UKC

Of all public places, a climbing wall would be high on the list - although still below public toilets - of places to avoid for germophobes. High-contact surfaces in the form of hand and foot holds are subject to thousands of fondles and smears during their typical life-cycle of many weeks - sometimes months - in a setting rotation, before being stripped and cleaned. The ongoing spread of the novel coronavirus - or COVID-19 - is understandably a cause for concern for climbers using indoor walls, but how big is the risk and what can we do to minimise transmission and keep walls running?

Great article, Natalie. 
 

I can’t decide whether or not to fly to Japan on Friday. On the one hand, I really don’t want to get stuck on the other side of the world if the UK goes into lockdown. On the other, when will I ever get to climb the granite spires of Mizugaki if not now?! Aaarrghh

OMG - really Corona Virus and what to do at the local wall to prevent the spread of infection!! Do we write long articles regarding the spread of seasonal flu, Norovirus, sickness and diarrhoea bugs, hepatitis etc etc. Sorry to be a non sensationalist but perhaps we should cover the holds in toilet paper soaked hand sanitizer just a a precautionary measure!!!

"Wash their holds on a monthly basis"

You are being very generous there. 

The climbers themselves may not be at risk from the affects of Corona Virus but elderly people in the community are, and it could be passed on to them. It's not sensationalist to expect people to take precautions so that vulnerable people in their community don't die. It's proven to be more contagious and more dangerous than all the things you have listed above....

Yeah I get where you're coming from too, but as it's a new bug there isn't any immunity yet out in the herd of society, so it moves fast to where it can do a lot of damage. I think that's the reason to take more communal responsibility, but without doing daft things with no science behind them.  

The reason this is so serious is because idiots like you just don't get it.

Damn good and timely article. Thanks.

Does anybody know what effect, if any, chalk has on the likelihood of virus traces to be passed via climbing holds? Seems to me that its alkali nature could offer a significant barrier to transmission but as I have no expertise in such matters I'd be keen to hear whether this hunch is supported by plausible theory.

Is there enough to go at there for a couple of months?

Depends on whether you are talking about rock, or the £ in my bank account. Former: yes. Latter: not a chance!

Dr O'Neill is already looking into it! Also liquid chalk, since it contains alcohol/some of the same ingredients as hand gel. 

I'd be fascinated to know the answer -- I couldn't find out from a casual Google whether liquid chalk typically has a high enough alcohol percentage to be useful (obviously alcohol-free or low-alcohol ones don't).

Great motivation to work on clipping technique that does not involve biting the rope

Thanks for the article!

It might have a high enough percentage, but it evaporates away so quickly on warm hands I'm not sure how effective it would be if its effectiveness depends on duration of exposure.

Great article

I can't bring myself to sing Miley Cyrus, I hope that's not an essential component to making the hand washing regime 'work' properly.

Didn't realise she had tweeted about the same song, The Climb: https://twitter.com/MileyCyrus/status/1237425116197220353/photo/1

Coincidence!

That's hilarious, maybe she's going to get a significant bump in record sales and income from streaming services!

Death stalks the (Singaporean) climbing walls.

https://www.straitstimes.com/sport/coronavirus-covid-19-case-linked-to-gyms...

Somewhat pedantic note, but, this being the internet, the official name for the virus is SARS-CoV-2. COVID-19 is the term for the disease caused by the virus.

The weak link is going to be the punters.

Ever since getting a nastily infected finger following a cut at the wall(*) I have been rather unbritish with people going to the loo in their climbing shoes, now instead of just tutting I actually point out the signs, saying not to do it, to people. The usual response is a blank look of obliviousness.

The other day before I got on the wall I washed my hands (just like the displayed posters said), didn't see anyone else do it although plenty did afterwards, which is telling.

The weak link here is people, the wall is doinging what it can with signage etc but people ignore it.

I was pleased to see that the wall would extend prepaid membership etc for anytime someone had to spend self-isolating.

* Yes I know that probably wasn't why it got infected but it made me think.

Climbing chalk is a base but it is not an alkali as it is not soluble. Bases are substances that can neutralise acids, alkalis are soluble bases that produse hydroxide ions when dissolved in water. All alkalis are bases but not all bases are alkalis. It is the hydroxide ions that give alkalis their caustic properties.

