect that you will be forcibly separated from your wife and daughter by the French authorities after March?  My online reading seems to tell me that you will retain EU Citizenship through marriage and can apply for French Citizenship via marriage after 4 years.

I can't speak from any position of deep knowledge, but I cannot imagine you being asked to leave when you live with your French wife, in France and have legal employment there.  It just wouldn't make sense.  You may need to fill in some paperwork I suppose.

 

4
 yorkshireman 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> I can't speak from any position of deep knowledge, but I cannot imagine you being asked to leave when you live with your French wife, in France and have legal employment there.  It just wouldn't make sense.  You may need to fill in some paperwork I suppose.

5 years ago I couldn't realistically conceive of the UK stripping its citizens of their EU status but it happened frighteningly quickly. France isn't exactly ticking smoothly at the moment and as we've seen elsewhere, when times are tough, immigrants are some of the first to be scapegoated. When Le Pen got the second round in 2017 I was genuinely concerned for the way things might go - thankfully the nation saw sense.

As a UK citizen its possible to keep a UK passport if you get French nationality. This is my aim but since it takes longer and is more complicated than a CdS, that is a stop-gap. Being a French citizen is the only guarantee to be treated the same as everyone else.

 

2
 Ian W 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

You also need to read the RIFT website - once we leave the EU, you have no automatic right to residency. Doesn't matter who you marry or what your job is. 

 

 Enty 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

>

> I can't speak from any position of deep knowledge, but I cannot imagine you being asked to leave when you live with your French wife, in France and have legal employment there.  It just wouldn't make sense.  You may need to fill in some paperwork I suppose.

At the moment I am putting my faith 100% in the French government to look after us seeing as though my own government doesn't give a flying f*ck about us. When I look at Windrush and the case of the old Italian ladies working in the UK it all becomes very scary.

Enty

6
 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Enty:

Given the number of French citizens in UK and UK citizens in France, it makes no sense for the two countries to do anything but come to an agreement that works.

In the case of the Italians, I've not looked too deeply at it, but are any of them likely to be thrown out or is this just a case of closing an admin loop by getting them to do some paperwork so everything is above board? (I genuinely don't know).

11
 elsewhere 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> I can't speak from any position of deep knowledge, but I cannot imagine you being asked to leave when you live with your French wife, in France and have legal employment there.  It just wouldn't make sense.  You may need to fill in some paperwork I suppose.

Given what you know about the Windrush Scandal, why is it difficult to imagine a country expelling legal residents who are law abiding and have a long employment history? I agree it makes no sense but they are far easier targets than people trying to hide when you have a target for expulsions to meet.

Post edited at 10:21
4
 Enty 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> Given the number of French citizens in UK and UK citizens in France, it makes no sense for the two countries to do anything but come to an agreement that works.

> In the case of the Italians, I've not looked too deeply at it, but are any of them likely to be thrown out or is this just a case of closing an admin loop by getting them to do some paperwork so everything is above board? (I genuinely don't know).


Yes that is what I'm hoping but anything is possible with our current government.

Imagine having to take your 91 year old grandmother who has lived and worked in the UK since 1950 down to an office to have her fingerprints taken.

E

2
 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to elsewhere:

Windrush was a mess, but it doesn't necessarily follow that these people will face the same issues, surely.  Not least because Italy is an EU country.

From the BBC:

 

EU citizens will have to answer three "simple" questions online if they want to continue living in the UK after Brexit, according to the Home Office.

People will be asked to prove their ID, whether they have criminal convictions and whether they live in the UK.

The scheme will operate online and via a smartphone app, and Home Secretary Sajid Javid said the government's "default" position would be to grant, not refuse, settled status.

A Home Office spokesperson said: "We want EU citizens living in UK to stay and the settlement scheme will make it easy for them to obtain the immigration status they need.

 

That hardly sounds like a Government rubbing its hands with glee at the prospect of evicting a small number of Italians.

 

8
 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Enty:

No, that can't be pleasant at all.

I'm assuming the 91 year old has no passport or other form of UK identity, which therefore means that this step is a necessary evil?

 TobyA 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

IIRC the French government is one of the ones that has said that what measure they will put in place for British residents will depend on what measures the UK govt put in place for French residents here. The mood music for EU citizens resident here (in the UK) has been OK (my wife and two oldest children are EU nationals without British citizenship), but of course it is all as fuzzy and unclear as everything else - so we hope they'll be fine but its not certain until the legislation is all passed. And as ridiculous as it seems the other 27 EU governments have no more insight on this than the rest of us, I've got told that by an old mate who had just finished a stint at a very senior position in the Finnish state dealing with foreign policy, so they are all waiting to see what happens too. Good luck.

Post edited at 10:31
 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Ian W:

Another expat site states:

If you are married to a French national for more than three years you can apply for permanent residence immediately, even if you have not lived in France during your marriage. If you have been married for less than three years, then you can apply after three years of holding a carte de séjour (residence permit).

