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ARTICLE: 10 Things to Do at a Sport Crag

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 UKC Articles 27 Aug 2019
A typical visit to a sport crag. Compared with Himalayan, Alpine or even trad climbing, sport climbing should be a relatively safe affair. But the very fact that it should be relatively safe means that many people don't take it as seriously as they need to. And therein lies the potential for disaster.

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1
 Alex Riley 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Knotting the end of the rope is a pretty key element of a safe sport climbing system that seems to have been omitted. I believe more accidents happen from lowering off the end of the rope than tying in incorrectly, so include it in your checks before leaving the ground.

On a less serious note, you missed what to do when you need a massive....

Post edited at 10:42
 barry donovan 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles; 

I’ve seen so many posts where some smart arse looks up the profile of the author in order to make some ludicrous value judgment about them - ‘last climb you logged was only V Diff ‘. etc etc.  So for the first time  - just curious - I looked up the author - the profile was just perfect.  Many thanks Mick. 

 Mick Ward 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

> Knotting the end of the rope is a pretty key element of a safe sport climbing system that seems to have been omitted.

To quote: 'This list certainly isn't comprehensive. It's just a few basics.'  Really it's just a starter. If we get to 15 things we should all be doing, then no-one will be happier than me - as long as we do them! As it happens, I can think of another one which suddenly seems to have bobbed up over the horizon: people clip sticking the second bolt and not having the rope into a quickdraw on the first. If the second bolt fails...

Re knots, I do a mental computation of length of pitches versus length of rope. The slightest doubt and there's a knot in the end of the rope!  But maybe you're right and we should all be doing it every single time. Even with a knot tied though, I still keep a very beady eye indeed on the remaining rope as I'm lowering someone. The knot isn't an excuse for taking anything for granted.

Thanks for your observation!

Mick

 Gambit 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

I agree, missing out putting a knot in the end of the rope is a huge omission. I remember being at Stoney, half way through explaining to my son how important it is when there was a thud next to us from someone who had not done so. Fortunately the climber was only shaken but not too badly hurt, but what a lesson!

 1poundSOCKS 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

> people clip sticking the second bolt and not having the rope into a quickdraw on the first. If the second bolt fails...

Does this add significant risk? If I do clip the second then I tend to clip the first to keep the rope out of the way rather than for safety. The second and even third bolt failing could result in ground fall even with the bolt below clipped.

 Alex Riley 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

I appreciate it's not a definitive list (where would you stop!), but for an article that beginners would likely search out, knotting the end is a fundamental safety check/feature that prevents unnecessary accidents.

I enjoyed the article, it was well written (as always), just felt it worth mentioning (it could easily be included in the tying in section).

​​​​​​Alex

1
 mrphilipoldham 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

I thought this was going to include things like “Play banging tunes on a Bluetooth speaker”! 

 neilh 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

Therein lies the voice of experience. When climbing with a 70 metre rope I would not even entertain tying a know in the end if the route was 15-25 metres long.

You could argue its good practice at all times. I would say its good practice to think about things and whether they are relevant.

 Mick Ward 27 Aug 2019
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I tend not to clip stick the second bolt but, if I did, I'd want the first one also clipped, both to keep the rope out of the way, like you, and as backup, anyway. Of course, even with that backup, you might still be unlucky, if the bolt fails. But, without that backup, if the bolt fails, you're definitely for it.

I think it's back to Colin Mortlock. People feel the second bolt being clipped is safer but, without the first one also clipped, is it really safer?

Yesterday I saw a couple at the crag. The guy got to maybe the fourth bolt and bailed. When I looked across next, the lady seemed to be top-roping up to the top bolt, with nothing else clipped in. Clearly she felt safe...

Mick

 Alex Riley 27 Aug 2019
In reply to neilh:

It's an article about climbing safety. There are a number of well known climbers that have lowered off the end of a rope, experience allows us to get it right most of the time, but there are always unfortunately exceptions.

I'm not saying I knot the rope 100% of the time, just that its something essential to know about as a safety concern.

2
 sheppy 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Thoroughly enjoyed that article. It covered most of the main issues on Sport climbing safety and also wandered into the realm of responsible use of the gear to increase its longevity. Being an equipper of many years this is something that is close to my heart.

It was well written in a light-hearted way without being "preachy". Made me stop and think... have I become complacent, are the buddy checks actually checks or just paying lip service? Even after 35 years of sport climbing it was good to get a wake up call.

Thanks Mick

 GridNorth 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Great article as always Mick.  My only minor, minor criticism is the pictures chosen to show the belayer positions.  Neither is perfect (See below) but I would not have serious issues with either. Indeed my Click-Up advises that the rope should be directly in front of you to optimise paying out.  If the guy shown was using a Click-Up I don't think he could get any nearer. Indeed I think I could count on one hand the number of times the second belayers position could be achieved with a foot essentially touching the wall which in itself can be problematical. This would make giving slack with some devices very difficult and quite often good belaying demands that the belayer can step forwards and backwards.

Unfortunately Whymper didn't heed his own advice

Al

Post edited at 13:55
8
Andy Gamisou 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

> I tend not to clip stick the second bolt but, if I did, I'd want the first one also clipped, both to keep the rope out of the way, like you, and as backup, anyway. 

