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Five Ten Dragon (new model) breaking in?

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 12Holds 02 Mar 2020

Does anyone have any opinions having used the latest Five Ten Dragons for a while, on if the break in/stretch at all. I'm a street 9 and can't decide between a 9.5 or 10. The 9.5 feel VERY tight on the toes (big toe knuckle especially) and once you put weight on them it's pretty rough. The 10 feels much more comfortable but I'm worried maybe a little too comfortable out of the box if they are then going to break in. I know they are quite aggressive so not designed for comfort, just trying to gauge how uncomfortable I fancy being.

If anyone has a pair and can give me some feedback of mainly the toe box breaking in or not that would be great

Cheers

 krikoman 02 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

> Does anyone have any opinions having used the latest Five Ten Dragons for a while, on if the break in/stretch at all. I'm a street 9 and can't decide between a 9.5 or 10. The 9.5 feel VERY tight on the toes (big toe knuckle especially) and once you put weight on them it's pretty rough. The 10 feels much more comfortable but I'm worried maybe a little too comfortable out of the box if they are then going to break in. I know they are quite aggressive so not designed for comfort, just trying to gauge how uncomfortable I fancy being.

> If anyone has a pair and can give me some feedback of mainly the toe box breaking in or not that would be great

> Cheers


What grade are you climbing, comfortable shoes up to 6c is my rule.*

* Others may have different rules.

10
 Indignancy 02 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

I haven’t worn mine too much yet, but they don’t seem to be stretching very much at all. I wouldn’t really expect them to either, given the amount of rubber on the toes...

fantastic shoe though!

 gazhbo 02 Mar 2020
In reply to Indignancy:

They definitely break in a bit.

I used to wear a 9 in the old dragons.  I ordered so in a 9 and couldn’t get them on.  Changed them for 9.5 which were unbearable for a few sessions but now feel about right.  Starting to loosen up a bit as well.  I’m also a size 9 in street shoes but have quite fingery toes which are quite bunched up in the toe box.

OP 12Holds 02 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Bouldering I'm getting pretty solid on the V4-6 circuit and can manage 6c's on top rope.

I've been climbing in Jokers up until now and they have been the perfect shoe to start out on. Super comfortable even at a good tight size.

OP 12Holds 02 Mar 2020
In reply to gazhbo:

Yes the amount of rubber on the toe box was what had me wondering if they would break in at all or not.

Unbearable is probably how I would describe the 9.5 out of the box. The whole shoe was fine other than the big toe really. I think the knuckle would press right on a seam. They were very compactly bunched and then putting weight on them makes that more so. But if the rubber starts to flex a little then maybe the toes will become bearable. Oh the decision.

 deacondeacon 02 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

Perhaps they're not the right shoes for you? Have you tried many other shoes? Aggressive, technical shoes don't have to be painful if you get the right ones to suit your foot 

 Liamhutch89 02 Mar 2020

Yes, I'm a street shoe 10 and have 9.5's. They were excruciating at first on the smallest 2 toes but are now breaking in nicely. I generally prefer how synthetic shoes break in compared to leather as they become moulded to your foot without stretching out and getting baggy. It just takes a bit longer 

 George_Surf 02 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

id maybe consider the bigger pair, if you can't stand in them its not a good sign and if you're not doing really hard bouldering then I dont think you need them that tight. even if they loosen up a bit its not like they're going to be falling off? wear them in the house for a few hours off and on and see how they feel is one option!

OP 12Holds 02 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

You sized down? Wow, you must have just the right feet for them. Everywhere I looked people said they have had to size up for Dragons, as weird as that is.

 petegunn 03 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

I've had 3 pairs of the old dragon lace in a uk 9. My new pair (velcro) are also a uk 9.

I did try to get on an 8 but couldn't even get it on my foot. Think iam a street uk 9.

Pretty tight for a few weeks but are now fine (can leave them on for an ~ 1hour).

What's weird though when placed together the new shoes are bigger in length??

I really like them, 5.10 just seem to fit my feet like no other brand. Shame they no longer do the whites though

Post edited at 00:04
 Neil Morrison 03 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

Hi bought a pair of size 10 recently and am a 8.5/9 street shoe. I use the Bananafingers tool and find it very accurate. Having said that they are tight but now starting to bed in nicely. On that basis I’ve just ordered a pair of 9.5s to give me a bit more control at the heel though I expect to have a struggle bedding them in.