As to liquid chalk, my understanding is that hand sanitisers need to be over 60% alcohol to be effective. What % is liquid chalk?

The best things seems to be the obvious common sense.

Don't go to the wall if you have any symptoms rtc.

Wash hands before and after etc. Just please change out of your effing rock shoes before going into the loos.

Thanks! Have amended and used both terms, with an explanation!

What about the antibacterial qualities of magnesium carbonate!

Have a read they are quite good.

And could blokes not piss on the effing floor in the first place!?!

It is a virus not a bacteria so not likely to have much effect.

Not the same thing, there are anti-bodies to season flu, there are none in the general population to Covid-19.

You are comparing apples and oranges, and it just might be a deadly mistake.

Made you think, what? "I might as well infer it was the wall, or at least the dirty bastards using it!"

Sorry calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate are also both antiviral.

Well maybe a little bit   but mainly how 'good' an environment the wall is for picking infections. As I said I'm not actually claiming thats what happened.

We can dream Mik,e we can dream.

I wasn't aware of this, I know that the oxides and hydroxides are. Which can be made from the carbonates but not the carbonates themselves, do you have a source for this as I would be interested.

A week ago I would have had similar blasé thoughts. So perhaps, Napesneedle1 has not caught up on recent explanations. Yes, climbers are generally healthy and will recover, but this approach will contribute to creating a peak of old and vulnerable people that is beyond the capacity of health services.  Following the advice will slow the spread reduce the peak, and ensure more people can get the help they will need.  We all have a moral responsibility not to contribute to the problem. 

I think part of the problem is what is happening in Italian hospitals has only been registered by those paying attention (even though it happened before in Wuhan).  They are still not yet at the peak but are experiencing hell there.... choosing who will live and die and unable to help anyone properly outside a small minority of the worst affected. There is also a huge knock on effect to other services causing death or far worse outcomes for those whom the hospital would normally save or greatly help (stroke patients in particular). The UK government and media should be highlighting this much more. This is nothing like seasonal flu in terms of hospital impacts: it is far worse and will overwhelm hospitals without fast national action.

The epidemiology coming from China from the start highlighted the higher risks compared  to seasonal flu  (which never completely overwhelms hospital systems). Brits should also realise that we have proportionately about half the ITU resources that Italy have, and are struggling to meet staffing needs in the good times, thanks to austerity. We also have known shortages of protection equipment and can ill afford to infect the health workers we do have; the Milton Keynes guy who sadly died was not diagnosed and caused all the teams that treated him to go into isolation. In this context I'm shocked the government didn't learn from Italy and do more to cut large gatherings yesterday and instead invented the unique science of dealing with British boredom with pandemic control. In contrast the countries in the east (who learnt from facing SARS) have already slowed the virus impact by the fast action we ignored.

Great article! I think we all know that indoor climbing walls are a bit gross but we accept the risks anyway. What concerns me more is the increase I've seen at my gym of people, particularly beginners, going to the toilets in climbing shoes - I feel that's easily avoidable but my gym doesn't have signs for some reason.  

You might spend a couple of hours once a week at a large gathering, but people spend 8 hours a day in close proximity to their work colleagues and even more time with family members at home. 

Hey all- It's been a fast-moving situation, so I can hope that public awareness is catching up. But at this point I would really hope that UKC would agree it's *utterly irresponsible* to promote the continued use of indoor walls. I write this as an obsessed climber and someone who strongly supports climbing-oriented businesses and organisations, but also as a professor with a postgraduate degree in virology who spent over a decade working and publishing in the field of viral epidemiology and evolution. 

I’ll be brief, as I think this should be clear enough by now without a long exposition:

-There are several reasons for concern here: first if not for the sake of unwitting climbers, then for their families and the public. Climbers are fit and heathy but therefore perfect carriers of this tremendously contagious and deadly disease. Please for example see: https://www.newsweek.com/young-unafraid-coronavirus-pandemic-good-you-now-s... 