When I lead up a route I often unclip the first bolt (if I can do so easily) once I've clipped the second so that if I fall off higher up the route my belayer doesn't get catapulted into the first bolt (my usual climbing partner (my wife) is a fair bit lighter than me,  and this has happened).  I don't regard the probability of falling onto the second bolt and it failing being high enough to give it much thought.  If the second bolt did fail, and the first bolt was clipped, then I doubt it would save a ground fall anyway unless I hadn't moved much beyond the second bolt.  

Thanks for the article though, I've probably had more close calls sport climbing than trad - probably because I push myself much harder on sport, so it's nice to be reminded of safe practices.

Bit surprised the wearing of helmets is not mentioned more (must admit I tend not to wear one, but I know I really should).

Post edited at 13:49
 1poundSOCKS 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

> I think it's back to Colin Mortlock. People feel the second bolt being clipped is safer but, without the first one also clipped, is it really safer?

> Yesterday I saw a couple at the crag. The guy got to maybe the fourth bolt and bailed. When I looked across next, the lady seemed to be top-roping up to the top bolt, with nothing else clipped in. Clearly she felt safe...

Assuming the bolts look okay, I'm mostly happy to assume they won't fail. Obviously bolt failure does happen, but as far as I can tell it's incredibly rare and there are so many other things to worry about...

 neilh 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

I have witnessed one well known climber taking a fall sports climbing and seriously damaging himself due to poor belaying by another well known climber. 

I would say the two most important areas are (1) the buddy check and (2) belaying. 

 Alex Riley 27 Aug 2019
In reply to neilh:

Agreed and part of the buddy check is making sure the rope is long enough or ideally putting a knot in the end.

 neilh 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

But off course...

 Jon Greengrass 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> Bit surprised the wearing of helmets is not mentioned more (must admit I tend not to wear one, but I know I really should).

considering that most UK sport climbing is on limestone choss, a helmet is a must.

9
 Wiley Coyote2 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Very good article. After almost 40yrs of sport climbing I have no doubt whatsoever that the biggest danger is complacency. Only recently a very experienced friend was lowered off the end of an unknotted rope by an equally experienced belayer. The first leader had lowered safely  off quickdraws so they knew the rope was long enough. Right? Wrong! The second leader had to thread the anchors and his method used quite a bit of rope. The result was a drop - albeit relatively short  -  into boulders that left him with broken bones and a minimum 6 months recovery period.

I think part of the problem is that for too many of my generation belaying is seen as a passive, resting and relaxing  part of the day rather than a crucial and highly responsible job. This is especially true of sport climbing where it is hard to shift the attitude of 'Stop worrying; you're on bolts. It's not exactly Gogarth is it'

 Mick Ward 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

You've really got me thinking about knots in ends of ropes! Not a bad thing, as I've known people who survived going off the end of the rope. I guess there are two schools of thought - mine and neilh's, that you use judgement at all times, i.e. do that mental computation about rope length re where you're climbing (and maybe there's one route which is much longer than the others - an extension?)  Obviously the other school of thought is that you put a knot in the end of the rope every single time - or have it already knotted into a rope bag (err... have just belatedly realised this is what I do - oops, most embarrassing!) 

An interesting corollory is top ropes in climbing walls. I've been to places where the extra length has seemed distinctly skimpy (especially given people's increasing predeliction for standing far out) and knotted the end, when belaying. I'm the only person I've ever seen doing this. Again it's judgement vis a vis standard operating procedure. Maybe all top ropes should have knotted ends??

Mick

 GridNorth 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

I always have the bottom of my rope tied into the loop on the rope bag.  It only gets undone when I need to remove any twists or pull the rope all the way through. It then gets tied bag in straight away.  That way my default position is rope fastened to bag but I still check.

Al

 AlanLittle 27 Aug 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

Same here.

 Mick Ward 27 Aug 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

Hi Al, agree, the setups probably aren't perfect - but, trust me, they're way, way better than what I see on a daily basis just a few meters away. I'm deliberately trying to stay out of best practice because, so often in climbing, there's a tradeoff. I'd rather that people are using their judgement every single time they go climbing. And that's what worries me most. It's as though many people aren't using any significant kind of judgement. As Wiley Coyote says, there's a complacency, a lazy sense that sport climbing is always safe. And this comes from two lots of people: those who don't know otherwise (thus this article!) and, sadly, those who should know better.

Poor old Whymper - arguably the best FA in history but at far too high a price. But he's left us a precious legacy, the realisation that it's all about judgement.

Mick

P.S. Ken Wilson, bless him, used to go on and on about 'serving your apprenticeship'. As ever, when it mattered, he was right.

 Adam_42 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Excellent article. My partner has some friends who have recently started climbing and I was shocked to discover that they thought it perfectly acceptable to top rope with the rope through the anchors. Hopefully this write up brings it to more people's attention as it is something I see at the crag quite regularly.

I should also thank you for giving me a nudge on point 8. It's something I've been told about before but must admit I rarely remember to do when working a route on top rope. 

On the subject of things being omitted, I agree that it's hard to have an exhaustive list, but the article did get me to thinking that a series on sport skills such as clip sticking up a route or lowering off a single bolt with aid of a prusik (which would probably have overladen this article with detail) would probably be a very useful resource. 

 dereke12000 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

I try and leave one end of the rope tied to the rope mat (alternating ends every now and then).

