UKC

Is being a mountain guide the worst job?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Le Sapeur 20 Feb 2020

I'll narrow that down to.. Is being a mountain guide in Scotland during the 2019/20 winter season the worst job? Endlessly trudging up and down the Ben in the crap weather we have had for the past 3 months must be so soul destroying.  I'm looking out of a rain lashed window thinking how awful it would have to be to get up at 5am tomorrow morning and take a novice up into the hills. 

Maybe it's the 3rd glass of Octomore and a hot log burning stove that's making me averse to stepping outside in a gale.

1
 blackcat 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Probably being a mountain guide based  in the lake district this year is worse still.

Le Sapeur 20 Feb 2020
In reply to blackcat:

Are there winter guides in the Lake District? Tenuous living to be made there.

 GHawksworth 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Being paid to play in the hills? Better than mucking out stables.

1
Le Sapeur 20 Feb 2020
In reply to GHawksworth:

Not if you love horses.

 summo 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

A bad day on the hill beats a good day in an office, any day of the week. 

25
Le Sapeur 20 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

I've done both and believe me, it really does not. 

Yesterday I went into my office for about 3 hours. I chatted a bit, had a coffee and a patisserie, signed a few things and drove home. That (to me) is better that a shitty day walking around in a bog in the rain.

8
Le Sapeur 20 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> A bad day on the hill beats a good day in an office, any day of the week. 

I'd say an ok day on the hills is better than etc etc.

 jezb1 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

I teach and guide climbing through the non winter months, and then bugger off to Spain.

Suffering around the Scottish grimness seems absolutely dire to me about 29 days out of 30. 

Some people love it though, and occasionally I can see why.

 Dax H 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

There are plenty of jobs worse than a mountain guide. I spent my afternoon kneeling in human effluent replacing machinery on a sewage works. 

 Ridge 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Dax H:

> I spent my afternoon kneeling in human effluent replacing machinery on a sewage works. 

I used to quite like sewer work in the winter.

1
GoneFishing111 20 Feb 2020
In reply to jezb1:

Personal question, tell me to mind my own if you like but what is your living situation? Do you rent a house for 6 months and then go to Spain, return rinse and repeat?

 Andy Hardy 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Dax H:

You win.

Hope you charged them for the laundry!

Moley 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Turning your hobby into your job is not always the best idea.

 jezb1 20 Feb 2020
In reply to GoneFishing111:

> Personal question, tell me to mind my own if you like but what is your living situation? Do you rent a house for 6 months and then go to Spain, return rinse and repeat?

We own a home in N Wales (cheap property there so only a fairly small mortgage), and then rent a place here in Spain for 3 months of the year. Works well for us

 subtle 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Moley:

> Turning your hobby into your job is not always the best idea.

I did that when I was 16 to 19 years old, realised that it would not pay me  what I wanted to earn  so changed jobs - 25 years later I still hanker for that life even though I am better paid 

 Osiris 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Moley:

> Turning your hobby into your job is not always the best idea.

I think I may be onto a winning formula one day: agency nursing over the winter + guiding/teaching over the summer; well paid and no pressure to do the work you're not interested in, hence continued satisfaction with both. I'd imagine doing most jobs full time or relying on a hobby for income would cause dissatisfaction (I feel incredibly grateful I can avoid both).

Answer to the original post: I'd imagine even the worst days would be better than many jobs out there.

Post edited at 22:43
 mcdougal 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Yesterday I went into my office for about 3 hours. I chatted a bit, had a coffee and a patisserie, signed a few things and drove home. That (to me) is better that a shitty day walking around in a bog in the rain.

Yesterday I ran round in a bog in the rain. I can promise you that (depending on the cake (by the way, what kind of cake was it?)) I wouldn't swap you.

 summo 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Yesterday I went into my office for about 3 hours. I chatted a bit, had a coffee and a patisserie, signed a few things and drove home. That (to me) is better that a shitty day walking around in a bog in the rain.