So surely if the OP has been married for at least 3 years he can apply right away?

 elsewhere 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

So basically there's no reason for EU citizens in the UK or Brits in France etc to have any doubts because nothing like the Windrush Scandal will happen again anywhere in the 50 years after Brexit.

 

4
 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to elsewhere:

> So basically there's no reason for EU citizens in the UK or Brits in France etc to have any doubts because nothing like the Windrush Scandal will happen again anywhere in the 50 years after Brexit.


That's not what I said at all, and you attempting to put words in my mouth doesn't help the OP who is asking a genuine question. 

I have been trying to offer reasonable responses on the fly.  It seems to me that both the OP and the Italian ladies are probably going to be fine with a bit of admin to do in order to make sure everything is legal and above board.

If nothing else, this whole process gives any UK citizen, anywhere in the world, or any long-term resident in the UK from elsewhere the prompt to look at their status and make sure they have the right documentation in case their status is called into question.

13
 skog 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> I can't speak from any position of deep knowledge, but I cannot imagine you being asked to leave...

Given that you don't know, might it be worth being less dismissive of the concerns of people whose livelihoods and family lives actually depend on the outcome of this?

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, we all lose our EU nationality - there is no retention of EU citizenship through marriage, it comes from your citizenship of a nation within the EU.

Non-nationals are routinely kicked out of countries; marriage to a national, or having children there, can help with applications to stay - but don't give guarantees.

It's fair to say that it'll probably be OK for most people in the op's situation, but given how much rests on this for the people involved, that isn't enormously reassuring for many of them.

The best solution for the op is probably to get applying for that residency permit (which I think can be done now), then start down the road of applying for French citizenship (which I think requires a longer period of residence first), but that is neither instant nor guaranteed. But you (and I) should really leave any advice to those who do know about how this works in France.

5
 Ian W 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> Another expat site states:

> If you are married to a French national for more than three years you can apply for permanent residence immediately, even if you have not lived in France during your marriage. If you have been married for less than three years, then you can apply after three years of holding a carte de séjour (residence permit).

> So surely if the OP has been married for at least 3 years he can apply right away?

He can, and the french (and others) have been apparently very reasonable about things, given they have had a deluge of applications for something that has simply not been an issue in the past. There are some occupations that require EU citizenship, and the problem is that nobody knows what will happen after mar 29 when we potentially get 3rd nation status.

 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to skog:

I have not dismissed any concerns at all.  I wish the OP well and have tried to find a number of online posts that may help.  I am also not about to stir up fear and panic or get involved in a Brexit rant.

These are open forums where anyone can choose to post or respond.  They are not the French embassy and I am sure the OP knows that.

8
 jkarran 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

It seems likely citizens rights will be temporarily extended unilaterally by the EU as part of their damage limitation plan that was publicised around xmas. Probably also by the UK or the NHS collapses and people start dying if UK resident EU citizens can't work (day 2 then involves pitchforks and torches). Longer term some sort of reciprocal rights deal for existing residents will almost certainly be formalised in the deals that inevitably follow 'no-deal', but nothing is guaranteed.

What a mess. I hope tomorrow brings you a little clarity but I suspect there will be at least another few weeks of game playing, ramping up pressure before we know for sure which way we're going.

jk

 skog 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> I have not dismissed any concerns at all.. ...  I am also not about to stir up fear and panic or get involved in a Brexit rant.

Nope, not dismissive at all...

4
 jkarran 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> I can't speak from any position of deep knowledge, but I cannot imagine you being asked to leave when you live with your French wife, in France and have legal employment there.  It just wouldn't make sense.  You may need to fill in some paperwork I suppose.

Well that's exactly what we've been doing to non-EU spouses here for years, what many voters now want us to do to EU citizens as well and they might eventually win that battle. In which case there is a chance the EU retaliates in kind.

jk

4
 Rampikino 14 Jan 2019
In reply to skog:

There's a difference between being dismissive and trying to be balanced/measured.  I note that you are not jumping on the backs of those who are throwing fuel on the fire.

Let's be honest.  This is a personal attack on me from previous posts/threads so why don't we just leave the OP to get the answers he wants and if you want to continue your gripe then find another way.

8
OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> I guess the bit you haven't included is what you actually want.  Is this ultimately about you maintaining a right to live in France after March rather than any particular passport holding?

It's about what bureaucratic hoops I may have to jump through.  I know enough to know that I needn't bother applying for a French passport, even if I were that way inclined.

> If so then has anything at all given you a particular reason to suspect that you will be forcibly separated from your wife and daughter by the French authorities after March?  My online reading seems to tell me that you will retain EU Citizenship through marriage

My reading tells me that this is wrong...but no, I am not worried about forced separation from family.  If that came to that then we would all just go elsewhere.  To clarify, it is more about work permits, pensions (my wife paid 20 years worth of NI contributions in the UK) because as far as I am aware a no-deal exit means things could change significantly regarding the rules for what we may be entitled to if we end up retiring in France.