This has the advantage that it would be obvious if someone tried to pull the rope down (with a knot still in the end, not unknown) and the knot started disappearing up towards the anchors...

 danm 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

I think you'd be interested to see the conclusions found by those who read and analyse accident and near miss reports. There are many examples where experienced climbers have had accidents or near misses for reasons like those given above by Wiley. Always knotting the rope as the default option helps prevent these sort of accidents. Other examples I've read of have included: rebelaying to equip an adjacent line, lowering at an angle onto a longer facet of crag, or simply moving a few routes across and failing to reconsider the route length. It's human nature to use the fact that something has been repeatedly shown to be safe to repeat it despite an important factor changing, with often catastrophic results. 

In reply to Wiley:

That's a good example to report using the BMC near miss and accident scheme if possible, either yourself as a witness or any of the involved are able to do this if they choose to.

 dereke12000 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

... and a definite yes to helmets, especially for the belayer. Mine could be dead if he wasn't wearing his helmet on Sunday ...

 Paul Sagar 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Gambit:

Saw somebody almost get lowered off the end of the rope at Rainbow Slab in the slate quarries a couple of weeks ago. Luckily one rope was longer than the other and the belayer held on to the longer end, which hadn’t gone through by a few inches... Which goes to show: it can happen to trad climbers, too! 

 Iamgregp 27 Aug 2019
In reply to dereke12000:

Yep same, bottom of the rope through the red loop on the mat, top through the green one, then give it a flake every now and then and re-tie...

Though I even tie a knot in the end of my rope climbing indoors when I'm 100% certain there no wall in the place that is too long for my rope... Think I'm a bit obsessive.

 Wiley Coyote2 27 Aug 2019
In reply to dereke12000:

> ... and a definite yes to helmets, especially for the belayer.

On Yorkshire limestone I often think the belayer needs a helmet more than the climber. It does mean that for simple self preservation we often belay further over to the side than a purist might like

.

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 27 Aug 2019
In reply to neilh:

> Therein lies the voice of experience. When climbing with a 70 metre rope I would not even entertain tying a know in the end if the route was 15-25 metres long.

I leave the knotted end of the rope in the rope-bag at all times, easiest solution!

Chris

 Carless 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Yep same, bottom of the rope through the red loop on the mat, top through the green one, then give it a flake every now and then and re-tie...

I do the same but I tie a double knot in the bottom end and a single knot in the top so it doesn't matter which loops the ends are tied to

 FreshSlate 27 Aug 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

I agree that stepping forward and backward can really help to pay out slack. However, in the picture labelled unnecessary risk is a clear case of someone too far back considering how low the climber is off the ground.

Irrespective of the belay device used the climber is going to hit the ground if they fall. Standing that far back becomes ok after the third or fourth bolt or so but at the start you need to be really close. 

If anything in the second picture the belayer should be ideally further right and appears to be locked off and short roping the leader who is attempting to clip so agree neither picture is ideal too!

Post edited at 17:46
 GridNorth 27 Aug 2019
In reply to FreshSlate:

It's debatable. In the first picture the belayer would be able to "field" a falling leader.  Adopting the position in the second picture is, I would suggest, hard to achieve much of the time.  It's interesting to note that different routes were used to illustrate the principles being discussed. Most of the time I would think that somewhere between the two positions might be the ideal if the landscape allows i.e. the second belayer could afford to step back a little and the first belayer could afford to step forward a little. Unfortunately conditions are seldom ideal. I would go a stage further and suggest that adopting the position of belayer two is hardly ever achievable.

Al

Post edited at 18:12
 kevin stephens 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Good article

8. Top-rope with the last quickdraw clipped. is particularly important but I rarely see it done

No mention of the dangers of backclipping,

Helmets; at the very least a risk assessment on whether, where and when to wear one 

1
 Mick Ward 27 Aug 2019
In reply to kevin stephens:

Many thanks. The article was never meant to be comprehensive - just a few basics. I'm happy for it to become more comprehensive due to people's replies; for me, this is the beauty of writing on the internet.

I suspect however that there is a sharp disconnect between people replying to this thread (and thanks to all those who have) and my 'target audience'. The former undoubtedly include those whose ropework is far superior to mine. But the latter is asking for trouble on a routine basis. For instance, backclipping is certainly a problem - but most times I see it, the belaying is terrible anyway. So which do you address first?  The more comprehensive the list, the greater the likelihood of people not being arsed and ignoring everything. I just want them (actually I'm pretty well begging them!) to get a few basics right. And keep getting them right - again and again and again. Hopefully when they get the absolute basics right, they can go on to raise their game.

Re helmets, normally I take one with me and make a route by route assessment as to whether to use it. To me, that's a judgement call - a risk assessment. Most people seem to either wear one all the time or don't wear one at all. Yet again it's judgement vis a vis standard operating procedures. The latter certainly help - but ultimately it's judgement which keeps us alive.

Tricky - but important - stuff!

Mick

Post edited at 19:11
1
 neilh 27 Aug 2019
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I do not use rope bag all the time , sometimes they are an absolute pita. 

 Tobes 27 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

A good article and healthy debate. 

For your target audience do you think the messages might be a little mixed with regards to point 7. 

