UKC

My partner said that she heard on the news early last week that the Chinese had offered to build HS2 in five years for half of the cost. I’ve not heard any reference to this on the news since, has Boris put a gagging order on it?

In reply to Baz P:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51521965

Government claims not to have heard about any discussions with China. 

In reply to Ridge:

Thanks for that. Obviously there are a lot of people not wanting to give up their slice of 100bn. 

In reply to Baz P:

5 years sounds far too long for the Chinese. They've just built a hospital in two weeks

In reply to Baz P:I'd be thinking that if you give the contract to the Chinese you're saving on cost but losing on value.  These big infrastructure projects are partly  to renew UK construction economy,  not  the Chinese, plus their workers. 

In reply to wbo2:

^ This.

I'd be interested if the Chinese costings are based on a command economy dictating labour rates and absence of H&S, and might well substantially increase. However, it's possible we could negotiate a really good apprentice / graduate engineer training scheme on the back of such an offer, (assuming the current government have any interest in the plebs getting something out of it).

In reply to Ridge:

... And obviously the Chinese will be completely familiar with our planning laws, our SSIs, our historical sites, and will fully comply with the regs that govern our overcrowded, historically dense little island...

In reply to Trangia:

Is that not some tents in a field?

In reply to Ridge:

They also might not be taking into account the hassle around planning permissions etc. Lot cheaper and quicker when you can vanish any awkward objectors whether thats environmental campaigners or workers being tedious about dangerous working conditions.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Not to mention the protestors! 

In reply to Baz P:

Will we have enough masks?

In reply to Baz P:

Buy one railway get one re-education camp for free?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Yes, you can see the attraction, from Johnson's point of view.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Having travelled on Chinese trains I can vouch for them as being fast, efficient, reasonably priced and substantially more pleasant than the offerings in the UK (oh and on time) and they come with hot water dispensers so you can eat pot-noodles on the train as you cruise at 350kph. 

In reply to gravy: oh yes, went Shanghai to Beijing and it was great.  Better than flying and our new trains and first class seem pedestrian, shabby, delayed, poor service, over priced and uncomfortable and I love travelling by train or used to.

cheers

toby

In reply to gravy:

They can say what they want about Xi Jinping, but at least the trains run on time.

In reply to Ridge:

The correct saying seems to be:

They cant say what they want about pooh bear, unless they want to end up in a reeducation camp.

In reply to pasbury:

No, its a fully functioning hospital; albeit one built off-site in a modular fashion, shipped to site and essentially bolted together.

In reply to Phil79:

Tesco built a temporary supermarket in less than a week when a road bridge in Workington collapsed. They took the view that it was more cost effective than losing trade, even if they were prosecuted for breaching planning regs.

Chucking up a modular or portal frame building is dead easy, especially if you're a totalitarian regime (not referring to Tesco BTW).

In reply to Phil79:

Although reports indicate its not properly staffed or utilised. Good for the cameras with all those diggers but not overly effective.

In reply to Baz P:

I suspect this has more to do with sowing the seeds of political division in a competitor nation than a serious bid for an infrastructure project, assuming of course the story originated in China rather than some No.10 back office, nothing like the threat of being shown up by Johnny foreigner to get us all pulling together and ignore what's actually happening.

jk

In reply to Ridge:

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2018/11/03/making-trains-r...

Apparently it's a myth about Mussolini doing that. Which is interesting to know.

In reply to Baz P:

Get an alternate quote in to scare the current bidders.  Make them really knuckle down their fees etc.

In reply to MJAngry:

Well, it certainly seems to be turning more into a gravy train than an express train project. 

In reply to mondite:

Seems entirely plausible. 

In reply to mondite:

I watched a 5 storey building get thrown up in about 4 weeks in China about 25 years ago. No hard hats, flip - flops de rigeur, workers slept on site, build quality awful. But it got done!

best of all, most of the work force were women

In reply to Baz P:

I’d imagine the Chinese contractors might find it hard to get the coolies in this country.

jcm

In reply to MJAngry:

Dont forget that halving the latest estimate still means an increase on the original estimate of over 35%. It doesnt seem to be an unreasonable thing to do if it makes the contractor sit up and take notice; its about time the taxpayer wasnt seen as a bottomless pit of money for the taking.

In reply to Baz P:

People can stick their head in the sand and stick to outdated stereotypes if they want.  The Chinese will be cheap because they build a lot of high speed lines in far more difficult terrain and they have a formidable supply chain.

It's a strategic call whether its something we want to get back in this country.  If it is, expect it to cost us a lot more.

In reply to Baz P:

To quote what is probably also a myth, in Africa it's said that the Chinese win contracts through super-cheap prices laced with kickbacks, the price achieved by using convicts as labour. The catch is that once the contract has finished the convicts are not allowed to return to China....

In reply to Rigid Raider:

They could probably used our 1.2m unemployed then.

In reply to GrahamD: 

It'd be a good way for them to gain more of a business footing in this country whatever it actually does cost them, too, for them to charge under the odds for a major infrastructure project like HS2, what with Brexit and 'forging a new trading relationship' in mind and things. It strikes me that the Chinese government can name a sum almost and make it happen, if them building HS2 is towards their long term benefit strategically speaking, with it being a one party state and them being in charge, they can decide to absorb the cost. 

I'd be wondering what a regime like China's has in mind in the longer term, not 'because they're Chinese' but because it's the Chinese Communist Party, and how globally they're rather a bully to do with geopolitics. If the Dalai Lama visits a country, they find a way to snub them and then allude to why they did for instance. It's a lovely regime on the world stage.

In reply to Timmd:

There was some interesting things like this in the book Prisoners of Geography. E.g. China funding big ports in poorer countries with overland transport links to them. 

One of them was bound to fail and when it did the Chinese government wrote off the debts but took control of the port and then had a perfect naval base closer to Europe & in a great strategic position.

The particulars of the above example may be a little wrong but the general gist is there. Similar to a lot of the development in Africa which countries are pumping money into - much of it is very strategic and has strings attached to help them out and exert power further afield. 

The geopolitics are fascinating/terrifying.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You not heard of Brexit? All that's going to happen is the accents of the immigrants will change. Countries lining up to do these "easy" trade deals BoJo and Gove tell us about are all going to give us all the free trade we want. All they'll ask in return is unlimited visas. 

In reply to mondite:

Tbats being sought via a hybrid bill. So essentially "planning permission" will be granted by Parliament. There are requirements to monitor natural history, cultural heritage etc 

In reply to James Malloch: 

Yes, there's a lot of neocolonialism happening in Africa under China at the moment, I wouldn't claim to know enough to guess why it's wanting to give us a good deal on building HS2. 

In reply to Timmd:

A “Great Game” is afoot between China and USA. The UK is a juicy pawn in that contest. Witness US horror at our selecting Huawei to install 5G infrastructure.

In reply to BnB:

I think the US horror goes a bit wider globally then just the USA.

In reply to Timmd:

One of our (Australia) biggest exports to China (coal) is now sitting in large bottlenecks at Chinese ports, just after we said no to their Huawei 5G bid, which was rejected on security grounds. The Chinese are supposedly testing coal samples for radioactivity.

In reply to Raymondo:

Makes a change from us having to scan every steel import from China for radioactivity I suppose.