Here's the rules:
Trad routes in England and Wales only (because I have not done enough in Scotland to comment - possibly a separate thread).
Starting with mod, what is the best route you have climbed at that grade. Include a link to the route in the logbooks.
You can either suggest a better route at a grade that has already been covered or go up by one grade.
The following "dubious" grades can be missed out: Hard Diff, Hard V Diff, Mild Severe, Mild VS.
I'll start with Pinnacle Ridge (Grade-3) OK the logbooks give it grade 3 scramble, but I reckon that's Moderate.
So the next route has to be a better mod (in your opinion) or your best Diff.
I love threads like this
My favourite Mod is the Person arête
Best Diff has to be Tower Ridge!
I’ll pass on votes for best VDiffs. I’m going to chuck Bowfell Buttress into the hat
Diff - Black Slab (D)
Cneifion Arete (D) for me. All the good hallmarks of an easy route - longish, exposed and easy enough to solo up at speed in the middle of a run.
I'd probably agree with you with Tower Ridge, but it's not allowed in the rules (Scotland). Person Arete is great too.
If it's not disqualified by being in Scotland, you're going to struggle to come up with a Moderate to top the Dubh Slabs.
At HVS I nominate the Concrete Chimney / DoWH link-up.
EDIT: Oops. I hadn't realised we were working up the grades in sequence.
Again, a bit off-topic, but I would choose East Buttress on Beinn Eighe over Tower Ridge. Tower Ridge is great but has quite a bit of walking and scrappy ground on it. East Buttress is sustained and on brilliant rock throughout. Also, the summer approach to East Buttress is far more enjoyable than the approach to Tower Ridge!
Diff - Corvus
I would struggle to pin it down to one route. Sometimes it's not the quality of the route as such, although that has to play a part, it's more the mood and company of the day. At other times it's the sheer relief of getting up it at all. Routes that you have coveted for a long time are especially satisfying when you eventually have the skill and strength to climb them and this may not have anything to do with it's quality per se.
Al
I know the best. V diff should be 3+ pitches, but the actual answer is
if I have to choose a longer route then it will have to be Grooved Arête (HVD 4a)
Main Wall (HS 4b) on Cyrn Las is very good in my opinion, the best HS
Ah yes my mistake
HS: Tophet Wall edges it for me over main wall
VS: Eliminate A
I always took New West Climb (VD) to be Hard Diff but since it's gone up half a grade I'll vote for that. Great variety of climbing in unbeatable location.
> I always took New West Climb (VD) to be Hard Diff but since it's gone up half a grade I'll vote for that. Great variety of climbing in unbeatable location.
Is that the one with the stomach traverse and exposed last pitch? We were half way up during the eclipse 20 years ago!
I think the best mod is Martello Cracks at Stanage. It's actually continous climbing with no ledges. It has moves that follow on one from the other rather than just stepping from ledge to ledge which must be rare for a mod.
I cant remember a stomach traverse but the top pitch is superbly exposed.
> HS: Tophet Wall edges it for me over main wall
I haven't done Main Wall, but Tophet Wall is astounding for the territory it goes up at the grade. Gets my vote.
I'll dig out the guide later, there's a route with a fantastic stomach traverse, very 'traditional'
I think Clogwyn Y Person arete (starting up the nose) is better than the Cneifion.
New West Climb (VD) definitely for the best V Diff.
Another vote for Tophet Wall (HS 4b) Just beats Main Wall.
Sea Mist (HS 4a) has my HS vote.
and of similar style (minus the sea exposure) Botterill's Slab (VS 4c) for VS
Is it not VD that way? (Best VD for me is an altogether different Welsh arête - Table Direct (VD))
Tophet Wall is one of the very few classics that I have not done. I was saving it for my dotage. Guess what? My dotage appears to have arrived I'm looking forward to doing it in the not too distant future pandemics allowing.
Al
In reply to
> Main Wall (HS 4b) on Cyrn Las is very good in my opinion, the best HS
^^^^^ I would agree with this ^^^^
Only relevantguide I have these days is a HM Kelly 1935 , almost too precious to open.
However, it mentions a traverse wthout calling it a stomach traverse. Gives it a pitch to itself, 15 feet.
11 pitches in total, the upper slab pitch being longest. 50 ft of rope required. I assume they used waistlines and didn't waste valuable length by tying a bowline around their middles.
The only genuine stomach traverse I can remember is Sweatyman at Shooters Nab. One to remember.
Always an impossible question but since there’s not much else to do...
Another vote for Clogwyn y Person Arete.
A vote for Bosigran (Commando) Ridge at V Diff.
At HS, I’d go for The Devil's Slide (HS 4a) as it’s such a unique feature and Lundy is an amazing place. Main Wall is good and is a route finding masterpiece but it lacks consistent quality, though perhaps that’s inevitable for a long mountain route like that. Doorpost is also a contender. Not done Tophet Wall.
