UKC

Carrying over from the "good climbing grade thread" it was suggested that not many people are interested in "hard grit" anymore.

I may be off the mark a little but it seems to me like hard grit has lost it's cool and the kudos that it had in the 90's/2000's with more people preferring to push themselves on longer stamina-pieces now. I think some of this may be down to the rise in indoor walls and training facilities where you can get "fit" off the rock. 

So is hard grit still cool and if not will it be cool again? 

Interesting question... 

Routes generally seem slightly out of vogue at present, but I'd say that the Grit bouldering scene is probably as healthy as ever when you look at the depth and breadth of what's happening away from the headlines. 

I'm not a Peak local but my impression is that in the mid to high Font7s, there's now dozens if not hundreds of climbers quietly working and ticking high quality stuff. It's not cutting edge or dangerous, but there's a large number of climbers still psyched about doing what by any objective standard are 'hard moves' (i.e. English 6b/6c) on Grit.

As for harder routes getting visibly more popular, I'm not certain if or when that might happen...

I was at the Plantation boulders yesterday, it was brilliant conditions although the faces facing the breeze were dry and crisp - lots of wetness in other directions. I went with two of my kids, to meet some friends who were there - some with their kids. But there were a lot of other people out bouldering. I was just looking at all the mats lying about, thinking I can see why shops can afford to stock a wide range of mats! Having said that there were teams up on the edge doing VSs, some guys soloed a bunch of not super easy routes in what I reckon can't have been wonderful conditions.

Only this week Masters Edge was flashed. Look at the top ascents this week alone and you’ll see plenty of grit E6 and 7s done in generally good style. People don’t tend to climb grit E8/9+ every day, but it’s definitely happening, and it just doesn’t get reported on neither in traditional climbing news nor in UKC logbooks. 

Grit as a medium also doesn’t tend to lend itself to the bigger sport grades, even aside from the routes that are now really highballs (Promise as an example), grit tends to become incredibly cruxy/boulder specific and conditions dependent rather than simply “sport hard” (ie f8c and above etc) so perhaps we’re at somewhat of a ceiling with respect to new routes and and existing “LGPs” getting done. Pete Whittaker has obviously made some headway and I’m sure Jim Pope and others have the mental powers and ability.

Masters Edge is climbed in varying forms of fancy dress these days  by Tom and Pete.  If hard trad was in fashion, as it was when I started, the massive rise in bouldering and sport talent should have meant E8 and above would have been very common in the good week we have just had. So of course it is out of fashion, Jim and Pete and ther pals are the exception, not a rule. 

Things are not always conditions dependant. I was climbing with people onsighting the odd summer grit E6 in the mid 90s when E7 onsight was the limit: climbers who were never mentioned in any media reports, let alone media heros.

Like many things including Tattoos, Flares, Mullets and Beards you will find Grit will move from popular to the bastion of the Ron Hill wearing Geography teacher. Its all a bit Lion King Circle of Life.

Gritstone climbing thrives under a centre-left government.

Brown and Whillans: Attlee 1945 - 1951

Allen and Bancroft: Wilson - Callahan 1974 - 1979

"Hard Grit": Blair 1997 - 2007

A sport climbing boom requires a Tory government

Moffatt and Moon: Thatcher 1979 - 1990

...and now.
 

I'm sure you'll be voting for a Gritstone revival on Thursday!

My theory is that with cheap travel any talented climber will spend the winter in Spain rather than freezing his/her bit on a 6meter piece of rock in the winter drizzle. Also, the appetite for danger is not the same as before. There are certainly far stronger climbers now, but they not necessarily better. I remember Charlie telling me that when he did harder faster wasn’t even going that strong but had been climbing on grit a fair bit so had good technique. I guess in this age of instagrades young guns, with the exception of Jim and Buster, just want instant reward and not risking much. 

I was at planation. A significant proportion of the boulders were soaked. Some goon had plastered every hold of zippys with chalk and it still got wet when you pulled on it. They got their tick though I think

yeah, I see I made a major typo in my first post, although perhaps that was obvious from what follows. I meant to say "it wasn't brilliant conditions", not "it was..."! Considering that the bits of boulder facing south-ish were into the breeze and dry, I did think it was odd some groups were trying routes on the northern ends of some boulders which looked pretty wet.

I climb with a geography teacher, but I don't think he's got Ron Hills, at least not for climbing in anyways. I know a number of geography teachers who are quite hipster. So you're stereotype might be out of date! They do all seem to have rab jackets though, although it seems most of the middle class population of Sheffield have rab jackets...

That is really not cool

You're making the mistake of assuming that because you're not hearing about it on social media (or even UKC) it's not happening.

Very good

I'm pretty sure Big Ron won't enjoy being lumped in as a Tory with all his hard grit ascents under Thatcher!

Is it not that tweed and beards have become quite hipster, and the geography teachers have been carried along with it?

It's still hot, maybe too hot for the snowflakes?  I give much more credit to anyone on-sighting grit E5 than practising on top-rope anything harder!  Hard grit is the epitome of good 'ol British personality.  Limey sport routes are for wall bred yuppies in my eyes.  On-sight E5 is easily equivalent to sport 8a.  I have an old French guide to Mouries that gives 2 grades - one for on-sight and one for "pull through" (or Tire Clou).  The difference between on-sighting and working is about a full French grade (7a = 6a). This should be applied to hard grit too.  On-sighting a hard grit E5 is the same as headpointing an E7 (no mats allowed - don't get me started on bouncy castles and a group of outstretched teddy bears below).  Grades are for the on-sight without mats, chalked holds or your mate giving directions.  People on UKC generally (I'm not keen on having an protracted petty argument here) seem to forget this nowadays!

