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Petzl Lynx C3 front bail falling off

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 Will Hempstead 21 Jan 2020

Hi,

The other day one of my Lynxs fell off of my Nepals whilst leading p1 of Un Poco Loco. Addmitedly, I did ram my boot into a crack, and then try and pull my boot out upwards. I had noticed that the Petzl C3 front bail doesnt seem to fit the Nepals front welt very well, but assumed it would be ok with tension through the crampon when it was clipped on. 

I could just use c2 front bails, but when I was trying out crampons, I noticed that Grivels curved front bail fitted Nepals a bit better than Petzls more angular one. 

Does anyone have any experiance of Petzl c3 front bails falling off, or of using a Grivel front bail on Petzl crampons?

Cheers 

Post edited at 15:26
 mcawle 21 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

No direct experience of them popping, but I I have Lynx crampons and use them with Nepal Cubes. I always felt that the step-in bail looked insecure and so use the basket instead.

I have seen that Petzl make a small bail for narrow fit boots, although I have never tried it - e.g. https://www.climbers-shop.com/11104581/products/petzl-fil-small-crampon-toe...

 abcdef 21 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

How old are the Lynx? There is a thread from a couple of years ago mentioning the same, but I don't know if the most recent version may improve things (I doubt it - the new Dart looks like having the same angular bail).

You could use the plastic bail, or easily swap for any other one. My Lynx are a mish-mash of plastic bail, Grivel heel clip and BD strap - just what fitted my Nepals better at the time.

 rogerwebb 21 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

When I had Nepals I used DMM terminator front and back bails on whatever crampons I had (can't remember). I use lynx now. I have never had them come off phantom guides. Are you sure you didn't have a thin layer of hard packed snow under the fore foot?

If you have completely lost confidence in your footwear I have some old grivel front bails with the metal strip through which the rear strap goes for a belt and braces approach. They fit lynx, I just checked. If you want them email me your address. 

My old Lynx's used to pop off my spantiks, which i put down to the large curve on the soles of the size 47 boots. I swapped to the other style of bail for extra security.

 joe.91 21 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

Sportiva boots have a very shallow lip on the front welt so angled Petzl bails don't fit very well, hence two friends use the plastic bail rather than the wire. Best to use a grivel front bail with sportiva boots. The original Petzl bail works okay on Scarpa boots that have a deeper front welt. 

In reply to abcdef:

Theyre the recent models - bought them last year

In reply to rogerwebb:

Confident I didnt have any snow under the front welt, I give my boots a decent wack with an axe before the crampons go on.

In defence of the crampons, the exact situation was pretty much asking for the front bail to come off. I'd jammed the boots in a crack such that the front bail of the crampon was stuck in the rock. Then I (in quite a lot of desperation) pulled the boot up and out, leaving the crampon jammed in the crack. Even with a better fitting front bail I guess this could happen.

Those Grivel bails sound the best of both worlds. I've sent you an email, cheers. 

 TobyA 22 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

As you were trying a VII I sort of feel bad even asking this, but do you have your crampons set really tight on your boots - i.e. its really quite hard to level the back bail up into place (perhaps even needing to pull on the strap and definitely risking your fingers if they are in the way when it snaps into place!)? I can't remember the last time I lost a step in crampon and I climb quite a lot in winter conditions even now, and weekly or more a few years ago, normally with step ins, and on all sorts of different boots over the last 25 years+. I watch some people flick the heel lever into place with one finger - virtually no effort at all then hear stories of people's crampons coming off. These things might be connected!  

If your's go on really strongly and really snap close, then I bet it was just the weird situation you describe - I imagine on a hard route you are doing everything with power, jamming your foot in, pulling it out to get it on another hold and so on. Perhaps just bad luck?

I should add, I've used BD, CT, Grivel, DMM, Charlet, Salewa and Elderid crampons over the years - but never Petzl, so I suppose their toe bails might just be no good!

In reply to TobyA:

You can be on a VII and still be an absolute punter!

They are set up pretty tight, obviously its just the tension keeping them on. I think it was just a combination of bad luck and the petzl front bail not fitting the Nepals very well.

 Hard Hawk 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

I also have Nepal Extremes with the Lynx and I'm having the same fit issues. I've just ordered some Grivel G20 bails to see if they'll fit a bit better so I'll give you a shout if they fit the Lynx and boot better than the Petzl bails.

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Climbing-Equipment/Winter-Alpine-Exp...

Post edited at 14:21
 Smythson 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

The lynx have different bars (that connect the front and rear of the crampon) some of which offer more or less curve, I can't remember how mine were set up but check the angle of the front bail, it could be cheaper to replace bars than crampons 

 LucaC 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

I dislodged my crampon (old dart) leading the Secret because my toe welts (phantom techs) were worn down after 3 seasons of use. It happens... time for new boots! I’ve heard of people bending the petzl bales to fit their boots better, I don’t see why this wouldn’t work, but the lynx is quite adjustable so maybe check your fit?