 HeMa 03 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> What grade are you climbing, comfortable shoes up to 6c is my rule.*

> * Others may have different rules.

My rules is almost the same, ’cept I’d raise the bar to mid 7s (boulder or route). And even then it’s not really the shoe that keeps me down. 
 

can’t help the OP, but as a rule of thumb 510s don’t really strech (Moccasym was the exception), but mold to your feet (or the other way round). For sizing, the rule has been street shoe size. Albeit on the performance end this can require tweaking. I’n pretty much eur 42 on all my 510s and street shoe, but with Teams I had to size up as I could not get the eur 42 on my feet at all. Even 42.5 was around 7A+ for effort to put on (and once on, felt a tad too big). So now using eur 43s, as getting them on is now a good warm up (6C or so) but don’t feel too waisted afterwards. 
 

N.B my best efforts in boulder and sport have been in the low to mid 7s.

1
 imahuman118 03 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

They normally stretch by 1/3 of a size (more in hotspots) and get more comfortable with sweat inside them. If I were in this situation I'd get them tight, after all performance shoes are meant to be tight.

However if you think they're going to put you off climbing in them then go loose, my girlfriend sized down more then she can handle on expensive shoes and now they live in a cupboard.

 krikoman 03 Mar 2020
In reply to HeMa:

> My rules is almost the same, ’cept I’d raise the bar to mid 7s (boulder or route). And even then it’s not really the shoe that keeps me down. 

probably more accurate.

To the OP if you're climbing in Jokers, almost any other shoe will be better, I've had mine for 3 weeks now and find them really random, I've had more slips in these than all my other shoes put together, not only that but even on what should be solid foot placements they slip off, while most of the time even on dodgy hold they do stick, weird.

FTR my shoes are a size bigger than street, I find I get more out of the climbing experience by being able to climb all day than pushing grades, the smallest fraction.

1
 misterb 03 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

It's no wonder your feet are coming off holds if you are sizing up 1size from street shoe.You may as well climb in trainers.

Floppy jokers in 2 sizes bigger than they need to be? And you are attempting to climb up to 6c which you think Is an `easy` grade that everyone can Climb without the aid of a precision shoe

weird!

 krikoman 04 Mar 2020
In reply to misterb:

> Floppy jokers in 2 sizes bigger than they need to be? And you are attempting to climb up to 6c which you think Is an `easy` grade that everyone can Climb without the aid of a precision shoe

> weird!

I didn't say they were floppy, where did you get that from?

Shoes aren't "precision" it's the foot work that the precision part of the equation.

I also didn't say 6C was "easy", what I said was you don't need over-tight, asymmetric, uncomfortable shoes to climb 6C.

I'd much rather be climbing than having to take my boots off and rest my feet. So I choose comfortable shoes and climb all day, and then the next day if I can.

Maybe you're making it too easy for yourself

Post edited at 09:47
 HeMa 04 Mar 2020
In reply to misterb:

> Floppy jokers in 2 sizes bigger than they need to be? And you are attempting to climb up to 6c which you think Is an `easy` grade that everyone can Climb without the aid of a precision shoe

Well, my old Shamans are about 2 to 3 sizes too big for a "performance" fit. Yet they seem to get me up techy and precise 7A to 7Bs just fine (which btw is my maximum). And yes, using one of my performance sized shoes doesn't really make much of a difference (in effort to get up said problems). So yeah, 6C problems (unless friction slab) can pretty much be climbed in sneakers (have done that quite few times, takes more effort than with climbing shoes though).

OP 12Holds 04 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

Opened a can of worms it seems

I found the Jokers a great starting out shoe. Went down a half size with those and they were great, broke in nicely and did the job whilst being comfortable enough to wear all day even when tight. But they stink and are wearing at the toe a bit now so wanted something stickier and technical.

Very true, technical shoes wont fix rubbish footwork and I'm busy working on my technique all round and training at the same time. I just felt I couldn't trust my Jokers any more on tiny footholds.

I went with the larger size Dragons in the end and they feel super snug overall and just enough less pressure on the big toe knuckle. I'm going to wear them as my transition pair towards anything mega tight and aggressive. Although at the mo I do agree that not being crushed to death isn't as important as enjoying the climb. A few more grades up and I'll let you know.

Took them out for a climb at Harrow today and they felt great. Lovely and grippy, toe box was great for hooks and the size seemed good. The laces help to get the fit all over the foot right.