All good fun, but not sure it's even remotely true!

Not really. If E10 on grit were done a decade ago, surely if there was E11 and E12's, which would be the natural progression, done by now then we would have heard off. Repeating E7's and E8's is not really we are talking about here are we? 

We weren't talking about grades at all. What you said was:-

I don't know much about Buster but I've read bits and pieces about Jim Pope and loved his recent JCPC interview. They're getting out and doing really impressive things, but they're not the only ones doing so - and they're not climbing E10s, 11s and 12s either.

The idea of the Winter 'grit season' always strikes me as a somewhat phoney recent invention. Back in the day, plenty of hard stuff got climbed all throughout the year, didn't it?

'Back in the day', hard stuff was a lot less hard, and therefore less genuinely conditions-dependant than it is now. It's no surprise that the advent of the Hard Grit era coincided with a general preference for climbing dangerous grit routes in cold conditions. Simple self preservation.

No question that grit is conditions-dependent. But plenty of pretty hard stuff went up throughout the year, so far as I can recall. It might be interesting to plot out some significant first ascents, against their month.

Well ok yes, i muddled the paragraph. 

To the OP, i think it might appear that grit has lost its “cool” status because:

1: seems there’s less apperite for danger and more for instant reward

2: there seems to be a lack of cutting edge hard ascent. I.e. Grit E11

I hope this makes more clear

I must say having done a few hardish grit routes and having tried a few harder ones, the conditions make a huge difference. 

I did Science Friction (E6 6a) and Spock's Missing (E5 6c) in the heat of summer and they felt tricky but reasonable enough. They weren't marginal enough that I thought temps made a big difference (Spock's Missing is safe, but Science Friction is a deck from the top 3rd).

In comparison I tried Beau Geste (E7 6c) in similar conditions and couldn't touch it. Later tried again in the cold and the move off the broken pebble felt far far easier (although in the end I didn't have it in me at that point in my climbing) 

 A note on the danger. I tried S Groove (E7 6c) in reasonable conditions (I think November) and did it it on toprope quite easily. I was there with Neil Furniss who later went back and did the solo. 

I never went back. I ummed and ahhd because it would have been a big new grade for me, but ultimately couldn't justify it to myself. It felt 'ok'. It didn't feel bomber, and that's what I always need to justify a bold route to myself. Absolute solidity on every move. I should be able to toprope it 3 times in a row without falling before getting on the lead. At about 9m on S Groove, there is a point where you have to kick your left foot very high into a shallow pocket and slap to a sloping arete. Over bolts this move would be steady, but with a 9m drop to a dodgy landing it had me wondering. 

I suspect this is the reason many people who are very capable don't approach hard grit routes. The risk is not worth the reward. 

It wasn't long after this that I moved to Germany and got more focused on sport because that's what the local area offers. I quickly realised just how weak I was and how close to the limit some of those bold grit and slate routes had actually been. Still makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. 

EDIT: Just remembered something even more ridiculous. I was at Froggat in the middle of August and decided impulsively this was the day to do Hairless Heart. Pulled on and fully committed. The crux of Hairless Heart is only 5c but it's on a small crimp and some smears. I was greasing out on the crimp and knew I would slip off soon so just locked it off and lunged for the break above. Thankfully it was good. My now-partner who was out climbing with me for the first time was not impressed in the slightest :')

If grit isn't conditions dependent, then why should E8 and above have been so common last week?

I agree you can climb the odd grit E6 in summer (especially moorland), but as you say, exceptions don't prove the rule.

It still happens, but as John Arran said. 'Back in the day', hard stuff was a lot less hard, and therefore less genuinely conditions-dependant than it is now. 

By my count, I think 50% of the routes on the Hard Grit list (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=105) have now been flashed, many in the last few years. It isn't just Jim and his pals (although Jim is steadily ticking through everything).

Aside from what I already said RE grit not being "sport hard". Obviously there's a big difference between climbing Masters Edge for the 20th time and flashing it for the very first. I think it's had 2 flashes in the last couple of weeks (along with other ascents).

Careless Torque been done last week too (E6 or 8A - either way it's hard grit climbing). Power of the Darkside (E8) twice this week. Grit E7 logged by Mia Stacey (E7 was the hardest grit grade climbed by a female until 2004), on a route climbed perhaps 4 times in 2 days. 

The season is only just warming up (or cooling down.)

Ascents of the above (by people who aren't media heroes or heroines), or generally in the style, would not have been common until recently, and now they are. 

By hard grit not being in fashion, do you just mean head-pointing dangerous grit with a big E number not being in fashion?

Perhaps your next grit FA should be called Rosy Retrospection. The past is always well remembered...

Typically few replies have addressed the question, which I don’t think was about the current standard of grit climbing.

FWIW I think grit has lost it’s ‘cool’ and social media may be a factor. When were bombarded with images of people climbing harder and higher stuff in exotic locations it’s hard to get excited about 10m of lichen covered rock near Sheffield.

It’ll either come back into fashion when we’re all too ashamed to fly or completely fade away when the NHS outsources ankle repairs to Kwik Fit

Grit has never been cool, in over 50 years climbing I've bothered to go there twice. Limestone sea cliffs are cool!

Over many years I've long since come to terms with the fact that my climbing preferences, and cool, are poorly correlated at best. More likely inversely correlated!

The wave is regularly reset to the highest standard, I really see no need to climb on the brown rocks. 

Rough and dirty, with small man syndrome?

After my two forty years apart visits to Swanage I've concluded that I have a strong preference for cliffs where the bits of rock look at least vaguely stuck together.

Yeh right. Maybe hard and bold except after toprope syndome?