UKC

It seems a long shot but UKC is pretty well connected.  I just wonder whether she's any more likeable and less odd in real life.

It seems she's Boris's puppet now and stood in for him on R4 this morning.  Her insincerity was so smooth and effortless that it seemed fake.  She was so completely comfortable failing to answer the question and defending the indefensible that even John Humphrys seemed to give up, presumably on the grounds that he was there to grill the organ-grinder, not his monkey.

There's something about the dead eyes and the permanent smirk in her voice that bothers me, not to mention her strange faux-outrage about the proportion of our cheese that we import.  How the hell did an ex-Lib Dem end up as Boris Johnson's fluffer?

I can't decide whether this is a wonderfully insightful comment or a statement of the bloody obvious. But I like it!

I do believe the hot air balloon that is BJ himself could easily have become, a Lib-Dem were the political wind to have taken a different direction.

I heard that interview and I found the most shocking thing about it (in which a pretty serious discussion of Boris wrongdoing was made) was how positive to Boris it was made in after editing and selecting for the following main News Broadcast.

She is off my list of decent people for good.

Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells

Not Liz Truss, but I know someone who knows Leadsom and they reckon she's worse in real life than her public persona, "a right cow" was the words used.

It was a remarkable performance. It seemed as if Truss and Humphrys were co-existing in completed different worlds, such was her capacity to avoid the questions. I was quite impressed with the array of quotes that Humphrys had at hand. Matthew Parris's evisceration was particularly notable. 

On a related note, I was struck by Alan Duncan's assertion that none of the junior ministers who had worked with Johnson at the FO were supporting his leadership challenge.  

I was aiming for the former!  She did come across very oddly, as though she was going through the motions of supporting Johnson, but trying to show that she knew he was a shit and she was only doing it because he'd promised she could be Home Secretary - but that, despite all this, she was a good person really and this was what he had to do to get into a position where she could, ultimately do the right thing.

Or maybe not. 

Yes.  And in the rest of his article he bemoans the fact that most of his colleagues in the party are fully aware of Johnson's manifest inadequacies and would vote for him anyway. 

Her parents must be really proud of her...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Truss

Look on the bright side. At least Truss isn't standing for the leadership herself.

Yet.

jcm

I have met someone who worked with her and said the same, as well as confirming that she was lying last time about the seniority of her role (well documented of course).

jcm

Yes, her biography suggests she's another dimwit right wing theorist without any technical education or practical experience, plus the zeal of a convert and the unquenchable self-confidence that Oxford PPE so often encourages.  

....because she developed her own world view and opinions rather than relying on tribalism and spoon feeding from her parents as 99% of the world does????

Even if you dont agree with her, she has thought about her reasons for doing what she is doing, u-turns, people who change party and rebels, they tend to be the deeper thinkers in uk politics.....

What the f*ck do they do to people on that course to turn them into such unmitigated arseholes?

I've just tried to listen to the interview, but I had to stop when I started throwing up blood.

  This is one of those memes that gets repeated ad infinitum and and is believed mainly just for that reason. It's lazy. Probably PPE attracts people who don't have a specific interest in alternative humanities courses like history or geography but have a general interest in how the world works. A small percentage of them want or later decide to go into politics and the basic knowledge that the course gives them on economics and politics is helpful in that.

  Thousands of other PPE graduates go on to do something completely different. Some of those that go into politics or into something else are arseholes and probably always have been.

It might be after working in government and meeting them every day.

You neglected to mention her expertise in pork markets. That certainly showed the Chinese not to try messing with us:

youtube.com/watch?v=bRhlRM6rYck&

 Did you meet them before they were PPE graduates? Was it was unique to PPE graduates?

Andrea Leadsom (claims to have) read political science at Warwick but seems to be up there with the worst.

Is it me or does Geoffrey Cox sound like Gandalf?

I am almost hoping he might scream, "you shall not leave the EU"!

Alan

In geography we aspire to prime ministers!

Truss isn't the only one, Andrew Mitchell was on this morning backing Johnson in full on 'la-la-la not listening' reality denial mode.

jk

She was shockingly awful as lord chancellor

I'm quite happy to concede that PPE might not be the single causal factor in these people being unmitigated arseholes, but let's just say that like Gypsies being thieves, or gays being bitchy, it's one of those stereotypes that's based on a statistical correlation rather than pure fiction.