Cheers for all the advice folk. I'll let you know if it all goes wrong as they break in/mould.

 Liamhutch89 04 Mar 2020
In reply to HeMa:

I find the notion that shoes don't make a huge difference crazy! When I'm projecting outdoor boulders I'm rarely wearing an actual set pair of shoes as I tend to find one footfold works with one shoe and another (on the other foot) often works better with another shoe! That's only at similar grades too, 7B to 7C ish, and for me it can be make or break for sending the problem. Maybe it's just grit! 

 HeMa 05 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

Well, I’ve never bouldered 7C so maybe it changes around there.

But I think your mixing two things, the performance of the shoe and your trust in the shoe. And saying you practice the problem with different shoes, I’m now assuming you manage to do moves or even links. Then you clearly can do the problem in said shoes. 
 

I’n not saying you shouldn’t use performance fit shoes. But What I’n saying is to take a real analytical approach to things and figure out What is really the root-cause. Sure, Sometimes on a given problem a certain shoe can be a huge benefit (say a thin slipper to highstep on a really tiny crystals), other times one kind of shoe makes things a lot harder (loose comfort slipper on a heelhook traverse extravaganza).

 Liamhutch89 05 Mar 2020
In reply to HeMa:

Last night I was working a problem where I could only get the feet to stick with an anasazi on my left foot for a poor smear and an evolv oracle on my right foot for a small pocket as its very pointy shoe (which doesn't smear well). A more skilled operator than myself could do it wearing anything but for me this combination made the difference.

I wear the same two shoes the other way round for another boulder I'm currently working and the difficult move goes from being extremely low percentage to going nearly every time.

I have a pair of sportiva genius shoes and find the no edge to be critical in some circumstances. The dragons are the one shoe I haven't had a critical usage for yet! 

 krikoman 05 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

>  A more skilled operator than myself could do it wearing anything but for me this combination made the difference.

That's partly my point, you end up relying on equipment and losing out on technique, it's like when people start training, they nearly always start doing pull up and arm training, which ends up ruining their footwork.

Still each to their own, I climb quite differently to a lot of peole on here, I can't be arsed  with red-pointing, I don't use chalk, and I'm not interested in painful shoes.*

* All possible reasons for me not pushing into leading 7s and 8s grades, but there again, I'm not that bothered about numbers either.

2
 krikoman 05 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

I think simply changing away from Jokers will help, for me they are too stiff, and to random, my old Mad Rock Frenzy's are away getting new soles of C4 rubber.

These are a great combo of lots of friction, not too thin (Red Chilli's are too thin and painful), and flexible.

Glad you got sorted and you're happy, shoes are always going to be a personal thing.

What usually happens in my case, I find a perfect shoe, and then they stop making them, hence my 2007 set of Frenzy's are still with me. Previous to them I love 5.10 Ascents ( again out of production)

1
 Liamhutch89 05 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> That's partly my point, you end up relying on equipment and losing out on technique, it's like when people start training, they nearly always start doing pull up and arm training, which ends up ruining their footwork.

Ondra's technique didn't seem so bad when he used training and odd shoes to get up Silence 9c.*

I think leveraging as much benefit from shoes as you're willing to pay for or put up with is fair game, otherwise you'd have to climb in trainers to consider it 'not relying on equipment'.

*In no way whatsoever am I comparing myself to Ondra

Post edited at 11:25
 HeMa 05 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

9c is a bit harder than the level of mid 7 boulder. (afaik Silence had the crux of high 8 boulder problem).

So as said, there have benefits, but they aren't as drastic up to the level of what I mentioned.

 Liamhutch89 05 Mar 2020
In reply to HeMa:

The benefit IS drastic even in the lowly 7's, demonstrable by the fact I can do the move in one shoe and not in another. Don't you think the level where 'performance shoes' come into necessity is relative to ones current ability?

If a climber's best effort to date is f6B and they are now projecting f7A, they might find it impossible without the right shoes, whereas it might be easy wearing anything to you and I!

If you're AO projecting 9c then you might also need specific shoes, but the gold medalist of the 2040 olympics might campus it. 

 HeMa 05 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

Is it really the shoe, or your skills to use the shoe?

As said, if you don't trust the shoe, the move won't go.