You are more fortunate than most office workers, if that was your average days work.

Many are doing three times that long glued to a screen, no pastries either. Then all the office workers head to their gyms and sit on machines that simulate their bodies moving, because internally we are hard wired to be active? 

Look at the rise of MAMILs on the roads, park runs etc folk are trying to meet their bodies desires that just aren't met in an office. 

People in the hills are not the only workers out in the weather; farming, forestry, fisheries, construction etc... I'm sure many will long for their dream weather, but few would happily swap it for a call centre in a city centre. A lot of climbing community workers have arrived there from 'normal' jobs, a conscious choice. 

 Dax H 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Moley:

> Turning your hobby into your job is not always the best idea.

A good friend of mine  did just that. He is mad on motorcycles and landed a job as a test rider for triumph. When other bikers hear about this they are all very jealous indeed.

Until he tells them about the reality. It's all self employed work, when doing road tests (the biggest part of the job) you have to get 300 miles done in the day to get 8 hours pay or 400 miles for 10 hours pay, you are out 5 days a week regardless of the weather or you don't earn a wage. On track testing days you might do 8 hours riding back and forth on a cobbled road section for a week. 

Mr average Biker who only takes the bike out on sunny days between May and October suddenly changes their mind. 

 yorkshireman 21 Feb 2020

In reply to NERD:

> The idea of spending most of my working life sat looking at a monitor fills me with horror. Although they are exceptions. If I was a porn editor or video game tester I think I'd be pretty cool with it.

Obviously looking at a monitor shouldn't be what you're being paid to do - its just a tool of the job. Lots of office jobs are pretty mind numbing I admit, but that's down to the way certain companies and management view their workforce in terms of giving autonomy and freedom to be creative.

I'm lucky that for the most part my office jobs have been engaging and fulfilling as its about finding solutions to problems and each day throws up new challenges, and for the most part I'm lucky enough to work with likeminded people.

The other benefit now is that I spend most of my time working in my home office in the Alps. I rather smugly posted this view from my office window yesterday morning shortly before going for a lunchtime run. I feel like I've come a long way from working in a 'The Office' style office underneath the M40 flyover in High Wycombe in the late 90s.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8yKNjsIjWK/

I just wish laptop screens could be read easily in direct sunlight - its beautiful out in the sun at the moment (one compensation for crap snowfall) but too cold to sit in the shade.

 PaulJepson 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

I really like sitting down. Like, I can't get over in words how much I like sitting down. 

I turned my passion into a career and haven't looked back.

Moley 21 Feb 2020
In reply to subtle:

> I did that when I was 16 to 19 years old, realised that it would not pay me  what I wanted to earn  so changed jobs - 25 years later I still hanker for that life even though I am better paid 

For some people in some jobs it works out well, depends on the job and individual I suppose, but others can end up turning something they are passionate about into the mundane and disillusioned.

I think if you are working with the public, as a guide or instructor  of any type you do need to be blessed with a very resilient mentality, once you see the bad side of some people you do end up wanting to Chuck them off the cliff or into a river. I certainly did.

1
 LucaC 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

If it makes you feel any better, I currently have a zero percent success rate on summiting the Ben with clients this season....

1
 arose 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

It’s been a tough season. I was glad to see the back of January after many wet pants days. I am however astounded by how keen people are for getting out and how happy they are for an adventure no matter how poor the conditions. I feel massively privileged to be able to make a living from providing people with these adventures and for the most part am always happy in my career choice. There are amazing days climbing dream routes or helping people with lifelong dreams and there is a very strong community of mountain professionals and local climbers.  Scottish winter is fickle and by being out every day you get both the best and the worst of it. I can think of a lot worse jobs. 

Removed User 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Day in, day out doing something dull and often crushingly tedious is his most people make a living. Welcome to the world of the grown ups.........

Post edited at 09:46
 JohnnyW 21 Feb 2020
In reply to LucaC:

> If it makes you feel any better, I currently have a zero percent success rate on summiting the Ben with clients this season....