‘Top-rope (bottom rope) through quickdraws, not the anchors’

and the images in point 6 referring to (and illustrating) using both bolts/staples for lowering off, with the rope running through the anchor.  

could this be interpreted as top/bottom roping through bolts = bad, lowering off bolts = ok. 

To be consistent with the notion of reducing ware to the anchor bolts shouldn’t ‘abbing’ off be suggestion/promoted rather than running a rope through? 

6
 Wiley Coyote2 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

>

> To be consistent with the notion of reducing ware to the anchor bolts shouldn’t ‘abbing’ off be suggestion/promoted rather than running a rope through? 

On a sport route I don't carry anything I don't need. So if the clips are in, my lightweight harness is stripped of everything with the possible exception of a single lightweight screwgate if I know I am going to be the last one up and will need to thread the anchors.  If I am putting the clips in I carry exactly the number I need, not a single one more.

Of course the additional weight of an ATC is almost certainly never going to be the difference between success and failure, especially given my own hefty construction but to me it's a psychological thing, Knowing I'm in my lightest harness rather than my  heftier trad rig, knowing I've ditched all superfluous  gear, knowing I'm wearing my best shoes and they are squeaky clean is all part of telling myself that I have stacked the odds in my favour as much as I possibly can and I WILL climb that route.

Post edited at 00:10
1
 Tobes 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Fair enough, however I’d be interested to hear from those that equip sport routes also. 

The image of the anchor affected by bottom roping highlights the issue of rope wear. Lowering off anchor bolts, although only in one continuous direction surely contributes to this wear. 

Can this be justified when there are alternatives? 

 Robert Durran 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

> To be consistent with the notion of reducing ware to the anchor bolts shouldn’t ‘abbing’ off be suggestion/promoted rather than running a rope through? 

The trouble with that is that you'd either  need to climb on double ropes or have a single rope twice asong as the routes. It wouldn't catch on!

12
 Tobes 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

Eh?

you’re at the anchor. Make yourself safe, untie and match both ends on the ground/bring middle marker to the anchor. Put through abseil device and prussic. Away you go.

unless I’m missing a ‘joke’ somewhere....

 Mark Eddy 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

A really good and well written article, thanks Mick. I'm guilty of not always tying a knot in the end of rope, but am getting much better at it, this is a nice reminder for me, thanks.

Also remember top-roping directly through the anchors because I didn't know any better! Earlier this year we had a reminder from a local bolting team near Castell de Castells in Costa Blanca that we must use our own gear for top roping (we were using our own gear), and this made for a good discussion point for some of the others I was with that day.

Not wearing a helmet whilst belaying shows little respect for your climbing partner, and is dangerous. I note it mentioned above about 'risk assessment' for this. The risk assessment will always conclude that wearing a helmet whilst belaying is considerably safer than not. And whilst climbing, it's obviously safer too. With so many designs and styles available, there's a helmet to suit everyone.

2
 Robert Durran 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

> Eh?

> you’re at the anchor. Make yourself safe, untie and match both ends on the ground/bring middle marker to the anchor. Put through abseil device and prussic. Away you go.

> unless I’m missing a ‘joke’ somewhere....

No, just  me being fantastically thick.

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> The trouble with that is that you'd either  need to climb on double ropes or have a single rope twice as long as the routes. It wouldn't catch on!

Isn't "a single rope twice as long as the routes" what we all use?

Chris

 Tobes 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

Ha brilliant!, for a moment I really thought I was losing it. 

 duncan 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

> The image of the anchor affected by bottom roping highlights the issue of rope wear. Lowering off anchor bolts, although only in one continuous direction surely contributes to this wear. 

> Can this be justified when there are alternatives?

This is a reasonable argument for abseiling but I think you are wrong. The practice of lowering is almost universal and not just because it is more convenient. Have you tried cleaning a steep sport route by abseil? 

The US like to be the exception and this applies to getting down from sport routes. Some American climbers advocate abseiling, to conserve anchors and probably because of historical precedent (many trad. routes stop short of the top of large cliffs and are rappelled). Others advocate lowering, like those poncy Euros. There is a mix of the two practices currently. As a direct consequence of this inconsistency there are regular serious accidents due to confusion or mis-communication as to how the leader intends to get down from their route.  We should stick with one method and it should be lowering.   

1
 Tobes 28 Aug 2019
In reply to duncan:

Yes - to cleaning steep routes on abb.

No - not just a practice in the US. Many guide books (UK) recommend the practice to extend the longevity of the hard ware.

Edit - sorry wrong person! “your initial defence to lowering was to do with ‘not taking anything extra’ on the harness” ignore.  

you make a point about safety. I’d argue that it’s a fundamental skill to be able to independently abb off (anything really). 

Again i’d like to get the opinion of those who put in the effort of putting up sport routes whether repeatedly lowering off the hardware is something that concerns them. 

i can tell you’re quite reasonable and willing to consider both sides of the debate... ; ) 

Post edited at 11:20
4
 Mick Ward 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

> Again i’d like to get the opinion of those who put in the effort of putting up sport routes whether repeatedly lowering off the hardware is something that concerns them. 

I put up sport routes (circa 250), use staples and am entirely happy with people lowering off them (as long as they're doing it safely). Sure, the staples will get worn in time and will need replacing (they'll need replacing anyway). As long as they're not getting wantonly trashed by people top-roping through them on a regular basis, it's fine by me.

