UKC

2 days ago I bought La Sportiva tarantulas
But on my first climb with the shoes, my right toes were hurting a lot. Also when walking around, I can't walk normally, kind of painful when walking.
I Left the shoes on for around an hour and half session without taking them off. After the session my toes were red and hurting. Pain went away after 30mins or so.

Is that normal? too tight?
I bought size : 41.5 EU and in normal walking shoes I wear 42.5-43.0 EU

Shoes should be snug. Can be tight verging on uncomfortable.

Shouldn't hurt, certainly not for 30 mins afterwards.

Sizing sounds about right, Tarantulas do come up big for the size. Perhaps the shoe is the wrong shape for your foot.

They do stretch with use. Try cutting your toenails really short too

Check they are both the same size. Sometimes when people are trying on multiple pairs the wrong shoe ends up in the wrong box.  You definitely shouldn't have pain...

After making sure  the shoes are right size etc..including all suggested above, you can try to wear them only when actually on the climb so you have them on for shorter period of time rather that one hrs or more, until they eventually stretch and you can start wearing them for gradually increasing  periods of time

Stiffer shoes (like most beginners shows) take a while to break in.  I used to find I'd need 4 to 6 bouldering sessions before they became comfortable.

It's a difficult thing to get right but the goal is for them to fit snugly but without much discomfort - after you've broken them in.  If you go too comfy from new, they can become a little sloppy quite quickly.  You loose power and precision from the shoe if that happens.

But don't have to be

Agree

Sizing sounds like bollocks, every pair of climbing shoes I've every bought have been at least a size bigger than my normal day shoes.

They will stretch, but it takes time and well fitting shoes don't need to stretch, so they wont. Best advice if you want to climb more, buy comfortable shoes, you'll get a lot more pleasant miles out of them and the pain won't put you off climbing.

All my advice is doubly true if you've only just started climbing and are climbing under 6c, there really is no point having uncomfortable shoes at this level, because they don't help. As for above I don't really know, but I suspect a well fitting shoe is good there too.

Take them off when you're not actually on a route.  I don't put mine on till I'm warmed up, and then putting them on is the last thing i do before starting a route, and I take them off as soon as I get down.  I never walk anywhere in them. Should help with the pain.

They'll stretch too, should be fine.

My ten pence worth.

Especially for a beginner, where high tech shoes are not really needed. 

 Shoes should be close fitting but not hurting the feet. Techy ones as you progress.

I'm the owner of a painful bunion due to a lifetime of cramming feet into the wrong sized shoes. Be warned. 

you must be the only person in the world who sizes climbing shoes like that... its the norm for at least 1 shoe size smaller, especially for bigginer climbing shoes which tend to be sized bigger anyway.

while a begginer has no need for a super agresive downturned shoe, you still need a snug precise shoe reguardless of if your climbing 4a or 9a. a newbie is never going to learn good footwork and proper technique if they are climbing in a pair of slippers! sure once you have learned good technique you can climb easy routes (relative to whatever your 'easy' is) in slippers, flipflops, big boots, bare foot or whatever. climbing shoes are made for climbing, not walking, if they are comfortable to walk around the wall/crag in then they are too big (unless they are your designated all day comfy trad shoe...) .

Are you suggesting I'd be climbing 7b and c if I wore more crippling shoes?

And what's wrong with these?

A newbie isn't going to learn to climb at all if their feet are painful and an hour after starting they have to go home. We were at the wall for 7 hours yesterday, are you telling me I'd have been better off having f*cked feet after 2 hours?

I wasn't suggesting wearing flip flops or anything baggy and loose, you seem to have already made you mind up that my climbing shoes are too big for me and my feet are rattling around in them, they're not, they are simply a good fit, that aren't painful.

Far from allowing footwork to be more precise, aching numb feet and toes, destroy any "feel" from the rock, so you're gaining nothing.

Other than in my first couple of years climbing when I wore thick socks with my rock boots, I have always worn my rock shoes at least a couple of sizes smaller than my street shoes.

So that would be 44 years of wearing the wrong size.

Did the OP not say he was a beginner?