-In this respect I need to highlight the troubling comment you publish by Dr. O'Neill: "People who go to the gym or climb are likely to be in good health, so even if they do catch coronavirus, chances of having serious symptoms are low - their immune systems are probably up to the task." Aside from the absolutely unsubstantiated nature of that claim (Covid-19 is decimating heathy, fit people too!), please again: understand it’s the asymptomatic carriers that pose the greatest danger to the public and to the spread of the virus. The 4,000 ICU beds available in the UK will not come remotely close to accommodating any realistic projections of the nubers requiring them, even in strongly mitigated viral epidemic peaks. So, we all need to self-isolate now. (Meaning- we can climb outdoors! Just avoid the routes that are getting used every day: recent initial published literature reports Covid-19 virions as infective for only about a day on surfaces.)

-Finally, with no disrespect to Dr. O’Neill, I should note, it’s highly questionable that the author introduces “Dr.” O’Neill as a postdoc in Microbiology, but then extensively quotes the ‘Dr.’ on vitally important (life or death) health advice. Yes, PhDs outside of medicine are commonly called Dr., but in this situation (a global pandemic!) it’s borderline at best to present as an authority.

So, please, UKC, I hope you will agree this article should come down immediately. The information in it is outdated and dangerous in the face of an unprecedented global pandemic that by all reasonable projections will kill 10-100’s of thousands to tens of millions, including people we all know and love.

Thank you,

Levi Yant

Associate Professor of Evolutionary Genomics

Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences

University of Nottingham

Room B103 Life Sciences Building

University Park

Nottingham, UK NG7 2RD

Thank you for this. I'm sure everyone appreciates the severity of what is developing.

The governments of this world will hopefully be trying to balance the social and economic cost of any measures that are implemented.

All walls seem to be adopting a "we will follow all guidelines and advice" policy. As a rough guess, climbing walls in the UK employ around 10k-40k people. All walls are likely in the planning stages for every scenario. Should walls close to customers it's only a matter of time before walls stop paying staff and then, further on, before they cease to trade in the worst case.

This is a template of what is going on across many industries. If the country were to shutdown for 1, 3, 6 months, how many businesses will still be functioning and how many people will be able to pay their rent/mortgage/bills if there is no work or pay? Some climbing walls may have limited business interruption cover that would support them, but it's currently untested with no precedent.

I fully appreciate the clinical severity of the situation, but it isn't as easy as shutting everything down.

- A climbing wall manager with a clinician partner

In France the CAF - Club Alpin Francaise - has chopped all club activities - incl indoor wall meets on their own network of walls - until 5th April - to be reviewed.

A responsible move.

Dear tk421,

Hey- Thanks for the reply and I respect your opinion. But these are really tough times and will get a lot tougher.

However, I disagree in the strongest terms with a few things that are crucial here, so I have to reply: no, not everyone appreciates the severely of what is developing. There will be consequences to the Covid-19 pandemic that will have *massive* effects across our society, and indeed, the world.

Please, if you didn’t read it: see the link I included from a doctor who is experiencing what (by all forecasts) clinicians will be facing in the UK in about 10 days (I include it again below my signoff). It’s absolutely horrifying, like nothing seen since 1918, and this is playing out already elsewhere: e.g. see the NYT piece on horror in Seattle, also below. This will happen here, and soon: the increases in cases across the UK is precisely mirroring Lombardy and Wuhan, with only a 10-day delay in (continuously exponential!) occurrence. And the UK is not prepared for it.

The current (absolute outlier) lack of action by the UK government - relative to most countries - is no excuse for not taking responsibility as public citizens. Sadly - and I really do say this with all respect and compassion – I fear this applies whether one’s current income source may be eventually impacted. It sucks. But it’s not responsible to enable infection by staying open, or negligently to act as healthy carriers. All reports indicate infectivity without symptoms one week before and two weeks after any symptoms. You should begin social distancing, and now: this includes, alas, not touching climbing holds. Again, it’s hard to see myself writing that on a UKC forum, but these are exceptional times.

Just as responsible Universities (e.g. my employers, with huge negative economic impacts also) have closed down to in-person classes and congregating students for any reason whatsoever (and this could well go on for a year!): gyms should close as a matter of public safety. I know it may sound crazy to hear. This will happen in the next weeks; it’s just a matter of whether it is done late and grudgingly, as a response to mandate, or instead as collectives quite rightly concerned with public safety in the face of the most serious threat in a century.