A somewhat unfair characterisation, in my view. A list of PPE graduates shows a remarkable range of people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Oxford_people_with_PPE_...

Apart from Shirley Williams, that's largely a long list of cvnts.

PPE graduates are far from dominating Parliament according to the bar chart in this article.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/11/14/mps-who-studied-ppe-at-university...

I knew that lawyers were well represented, but I never knew that there were so many historians.

Do you actually have any opinions on our present political situation, or does your articulacy not extend beyond calling people arseholes and cvnts?

That's a pretty impressive list. Some proper politicians there. My concern, looking at the list is that it looks like the politicians and journalists know each other far too well. Far too many of the major political journalists are on that list. It really supports the view of the Westminster bubble. We need more interviews by people like Stephen Nolan going forensic on politicians, and less interviews by old university friends who've known each other 30 years.

Have you listened to the interview that is the subject of this thread? 

Recall that Truss, a despicable dogturd without the tiniest trace of honesty or integrity, is displaying snivelling sycophancy towards BJ in attempt to get him into power over the future of this country. BJ is our Donald Trump: he will trash my country in his own self interest. He is a clear and present danger to the things I hold dear.

So, I find Truss beneath contempt. Revolting, she makes me feel physically ill. That's a visceral reaction to the moral and intellectual desert that resides in place of her soul.

In this context, I see no reason to soften that opinion. I'm sorry if it offends you. (I'm not.)

What interests me more is how many people there are in politics who come across as thick as pig shit who went to top universities. 

I'm not offended in the least, I'm merely questioning the depth of your understanding of the issues. You have just called, to pick a few at random, Michael Foot, Roy Jenkins, Michael Crick and Isaiah Berlin cvnts. Admittedly, Jeremy Hunt did figure in that list.

I thought the fact that I'd only picked out Shirley Williams might indicate that there was an intended element of humour, but never mind...

Didn’t shock me, at least not in the sense of surprising me

jcm

Really? Barbara Castle? Michael Foot?

jcm

They do?! Douglas Carswell? Churchill?!

jcm

You're looking at this the wrong way. Politicians tend towards being self-centred arseholes and PPE graduates are noted for high achievement in a range of fields. Ergo the confluence of PPE graduate arseholes at the head of both main parties. A very significant proportion of PPE graduates meanwhile are busy educating, striving for equality or identifying and offering solutions to problems.

It's not the course, it's the career.

I only said that it tended to produce unquenchable self-confidence.  I'm happy to concede that in many cases this is perfectly justified.  I quite like Nick Robinson and he's a PPE graduate and a Conservative!

However, when this is combined with the sort of uncritical think-tank echo chamber that Liz Truss seems to have inhabited, it can be a problem: 

"Critics who have attempted to engage with her, according to George Monbiot in The Guardian, have said that she is "indissolubly wedded to a set of theories about how the world should be, that are impervious to argument, facts or experience. She was among the first ministers to put her own department on the block in the latest [2015] spending review, volunteering massive cuts. She seems determined to dismantle the protections that secure our quality of life: the rules and agencies defending the places and wildlife we love"

Wow.  There I was thinking I might have taken an unreasonable dislike to her!

Please, no one mention Diane Abbott (MA Cantab)

How many so far, John?

It's possibly not widely known, but anybody who graduates with a BA from either Cambridge, Dublin or Oxford can have it 'upgraded' to an MA after a few years simply by paying a fee, with no further examinations being necessary. (See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_(Oxford,_Cambridge,_and_Dublin...)

Anybody who chooses to do this must be a complete phoney.

(For the avoidance of doubt, all three institutions also offer 'proper' Masters level taught course and research degrees.)

"The fact is, in my opinion" - what?!?

To me, he just sounds like somebody who likes the sound of his own voice. Lot of 'em around.

To be fair, it's also a requirement if you want to vote for the Chancellor.

Far more importantly, it entitles you to the odd free High Table dinner in some colleges. 

Just Treeza, I think. I believe jcw actually taught her.

Not much obviously, but something.

jcm

Give her a break, think of all the new pork markets she has developed! 

She's among the great tragedies of Lynne Truss's life.

Ah, yes.  Of course.  I'd forgotten her already.

To be fair that pretty much covers it. You can elaborate but really there's not a lot to be gained by doing so.

seemed to do a half decent job of that:

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/uk-food-and-drink-exports-reach-record-labels

No you're right...

free thinking will only lead to decent, lets kill anyone who doesnt conform.... 

worked well for china

As George Burns said: The key to success is sincerity. If you fake that you've got it made.