And if that works for you then that's great.

What I was trying to suggest to the OP was, having comfortable shoes is more important than uncomfortable shoes.

Your shoes might be great for the sort of climbing you do, it doesn't mean they're great for everyone.

I never said they were the wrong size either, I simply stated what works for me.

Again, are you suggesting that by wedging my foot into a shoes two sizes smaller than I'm wearing now would get me another couple of grades?

Even if they did, is a painful pair of feet worth it?

The reality is that yes, in order to climb harder grades you'd very likely need to size your shoes smaller and therefore more precisely. There comes a point where foothold size is such that precise, tight shoes are required or it just doesn't work too well. By way of example, I was recently projecting Migranya (8b) in Siurana and first had a nightmare of a time in a pair of Instincts, feet slipping off everywhere. I swapped to a pair of Skwamas and realised I'd sized the Instincts a little too large - swapping shoes made a world of difference to the difficulty of the moves (although still not enough to redpoint it, in the end). The Instincts have now been relegated to gym shoes where they can still climb hard because footholds are far bigger indoors even on really hard stuff. 

However I am of the opinion that beginner shoes don't need to be that tight, just reasonably snug. @OP your shoes will stretch and get more comfy with time - and your feet will also desensitize a little. Seeing as you've used them now you can't return them anyway, so if necessary try wearing a very thin pair of socks until the shoes have stretched a little. 

I must say that even in my performance bouldering shoes I can leave them on for 1.5-2hrs as they fit very well to the shape of my foot, so Krikoman does have a point here. My alpine shoes can stay on for 18hrs but still climb 7b with reasonable efficacy. 

You appear to rather touchy about people suggesting that smaller shoes might improve your climbing performance.

I would have thought not spending 7 hours down the wall might be a bigger help to improve.

I agree with everything you've written, but it's not my feet I have a problem with it's my arm and finger strength, I very rarely have trouble with my feet slipping off.

While you, or anyone else pushing their grades, may feel it necessary to wear aggressive shoes, I'm not that bothered I climb because I enjoy it, I don't need to push my grades and I don't need to train. While I'm pretty certain you enjoy it too, I think we might have different views on what we want to get out of climbing. Mine's for fun and to be social, so I climb what I can in the boots I'm wearing, I don't use chalk for the same reason, if I used chalk and wore tighter boots and did some training I might well be climbing 2 or 3 grades higher, but I really don't see the point. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean I don't push myself, the 7a at the weekend kicked my arse, but failing it didn't mean I'm likely to go and by shoes I couldn't wear all day.

Each to their own obviously.

I just think this shoe sizing so they cramping your feet is the single most advice people are told and follow when they first start and it makes climbing a chore rather than a pleasure.

I fell into it with my first pair of boot,

"what size shoe are you?"

"a ten"

"Well you need a size 9 then"

Cue agony, maximum shoe wearing time of about 1 hour. So I either cut sort my climbing time, or continued on in agony. Then along came Five.Ten Ascents (size 11), like slippers, foam heal and everything but not sloppy, my big toe was flat and not contorted into some weird position. My climbing improved massively, I enjoyed it more, and so did more of it.

Not touchy at all, simply asking the question.

How long is optimal?

I spend 7 hours there because I like it, I'm usually with a group of mates and enjoy their company too. Don't you like climbing?

I do but over 7 hours I suspect you spend more time not climbing.

As for optimal it would depend on what you are trying to achieve or train.

I’d say they’re too tight and I would either return or if you can’t, buy some of these (I’ve done the same on a pair of instinct lace and probably got half a size back)

ty everyone for answers.

Well I just noticed that some everyday shoes I have are 42-43 EU.
But some other shoes I have are 44 EU actually.

Based on you guys advice, should I try to exchange it to the store for like half a size higher? so instead of 41.5 try to get a 42 pair?

Once again, you assume something without any evidence; out of 7 hours I don't do much climbing, my shoes are slack and floppy, and I'm touchy about people giving me advice, I've told you you were wearing the wrong size shoes.