I am a full time leader, and like you, have had a torrid time this winter. No snow or ice to introduce clients to, or where it was wasn't accessible due to the constant howling wind. If we did get anywhere, folks are so cowed in their hoods and goggles that it's an effort just to communicate.

.....and they're the jobs that weren't cancelled.

Currently poring over maps and forecasts in the forlorn hope that I can conjur up some relative shelter for my planned two days this weekend. I have taken imagination, creativity and optimism to a whole new level this winter, and that's saying something given the previous few!

Oh, and prior to this I worked on stock fencing, in the rain, wind and mud. And no, that wasn't any less tortuous, just better paid.

Mind, last winter I did get 3 separate weeks cycle leading in Majorca......bliss after the above scenarios it was, a weekend of being soaked and trying to drum up client enthusiasm, then a week of sun, dry roads and pure enjoyment........*sigh*

Post edited at 09:35
 Neil Williams 21 Feb 2020
In reply to subtle:

> I did that when I was 16 to 19 years old, realised that it would not pay me  what I wanted to earn  so changed jobs - 25 years later I still hanker for that life even though I am better paid 

That's kind of the problem.  My job is IT, I'm good at it and it pays very well, enabling me to get outside whenever I want, pretty much.  But it isn't as enjoyable as working in the hills would be, so if that was paid more...

Le Sapeur 21 Feb 2020

In reply to NERD:

> I once went on a holiday to Scotland, which involved a failed attempt to get to the top of Ben Nevis in winter conditions. It was fun. 

'Once' being the key word in that sentence.  Picture doing that 5 days a week from Nov to April.

Le Sapeur 21 Feb 2020
In reply to mcdougal:

> (by the way, what kind of cake was it?)) 

It was a tarte aux fruits. Pastry base with some French custardy stuff and topped with raspberries, cherries etc. We have a rather pretentious French artisan patissier close to the office. To be fair they aren't pretentious, but they are French.

Le Sapeur 21 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> You are more fortunate than most office workers, if that was your average days work.

It's my own office so yes, fortunate (via a bit of hard work over the years). I've been very lucky in not having to sit still and stare at screens all day throughout my career. The office is a by-product of my business and I don't go in very often. 

 PaulJepson 21 Feb 2020
In reply to arose:

Isn't the point of Scottish Winter Mountaineering the suffering? Surely all this wind and rain is a dream!

1
 summo 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> It's my own office so yes, fortunate (via a bit of hard work over the years). I've been very lucky...

I wouldn't say it's luck. When folk say someone's lucky etc. what's likely is that person grafted, had a few ups and downs, to get to their 'lucky' position. 

Just like the guides and instructors out next winter during Februarys prolonged high pressure,  who'll be ticking off the ridges and faces in glorious crisp sunny weather. Everyone will say they are so lucky! 

 JuneBob 21 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> I wouldn't say it's luck. When folk say someone's lucky etc. what's likely is that person grafted, had a few ups and downs, to get to their 'lucky' position. 

It probably is luck though:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/21/17687402/kylie-jenner-luck...

 summo 21 Feb 2020
In reply to JuneBob:

That's not luck though is it, family connections, Kardashians, Sex tapes, OJ Simpson's lawyer etc.. there is no chance or fate in there. She wasn't a cleaner, spotted wiping tables in McDonald's and catapulted to stardom. 

99% graft over luck. Luck is the 1 in however many 14? Million odds lottery winner. 

 profitofdoom 21 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> 99% graft over luck. Luck is the 1 in however many 14? Million odds lottery winner. 

I agree, hard work is more important than luck in passing exams, succeeding at work and the like. But luck definitely exists, e.g. it's bad luck if 8 tons of masonry falls on your head walking down Regent Street. My meeting Mrs. Profitofdoom was good luck,  though making it all work after that wasn't "luck" IMO

 summo 21 Feb 2020
In reply to profitofdoom:

> But luck definitely exists, e.g. it's bad luck if 8 tons of masonry falls on your head walking down Regent Street. 