And again, promoting the idea that it’s okay to climb in high-density scenarios in the midst of this outbreak is absolute negligence so, I reiterate respectfully: I hope UKC drops this now outdated article.

Finally, I just want to note: as horrifying and tragic as this is, it’s been a phenomenal chance for empathy and heroism already where it has hit. See for example the third article I post (both young, healthy victims, easily climbers). I really hope the same level of compassion is surfaces in the UK and the climbing community. Closing the gyms is just the first step.

Sincerely, and take care.

Levi

https://www.newsweek.com/young-unafraid-coronavirus-pandemic-good-you-now-s...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/coronavirus-kirkland-hospital-seattle...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-death...

Why? At the wall I go to I have seen the toilet floors getting scrubbed every day while the floor of the actual climbing area seems to get a quick brush for chalk dust at the end of the day although the padded floor has all sorts of crevices full of crud, food crumbs and whatever comes in on peoples' feet from outdoors. The worst that you might get on your shoes from the toilets is a bit of pee from puddly bits around the urinals, but I would assume everyone would avoid standing in it anyway (and isn't pee sterile?). 

Edit: I'd be happy to change my opinion on this if given a proper rational argument, rather than what I suspect is just the yuck factor.

I hate to say this and as someone who generally thinks along the lines of "I am all right jack and it will not happen to me " I think that all climbing walls have to shut until this thing is under control.The very nature of climbing (grasping holds, very close facial proximity to holds etc ) it is obvious that there is a high risk of transferring the Corona virus  which may have a  potentially lethal impact on others. We are all in unprecedented territory and we all have to take this situation super serious even if it means we will endure hardship or discomfort.Keeping walls running has to be secondary to keeping people alive.All climbing centres and gyms should be closing as a precaution at the very least.I know there will be people who strongly disagree with my opinion but you only need to look at Italy and Iran to see how bad things can get.There is absolutely no justification  for taking risks as the consequences are deadly. We are a small crowded island and that is why the Corona Virus could go nuclear as they say and that is why we need to treat this situation with the utmost attention.

Every time I go to a climbing wall I always see a male person urinate or come out of the cubicle and leave the toilet without washing their hands.Yes, sometimes with their climbing shoes on spreading theirs and others shit and piss all over the holds. I never say anything because it would probably kick off.Next time I will say something and if it does kick off then bring it on. Inconsiderate apathetic gits who need a good talking to I am afraid. Also climbing centres need to get on this to make the toilet facilities better as sometime they are utterly woeful.They also need to make it abundantly clear of all our responsibilities to each other.Have to say with respect that The Depot at Nottingham is great centre but it has the worst toilet facilities you could imagine. Imagine this... unhygienic and inadequate toilet facilities but we can still open up new climbing centres.Pretty shameful.

There are never any signs, pretty outrageous.

Maybe walls are so flipping grim the virus gets killed by all the other disgusting things that live there.

Is piss actually a problem? Why would shoes have shit on them?

It's a shame this thread is getting derailed talking about piss and shit whilst the worst public health crisis of the past 100 years is ramping up. I'm really surprised at the way so many people seem able to stick their heads in the sand about this if it means they can go on doing the things they enjoy. I understand that for some climbing walls this is an existential crisis but at this point surely it's obvious that they will be probably closing their doors soon, along with most other British businesses, and the socially responsible thing to do would be to do it earlier rather than later.

Yep, I am surprised ours is still open. I left work there on Saturday (having washed my hands but then having to touch door handles on the way out so who knows how much good that will have done) and then had to go to Morrisons on my way home. How many others go straight from the wall to the shop (it's just next door)? And how many actually do wash their hands on the way out? That seems like a huge potential to spread the virus from a non-essential environment into an essential one. Seems daft. 

What an odd comment. It is a clearly an area of concern for some people. Why should it be off limits for discussion? I would have thought that openness is very important in this situation.

I know a couple of people who's mental health will be severely tested if the country is put on lockdown, one of whom will most likely end up on suicide watch. 

Saying people will die if we don't close everything and hide away is to ignore the bigger picture. It's a plan, but only part of a plan and brings its own problems. 

I wonder if there is any possible additive that we could put in our chalk bags that would kill off bugs on holds. Soap powder might work but could have drawbacks too.