How long do I climb for out of my 7 hours? Or are you suggesting while I'm belaying, that's not climbing? Regardless of how much climbing I actually do, my shoes go on at the start and come off when we finish.

Enjoyment?

Belaying is belaying. It might be being part of a climbing partnership but it’s not the act of climbing.

So there is no enjoyment from training or striving to achieve something.

I'm with you pal, "no pain; good"

Dear Kirkoman

If you have bought la Sportiva shoes a full size larger than your foot size and managed to climb in them then you have my respect. 

I must say, I agree with krikoman, I now climb in comfortable shoes which are about the same size as my normal shoe size. Modern shoes are so much better than the old EBs or Fires that we had to wear 1 or 2 sizes too small. 

I follow your train of thought. I used to have some really tight shoes for a year or so (could only wear them for a couple of hours and had to take them off between climbs), bought some new, equally technical but looser/better fitting. Didn't make a jot of difference to my climbing, but it did make the experience a whole lot more enjoyable again.

I fit tarantulas (among many other shoes) for a living and they, shy of solutions and iatis, come up as some of the biggest for their size I handle. 

I normally start people off in street shoe and gradually go down to show them how a precise shoe should fit (and not cripple them in a tiny ill fitting shoe). With evolv, start a size up and tarantulas I start 1.5 down and they're still bigger... Either I have squiffy eyes or someone is telling porkies.

i have no idea what you would be climbing as i have no idea what you are climbing now... and i dont care, its not a pissing contest. but you would unequivocally be climbing better with a more precise shoe. 

nothing, but the OP is talking about down the wall, not 15 pitch mountain granite

if your spending an hour on 1 route at the wall then your doing something VERY wrong! take them off when you get down, simples.

once worn in, your feet dont ache when wearing a well fitted shoe if taking it off in between routes

Yes. My own personal favourite shoes fit well with just some pressure around the inside tip on my big toe so inside edging is precise. They also are not too baggy on the outside edge. Many modern shoes seem intended to “knuckle” your big toe as they have a lot of room over the toe. A comfier shoe will fit better over the top of the toes with toes out straight. I found Scarpa Maestro good for this 

I use Sportivas of various models - nearly always 3 Euro sizes below street size (43 from 46) - they are a very over-sized brand.  For comparisson, I wear 5.10 closer to true size - say 0.5 smaller for Dragons, 1 size smaller for Anasazi VS.  If the OP is finding even moderately undersized Sportiva's painful I suspect he either has very sensitive feet or they are just fundamentally non-Sportiva shaped and should try a different manufacturer.

In reply to krikoman:

You keep on your climbing shoes for 7 hours?! Crikey, the most impartant part of my indoor route climbing kit is a pair of warm slippers (of the non-climbing type) to wear whilst belaying.  Aside from comfort, I wouldn't want to wear climbing shoes that long as they could get unpleasantly baggy and soft before the rubber wore out.

You do make me laugh,  I'm sure you tell people I climbed for 3.5 hours and belayed 3.5 hours, oh1 and we had a 10 minute cup of tea.

I didn't say there wasn't, I said there were different reasons people climb, as the OP is a beginer it might, just might, be useful to enjoy a pain free experience, before they move on to being told "you have to have these tiny shoes, that you can only wear for an hour or so, if you want to climb hard"

The thing is I don't care either, that was exactly my point! I'd rather be climbing what I climb now than be in discomfort, I can't be arsed to take my shoes off after every route, so I can climb longer, so define "better" because better for me is spending more time doing what I enjoy.

It's not a pissing contest in how small a shoe you can fit you feet into either, or how uncomfortable you can make a trip to the wall / crag.

So what difference does it make?

Hardly simples at all, what's the point? you spend loads of time put on and taking off your shoes then, when you could be climbing, that simples!!

See above

Lined climbing shoes, don't need wearing in, as they don't stretch.

I have a pair of Mad Rock Frenzy's which are 10 years old, they've been resoled 3 times and I climb just as well in those as my brand new shoes. They're no baggier than when I bought them.