> I can't speak from any position of deep knowledge, but I cannot imagine you being asked to leave when you live with your French wife, in France and have legal employment there.  It just wouldn't make sense.  You may need to fill in some paperwork I suppose.

I'm not worried about being asked to leave and just want to know if anyone has any insight into what the current agreements might mean in terms of work permits, visas, NI contributions paid by my wife in previous years in the UK etc.

 

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to jkarran:

> Well that's exactly what we've been doing to non-EU spouses here for years, what many voters now want us to do to EU citizens as well and they might eventually win that battle. In which case there is a chance the EU retaliates in kind.

That's precisely what concerns me.  From the reading I have done the French authorities have so far said that they whatever the UK does, they will reciprocate.  It seems it is mostly in the UK's hands....

1
OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to jkarran:

 

> What a mess. I hope tomorrow brings you a little clarity but I suspect there will be at least another few weeks of game playing, ramping up pressure before we know for sure which way we're going.

Thanks!  I'll be keeping an eye on things.  Definitely interesting times.  We are lucky in that we are used to being quite nomadic, so if things get too tricky and bureaucratic, we can always head off back to Oman for a few years until the dust settles

 

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> Another expat site states:

> If you are married to a French national for more than three years you can apply for permanent residence immediately, even if you have not lived in France during your marriage. If you have been married for less than three years, then you can apply after three years of holding a carte de séjour (residence permit).

> So surely if the OP has been married for at least 3 years he can apply right away?

I have read that too, but I'm not sure it is correct.  I'll pop into the local prefecture headquarters and see what they say, but my understanding is that I need to be resident for 5 years in France.  Some research to do....

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to yorkshireman:

> Yes, you can apply for a CdS (residency permit) straight away and should do. I second the RIFT site - very useful.

Great - will look into it - thanks!

> I've been here since 2011 and so am in the process of applying at my local prefecture (Valence - although local means a 2hr trip each direction!! Many sous-prefectures don't have an étrangers department).

Need to look into that - we are in Correze...

> Because I've been here 5 years I'm lucky because my permit lasts 10 years and is auto-renewable - I think your situation will be different but check locally. There's no central place to apply and all prefectures have their own quirks.

> Good luck - it sucks to have our EU citizenship stripped but that lucks like the reality now.

Agreed!

> One other thing to remember is get your driving licence changed to a French one otherwise it will be much harder to switch (and you may need to take a test) once we're out of the EU. Some useful info here:

> https://anglophone-direct.com/exchanging-your-uk-driving-licence-for-french...

I am onto that already!  Thanks. 

> Best of luck!

Thanks - I think we'll possibly need both luck and patience

 

 skog 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Rampikino:

> Let's be honest.  This is a personal attack on me from previous posts/threads

Eh? I don't know who you are, and I don't know what threads you mean!

1
 supersteve 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

I too share your confusion. I moved to Fontainebleau with my wife and kids in August (my wife is French and the kids 50:50) and get conflicting reports as to how our future will pan out. One reason for moving in August was to get as settled as possible before March, but the uncertainty is a concern. I am confident I won't just be kicked out of the country, but residency and associated perks may be more difficult. I applied for the healthcare as soon as I moved over and this is still in process with letters going back and forth - and this is pre-Brexit. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few days as this may help answer a few questions, or just confuse us even more. 

 Pyreneenemec 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Two points :

if I have understood correctly, Michel Barnier stated that in the transition period, all Brits established in another E.U  nation and vice versa will be able to remain. There should be no problems -at least- until 31/12/2020.

The question of pension rights has already been settled. Reciprocal rights exist for all nationals  of an E.U or E.E.E.E.  nation.

I've lived in France for over 30 years. I can ask for French Nationality anytime I desire. I don't know why I haven't already done it, just one of those things you never  seem to get around too !

 jethro kiernan 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Please be aware if you are a contractor who travels to Europe for work that may well become difficult after March as you are a provider of services not an employee, services arnt covered by transition agreements,I may well be out of work come March .

trying to get my Irish passport sorted as we speak, what F£&@ing shambles, I do get really fed up with brexiters quoting nonsense at me on various forums, loosing 3 years hard work establishing myself through Ill informed bollocks and having to find work in a recession riven industry, in a potentialy recession riven country. 

Thanks for nothing Brexit, I have yet to hear one reasonable reason why this has been inflicted on us.

2
 LeeWood 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

I haven't done a thing about my status in France, rank complacency! I'm relying on the French government to be reasonable - it wouldn't make sense to start kicking Brits out; but from what perspective do we judge what makes sense?