I suppose what dismays me about all this is that the election of Trump has shown us that no matter how unsuitable a candidate may be shown to be, people still vote for them.

There are only two things we can hope for.

a) that tory MPs decide that in the national interest they cannot possibly endorse fatso as a potential leader of the tory party.

b) that the tories fail yet again to deliver Brexit and in a last desperate throw of the dice, hold a general election which they promptly and decisively lose.

Decent what?

jk

Exactly.  Faking insincerity is even trickier. 

That would of course require them to put national interest ahead of party interest and self-interest. The omens are not good. 

An election in that event would be a fascinating affair. The Tories would lose votes, probably very badly, the Brexit part would win many departing Tories, no-one can guess what would happen with Labour voters because no-one really knows what Labour would stand for, and the LibDems would pick up many Remain voters from both Labour and the Tories. In Scotland, there's a decent chance the Tories would lose their recent gains, with the SNP and LibDems picking up their vote. (I'm afraid I don't know what might happen in Wales or NI, and am happy to be educated.)

However, the dismally inadequate nature of the FPTP system is such that it's conceivable that something like Peterborough would be repeated, with the Tories and the Brexit party splitting that part of the vote, leaving the Brexit party with few MPs, Labour could squeak in, albeit with a relatively small share of the vote, and the LibDems increase their number of seats. The LibDems and the SNP could be the kingmakers in any coalition, and we can be sure the SNP will (a) not get into bed with the Tories and (b) drive a hard bargain with regard to IndyRef2. 

Fascinating times. If only it weren't the case that there aren't important things such as health, education, social care, policing, housing, pensions, disability benefits, the economy, and so on to be dealt with. 

If things stayed as they are the current polling suggests either a Labour/Lib Dem coalition or a Tory/Brexit party coalition.

There's not a chance Labour would go into coalition with the SNP.

Jeremy did finally say that any deal would have to go to a confirmatory vote, so if Labour got into government there would be a second vote. None of the other parties who they could go into coalition with would do so without that assurance anyway.

I've never met Liz Truss, but I have met her sister, Roof,..................

Paul Gambaccini, who knew?!

Unlike Glasgow where we just get the MA straight off!

Toby (MA Hons. Glasgow), MA (1 year taught normal type, Leeds).

Yes, that's confusing to an outsider. But not quite as shit as somebody doing a 3 year BA at Oxford, and then a few years later converting it to an MA in exchange for a few quid.

but isn't there a Dr Toby in there as well ? (Doug BSc (Hons) Stirling, PhD Aberdeen)

No one leaves Oxbridge questioning whether their BA is enough to get them a job interview, instead praying for the day to come when they can boost it to an MA for a pittance, at which point doors will fling open to invite them into the directors' suite.

It's just a quaint old tradition that's well understood in academic circles.

Or, to look at it another way, I didn't even bother to attend graduation after passing my finals, so technically I don't even have a degree, but employers haven't slammed doors in my face or required me to accept a lower wage.

Part of my point was that this scam is not at all well known outside academic circles. Many people will assume that an MA from Oxford is a higher qualification than is a BA. But it isn't: it's just been bought.

Completely unrelated. Either you have officially graduated - in absentia or otherwise - or you haven't. In the first case, you have a degree; in the second, you don't.

And her brother, Serge Ickle

just the one, but I'm no longer there for special attention. She was a gutsy kid and got a raw deal, shouldn't have stuck to principals. The present contenders  certainly won't and let them sink in the own merde. Ms Truss (PPE Merton ) amongst them : and IDS first and foremost (jcm will know why). 

But to what purpose? MA is a designation that only has relevance in the academic world, where these quaint traditions are well understood. I never got laid by claiming to have an MA, nor cheated my way to a better job. How can it be a scam when no one cares what type of degree you've got once they find out you went to Oxbridge? They either assume you are a "posh tw*t" or quite bright and hardworking, often all of those things.

However, if you want to develop the conversation, you might be interested to learn that Cambridge tends not to accept students for doctoral studies even with a first class MA from elite Durham, Warwick etc, until the student achieves a second MA, an even more "proper" one, from either Oxford or Cambridge. Make of that what you will.

Is it very expensive?