I completely agree with Duncan that we should stick to one method and it should be lowering. Any hint of poor communication at the anchors makes my stomach churn. The only person I've seen abbing off sport routes is a very well-known climber who was making it easier for his wife, who weighs considerably less. They know exactly what they're doing. Others may not.

Mick

1
 Robert Durran 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

>   If I am putting the clips in I carry exactly the number I need, not a single one more.

I generally carry a couple of extra quick draws so that, in extremis, I'm almost certainly going to have the option of one on either side of my harness for optimum ease of clipping. It also means I can use the spare ones clipped together to attach myself to the anchor while I untie and thread the anchor for lowering off (yes, I know this is not considered "best practice" but I'm always very careful and I've not killed myself yet, and it means I don't have to carry any slings or whatever).

 Robert Durran 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

> Re helmets, normally I take one with me and make a route by route assessment as to whether to use it. To me, that's a judgement call - a risk assessment. 

Agreed. There's not much point in wearing a helmet on an overhanging route where any rock knocked off won't hit you anyway (unless you are a light belay and might be smashed into the crag in the event of a fall). I would only wear a helmet while actually climbing in very particular circumstances. 

Having said that, the final call rests with the leader and if the leader asked me to wear a helmet, I would belay with one without question - likewise if they asked me to use an assisted belay device (though I would warn them to expect hopeless belaying if I'd forgotten my Click-up and they handed me a Grigri!).

 sheppy 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Carless:

Do the same thing as not all my rope bags have green loop for the "go" end and red for "totally snarled up mess" end!

 sheppy 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

Yes it concerns me massively. It seems particularly common where the LO you place is of the opening type where threading is not required.

This is I feel a symptom of increasing numbers of wall raised climbers where this practice is the norm.

As I have got older and undoubtedly less tolerant of peoples lack of common sense I may have caused some offence in the past for pointing out why not to do this. 

 Iamgregp 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Carless:

Good idea that...

 Iamgregp 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

If you look at the published accident figures (for example from YOSAR) way more accidents happen from abseiling than anything else at a sport crag.

Yes, lowering causes wear on the anchors which can make them dangerous (and creates a need for them to be replaced) but I think this is a lesser evil than the upsurge in accidents we'd get if abseiling became the norm.

 Iamgregp 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

I used to make a judgement call on whether or not to wear my helmet, but then I realised that on the occasions I did wear my helmet it would put me off a bit... I felt like it affected my balance and made me clumsy, so I decided to just wear it all the time outdoors, then if I'm at a crack where it's really required my climbing won't be affected.

Forget I'm wearing it now.  Finished my lunch and started looking all around the crag for it recently. It was on me head.

 Tobes 28 Aug 2019
In reply to sheppy:

Cheers Neil,

Another aspect not considered/over looked by some perhaps is that often (more often than not?) the anchor points (bolts, staples etc) aren’t always at equal height/position to each other.

This inevitably means one (the higher point) will wear faster than the other, leading to quicker deterioration surely? 

I get your other points. 

 ianstevens 28 Aug 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I was sad it didn’t. To my mind there’s only four essential things to do:

1. Put up a hangboard and use one to warm up

2. Dog/clip stick to the top

3. Put on banging choooonz

4. Fall off

1
 Phil79 28 Aug 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> I thought this was going to include things like “Play banging tunes on a Bluetooth speaker”! 

No, that's in next weeks article : "10 things you'll find intensely annoying at a the crag".

Also includes someone taking a s**t on the belay ledge, dropping all your nuts in the sea, and tops off/beanies on.  

 full stottie 28 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Enjoyed the article a lot, and its made me realise that I've become very complacent since I started sport climbing 15 years ago (from a longer trad background). My buddy checks are intermittent and cursory, I only knot the rope when I remember, and have been less than rigorous in top-roping arrangements. As I, and my climbing partners, insist on getting older every year, we tend to assume that our ropework practices are so experienced that they are therefore second nature, instinctive and sound, and you've given me a valuable wake-up call.

Cheers for that

Dave

 Tobes 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Iamgregp:

> If you look at the published accident figures (for example from YOSAR) way more accidents happen from abseiling than anything else at a sport crag.

Are these stats specific to abseiling at sport venues or collectively 'all types' of lowering off/abseiling situations?

Those two activities are worlds apart imo if that is the case. One (lowering off) requires two coordinated people (climber and belayer) a series of communications, knowledge of rethreading/untying, further communication calls and so on.

The other (abseiling) is all on the individual at the anchor to go through a process and little to no communication required with the person on the ground (avoiding miscommunication issues).

I know which method I prefer. 

4
 Alex Riley 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

It's from abseiling specifically.

Rethreading a lower off isn't exactly complicated and is quicker and safer than abseiling, especially if cleaning routes that are overhanging.

Post edited at 21:00
 kevin stephens 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

I wonder how many sport climbing injuries are caused by hooking a finger instead of a quickdraw into a bolt at the end of a long tenuous runout, either by injuring the finger or a failed attempt to quickly replace it with a crab? (asking for a friend)

 UKB Shark 28 Aug 2019
In reply to duncan:

>There is a mix of the two practices currently. As a direct consequence of this inconsistency there are regular serious accidents due to confusion or mis-communication as to how the leader intends to get down from their route.  We should stick with one method and it should be lowering.   