And as I pointed out, my personal best is 7B+ and a few 7Bs. I've climbed some of the 7Bs and numerous 7A/+s in my "comfy" shoes. And heck, I've gotten pretty much rid of the über tight shoes. So even my performance oriented shoes are comfy. It's just that I'm weak (as Lattice assessment clearly showed), but I'm also happy with the performance the comfy shoes I use provide and also trust them.

No can I climb harder, I kind of doubt that (I'm too weak) and it ain't the shoes that are holding me back.

It's already written above... put really up to low to mid 7s, the shoe is hardly the culprit for failure (exceptions do exist, e.g. small pockets -> pointy shoe). Even for a person climbing 6B and aiming to get up a low 7A. It's all about skill and trust on the footwear.

People have been praising the tight performance shoe -mantra for god know how long (numerous articles here as well). So people take it at face value that it is the only way... Nope, can they help. Yeah, but less than people seem to think (even for n00bs just getting into climbing). I've seem some young lads climb properly hard stuff in crappy rentals on their first outings... technical slab 6Cs), are these lads gifted, you bet... but they also operate without the burden of tight shoes are needed -mantra and perform well regardless.

 krikoman 05 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

> Ondra's technique didn't seem so bad when he used training and odd shoes to get up Silence 9c.*

And you don't think he's had years of experience? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this statement. The OP said they haven't been climbing for that long, and are climbing 6C.

> I think leveraging as much benefit from shoes as you're willing to pay for or put up with is fair game, otherwise you'd have to climb in trainers to consider it 'not relying on equipment'.

That is obviously your choice. I did climb in trainers for the first six months, then wasted money on shoes that were too tight, people are finally waking up to the idea that tight shoes don't a climber make. I'd go so far as to suggest you issues with comfortable shoes is either the rubber, or a psychological one, not one of fit.

> *In no way whatsoever am I comparing myself to Ondra

But you are suggesting if you want to be like Ondra you can't do it in comfy shoes.

I'm not really sure I want to be like Ondra, for one thing.

If I cared that much I'd train, I'd warm up and down, I'd use chalk, I work on my core strength (whatever that is), I'd do gym work, I'd do yoga and I'd work on my balance, and I'd cram my feet into uncomfortable shoes. But I'd rather just get on with climbing.

Anyhow, I think we've gone around in circles for a while now, the OP has made their choice, and you're happy cramming you feet into small shoes, I'm happy not to.

Cheers.

Post edited at 13:01
3
 misterb 05 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Ha ha

What a load of utter bo***ocks

A rock shoe from 2007 eh 

Must of seen a lot of action then!!!!!!!!

I've been through 30 + different pairs in that time and am  always finding something new and interesting about the different styles of shoe i try and making improvements to my `technique`

The idea of a well fitting and tight shoe being the best for performance is undeniable 

To make the most of your footwork is impossible unless you eliminate any movement so therefore wearing a`comfy shoe` doesn't improve technique at all if anything it just forces you to pull harder as you are not translating force and body weight to your feet and lower leg muscles / core effectively.

Please don't join into another thread about someone who is asking advice on sizing of a technical shoe telling them that they don't need one as they aren't climbing hard enough(inference) as you don't have the requisite experience in this field

 krikoman 06 Mar 2020
In reply to misterb:

> Ha ha

> What a load of utter bo***ocks

In your opinion.

> A rock shoe from 2007 eh 

Correct

> Must of seen a lot of action then!!!!!!!!

Correct (that's two things right so far)

> I've been through 30 + different pairs in that time and am  always finding something new and interesting about the different styles of shoe i try and making improvements to my `technique`

Bravo for you, maybe you foot work is shit and you're wearing them out because of it.

> The idea of a well fitting and tight shoe being the best for performance is undeniable 

There's a world of difference between well fitting and too tight or too big.

> To make the most of your footwork is impossible unless you eliminate any movement so therefore wearing a`comfy shoe` doesn't improve technique at all if anything it just forces you to pull harder as you are not translating force and body weight to your feet and lower leg muscles / core effectively.

You're assuming that comfy can't be well fitting, a common mistake, I'll grant you. You seem to have assumed a lot in this post, for instance, that I only have one pair of shoes, or a pair of shoe can't be re-soled a number of times, so if I have three pairs and I've had them re-soled 10 times each, I've magically matched your 30+ pairs*, but let's not bring logic into it eh?