7 gns I think when I converted my BA. It meant that when I came back and did a DPhil I could say yah boo and sucks to the Proctors and not have to put a green light on my car. 

Did you teach Geography!? (I was there 96-99).

Only prominent Tory I knew was Hancock, who was across the road at Exeter. We only ever knew him as ‘ Lippy’. Go figure.

As to the general queries about the MA, I seem to remember it being a nominal sum to go back round again. I think we only did it to meet up with mates and have a few beers. It’s certainly not a scam and everyone knows what it means.

Took me a while, but classy

In the 90s when we had the last vestiges of student grants, mine covered it. The overseas students had to pay, a tenner I think it was, certainly £ double figures. Also if you did it in person you had to borrow or hire a gown, but you did get a very nice free lunch from your college as part of it. The way money was made out of it was selling official photos and upgraded certificates and frames - the one you got handed at the time was cheap and ugly.

Could you please elaborate on this? Did you attend a university that would not "technically" (?) grant you your earned degree due to your absence from a fancy-dress day that I had perhaps too cynically assumed was by the 1990s - at least at my universities - designed to make a bunch of cash for a cloak-and-mortar-board rental company and photographer affiliated to the university?

I attended both my graduations only to please my parents and I was never under the impression that absence would mean that I might not "technically" have my degrees. 

This post is a genuine and earnest question, not an attack or a mockery. I am curious as to why you feel you "technically...don't even have a degree". So I'd appreciate some courtesy in your response, thank you

Apparently Leadsom has said that gay marriage bothers Christians somehow - seeing it as something people should take account of.  

you are posting a lot more frequently than usually, and on a wider variety of topics than usual, and later at night than usual, and with an every so slightly more edgy tone than usual. 

I hope everything is OK in Timmd world. 

Yes, and now I can even put PGCE after my name as well should I be so inclined (which I'm not!).

More relevant perhaps to this thread is that I applied to do PPE at New College and even got interviewed for a couple of days but didn't get accepted. It was a close thing as well, I was down to something like the last 15 for 8 places. I sometime wonder whether life would have been radically different had I got in.

It's a long time ago now but I still remember in that last group there was just one other kid who, like me, came from a comp. She was Liverpudlian, blond and I remember rather lovely. She got in so she was obviously smarter than me too! I hope she went on to do great things.

She's really let herself go intellectually since "EatsShoots & Leaves" hasn't she?

b

It was a flippant comment that simply means I can't provide evidence of my degree to an employer. I have no certificate, though no doubt I could have asked for them to post it.

I've only once been asked to prove that I went to Oxford. This when I performed rather badly in an aptitude test which preceded a job interview (I had received some crushing news that morning), such that they wondered if I was a bright as they had expected.

The withering look with which I delivered the refusal duly secured me the job offer, thus lending proof to the assertion that Oxbridge imparts an ineffable confidence to its alumni which sweeps all before it*

* not to be taken seriously. But I did get the job

I developed a fascination with her when she was Minister for Farmers' Interests, sorry, Environment Secretary. She is weird to an almost charismatic degree. 

  I've just checked and it's £40 nowadays. There's inflation for you. I can understand why Mr.Parsons appears to think that, unlike the free MA at Glasgow, this is an iniquitous scam reserved for the super wealthy.....

I think its an iniquitous scam reserved for those who have taken a BA at any University which perpetuates this anachronism. As I said: most people with a Masters degree have done research, or a course of study, which has that explicit award at the end of it. Not bought it for 40 notes.

Yes! Glad it’s not just me. Aside from her almost deliberately offensive politics, I really did wonder whether anyone had met her- does she come across badly under pressure or is she really as peculiar as she seems?

  Up the workers comrade!! But why is worse than  for Glasgow to doing it  for free?

I had mine (Cantab) a few weeks ago and it was definitely free. In fact I got a lunch out of it so overall I think I came out ahead. Also (to Rob Parsons) I believe the majority of my year took up the MA so hardly a scam for a few phoneys.

It's daft and pointless and anachronistic and therefore fits in well with many higher education traditions.

  Lucky you didn't go to Oxford which appears to make you pay through the nose (£40)!

Reminds me of a joke about a talking dog......

The scam is that at most Universities, you actually have to study for a masters, usually involving at least a year of extra study including research modules. I wouldn’t expect universal knowledge of which Universities offer this, the ones I am aware of, I am only aware because I know people who went there.