Odds risk and probability. If you don't walk down that street you've not been lucky, you've deliberately removed the risk. If you like we create our own luck.

 Baz P 22 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

Can’t remember exactly who it was but someone told a sportsman that it was a lucky win, to which he replied “ yes the more I train the luckier I get”.

Removed User 22 Feb 2020
In reply to Baz P:

That sounds like a Gary Player quote-"The harder I practice, the luckier I get"

Removed User 22 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

In any case, it must surely be better than retrieving lobsters?

 jon 22 Feb 2020
In reply to Removed Userena sharples:

Lovely girl, Jane...

 Timmd 23 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> I wouldn't say it's luck. When folk say someone's lucky etc. what's likely is that person grafted, had a few ups and downs, to get to their 'lucky' position. 

> Just like the guides and instructors out next winter during Februarys prolonged high pressure,  who'll be ticking off the ridges and faces in glorious crisp sunny weather. Everyone will say they are so lucky! 

I agree people often don't get to be lucky without hard graft, but even a millionaire I know of says luck played a part too. 

Edit: As a therapist once put it to me, 'Often life isn't either this or that - it's somewhere in the middle or both.' 

Post edited at 13:19
 chris687 23 Feb 2020
In reply to LucaC:

Sounds like boneidleness to me. 

1
 jaggy bunnet 23 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

never turn a hobby into a  jobbie.

Post edited at 19:42
Removed User 23 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

How about...

12 hour shifts in a waste recycling plant on minimum wage. Two shifts, either 4am to 4pm or 4pm to 4am.

I mention this as it was offered to a friend of mine on the dole. It also happened to be on the other side of Glasgow. He didn't have a car and can't drive.

 jasonC abroad 24 Feb 2020

In reply to NERD:

I work with a guy who use to be a test for Sega (I think), its not the job you'd think it is, esp when your an expert at the game and have to replay again to check some code change for the 20th time..

Rigid Raider 25 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

In my early 20s when these things were un-regulated I landed a summer job as Leader for Rambler's Holidays. Nothing like a guide of course, the French would call it Accompagnateur de Moyenne Montagne. But looking back now I realise that even bumbling around in the lower parts of the Alps there were a couple of times when my lack of experience could have got clients into trouble and me into deep poop.  After 15 weeks of trudging up and down while coping with chronic tendonitis in one heel I had had enough despite the kindness of the locals and the clients and the beauty of the mountains so I concluded that the outdoor life was something I would rather keep as a pastime, not an occupation. Same with teaching, which I tried as an English Assistant during my third year in Spain. 

In reply to Le Sapeur:

When I left school I used to turn up to a local temping agency and would be picked up in a minibus with a bunch of other people to be dropped off at various factories for a days work. This particular day was in the middle of summer and the hottest day of the year. mid 30's at least. I was wearing flip flops, singlet and shorts. Dropped off at some soulless industrial estate and lead into a giant fridge/freezer room of a coleslaw manufacturers and given the task to remove hundreds upon hundreds of freezing cabbages from giant cardboard boxes and put into crates for processing. I was given a hair net, rubber gloves and a lab coat for warmth by the foreman.

That day involved suffering that I imagine compares to an awful winters day climbing in the Scottish highlands

 WaterMonkey 25 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Are there winter guides in the Lake District? Tenuous living to be made there.

Not sure if you've got facebook but I put up a video on the scrambling and mountaineering page at the weekend. Pretty wintery at the moment!

Roadrunner6 25 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

RD's and Mountain Guides.. awful jobs. Hardest jobs ever.

The best job ever is teacher, barely work, always on holiday, don't do anything.. fill kids minds with idealistic liberal ideas. Just easy... It's so well paid almost 50% of teachers quit within 5 years presumably to retire rich...