Yes.

Also unfortunately 'safe' and 'take' can sound similar.

Nice article Mick. Not knotting the rope was an omission though, as others have pointed out. Edit?

 kevin stephens 28 Aug 2019
In reply to UKB Shark:

only two calls in sport climbing; take and slack.  I made the mistake of shouting Safe at the chains on one climb only to see my trad belayer remove his belay device and walk away!

1
 Pedro50 28 Aug 2019
In reply to kevin stephens:

> only two calls in sport climbing; take and slack.  I made the mistake of shouting Safe at the chains on one climb only to see my trad belayer remove his belay device and walk away!

So were you safe?

1
 kevin stephens 28 Aug 2019
In reply to Pedro50:

More like trapped

1
 Wiley Coyote2 29 Aug 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I generally carry a couple of extra quick draws so that, in extremis, I'm almost certainly going to have the option of one on either side of my harness for optimum ease of clipping. It also means I can use the spare ones clipped together to attach myself to the anchor

Agreed. I was including clips for the anchors in the 'absolutely necessary category.

 apache 29 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

One rather important fact that was omitted was know the length of the route so you have a rope long enough to be lowered on. There are many sports cliffs where the ground slopes down along the cliff so just because you can lower off with sufficient rope at the right end of the cliff doesn't mean you'll have sufficient rope to do something similar at the left end. I've been dropped a couple of times when this happened - yes, should have had a knot at the end of the rope.

Communication before the leader starts - know what is going to happen once the leader gets to the top of the route - lower off or abseil.

Many years ago a British climber was killed at one of the cliffs at Ceuse which has a sloping base so the route lengths increased along the cliff. The party had done a few routes working right to left along the cliff and noted that the routes got longer. They had discussed about the route lengths and the options to lower or abseil off, but nothing was agreed but proceeded to start up another route. When the leader reached to the top he expected to be lowered off, the belayer expected the leader to clip into the belay and then abseil off. The ultimate cause was that neither party knew what the other was going to do and when the leader leaned back to be lowered off, he fell to his death as the belayer had taken the rope from his belay plate and walked off to get ready to lead the route.

 BruceM 29 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Thanks Mick.

That's a great idea to change the penultimate QD from the climber's side of the rope to the belayer's side when a second is top-roping a climb (Point 8). I never thought of that!  But it has always worried me when my girl gets to that point of a top-roped climb. Thanks! 

 Mick Ward 29 Aug 2019
In reply to BruceM:

You're very welcome indeed.  I probably discovered it by accident. But it's well worth doing - usually only takes a few moments. Occasionally it might be in the way of a move but, it seems to me, this is a small price to pay. Like you, otherwise it worries me.

Let's all be as safe as we can, out there!

Mick

 AlanLittle 29 Aug 2019
In reply to apache:

> Communication before the leader starts - know what is going to happen once the leader gets to the top of the route - lower off or abseil.

I was going to say that that should only really be necessary if one or more of the party is American, until you then went on to cite a British example. Still highly unusual these days though, that anybody except an American would even contemplate abbing off a sport route.

Post edited at 11:58
2
 duncan 29 Aug 2019
In reply to Tobes:

> Yes - to cleaning steep routes on abb.

Perhaps we have a different idea of what constitutes steep. A quick glance at your logbook suggests you’ve not climbed at somewhere like the Water-cum-Jolly Cornice or parts of The Promenade where cleaning from abseil would be extremely challenging. 

> No - not just a practice in the US. Many guide books (UK) recommend the practice to extend the longevity of the hard ware.

Which UK guidebooks? I've checked BMC (North Peak Limestone), CC (Portland, Swanage), Rockfax (Dorset), and Ground Up (Slate) and none make a recommendation either way. Nor would I expect them to, they are not instructional manuals.

> you make a point about safety. I’d argue that it’s a fundamental skill to be able to independently abb off (anything really). 

Strawman argument. No one is saying it’s not important to be able to abseil, they are recommending adopting a consistent approach to getting down from sport routes. 

> Again i’d like to get the opinion of those who put in the effort of putting up sport routes whether repeatedly lowering off the hardware is something that concerns them. 

Mick has answered this. Additionally, none of the bolt funds recommend abseiling rather than lowering.

1
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Nice article Mick. Not knotting the rope was an omission though, as others have pointed out. Edit?

Perhaps a deliberate omission to prompt discussion? 

Engaging in debate is better than reading if you want to remember something. 

1
 kipper12 29 Aug 2019
In reply to Gambit:

I had a very close call not knotting the end of the rope. at horseshoe  We picked up a spare rope and set off one of the two pitch routes at the far end.  As I lowered off the rope shot through the belayers hands (forgot it wasn't a 70m rope - the other team had that!).  I was using a spare draw as a spacer, and it caught briefly on the next hanger, I don't remember doing it, but I shot a hand out and caught the other side of the rope.  I got a rope burn but stopped myself, and sorted myself out. Mostly cleaning out my trousers!!

A big endorsement for knowing rope.

May I say also, be methodical while threading the lower off.  Pick and learn a method which suits.