Last week I spoke to a french chap who campaigns with the Gilet Jaunes - the law is about to get tough and suppress the demonstrations. A pity (says I) that all the violence had to creep in. Well that (says he) is the government's way of straightening things out - french police are accused of vandalism in plain clothes - done under orders in order to justify new repressive laws.

Which I related back to my 14yr old 'french' lad. No! (says he) the government would never do that sort of thing. Really, (says I). Let no-one forget that in 1985 the french government were responsible for sinking the Rainbow Warrior, defined by some as state sponsored terrorism. And the reason it was justified ? 

So here's the perspective from which to judge the outcome: commerce. If there's enough financial interest in maintaining diplomatic  relations with UK, it may well extend to reciprocal citizenship. Which in part will depend on the UKs expressions of trade and cooperation; Oops ! 

 Carless 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

have you looked round here https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2726

particularly

Durée du mariage

Autre situation (actif)

Depuis votre mariage, combien de temps, avez-vous vécu en France de manière continue ?

vous avez choisi

Moins de 3 ans

Si votre époux(se) français(e) a été inscrit sur les registres consulaire pendant votre séjour à l'étranger : Vous devez être marié(e) depuis 4 ans minimum à la date de votre déclaration.

Si votre époux(se) français(e) n'a pas été inscrit sur les registres consulaire : vous devez être marié(e) depuis 5 ans minimum à la date de votre déclaration.

 wbo 14 Jan 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan: I've also wondered how the contracting thing will work, and I'd also be concerned that if the UK applies a 30K min wage to allow for a work permit that the reciprocal will occur.

How will guiding in the alps be affected.

Resident in Norway not France, applied for permanent residence.

 

 Doug 14 Jan 2019
In reply to wbo:

I'm another 'brit in france' who so far has done nothing, partly as I'll retire & move (to a different part of France) soon & would rather only have to deal with the French admin once. I'm assuming I'll be able to stay, probably with a lot of previously unnecessary paperwork, but the 30k minimum for a spouse for the UK is worrying (wife is French) as although I earn more at the moment, my pension will be much less - anyone have any idea if that limit applies to pensions (which in my case will be a UK civil service pension)?  May restrict our options quite a bit in the near future.

 jethro kiernan 14 Jan 2019
In reply to wbo:

I think France has made it fairly clear that seasonal workers such as chalet staff won’t be able to work easily, I think guiding could be troublesome if your a seasonal provider and a subcontractor your providing a service I could be wrong but didn’t the EU step in to stop closed shop french guiding, obviously we can’t run crying to the EU courts if life isn’t fair anymore, It’s the uncertainty and futility of it that is frustrating.

if France has said it will mirror Britain then I’m afraid guides could be f£&&ed without European passports (imperial Blue/black passports don’t count)

Post edited at 16:38
 Bob Hughes 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Doug:

> but the 30k minimum for a spouse for the UK is worrying (wife is French) as although I earn more at the moment, my pension will be much less - anyone have any idea if that limit applies to pensions (which in my case will be a UK civil service pension)?  May restrict our options quite a bit in the near future.

Pretty sure it is regardless of source - ie applies to pension. What they are trying to do is find out if your wife is self-sufficient. There is an alternative which is to demonstrate savings which might apply to you if you are retired. From memory I think the threshold is 60kGBP.

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

]> The question of pension rights has already been settled. Reciprocal rights exist for all nationals  of an E.U or E.E.E.E.  nation.

After Brexit do I and my wife still have reciprocal rights in France with regard to pensions, if it is no-deal?

 

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to supersteve:

> I too share your confusion. I moved to Fontainebleau with my wife and kids in August (my wife is French and the kids 50:50) and get conflicting reports as to how our future will pan out. One reason for moving in August was to get as settled as possible before March, but the uncertainty is a concern. I am confident I won't just be kicked out of the country, but residency and associated perks may be more difficult. I applied for the healthcare as soon as I moved over and this is still in process with letters going back and forth - and this is pre-Brexit. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few days as this may help answer a few questions, or just confuse us even more. 

Ah...the good old French social security.  I started the process in April 2018 and have just received my Carte Vitale...A weight off my mind, as at least now reimbursement for any healthcare costs is straightforward.

I am far from certain where I stand on 30 March if there is no deal and a crash out exit from the EU.  OK...I may have to apply for a work permit for a job I am doing already....I wonder what sort of grace period etc.  I would almost certainly need a carte de sejour or residence permit, but if I don't have that by March, how long will I have to get one.  All questions which, given the imminence of Brexit, I am astounded nobody can answer.  What a mess!

I have no fears about being simply kicked out of the country as I am employed here, pay a shedload of taxes and contributions into the French system and am also married to French citizen.  It wouldn't be in the French interest to kick me out unless it is a case of "stuff those Brits."  The amount of this sort of sentiment will, I think, be influenced mostly by how the UK treats it's resident EU citizens....