> Please don't join into another thread about someone who is asking advice on sizing of a technical shoe telling them that they don't need one as they aren't climbing hard enough(inference) as you don't have the requisite experience in this field

I'll post where I like, thanks very much. I only offered my opinion, the OP is free to either take that or not, same as your opinion, remember opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one.

You do seem very angry that someone's opinion doesn't match yours, or to be more accurate, doesn't match your assumptions, maybe you need to read a little more carefully.

* I haven't had them re-soled 10 time, something like 3.

5
 Liamhutch89 06 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> And you don't think he's had years of experience? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this statement. The OP said they haven't been climbing for that long, and are climbing 6C.

You made the comment that utilising different shoes was "relying on equipment and losing out on technique". I disproved this by using the best climber in the world with arguably the best technique as an obvious high profile example.

At more pedestrian grades this doesn't suddenly change - you're technique doesn't go to sh1t by wearing specific shoes for a specific foothold which was my initial point (rather than specific shoe for a specific grade), e.g. use a soft shoe for smearing, stiff shoe for edging, a pointy shoe for pockets, a downturned shoe for edging on 45 degree overhangs.  

Also stating that people "start doing pull up and arm training, which ends up ruining their footwork." is barely worthy of a response. 

> That is obviously your choice. I did climb in trainers for the first six months, then wasted money on shoes that were too tight, people are finally waking up to the idea that tight shoes don't a climber make. I'd go so far as to suggest you issues with comfortable shoes is either the rubber, or a psychological one, not one of fit.

I respect that you can climb in whatever you want to climb in. I wouldn't wear an extremely uncomfortable shoe either (after breaking in). I can keep all of my climbing shoes on for over an hour, but they are all tight. A shoe that isn't tight simply won't work on, for example, a critical high-tension heel hook at your limit.

> But you are suggesting if you want to be like Ondra you can't do it in comfy shoes.

No I didn't suggest that, I made no comment on comfort. I will say that if you want to be like Ondra you will never do it in shoes that aren't tight fitting. Note: these could still be comfortable to you, which is relative. 

 HeMa 06 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

> You made the comment that utilising different shoes was "relying on equipment and losing out on technique". I disproved this by using the best climber in the world with arguably the best technique as an obvious high profile example.

You seem to also forget the fact, that the harder the climb, the more the equipment/gear matters.

No, visit your local indoor bouldering gym and climb a vertical ~F4 (so jugs gallore), do it in your performance shoes and then in Crocs? Not much difference.

The same thing certainly goes up to mid 7s. Most of the time, the holds are more than big enough for pretty much any well fitting shoe. There certainly are exceptions (small pockets -> pointy shoe required), but they are the exception not the rule (unless you only boulder in pocketed limestone a'la Frankenjura or cogloremete (sp?)).

 timparkin 06 Mar 2020
In reply to HeMa:

> You seem to also forget the fact, that the harder the climb, the more the equipment/gear matters.

> No, visit your local indoor bouldering gym and climb a vertical ~F4 (so jugs gallore), do it in your performance shoes and then in Crocs? Not much difference.

> The same thing certainly goes up to mid 7s. Most of the time, the holds are more than big enough for pretty much any well fitting shoe. There certainly are exceptions (small pockets -> pointy shoe required), but they are the exception not the rule (unless you only boulder in pocketed limestone a'la Frankenjura or cogloremete (sp?)).

It's also worth bearing in mind that strong fingers can transfer weight away  from your shoes. 

e.g. Magnus Mitbo can campus 7b easily, Stefano Ghisolfi can campus 8a+ so they could do the same in wellies or high heels. I think I would need to use my feet.

There's obviously a grey area then - when you're climbing at your limit on small holds (slab/vert) then shoes make a difference. Possibly on overhangs they  start to make a different when you really need to pull in with your toes. 

In summary, if you're climbing at your limit on small holds you probably need well fitting shoes which support an edge, if you're climbing at your limit overhung where you need to toe in you probably need to  have  a flexible midsole, if you're climbing at your limit on slopey slabs you probably need something with stick.

If you're climbing the same climbs with a few grades in hand (either because you're strong, skilled or because you can't be bothered to climb harder stuff) then shoes don't matter as much.

Tim 

Post edited at 10:46
OP 12Holds 06 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

*picks up Dragons and slowly slips out of the door*

 krikoman 06 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

> You made the comment that utilising different shoes was "relying on equipment and losing out on technique". I disproved this by using the best climber in the world with arguably the best technique as an obvious high profile example.