I think I'd put it at about (old fashioned) Diff, or maybe Hard Diff. I soloed it when I was going confidently. I remember there were lots of small holds but it was very sustained at its standard ... whatever that was (It was about 40 years ago!)
OK so far we have (ignoring anything Scotish):
Diff Black Slab (D)
V Diff Heaven Crack (VD)
Severe
Tophet Wall (HS 4b) (Gets my vote at this grade)
VS Eliminate 'A' (VS 4c) (The best VS I've climbed too.)
Botterill's Slab (VS 4c) (Been on my "to do" list for over 40 years...)
So folks, votes on the above?
Also you have not been playing to the rules - note the glaring absence of any severes.
HS seems to be very popular - I reckon that this is THE quality grade for old bumblies like me...
We're going to be in trouble when we get on to VS, because it's a very crowded grade for excellence. But if we allow the separate grade of MVS, then Moss Ghyll Grooves (VS 4c) takes the prize for me.
Yep! Second that for Table Direct and Cyfrwy Arete. I find the pitch after Table Gap on the arete as good/better/harder than the Direct pitches.Superb location and the bonus of a summit finish. Looking at it longingly this morning...
'The only genuine stomach traverse I can remember is Sweatyman at Shooters Nab. One to remember.'
What about the stomach traverse on Mystery Buttress at Widdop finished by an awkward pull up on the 'bulls horns' a unique move at only V Diff.
Yes, now you mention it, but that was a very long time ago. What a fine piece of rock!
This is going to require some serious thought... And I don't agree with missing out so-called "dubious" grades... There's no need for these efforts toward homogenisation!
Based only on climbs I've done...
Mod: Pinnacle Ridge (but... I'm sure there are better in Wales... Cneifion Arete?)
Diff: Giant's Crawl is thoroughly excellent
VDiff: Bowfell Buttress (it's not HS), possibly followed by Lover's Leap Chimney (VD 4b) at Brimham (VDiff 4b!?)
HVD: Grooved Arete, hands down.
MS: Oxford and Cambridge Direct Route (S 4a)!!
Severe: Dental Slab (S 4a) is a contender for best pitch of Severe in England, but I'd suggest Troutdale Pinnacle (S) as the best Severe overall, with Murray's Route a close second.
HS: Probably Tophet Wall or Main Wall, but I've sadly had the pleasure of neither of these, so how about either Napes Needle or The Cracks (HS 4c)?
MVS (the classic Cumbrian grade UKC/Rockfax has scandalously tried to abolish): Asterisk (VS 4b), Digitation (VS 4c) or perhaps Fortiter (VS 4b)?
VS: I've not had the pleasure of Eliminate A, but there are many great ones, including Original Route (VS 5a) on the Idwal Slabs, Haste Not (VS 4c), Lighthouse Arete (VS 4b) (for the position) and Direct Route (VS 5b) for the sandbag final pitch. I really struggle to pick a favourite, but perhaps Haste Not.
HVS: Laugh Not (HVS 5b) and Golden Slipper (HVS 5a) are really good, but my favourite is Milestone Buttress Superdirect (HVS 5a). It's so varied, with a great position, a strong line and really fun climbing. Hollow Earth (HVS 5a) is an underrated classic.
E1: Razor Crack (E1 5b) is brilliant, but (although I've only seconded them), Whit's End Direct (E1 5b) or Aaros (E1 5b) might be my favourite E1s. I'm only just getting into this grade, though, so I'm sure there are plenty of others.
Above that, I've only seconded, so I'll leave that to others.
Isn't little Chamonix a stomach traverse?
South Face Direct and Little Brown Jug contenders at VS.
For V Diff I’d go with bramble buttress
One of the best things about Lundy is that you could probably field a contender at each grade up to E4 on 3 x 1/2 mile island.
> South Face Direct and Little Brown Jug contenders at VS.
Diocese is also a cracker.
Best VD is little chamonix, but then I'm somewhat biased because it was my first multipitch lead 2 or 3 years ago.
Engineers Slab on Gable at VS... Kipling Groove on Gimmer at HVS... and at E1... the Grooves on Cyrn Las...
That would be North Climb (HS)
Agree that Engineer's Slabs is great; couldn't really see what the fuss was about with KG.
I literally can’t chose between these 3 HVS’s
Great Western, Great North Road, Bond Street
At E1 I’ll chuck The Grooves on Cryn Las out there
E2 has to be Left wall
I’m surprised there’s no mention of amphitheatre buttress on the list. Classic mountain v diff. Amphitheatre Buttress (VD)
Diff: Slanting Buttres Ridge Route on Lliwedd traditionally graded at diff but great route up a bloody big cliff
Black slab on Bosigran is class at diff as well.
V Diff: can't argue with Little Chamonix or Commando ridge but Route B at the Dewarstone has the best pitch of vdiff I have ever done with some decent approach pitches as well.