I'm going to do some reasearch and maybe apply for the carte de sejour.  We are already onto getting my daughter a French passport, so at least she will be OK.

We were in Oman and China before France so if it all goes pear shaped we'll go back to one of those places until the dust settles...

Good luck with your stuff - we found that going in person to the CPAM local to us helped a lot to speed up our applications for social security numbers etc.

Post edited at 16:49
 Enty 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

We have our appointment for CDS interview at the end of the month. I have had loads of great info from this FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/248686685795058/

Enty

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Enty:

Thanks for that - really useful page, so will have a look.  I don't think we'll rush anything, but we do need to start the ball rolling with CDS interviews etc...  Good luck with your stuff!

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Carless:

I don't want French nationality, as I hope that won't be necessary to carry on living here, but thanks anyway...

 

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to LeeWood:

> I haven't done a thing about my status in France,

That makes 2 of us, and I suspect there are many more

> Last week I spoke to a french chap who campaigns with the Gilet Jaunes - the law is about to get tough and suppress the demonstrations. A pity (says I) that all the violence had to creep in. Well that (says he) is the government's way of straightening things out - french police are accused of vandalism in plain clothes - done under orders in order to justify new repressive laws.

> Which I related back to my 14yr old 'french' lad. No! (says he) the government would never do that sort of thing. Really, (says I). Let no-one forget that in 1985 the french government were responsible for sinking the Rainbow Warrior, defined by some as state sponsored terrorism. And the reason it was justified ? 

I used to judge things from your son's perspective then I became wiser, or just more cynical, depending on your perspective   Let's not forget all the things our beloved UK government has also done, many of which could be defined as state-sponsored terrorism.  Nevertheless, I can't help but feel it was easier when I believed these people were all just in it for the greater good.  I'll stumble along here on that basis for now and bury my head in the sand, with the odd frightening peak at the horizon now and again...

> So here's the perspective from which to judge the outcome: commerce. If there's enough financial interest in maintaining diplomatic  relations with UK, it may well extend to reciprocal citizenship. Which in part will depend on the UKs expressions of trade and cooperation; Oops ! 

Yes, that.

And on an individual level I pay thousands in social security and impots, so I don't see how it would be in their interest to kick me out - citizen or not.  We'll see!  I think we are fairly well-positioned as a family and I hope they will be nice, but what will be, will be...

 

Post edited at 18:12
1
 Tom Valentine 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Apologies if it's been covered before, but in the event of people revoking their UK nationality and becoming French citizens,  what will be their entitlement to NHS care in the eventuality that they decide to come home to the UK for the final months of their life?

Post edited at 18:36
 Ian W 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Apologies if it's been covered before, but in the event of people revoking their UK nationality and becoming French citizens,  what will be their entitlement to NHS care in the eventuality that they decide to come home to the UK for the final months of their life?

I think your answer is in the question; their home will be in france; they will have revoked uk citizenship, and are therefore French, not British. They will then have the same rights as all other french citizens.

Post edited at 18:42
 Tom Valentine 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Ian W:

Makes total sense to me, but I suspect a few will be thinking that because they paid N.I. for, say, 25 years and/or have the rest of their family in England, they might be entitled to different treatment from a bona fide French national.

 

 Ian W 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

i agree, Tom. There are a lot of people in for some nasty surprises in all manner of areas.........

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I don't know the answer to that one.  My wife, who is a French national, paid NI contributions for over 20 years in the UK, and has paid voluntary contributions to top it up since.  Assuming no deal, I'm not sure whether she would be entitled to anything in terms of state pension, healthcare etc....  At the moment, there are reciprocal rights within the EU, but that might not be the case for much longer!

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Ian W:

> i agree, Tom. There are a lot of people in for some nasty surprises in all manner of areas.........

It's hard for anyone to avoid surprises when nobody has a clue how it will all unfold.  I've given up and just need to get on with life.  We'll be OK, whatever those morons in government decide to do.

 jethro kiernan 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Paying lots of tax has been what most immigrants have done in the UK, unfortunately didn’t stop us though when it came to vote and remove the freedom of movement and is still a red line that a lot of people believe in.

1
OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

> Paying lots of tax has been what most immigrants have done in the UK, unfortunately didn’t stop us though when it came to vote and remove the freedom of movement and is still a red line that a lot of people believe in.

Agreed, but just because the UK does it does not mean others will do it. 

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

> Paying lots of tax has been what most immigrants have done in the UK, unfortunately didn’t stop us though when it came to vote and remove the freedom of movement and is still a red line that a lot of people believe in.

Agreed, but just because the UK does it does not mean others will do it. 

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

> Paying lots of tax has been what most immigrants have done in the UK, unfortunately didn’t stop us though when it came to vote and remove the freedom of movement and is still a red line that a lot of people believe in.

Agreed, but just because the UK does it does not mean others will do it. 