I was trying to point out that for a beginner, or even intermediate climber, it's unlikely to make much difference, and since most of us have a finite amount of money and time we can devote to climbing, then when don't "need" such extravagances of three pair of shoes for a particular route, it might be better to have a comfy pair and climb more.

> Also stating that people "start doing pull up and arm training, which ends up ruining their footwork." is barely worthy of a response. 

Point 6 - https://www.climber.co.uk/training-how-to/training/15-training-tips-for-beg...

> I respect that you can climb in whatever you want to climb in. I wouldn't wear an extremely uncomfortable shoe either (after breaking in). I can keep all of my climbing shoes on for over an hour, but they are all tight. A shoe that isn't tight simply won't work on, for example, a critical high-tension heel hook at your limit.

If your are at your limit then it's pretty obvious something is going to give, whether it's your fingers or your feet, otherwise it would be a limit would it?

I can keep mine shoes on for 8 hours, they're not slack, sloppy, flippers, they are comfortable snug fitting shoes, not tight, because they don't need to be tight for the grades I'm climbing.

> No I didn't suggest that, I made no comment on comfort. I will say that if you want to be like Ondra you will never do it in shoes that aren't tight fitting. Note: these could still be comfortable to you, which is relative. 

Then why do you automatically suggest that my shoes, because they are comfortable, are too slack? What you written makes no sense, you seem to be saying, and I might be wrong, that comfy = slack, and that tight<>well fitting.

Anyhow, like I said earlier, the OP asked for suggestions, they've had a few, they can make their own minds up. You can climb in shoes you can only stand for an hour, I can climb in shoes I can wear all day. Who's getting the most out of it, probably both of us.

 Tim Sparrow 06 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

I’m with you on this krikoman. Whilst I agree that tight fitting technical shoes can certainly enhance the grade you can climb, it doesn’t necessarily make them better. 

I bought a pair of old style Jokers for a song recently. They are comfy, I can wear them for several pitches without wincing, I can climb not far from my top grade in them, but most importantly I have enjoyed climbing in them far more than my numerous other pairs (at the wall and the crag). They certainly haven’t held me back. That makes them better for me - all depends what you want to get out of climbing I suppose.

 krikoman 06 Mar 2020
In reply to 12Holds:

> *picks up Dragons and slowly slips out of the door*


Enjoy, please don't forget to come back and tell us how you get on with them. There'll always be someone to tell you where you're going wrong, even if you totally happy with them. As always UKC has all the answers you could ever possibly want, and some you might not. I think you'll find them better than the Jokers, but there again I've never climbed in unpredictable shoes before. It does add a certain spice to a days climbing.

Happy Climbing

 krikoman 06 Mar 2020
In reply to Liamhutch89:

> No I didn't suggest that, I made no comment on comfort. I will say that if you want to be like Ondra you will never do it in shoes that aren't tight fitting. Note: these could still be comfortable to you, which is relative. 

Something I missed earlier.

Why go to the extremes to try and prove a point, Ondra and trainers, neither of these make any sense to someone who's only recently started climbing?

Do you not agree that for someone new to the sport, actually climbing pain-free and enjoying it, is more important than whether their shoe will fail on a 7b+ heal hook?

 krikoman 06 Mar 2020
In reply to timparkin:

> If you're climbing the same climbs with a few grades in hand (either because you're strong, skilled or because you can't be bothered to climb harder stuff) then shoes don't matter as much.

> Tim 

Or you can climb at your limit and still be comfortable.

If I climb outside, I don't take multiple pairs of shoe, I can't afford them and I couldn't be arsed to carry them with me anyhow, and I'm unlikely to know which type of shoe I'm going to need.

So from my perspective,  a comfy shoe that I know and trust is my best option. I find psychology much more of an issue, so much so I lead a 6b and a 6b+ first and second route at a crag, I'm convinced it was because I thought I was climbing two 6as.

Like I said each to their own and people are free to do what they like. It's all down to what you want to get out of climbing.

I like to climb near to my limit, for as long as possible, it's my body that give out first not my equipment.

Most of all I like to have a laugh.

 HeMa 06 Mar 2020
In reply to timparkin:

That is absolutely true...

If yer strong (I'm not), then you can just power your way past... In stuff that has holds and is near vertical or steeper...