 Mick Ward 29 Aug 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Perhaps a deliberate omission to prompt discussion? 

Nope -  I forgot!  And I forgot to mention helmets. So maybe we should have 12 things, not 10. Surely it's still not too much to ask people to remember? 

I don't know if I mentioned above but it might be an idea if ends of top-ropes at climbing walls were knotted, as a matter of course. The knots could be swapped round periodically by staff. On occasion I've not been happy with the length of dead rope left over and have knotted it before belaying, then unknotted it afterwards (to leave it as I found it).

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Either way, I think the discussion adds to the impact of the article. 

Wall ropes are a concern. Rather than knots which can be undone, a bit of splicing or whipping on the ends would fatten them sufficiently and resurrect a dying art. 

 Dark Peak Paul 29 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles: I took a scroll through and couldn't see any responses regarding SPA's. If someone else has covered this, sorry.

SPA did not cover sport climbing, nor did any other MT award specifically. However, things have now changed.

Rock Climbing Instructor (replaces SPA) includes an element of sport climbing. Rock Climbing Develoment Instructor requires quite extensive sport climbing experience and covers its instruction in detail. The renamed Mountaineering & Climbing Instructor (replaces MIA) now also has specific sport climbing prerequisites but they are currently less extensive than those of the RCDI which is arguably a more a more in depth award within its narrower remit.

In short, a SPA may never have sport climbed, a RCI will be competent to run top roping sessions on sport crags and a RCDI will certainly be competent to instruct both trad and sport on single pitch crags. If you are planning a trip abroad to take on multi-pitch routes and feel you require instruction, then you would be advised to seek out a MCI or Mountain Guide.

Post edited at 22:37
5
 Frank R. 30 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Re: knoting ropes, there was (unfortunately) a sad story of a rope being too short - the party forgot that it was cut a bit shorter due to sheath damage, and the obvious happened. Complacency kills

 James Oswald 30 Aug 2019

Great article Mick, thanks.

Agree with previous posters that knotting the bottom of the rope needs adding - a good reason to use a rope bag and to keep the bottom tied on at all times.

 jezb1 30 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

The article mentions attaching yourself to two anchors at the top.

I'd be interested in how people do this when they aren't linked with a chain?

I don't.

When threading the rope stays through the 'draws and attached to me, and I'll be attached to one bolt. Even if the bolt I'm attached to fails, I'm still on belay on the other bolt.

 Jeremy Wilson 30 Aug 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Excellent article - thank you!  One point I would add is that clipping the 3rd bolt is often a key danger point, which requires attentive belaying.  Often the leader will pull up rope and reach high to clip a bolt and if he/she falls off just before the rope goes through the karabiner, there is enough rope in the system, with stretch to hit the ground.  I always tell folk to ensure they have a good handhold for the 3rd clip - or climb level with it before clipping.  

 JLS 30 Aug 2019
In reply to jezb1:

>"I'd be interested in how people do this when they aren't linked with a chain? I don't."

That's one of those things that experience allows you to do but you wouldn't want to teach a beginner.

I too would be happy threading while just connected to one bolt at the top. I'm confident that even a bad bolt isn't really very likely to break under body weight and if it did, there are several other bolts below me that would also have to break before I hit the ground. It also helps I knowing my belayer is using a GriGri and even if they got disintrested while I was threading chances are the GriGri is still looking out for me.

In teaching a technique I think it's safer to build in a few extra measures of redundancy so that if something does go wrong a cluster-feck does not ensue.

Edit: the above is in the context of having lead the route rather than top-rope and using the threading a bite without untieing technique.

Post edited at 15:20
2
 Iamgregp 30 Aug 2019
In reply to jezb1:

> I'd be interested in how people do this when they aren't linked with a chain?

If I'm anchored to one bolt that isn't connected to the other in some way I'll normally connect the two bolts with a draw whilst rethreading

In reply to Tobes:

Here in the Front Range alone, we are getting about one serious/fatal accident every few weeks due to confusion over whether someone is abbing or lowering off. Abbing off sport routes is an American habit based on a spurious idea that lowering off wears out the anchors. This may be partially true but all the route equippers I know lower off - and reccommend that everyone does so.

The only communication needed if lowering off is "Slack" and "Lower" if you are doing it right.

Fortunately the culture is changing to the world standard - and about time too.

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:

> Fortunately the culture is changing to the world standard - and about time too.

Whatever next? SI units? 

 drconline 04 Sep 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Hey just wanted to say that I found this article extremely useful.

I understand it's not an exhaustive list (helmets!) but that's fine - it highlighted quite a few things that, to me as a beginner sport climber, were new and will certainly make me a safer climber and belayer, so job well done there.

It's also been informative to read through all these comments (yes all of them!).

A couple of points that I'm a bit confused about:

On point 8 you talk about clipping the last quickdraw below the anchors when someone is seconding a climb (i.e. on top rope).

I'm sure I'm missing something, but why would you not just leave all the quickdraws in place, tie into the other end of the rope and then top rope them up the climb (with the rope running down through all the quickdraws). Then they can remove the quickdraws on the way down rather than the way up?

Also on Point 9 you mention the use of a Maillon for retreating (yes, done that one already!) and the importance of getting it the right way round...but then not telling us which is the right way!

I assumed that you put the longer section (below the 'nut') downwards, but maybe that's wrong too!!