 Tom Valentine 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

I'm finding it hard to understand what those "reciprocal rights " actually are.

It's one thing to get free A&E treatment for a week but longterm/terminal illness is a different matter, and the term "ordinarily resident" keeps cropping up.

Post edited at 20:02
 skog 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> in the event of people revoking their UK nationality and becoming French citizens

Not really an answer to your question, but it's probably worth noting that for many countries you don't have to revoke UK nationality to gain theirs; I think this is the case with France, and it's definitely the case with Sweden (currently, at least).

Edit - which is obviously not the same as being resident.

Post edited at 20:02
OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> I'm finding it hard to understand what those "reciprocal rights " actually are.

> It's one thing to get free A&E treatment for a week but longterm illness is a different matter, and the term "ordinarily resident" keeps cropping up.

I am no expert, bu they include a right to emergency healthcare.  Also a right to claim credit for social security (NI) contributions abroad, to count towards a pension wherever one chooses to retire.  

I need to learn much more about it as the current events lead me to think that we may have to use all our know-how to make sure the system works for us.

OP 1234None 14 Jan 2019
In reply to skog:

> Not really an answer to your question, but it's probably worth noting that for many countries you don't have to revoke UK nationality to gain theirs; I think this is the case with France, and it's definitely the case with Sweden (currently, at least).

I too think this is the case with France - my daughter will soon have a French and a British passport...no problems...

 

 skog 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Yep, my daughters (and wife) will retain their EU rights courtesy of Sweden, which is a relief. Unfortunately, I don't have any way of doing so - but at least the kids won't lose out. (Unless Sweden leaves too, that is.)

 mbh 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

I haven't read the whole thread. 

My British parents have lived in France for over 20 years. My German ex-wife has lived in the UK for 20 years, and has two daughters with me. One of those has got herself a German passport, the other hasn't yet done so.

It makes no sense for any of them to be expelled. Just the thought of someone angling for that to happen is horrific to me, but I have no confidence, right now, that tit-for-tat won't take its ridiculous course. It would only be a step or two further along a road already travelled.

 john arran 14 Jan 2019
In reply to mbh:

> It makes no sense for any of them to be expelled.

If we've learned anything at all from the last 3 years, it's that it's really not a great plan to rely on people dismissing things that don't make sense out of hand.

 

2
 French Erick 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Me: French citizen having lived in Scotland for the last 16 years...officially British since December 20th.

Folks...nobody will be forcibly removed in the near future. That is not what happened to the Windrush generation. In fact it is more sly and lazy than that. All governments need to do is wait until you come foul of the law, let you go back to your original country for a wedding, a funeral...a holiday and NOT let you back in as is their national right! 

Then, complacency over paperwork will kick in as you will have no official recourse. Houses, jobs, children will not change ANY of it. You will be on the wrong side of the law, plain and simple.

I for one, jumped though the hoops, paid the money and even swore allegiance to a Monarchy I utterly disagree with... why? Because I understand, through my Iraqi, Congolese, Bosnian, Ethiopian friends, that once the shit hits the fan than you have to have put into place as many barriers as possible between you and "them". Even that may come to fail.

My wife works in migration research and immigration machines are ruthless and inhumane if you don't stick to protocols- whether it be through ignorance, vindictiveness or whatever.

Read the small print, get things in places whenever is possible. If not for you, for your family.

Tomorrow will be an omnishambles. But you still have time to sort some things out but don't wait too long.

I grudged every step of the way, the paperwork (worth a few hours but not that bad once you get stuck in), the money (around £1700), the outrage (I f*cking shouldn't have had to do this...I have been paying my taxes for years)... but Christ did I feel less stressed once my citizenship has been validated by the home office.

I have had to compromise on a lot, perhaps in vain, yet I feel assured that I have done everything I can to ensure stability to my family (dual national kids aged 8 and 4 and a half). This may prove not enough but I very much doubt it.

To the OP, I do appreciate that you may be less keen to take roots as you have moved about a lot an have alternatives. On the plus side of a process I did not enjoy but which was relatively easy ( I am white and tick all the boxes), I can now actively vote against a Party in power and their leading figures I despise... I couldn't as just an "EU resident". That also will feel good, albeit probably futile.