I think it's silly and a touch vainglorious - rather than iniquitous - in this day and age. I appreciate there were some practical advantages in the past but why anyone nowadays would want this after their name is beyond me. After all, it's a dead giveaway to anyone in the know. What most annoys me about it is that it risks feeding the stereotype that Oxbridge is mired in a past of privilege and antiquated tradition - a stereotype I was always battling as the headteacher of a comp. (I certainly didn't "incept" as I think taking it up is called. Mind you, nor did I attend my graduation, having sold my gown immediately after finals and spent the money on getting off my head.) 

I can see that the Oxbridge MA is elitist but it doesn't give an unfair advantage for two reasons:

- You can only take it up a minimum of two years after graduating by which stage previous employment is far more important than degree

- Given it involves no work people do not put it on their CVs. It's just too awkward to explain to an interviewer and would make you look dishonest.

You probably mean that as a joke but I reckon I've googled it at least a couple of times over the years as I couldn't remember if they were the same person or not. Indeed, I just did it again now, as I still couldn't remember - which suggests she is something of a personality vacuum.

Anyways, for anyone who isn't sure Lizz - dodgy Tory; Lynne - hectoring grammar pedant.

They are not free if you are English anymore.

In case you don't know, we were always told you go MAs/MScs etc from the old Scottish unis because you do 4 years not three (although arguably what you do in first year may well have been covered in A level for those of us who were from England, or went to Scottish schools that did A levels - some of my mates were in that latter group although I don't know how widespread it was/is).

  Raaaaciiissmmmm!!

  As you imply, there's no evidence that a Scottish degree takes one further in terms of education than an English one so no more justification for a Glasgow degree conferring a BA than an Oxford degree.

Well, there is a difference of a year of studying. I wonder if any Scottish teachers or lecturers reading this know if many/any Scottish young people still start uni aged 17 as used to be possible (although that didn't even seem very common when I started in the early 90s)?

Probably?!

definitely  - not a funny one admittedly 

Yep, but I retired in 1997 and was not doing any first year lecturing:!but you might have come across me if you were a climber then and attended my farewell OUMC dinner. 

It's becoming popular at English universities too.  Most institutions now seem to require an MSc before you can start a PhD.  Some do this by tacking on a postgraduate Masters year before the PhD, others offer an MSci or MRes as an extra year on their undergraduate courses if you have a good enough grade average. 

20 years ago York was doing 4 years to an MEng undergrad courses, it wasn't unusual. Anyone struggling in year 2 got booted at three years with a BEng. Always seemed a bit harsh, the 4th year wasn't really any harder than the 3rd, just more self-lead.

jk

Fairly sure you could get an MA in 3 years at Aberdeen, with 4 years for  MA (hons) - not checked to see if that's still true. 

Did she open up her pork market? Or did she just have a jolly in China?

IIRC, you have to be 'working in the field' of your BA.

I don't think it's that unknown, and I'd expect anyone recruiting to be aware of it.

I'm sure that is absolutely in no way related to fee-paying courses...

Surrey were doing it 40 years ago. Well, 37 at least...

You recall incorrectly. It's just a matter of waiting for the decreed number of years; what you do in that period is irrelevant. See (again) e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_(Oxford,_Cambridge,_and_Dublin...

I myself had no idea before yesterday that the same scam applied to Dublin. Did you?

Thanks. FWIW at both my graduation ceremonies I was not given my degree certificate. For posing for photos on stage as we collect it, and later in the photo booth thingy, we had a rolled up blank paper with a ribbon round it! The certificates were mailed later. Presumably in the interests of them not getting trashed during the celebrations. 

I had to produce my certificates for a job with the institution that awarded them!

Oh god - I feel sick now...

b

I feel your pain

I have never once had to produce a certificate for a gcse,a level, or any of my three degrees. I imagine that putting my old supervisor as academic reference for stuff sufficed. Always considered certificates to be an ugly, forgeable, non disaster tolerant way of proving anything and a central registry or trust network renders them pointless.

Unfortunately this attitude of mine came back to bite me on the backside when applying to be a volunteer kayak coach, when they demanded evidence that I had completed a course in basic canoe skills, and after a day of rummaging through the never-before-examined family dusty certificate pile I found that I had only been given a “pass slip, to be exchanged for a certificate within six months upon payment of £6” which I had never got round to doing, and that wasn’t good enough. oops.