Like I said, wear WTF you want, that's up to you. The OP asked as a beginner, what people would recommend, as a beginner, and for me a long time climber, I recommended comfortable shoes. It's up the them whether they take that advice or not.

You and the rest of the people telling me I'll have baggy shoes and imprecise feet, doesn't mean it's true, it's not my feet I have trouble with.

I have a couple of pair 10 years old, not baggy not worn out, re-soled a number of times. I do always tend to buy lined shoes though, so this help keep their original size and shape. And my feet don't stink either, so they smell almost new.

Obviously correct sizing is important, but dismissing fit is ignorant. 

Any shoe will fit on your foot if you size it larger than your normal shoe size, but it won’t make it fit well. A well fitted climbing shoe should fit the shape of your foot snugly and be appropriate for what you want to climb but this doesn’t have to be at the expense comfort or getting the best out of the shoe by over or under sizing.

As mentioned above, if you had ever worn la sportiva shoes there is no way you would be making the points you are making. 

While everyone else is arguing over rubbish I'll answer your question. 

If you can take them back then back then do so but don't change them for half a size bigger, change them for a shoe that fits your foot. Numbers are only a basic starting point. My La sportiva started out a size smaller, stretched more and fit worse than my Scarpa.

The points I am making, or at least trying to are near enough what you've written above. Except that to for my shoes to fit the shape of my foot snugly, without pain, it to buy them a size bigger, that's been for at least four different manufacturer. I'm not sure I've tried La Sportiva or not, I've tried most makes on since I started climbing. That doesn't change the fact telling people to buy shoes too small is bollocks.

People seem to be telling me, my feet aren't precise enough, or that I'm shouldn't be wearing my shoes all day, or that my shoes are baggy and sloppy fitting, all of this without knowing FA about me, my feet of my shoes, or how well or not I climb, or my reasons for climbing.

I don't use chalk for the same reasons, it might well get me another grade or two, but who cares? I don't like chalk so I don't use it, that's my choice, not for someone else to tell me, "well your hands will slip off and you'll be reducing you grade". As I was told earlier, "it's not a pissing contest", but it doesn't seem to be enough, that I would chose comfortable shoes I can wear all day, without having to remove them every ten minutes, I'm doing something wrong then!

Why would anyone buy on size? It's just a number, and given the variability in different manufacturers, or even the same manufacturers for that matter, what has a number got to do with anything. Everyone should be buying on fit, not what you're told they are.

I'd still argue a beginner would get more out of a pair of comfy, even a slightly baggy shoe, than something that's painful to wear, which is where the OP seems to be coming from. Later on when they've built up strength and technique they can get a tighter more technical shoe, probably more painful shoe, if they think that's necessary.

^^^ This.

But also be aware that lined shoes might not stretch at all, only mould better around your foot, whereas unlined will most probably do both.

Now you are making assumptions in that I would tell people I was belaying. I don’t think I’ve used a rope for about 15 years. I thought it was actually the last century but the I remembered I used to belay my daughter.

Aint nothing wrong with you choosing to wear your shoes all day for seven hours and not using any chalk, those are your choices...  However you must admit, both of those things are a bit unusual?!    

I'm not dissing your choices, but is someone who wears their shoes all day for seven hours really the most ideal person to be offering advice about shoe fit to beginners?  It's just the other end of the scale from all the people who wear their shoes way, way too tight, who also probably aren't the best?

Like I said, I'm not having a go at you, I'm just pointing out that your at quite an extreme end of the scale when it comes to how you wear your shoes!

you can do whatever you like and get out of life whatever you want, we all play our own games. but the advice you are trying to give to a beginner is simply wrong and should be pointed out as such. the fact that you are the only person arguing your point on this thread is evidence enough of that.

I have had a problem with one foot being a bit longer then the other. I solved it by stretching  the boot(s) by fashioning a stick with about an inch radius and with a rounded end that go's into the front of the boot. I cut the sticks a bit longer than the boot and force it in to stretch  it . After a month the shoe is permanently stretched. Try it after a fortnight or so and keep stretching it as need be. 