2
 Dave 14 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

I am in a somewhat similar position to you as I live in Finland (EU) and am married to a Finn, though I've been here much longer than you have in France. I haven't read every word of the thread but don't believe the scare stories. I have been to a few of the UK Embassy events held for British expats here in Finland which explain in a non-partisan way what is going on and what may happen based on their discussion with the authorities here. There are similar events in France, get yourself signed up to the embassy mailing list and on the UKGov mailing list for Brexit as it relates to France. This will help you get the latest reliable information. Its disappointing that EU states have not reciprocated the stance of the UK that, irrespective of whether the UK leaves with a deal or not, EU citizens currently resident in the UK will be able to obtained settled status and remain in the UK. This is  despite pressure from the EU Parliament on EU states to do just that. However there are signs that this is changing as the Netherlands has just announced that Brits resident in the Netherlands will be able to stay under exactly the same terms as before whether its deal or no deal and apply for permanent residency if they dont have it already (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dutch-government-no-deal-solution-for-uk...) - basically reciprocating the UK stance. My guess is that this is what eventually other EU states will do - it was clearly hinted that this would happen here in Finland. I don't know specifically about how you register your presence in France but that would be good to do so that they know you are there. Basically I don't think you have much to worry about.

 Heike 14 Jan 2019
In reply to French Erick:

Really, you jumped through the hoops?. Good for you, but : Why? We shouldn't have to... Ok, you can vote now, that is the real bonus, but the rest?

 

1
 RomTheBear 14 Jan 2019
In reply to Heike:

> Really, you jumped through the hoops?. Good for you, but : Why? We shouldn't have to... Ok, you can vote now, that is the real bonus, but the rest?

He was probably right though, weirdly enough nobody seem to have noticed, but the home office changed the rules a few weeks ago, EU citizens now need to have had settled status for one year ar least before they claim citizenship.

This means that the vast majority of 3 millions of EU citizens in the UK have effectively been banned from applying for UK citizenship for the next year.

Of course this is no coincidence, they are planning to make citizenship arbitrarily hard to make sure the 3.5 millions EU citizens or so are prevented from acquiring it. That change in the rule provides the one year buffer they need to get the rules changed without risking a rush.

I can already make the safe prediction that the costs are going to at least double and the test made at least twice harder.

Post edited at 00:07
2
 yorkshireman 15 Jan 2019
In reply to Ian W:

> I think your answer is in the question; their home will be in france; they will have revoked uk citizenship, and are therefore French, not British. They will then have the same rights as all other french citizens.

Yes, you don't revoke your British citizenship/passport - you just add French. Which is ideal as I travel a lot for work, including probably about once a month to London so being able to join the UK line at immigration on and EU one when coming back to France should smooth things out.

However the thing to remember is that on French territory, you're French so if you end up getting chucked into a Guadaloupe jail or something else happens where you'd like the help of the foreign office, you're not getting any help.

 

 French Erick 15 Jan 2019
In reply to Heike:

Why? Because I have very little trust in being treated in any other manner than as a number and statistic by public servants should any issue arise. On top of that, I have complete distrust in our political leaders (on either side of the divides) of the moment...and they are the ones taking policy decisions for the foreseeable 10 years.

Now, I fully intend to keep on scratching away on Scottish crags for a whilie yet!!! I need some stability and the weather isn't giving me it.

typo

Post edited at 09:26
 neilh 15 Jan 2019
In reply to French Erick:

Well done for grasping the nettle and getting on with it.

 French Erick 15 Jan 2019
In reply to neilh:

oh I have  Grasp the Nettle (E2 5b) years ago probably when I should have done citizenship instead as by then I had been in the UK for 4 years already, already married and a year away from buying my first property... priorities eh!

 Heike 15 Jan 2019
In reply to French Erick:

> oh I have  Grasp the Nettle (E2 5b) years ago probably when I should have done citizenship instead as by then I had been in the UK for 4 years already, already married and a year away from buying my first property... priorities eh!

Hahaha. Same here!  It is a great route though!

 

 henwardian 15 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Uh, a quick cntrl+f suggests nobody suggested the Irish option yet. Do you have any Irish parents or grandparents?

My experience of this so far is that it took 10 months to get Irish citizenship (a few weeks longer if you need to order up birth/marriage/death certificates that you don't have), I have only just got it though and not applied for the passport yet, so unknown how many more months that might take. When I applied, the queue was 7 months long and it took me 10 months to get processed so in a best-case scenario where the queue is only getting longer in an linear manner and not too many people are how panicking, I'd say an application put in now is likely to take 13 months or more to get you citizenship + whatever time is needed to get first passport.

Italy already said something about giving Brits living there the same rights that they have right now, I'd predict that other European countries will do the same in an effort to avoid disruption of their personal economies caused by loads of companies suddenly losing a lot of people at exactly the same time and with minimal notice. I'd guess that countries in the EU with the largest number of Brit expats are the most likely to enact this type of legislation and France does have a very large number of Brits.... But this is all just speculation... Ultimately I don't think anyone can give you the reassurances you seek because nobody can yet know.

Don't forget to get your international driving licence if there is a no-deal situation.

 Bob Hughes 15 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

as a UK citizen you can top up your NI contributions after a period outside of the UK (regardless of where you have been). This entitles you to state pension but not sure about access to the NHS.

OP 1234None 15 Jan 2019
In reply to French Erick:

Thanks for that info and well done for getting it all done, even swearing allegiance to the monarchy!  - I need to stop procrastinating and just go grudgingly through the whole tedious process here.  