I can't compare from experience of the Depot, but I find it pretty grim that for years (actual years) the Kendal wall urinals have just had metal buckets put under them rather than just fixing the f'ing plumbing.

Seems obvious that any amount of faecal mater would be a problem.I read somewhere that there is a high percentage of climbers at climbing walls with faecal deposits on their hands and shoes. That isn't just unhygienic but potentially unhealthy too.

My daughter works at a climbing wall and she gave me a bottle of liquid chalk which contains alcohol.

I suspect that would be better than using dry chalk.

Haven't had a chance to try it out yet and to be honest I probably won't now given that my parents may be on lock down soon and i may have to take supplies to them.

Not anymore

I read your comments and I want to ask one thing - the government it taking advice from the countries top medical officers, so why should we not trust it? 

Doctors/medical staff for years have complained that the government does not listen, and now in the time of crisis, the government have put the experts in to guide the response, and everybody is saying we should overrule their decision making / guidance?

I missed the bit where the government said we should all go climbing

There is of course a solution to this - drytooling. 

It shouldn't be off limits to discussion. It is however irrelevant to the pandemic which is sweeping through our society and which the original article was about.

I won't be going to the wall for the foreseeable but I'll keep my monthly subscription going. It's in my own interest that they stay afloat anyway!

I'd happily pay ten times my subscription for the duration if it guaranteed the difference between staying afloat and going under!

So does the new government announcement tell us not to go to the wall (as opposed to people's opinions on whether we ought to go to the wall)?

Boris Johnson has just asked people to work from home where they possibly can, and avoid pubs, clubs, theatres and social venues. I would count climbing walls very much as a social venue, and will therefore not visiting them for the foreseeable future.

I think the latest announcement means we probably should not... 

I'm quite surprised that considering your 'debate' with whats-his-name on the other thread about the speed and danger of spread that you don't think he gets, that you are so keen on going to the wall still!

I was asked to help out by a mutual friend with a read-through and a bit of editing of an article from Levi - who posted above on this thread. It is with UKC now and I believe will be published shortly. Levi, as a keen climber including indoors and as a professor of evolutionary genomics with a background of work in virology - argues its a genuinely bad idea to go to the wall now and the walls should close for the time being. My friend who climbs with Levi, and is also an assistant professor (although in another branch of bio-sciences), impressed on me how important he thought this message was, and if Tony says he is 100% convinced that Levi is right, then that's good enough for me.

I think we can take it from the PM it's now government policy too.

That thread was started as a dicussion on epidemiology and modelling, so my approach to it was really a sort of "academic" discussion about the spread of the virus and the mathematics of it with my own interest coloured by the fact that I'm maths teacher, so I was genuinely interested in the understanding of exponential growth and the graphical illustration of it. So I wasn't trying to preach to anyone about what they should be doing or trying to convince them how serious things are - just what the graphs and so on actually showed.

As for the wall, I'm not going - it's clearly not what we should be doing now.

I would prefer something more unequivocal from the government though; singling out pubs, clubs and theatres and social venues could be interpreted as leaving the door open to the wall - yes, the wall is a sociable (and that aspect of it is very important to me) but it is not primarily a social venue. Perhaps they should have said all venues where people come together or some such and given a wider range of examples including, say, gyms*. I imagine there are many, many other groups of people having similar discussions about whether the announcement covers their own activities.

*

My impression is that the Government is drifting towards people staying at home but it doesn't want to a) have to enforce it (yet) and b) give the impression that EU countries are doing a better job than we are.

Given that they have specifically called out exercise as as *reason* to go out, this probably does require more expert advice.

Going for a run or walk with someone from the same household or alone is probably most sensible.

Yes, we were just discussing that. Not that I want to defend Johnson, but I think it was just a time issue - he picked the biggies and listed them. He didn't have time to say climbing walls, bowling alleys, karate dojos, yoga studios ad infinitum.

I think the exercise bit means going for a walk or jog on your own. I did wonder if Boris had perhaps failed to realise not everyone has a country estate to stroll around where you just need to make sure you don't bump into the keeper and the peasants are all miles away!

 I am closing this thread now. Future discussion can take place on the new more up-to-date thread

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/climbing_wall_use_during_the_covid-19...

Thanks for your contributions so far.

Alan