In reply to LucaC:

Thats pretty mortifying!

My boots have only seen one season, but the toe welt on the nepals is pretty minimal. I've been sent some grivel front bails (thanks to Roger) with the metal strip to secure the crampon strap through, which has sorted it out nicely. 

On a side note, I'm not sure why sportiva make the front welt so minimal. Surely the tiny weight penalty of a larger front welt is made up for by a more secure fit?

 TobyA 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

That's odd, my Nepal Extremes were bought in 2000 and are still usable with step-ins now. They got used loads for ice climbing for the first 8 years after that, and then used regularly but not as often after that - last few years they've only done the odd day out - but still, they must have changed the design from the originals.

I think since Grivel first brought out semi-automatic bindings in the early 2000s there has been a big move towards them. They have few disadvantages over step-ins (especially after grivel realised the plastic they used on the first ones was rubbish!) and obvious advantages that it is really hard to loose a crampon using them, and they can deal with slightly bendier boots much better.

The bails you got from Roger sound good. Thinking back to my 2Fs in the 90s, and my Terminators through the 00s, I got used to step-ins having a metal strap from the toe bail to the ankle strap - seems like a good idea for just a few grams more. I'm now mainly climbing with a pair of BD Snaggletooth that don't have that, and I have looked down nervously at them a few times, but so far no problems! Touch wood etc.

In reply to TobyA:

Glad to hear I’ve bought boots which can last 20 years! I do have the modern ‘Cube’ version, which may have smaller front welts to save weight? Not sure if this is true though.

I think if I was climbing ice I wouldn’t be worried about the front bail coming off. Scottish mixed is more brutal than pure ice though, I feel like more secure front bails are worth it for all the weird jamming moves involved. 

 ColdWill 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

Strangely enough I had the same thing happen with Darts at Bidean nam Bian so it could be the crag.

 LucaC 24 Jan 2020
In reply to ColdWill:

Localised magnetic disturbances, clearly! 

 connor 25 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

Try the eledrid bails, I swapped out the standard petzl ones for them. 

 morpcat 25 Jan 2020
In reply to connor:

How easy/difficult was this? Did they go on without fuss or did you spend two hours in the garage with the file?

 connor 26 Jan 2020
In reply to morpcat:

They just take a bit of brute force

 Wayne S 26 Jan 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

Had exactly the same issue with Lynx crampons on La sportive boots.  The form of the front bail, which is a series of angles rather than a curve, just does not seem to work.  In the end I put some Black Diamond wide bails on the front, though these are tight and hard to fit, but worked much better.  I also trimmed the boots with a very sharp knife, taking a slither off at a time until the rail was set back enough.  Probably not what you want d to hear, but I think you will be on a hiding to nothing simply adjusting the fit.

Wayne

 Hard Hawk 01 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

So having bought Grivel bails and Black Diamond Regular and Narrow bails these were my findings.

The Grivel bails are far too wide for the Petal Lynx and feel like they would pop off the crampon itself rather than the boot.

The regular Black Diamond bails fit well however allowed a bit of side to side movement of the boot.

The real winner was the narrow Black Diamond bail which fits like an absolute glove and perfectly conforms to the welt of my 2018 La Sportiva Nepal Extremes. Takes a bit of brute force to fit to my Petzl Lynx crampons but once they're on and the boot is in it feels absolutely bomber!

 Misha 01 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hempstead:

Not had any Lynx issues but I use Scarpa boots for winter. I’m impressed you used good old Nepals for a VII, bet that doesn’t happen very often these days. 

Should add that I used Nepals for years with G14s and not had any issues. 

Post edited at 22:34
 bigredsquirrel 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Misha:

Sorry to jump on this thread but I recently bought a pair of Lynx crampons having read good reviews, for my La Sportiva Nepal Evos. As well as the toe bail not fitting perfectly, I'm finding the front points seem to angle inwards, so that I would have to turn both feet outwards for the front points to be perpendicular to ice. Anyone had similar issue /can offer advice? This wasn't the case in my old Grivels so not sure how this would feel when climbing. Thanks

 abcdef 17 Feb 2020
In reply to bigredsquirrel:

this is by design - looks odd admittedly, but supposed to be a more natural way to engage the front points than having your whole foot perpendicular to the ice.

(often wondered though if it has caused an increase in trips as people catch their own gaiter when walking....)

 HardenClimber 17 Feb 2020
In reply to bigredsquirrel:

It might depend what you are doing, but the 'basket' gives a pretty good fit and holds the toe securely.

The 'angled' front points seem to work well.


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