 French Erick 15 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Please do for your sake... or more likely your sanity. Stress due to feeling of insecurity (true or just perceived) can have really detrimental impacts on anyone! Having just seen the results (was having a session on my homewall with no radio/phone), you may have a bit more time yet.

My ego is a bit bruised but I crossed my toes as everyone was checking my fingers during that ceremony!

As I said earlier, the sense of relief I felt once done...was almost overwhelming.

 neilh 16 Jan 2019

IIn reply to 1234None:

What you describe as a tedious process, other migrants would welcome the opportunity to go through and be accepted.

when travelling round the world you learn to value what we have here and what others will go through to acquire citizenship in UK, Western Europe,Canada,Aus etc. And of course the USA.

It s a minor process compared with a lot of the alternatives.

1
 Wilberforce 16 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Have you read this?

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/family-residence-rights/non...

The principle here is that non-EU spouses and children of EU citizens living with EU citizens in a different EU nation should be treated as nationals in all regards by their host countries.

I don't know if this will continue to apply in your case after March (or if you'll fall under national rules instead) but it's worth finding out. Bizarrely (depending on the national rules in question) it might be easier for you all to live in Belgium (which I appreciate isn't helpful). 

OP 1234None 16 Jan 2019
In reply to neilh:

> I

> What you describe as a tedious process, other migrants would welcome the opportunity to go through and be accepted.

Yeah - I know.  It is all relative.  I have lived and spent time in many places where I've considered myself very  lucky to have the right and privileges afforded to me as a British citizen.  I have stood in the shorter queues and been invited to join the front of the queue in many places as a Westerner and nothing I am saying here reflects a lack of understanding of my own privileges.

> when travelling round the world you learn to value what we have here and what others will go through to acquire citizenship in UK, Western Europe,Canada,Aus etc. And of course the USA.

I value what I have here more than most.  I don't see why that stops me describing something as tedious.  At the same time, I can accept that certain processes are a lot more tedious for many others.  If I could make it easier for myself, and equally easy for other migrants, then I would.

If I were going to take a similar condescencing tone I would respond:  When travelling around the world you learn that there are always people who will say "but other people have it worse," seemingly failing to recognise that some of the things we have to do as privileged Westerners can still be a ball-ache.  Because things are worse elsewhere doesn't stop everyone wanting things to be easier or less bureaucratic in their own case.  

> It s a minor process compared with a lot of the alternatives.

I'll suck it up and go through the process of pledging allegiance to whatever fictional entities I need to, but it's still tedious  

 

Post edited at 09:52
OP 1234None 16 Jan 2019
In reply to Wilberforce:

Thanks - will have a look!

I think a move to Belgium is out of the question

 Doug 16 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

"I'll suck it up and go through the process of pledging allegiance to whatever fictional entities I need to, but it's still tedious  "

And until now completely unnecessary; so thank you Brexiters for inflicting this extra paperwork on your fellow citizens

2
OP 1234None 16 Jan 2019
In reply to Doug:

> And until now completely unnecessary; so thank you Brexiters for inflicting this extra paperwork on your fellow citizens

Of course it's worth it as we'll get our country back, take control of our borders or whatever...

1
 French Erick 16 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

> Of course it's worth it as we'll get our country back, take control of our borders or whatever...

No even better, you get to take another country over, and skip along your new border...

win win!

OP 1234None 16 Jan 2019
In reply to French Erick:

> No even better, you get to take another country over, and skip along your new border...

> win win!

When you put it like that what's not to like

 

 Pyreneenemec 18 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

Perhaps it's time for those demanding a second referendum to take to the streets' Gilets Jaunes' style !

Given the age divide between leavers and stayers, I'd give the stayers a decent head start  ! 

 

OP 1234None 18 Jan 2019
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

> Perhaps it's time for those demanding a second referendum to take to the streets' Gilets Jaunes' style !

Perhaps, bust most Brits, even those who want a second vote, don't have the balls or the motivation to do anything of the sort.

> Given the age divide between leavers and stayers, I'd give the stayers a decent head start  ! 

I would too, but it's all hypothetical, as it is never going to happen.

 wercat 18 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

there's a rally in Keswick on 26th - who knows what will be worn.

https://www.timesandstar.co.uk/news/17361921.keswick-rally-organised-by-gro...

OP 1234None 18 Jan 2019
In reply to wercat:

> there's a rally in Keswick on 26th - who knows what will be worn.

> https://www.timesandstar.co.uk/news/17361921.keswick-rally-organised-by-gro...

I’m sure those in power will be paying close attention to that little rally in Keswick

 wercat 19 Jan 2019
In reply to 1234None:

It might be worth going along to see if there really is someone called "Lord Adonis" as he's speaking there.  I had thought it was a made up name


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