Not the case on a slab with no real holds... That is where the trust in ones shoe/feet makes the difference. And like I posted numerous times above already, I can climb close to my physical limit on relaxed and comfortable shoes (on pretty much all kinds of angles, from slab to roof). It's not because I'm strong (I ain't, Lattice testing has me as a weakling), but it's because I trust my feet and also the shoe I'm wearing (comfy or precision i.e. painfully tight fit). And I guess m track record of problems and my lack of strength says I have pretty good technique, even despite the few hindrances I have like twice blown knee etc.

 timparkin 06 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Or you can climb at your limit and still be comfortable.

> If I climb outside, I don't take multiple pairs of shoe, I can't afford them and I couldn't be arsed to carry them with me anyhow, and I'm unlikely to know which type of shoe I'm going to need.

> So from my perspective,  a comfy shoe that I know and trust is my best option. I find psychology much more of an issue, so much so I lead a 6b and a 6b+ first and second route at a crag, I'm convinced it was because I thought I was climbing two 6as.

> Like I said each to their own and people are free to do what they like. It's all down to what you want to get out of climbing.

> I like to climb near to my limit, for as long as possible, it's my body that give out first not my equipment.

> Most of all I like to have a laugh.

Ah but how do you know good tight shoes wouldn't help if you don't persevere with them and try hard. Your body might give out later if you can get more weight on your toes

I personally like a tight but comfortable shoe that I can wear on trad and I'm just starting to climb in the 7s. My Maestro Mid are a good, comfortable ish, and I can do most stuff on them (not so great for slopy slab and I'm not good enough at overhangs to notice any difference with downturned shoes).

It sounds to me like the truth is somewhere in between - i.e. good, well fitting, tight shoes can give you an advantage but it's diminishing returns past a certain point and if you want to enjoy your climbing, you'll be able to get close to (but perhaps not at) your limit in comfy(ish) shoes. 

It's down to personal physiology too - some people can get shoes that fit 100% perfectly and which spread the tightness across their foot. Some people can't 'knuckle' their big toes (I find it hard). Some people have flexible toes and can go really tight in ballet dancer like shoes. 

 krikoman 06 Mar 2020
In reply to timparkin:

> Ah but how do you know good tight shoes wouldn't help if you don't persevere with them and try hard. Your body might give out later if you can get more weight on your toes

I know because, I wouldn't persevere, I know this for a fact, I wouldn't climb in pain not even a little bit, I don't see the point. To be honest, I'm not that bothered about climbing 7a and above, if I was that bothered I dare say I'd use chalk first of all, but I can't even be arsed to do that, and that' a painless option.

So I push my limit with the tools I have available and enjoy what I can achieve.

I could always loose some weight too but that would also spoil my enjoyment, of beer, curries, and cake. I could train also, but it wouldn't be what I'd enjoy, so what's the point? Unless you're are actually chasing numbers. I can understand it if you're only able to climb under 5s because you're then limited on what's available, there's plenty of stuff for me to go at, either indoors or outside, without having to repeat previous climbs.

 HeMa 06 Mar 2020
In reply to timparkin:

> Ah but how do you know good tight shoes wouldn't help if you don't persevere with them and try hard. Your body might give out later if you can get more weight on your toes


because I used to use really tight well fitting shoes (in fact still have them at the back of the closet) and actually still occasionaly use them. And as I’ve said before, for me the difference is next to Nothing. In fact as I climb more these days in them comfy shoes I trust them more so I climb harder in them. 

 gazhbo 06 Mar 2020

> * I haven't had them re-soled 10 time, something like 3.

Are they the Trigger’s broom of climbing shoes?

 timparkin 10 Mar 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> So I push my limit with the tools I have available and enjoy what I can achieve.

and there's the rub - it's all personal

 timparkin 10 Mar 2020
In reply to HeMa:

> because I used to use really tight well fitting shoes (in fact still have them at the back of the closet) and actually still occasionaly use them. And as I’ve said before, for me the difference is next to Nothing. In fact as I climb more these days in them comfy shoes I trust them more so I climb harder in them. 

Completely agree... so far. We'll see how things progress though, you never know.

 krikoman 10 Mar 2020
In reply to timparkin:

> and there's the rub ...

If there's a rub, then I'd change my shoes

youtube.com/watch?v=Lb8QkUemXiM&

"Climb a lot", "in the early phase of your climbing journey, you want to accumulate as much mileage as you can", wise words, something I was suggesting you can't do if you're in pain.

Post edited at 12:48

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