At the heel end of the boot there is a rubber band that go's around the back of the heel. Its designed to force the toes forward to the front of the boot. I place the stick so it is stretching this band, so reducing the pressure on the toes.

UKC did a good article on this subject. 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/ten_top_tips_for_buying_rock_sho...

Like Krikoman my advice for a first pair is snug but fairly comfortable,  a pair that can be used for hours. I'd also strongly advise wearing thin socks, as it will help the fit and stop the shoes stinking and building up nasty slime. If the shoes eventually stretch, just wear thicker socks. Those denying my advice need to explain how Ron Fawcett had such good footwork in his prime, in much less technical shoes and with socks. If shoes hurt after minutes I think that will damage the ability to develop good footwork more than overloose shoes.

Like Brian I've also got bunions partly from bad advice and overtight climbing shoes when I started. 

There's at least one more- me!

I've done the whole uncomfortably tight shoe thing & now think that if your shoes are really hurting they're wrong!

I agree with all you said here (apart from the bit about wearing socks) but this is a daft argument.  Aye Ron Fawcett's footwork was great with much less tech shoes, but that's not to say it wouldn't have been even better with modern shoes...

If that were the case we might as well go and tell all footballers they might as well wear heavy 1960's leather boots because look how good George Best's ball control was!

By being very talented and training a lot?  In the absence of incredible aptitude, I'll just have to wear snug rock shoes without socks (and since I'm not an amphibian, with no fear of "slime" build-up!).

Also if you bumped into Ron at the plantation or the works a few years ago.  You would have seen him wearing the latest shoes and no socks, not Handwags with big red socks.

Sportivas have consistently sized 1-1.5 sizes smaller than my regular shoe size, in both flat (Mythos) and more technical (Miura lace-ups) shoes. I can't remember exactly what size my Maestros are, but I'm reasonably certain that they are a size smaller than my regular shoe size. None of them are overly small or crippling, and in fact my latest pair of Mythos have once again stretched to be baggier than ideal despite sizing down half a size from the last pair.

Are you sure?

I'm not sure they are, as a club we quite often have a group of us that climb for that long on Sundays at a local wall. Not everyone keeps their shoes on ALL the time, but most of us do.

Why not how long is optimal for climbing? I really don't know. I climb for social reasons as much as anything else, if we're outside in the summer then we're likely to climb from about 12 till 7 ish. The wall is just an extension of that. We're not the only people who'll climb for that long at the wall either, there are people who are there before us, who we see most of the day. I really don't think this is out of the ordinary. I've always climbed this way, Sundays are a special treat, we usually climb until we can't climb any longer, gradually dropping grades to cope with tiredness. It's our idea of fun. During the week we can only get around 2-3 hours because the wall closes, otherwise we'd be longer then too.

the advice I gave was to allow a beginner to, chose for themselves how long they climb, not have it enforced on them by being in pain.

It's got nowt do do with having sloppy shoes, or precise footwork ( you're footwork is either precise or it isn't, a sloppy shoe won't make the placing of your foot any better it'll only help it stay in place if your shoes isn't sloppy), it was about having snug, comfortable shoes.

As a beginner, I always wanted to climb for longer, but my body wouldn't let me, it wasn't my shoes that was the limiting factor.

Yikes!! have we finally agreed on something?

I'm going for a lay down.

Slime is what I had, maybe you are lucky. I was mad keen then in the 90s.. climbing 4 days a week minimum (indoors and out). I changed from nasty strinking slimy shoes (the slime was probably a disgusting mix of sweat, skin, chalk dust and mud) to clean shoes and occasionally dirty socks (that can more easily be washed) and my footwork climbing ability if anything improved a bit. Modern technical shoes obviously suit experienced expert climbers but I can pretty much guarantee beginners, if they ignore all the bullshit,  will be much better off starting with snug all round shoes with thin socks.

It's not just comfort, pain means potential permanent damage to climber's feet.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-shoes-is-pain-insane

https://expertclimbers.com/how-tight-should-climbing-shoes-be/

https://www.podiatrytoday.com/blogged/what-you-should-know-about-rock-climb...

https://eveningsends.com/climbing-shoes-tight/

https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/base-camp/are-your-climbing-shoes-too-tight/

I've seen people who do that at my local wall but it's certainly the exception rather than the rule.  That there's a group of you that all do the same is expected, people have a tendency to conform to the norms of a group they are part of (for more on this refer to Asch et al 1951).  