Thanks again!

Dave

PS. I always wear a helmet outside and always tie a knot in the rope, even inside.

Post edited at 16:18
In reply to drconline:

On steep routes it can be very difficult for the second to retrieve all the draws on the way down. And if I understand you correctly - difficult or dangerous to follow steep routes on the non-clipped end of the rope.

Post edited at 16:17
 kevin stephens 04 Sep 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

This relates to the top-roper stripping the quickdraws when he/she climbs before rethreading the belay to remove the two lower off quickdraws.  Unless the last QD is changed over there is a risk of a ground fall if a mistake is made or another problem occurs when doing the re-threading, in which case the last QD provides a safety backup.  Once the rope has been threaded through the lower off staples/ring etc it is then safe to remove the last quickdraw before lowering off and pulling the rope

Post edited at 16:17
 drconline 04 Sep 2019
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:

OK that makes sense.

Ta

 Iamgregp 04 Sep 2019
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:

Also if the route has any isn't straight up and down and has any traversing in it coming off whilst tied into the other (non clipped) end can result in a huge swing...

I unfortunately have experienced this, and still have the blood in my helmet to show for it.  Not my blood.  Long story.

 Mick Ward 05 Sep 2019
In reply to drconline:

Hi Dave,

Apologies for the delay in replying. Glad you found the article useful. I'd stress that I'm not any kind of technical expert. Ironically I have very poor spatial awareness and find practical stuff difficult. So, for me,  technical stuff in climbing (e.g. placing protection, single rope technique, bolting) has to be absolutely ingrained - and it is.

Although, like you, I must have used the odd maillon, here and there, it was only relatively recently that (to my horror!) I realised the 'bad way' of having your rope through. I mentioned this to other people and, although they all agreed that there was a 'bad way', responses seemed to vary from, "Doesn't everyone know this?" to, "Well, does it really matter that much?" I think it does!!!

In my view, there's a 'bad way' and three other ways. Wiser people than I can argue the 'best practice' merits of the three other ways. (One of them I would personally avoid.) Throughout the article, I wanted to stay away from 'best practice', a) because I'm not the best person to be specifying it and b) because, in my view, very often in climbing, 'best practice' is what works best in a given situation. In the article, I simply wanted to identify what I consider poor or dangerous practice, so we try to steer away from that.

With maillons, don't take a risk!  It's no good knowing the 'bad way' and then (maybe in a stress situation on the crag) not being sure. The best thing is to run a rope through a maillon from different directions. You'll quickly see how, one way, the rope might unlock it. But unless you're absolutely sure you're avoiding this scenario when you're actually using a maillon to retreat - don't use one. Use a screwgate or a krab or a quickdraw. Use what seems safest for you, in that situation.

Why would we use maillons for bailing?  To save money. There's nothing wrong with maillons. Used correctly, they do the job well. But what's your life worth - the cost of a maillon, a screwgate, a krab, a quickdraw?  The slightest doubt - err on the side of caution!

Sorry to bang on about this.

Mick (crag granny)

 kevin stephens 05 Sep 2019
In reply to Mick Ward:

A problem with using maillons for baling is that they can spoil a clip for the next person if it makes it harder to clip a QD into the bolt.

Most of us older climbers don't use maillons because we have a whole cupboard full of older sacrificial Krabs that we can leave behind when failing on a route.

The only problem is that as we get older the rate of attrition on the sacrificial stash accelerates.

 andyb211 31 Oct 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

Best practice Al

1
 andyb211 31 Oct 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Cracking article Mick and a good reminder

 AlanLittle 31 Oct 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Totally beside the point nitpick, but ...

I very much doubt that Adam Ondra started climbing indoors. He grew up in a climbing family, in a city with crags on its doorstep and - I'd be willing to bet - not much by way of a climbing wall scene 20 years ago.

Post edited at 16:14
 mcawle 31 Oct 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Nice article, thanks!

I know helmets have been mentioned a bit in the thread.

I'm reading the 2019 edition of Accidents in North American Climbing published by the American Alpine Club and a lot of climbers in the cases there seem to obtain head injuries through falls. E.g. decking, inverting, or hitting something on the way down. Which could happen on any kind of route really. Edit: and a number of cases in there where climbers have been wearing helmets and either avoided or mitigated worse head injury after a fall.

I realise that the angle of the route etc. will make the risk of this more or less likely, but personally I don't consider a helmet a variable for risk assessment anymore - I just always wear one regardless of whether I'm leading, seconding, or belaying, and I'd want the same for my climbing partner. Especially as helmets get lighter and more comfortable.

Just my two pence - thanks again for the article!

Post edited at 18:39
 TheGeneralist 31 Oct 2019
In reply to various:

I'm quite concerned that people think the first bolt  will help if the second bolt fails......

Do you realise how close together the bolts would need to be for this to be remotely likely?

 AlanLittle 31 Oct 2019
In reply to kevin stephens:

> we have a whole cupboard full of older sacrificial Krabs that we can leave behind when failing on a route.

> The only problem is that as we get older the rate of attrition on the sacrificial stash accelerates.

Well yes, that plus I'm running out of Kong Bonatti's and there's no way I'm sacrificing any Clog 22's - they're going to be valuable heirlooms one day.


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