1
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Work is work. You might be in a nice place but stupid clients get irritating, views become commonplace etc. It always becomes tedious. Try eating your favourite food for every single meal, eventually you want something else.

I think the secret to enjoying work is not trying to remove the work aspect, but making the job give you something significant in return. This can be money, or it can be rewarding in other ways such as helping other people, or achieving creative dreams. 

Climbing is a good analogy for that - all the physical pain, long walk-ins, injuries, struggles, grade plateau-ing, fear on dangerous climbs etc. We endure all this because for that brief moment it all comes together. It gives us something more than the sum of it's parts. I think that is something to aim for in your work life. 

2
 summo 25 Feb 2020
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> Work is work. You might be in a nice place but stupid clients get irritating, views become commonplace etc. It always becomes tedious. Try eating your favourite food for every single meal, 

99.9% aren't stupid.. they are paying hard earned money to go into the hills to learn and or achieve something. They've come to you from a vast range of backgrounds, varied professions, whilst occupying the walk in, it is quite often the mountain instructor/guide/leader that can learn something about none mountain related things. So it's not really the same meal, all folk differ if you engage with them and whilst you might get repeated preconceptions, that's your job to eliminate them, it's often not their fault just untruths gained from the media. 

Post edited at 16:23
1
 summo 25 Feb 2020
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> Climbing is a good analogy for that - all the physical pain, long walk-ins, injuries, struggles, grade plateau-ing, fear on dangerous climbs etc. 

Sounds like you're doing it all wrong, think you need a day out with an instructor! ;(

2
In reply to Le Sapeur:

I have been shot down for this before and likely will be again but when your hobby becomes your job, you need another hobby. 

I know this from experience and swore I would not let it happen with climbing. 

If I spent a working week guiding folks in the mountains, I don't think I would want to climb for myself at the weekend. 

1
Moley 25 Feb 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> I have been shot down for this before and likely will be again but when your hobby becomes your job, you need another hobby. 

Totally agree, as I said early in this thread, but for interest I shall give my personal example, which is nothing to do with climbing  or guiding.

As a kid I was obsessed with fish and fishing and eventually my dream came true and I worked in fish farming and managing commercial fisheries. At which point the gloss comes off the job when I dealt with exactly the same conversations every day, pick up the same litter every day, see the same cheating, exaggerating or downright lying every day. Only a small percentage were like that, but enough to spoil the whole job.

I also qualified as an instructor and very much enjoyed teaching, but again the small percentage of t***s could drive me to distraction, except women, they were always the easiest to teach as they simply listened and did as asked, a joy - are they like that in climbing?

Anyway, long ago I moved away from that job and again enjoy my fishing but rarely seek the company of other anglers.

 jezb1 25 Feb 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> I have been shot down for this before and likely will be again but when your hobby becomes your job, you need another hobby. 

That may well be true for plenty of folk, but for many it isn't.

I love climbing. I love teaching / guiding / coaching climbing. I can be out at work all day and still be psyched to either train on the board / at the wall or go out evening cragging etc.

In reply to summo:

My point was that climbing has significant physical and mental hurdles, assuming you don't just potter around on stuff 3 grades below your ability. Maybe go and be patronising to someone else yeah?

4
In reply to summo:

I didn't mean stupid in the intellectual sense, I meant stupid as in unpleasant and difficult to work with. It was a flippant comment trying to convey the difficulties that are found in any job that has interaction with members of the public. Maybe you've been privileged enough to never have experienced people like this.

1
 Strachan 25 Feb 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

I realise having opened this thread that it's not really the point, but it brought this rather interesting article to mind...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/aug/16/what-really-thinking-m...

 Timmd 28 Feb 2020
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

I know of somebody who worked in engineering until their early 70's, and they pretty much retired a year or 2 after suddenly getting tired of managing 'people politics' in their company, up until that moment they'd always found the balance worthwhile towards making the world a safer place in their particular way. I guess that was their return which outweighed the hard work and sometimes long hours. 

Post edited at 00:39

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...