Yeah same, I'll stay and climb for as long as I can and socialise with friends to.  I just take my shoes off when I'm not actually climbing

I've never had to cut short my climbing because of pain in from my shoes, I don't wear them that tight.  And I take them off.  I've never suggested to a begginer climber that the ought to be in pain.  After all I never am!

Yeah same.

The thing is, climbing shoes are designed for climbing in, they concentrate all of the weight and strength into the areas and edges where it's needed.  Regardless of how tight you do or don't wear them or how aggressive they are or aren't, this is what they're designed for.

Other shoes are designed for walking in, they spread your weight and strength over a greater area of you foot making them more comfortable for walking.  

Why you would walk around in climbing shoes, when you took a pair of normal shoes with you to the wall I can't understand.  They're just not as comfortable to walk in as normal shoes are, they concentrate the weight into weird areas, they aren't as safe for walking around in as normal shoes and you're only going to do yourself harm by wearing them all day, not to mention needlessly wearing out the rubber on what are probably the more expensive of the two pairs of shoes you have with you.

I wear my sloppy street shoes around the wall and climb in my climbing shoes, doing the activity each shoe is designed for.

Hell, sometimes for shits and giggles I climb the odd route in my street shoes. Good for warm up and makes you really concentrate on foot placement! 

EDIT: Grammar

How much walking do you do at the wall? and how big is your wall? We tend not to walk around much, simply move from one line to the next.

Anyhow, I think we're done here, cheers.

Why would anyone take advice from someone who thinks it’s ok to climb on wet gritstone.

The more 7 hour days you spend at the wall has got to better for the rock and rock climbing.

You ask me a question, then say we're done here...

Strikes me that you're a bit of a prick mate.

Now we're done.

My goodness people, let's just hope that the OP doesn't assume all this bickering is typically of the climbing population, they'll have been put off before their shoes stretch.

I agree that you shouldn't suffer for tight shoes but loose sloppy shoes will hold people back and suggesting that anyone should pick their climbing shoes based in any way on their street shoes is rubbish.

Everyone knows that different shoe manufacturers (both climbing and street) have completely different sizing charts and are therefore incomparable.

For example I have some La sportiva Mythos that are baggy in a size 40, yet I have 5.10 pinks in a size 42 and I have street shoes ranging from 42 to 43.5.

I wonder if ballet dancers have the same arguments about sizing their slippers?

If it's not clear from previous answers, don't do this. It benefits neither your feet nor the shoes.

Concerning Sportiva sizing, my biggest foot's about 44, and my Tarantulas are 41.5. Obviously there's a fair amount of variation depending on one's foot shape, but it's pretty standard for regular Sportiva wearers to plump for a box size 1.5/2 sizes smaller than their measured foot size. And often more for the hardcore

I find it best to have a comfortable pair of shoes that I want to climb in, rather than dread putting them on or wearing them for long periods. I just wanted to climb as much as possible and enjoy it.  

FYI: I started with some ClimbX cheapies from GO Outdoors.

Given the grades that people advocating baggy shoes climb. You could probably get away with doing these routes in your street shoes.

I thought it wasn't a pissing contest? Still you must be great in your painful shoes, well done, that'll learn us.

I see your still determined that our shoes are baggy and not simply comfortable and snug, you must be great.

I thought that's what I said!

I'm a bit of a prick!!!! ha ha. Which bit? Can I be the bell end, that's my favourite.

You're the one telling me your worried about wearing you shoes out walking at a climbing wall.

By done I meant, having a sensible discussion. You've invented all sorts of stuff to try and justify why my comfortable shoes are a bad idea, wearing them out by walking in them though

I’m great enough to know that you don’t climb on wet Gritstone, unlike your good self. Maybe during your 7 hours down the wall you could discuss this and why it’s a bad thing to do.