Severe: Crackstone Rib deserves a mention though Troutdale Pinnacle has better climbing though positions prob not as good.
My left field winner is Quadratus Lumborum on Lundy, techy approach slab than superlative and engaging wall to finish.
Hard Severe, managed not to do Main or Tophet Wall so from a my experience a tie between Diedre Sud and Central Groove on the Dewarstone.
VS: prob South Face route at chairladder but wouldn't argue with this being in the HVS cat. The Crack on Gimmer is quality throughout.
Really don't get the fuss about Eliminate A and neither does anyone I know who has done it. I enjoyed it but if you love it I'm not saying your wrong.
HVS: Kipling or Trespasser Groove both stand out. Trespasser longer and more varied, Kipling has the better exposure.
E1 my knowledge drops off but I love corners so Cenotaph for me.
Given the lack of suggestions at Severe, Troutdale Pinnacle (S) is a good shout. I don’t really get the fuss about Crackstone Rib, though it’s nice enough.
Well if you can walk from your house...
In a sort of linked way some friends once discussed the potential of a self powered first orders in one pub to last orders in another via the summit of Cadair from Aberystwyth. Caveat being that whatever assistance you used had to come to the top with you (e.g. a bike). Never actually got attempted though sadly!
Yeah I’d go for one of the Cornwall VSs. May be Diocese (VS 5a) as you’ve suggested.
> How about one of the following at E1
Nah, super direct has one (2/3) good pitch really, the other two are a bit guff. The grooves is much better.
Aura (E2 5b) at E2, The Moon at E3, not sure on an E4 and Poetry Pink at E5 for me moving up the grades!
> I’m surprised there’s no mention of amphitheatre buttress on the list. Classic mountain v diff. Amphitheatre Buttress (VD)
It’s just not as good as Cyfrwy. Can’t place why, and I’ve done both a few times! Maybe because you generally go down to get to the start. At those sort of grades I’m in it for the journey rather than the climbing.
The Grooves (E1 5b) - yeah quite possibly the best E1 I’ve done, though Astral Stroll (E1 5b) is well up there as well.
Not sure about Kipling Groove (HVS 5a) though, it didn’t seem particularly memorable. I think single pitch grit deserves a look in and, as suggested above, Great Western (HVS 5a) is probably the best of the bunch at the grade.
Left Wall (E2 5c) is great but I’d probably go for Resurrection (E4 6a) at E4, which is an even better route for its grade, which suggests going for something else at E2 for variety. Brazen Buttress (E2 5b) or Central Pillar (E2 5b) perhaps but Vector (E2 5c) is more classic and I’d say more interesting / intimidating. It any route at Tremadog deserves to be on the list, I think this would be it.
Now if Ireland were in scope, there are some phenomenal contenders at Fair Head at E2...
> Given the lack of suggestions at Severe, Troutdale Pinnacle (S) is a good shout. I don’t really get the fuss about Crackstone Rib, though it’s nice enough.
That’s probably the best single severe route I’ve done, but enchaining two or three routes to finish on the above-mentioned Oxford and Cambridge Direct is amazing at the grade.
I can’t argue with Vector, but for me Left wall just has everything. Position, moves, protection etc
I climbed it on a perfect April day and did Vector in the afternoon!
Ha! Good idea. Bike to the summit via Llanfihangel path and pint before last orders at the Railway Inn, Abergynolwyn. Go for it!
Amphitheatre Buttress isn’t amazing as you say, there are some great bits but the walk in the middle rather lets it down. Good shout on Aura (E2 5b) with the Pinnaclissima (E2 5c) finish, though I’d probably still go for Vector at E2.
Poetry Pink (E5 6b) - yeah it’s about as good as slabs get but I can’t see it as the best or even one of the best E5s around.
My vote at E5 would be Darkinbad the Brightdayler (E5 6a) and judging by the log book comments I’m not the only one to think it’s one of the best rock routes around. Having said that, there are some very strong contenders on Gogarth Main Cliff (Positron (E5 6a), Citadel (E5 6b), Hunger (E5 6a), Dinosaur (E5 6a), Mammoth (E5 6b) - hard to pick one!) and in Pembroke (Darkness at Noon (E5 6a) would be my choice in the Leap, then there’s Just Klingon (E5 6a) for something a bit steeper), The Lean Machine (E5 6a) is in with a shout and certainly the best of what I’ve done at Swanage up to E5, Pacemaker (E5 6a) is certainly worth a shout as is Supersonic (E5 6a), plus tonnes of classics I haven’t done in the Lakes. A very crowded field!
E3 - The Moon (E3 5c) is a very strong contender as you’ve suggested. Then again, there’s Lubyanka (E3 5c) and The Dream/Liberator (E3 6a). Fay (E4 5c) is probably top of the single pitch list for me and not really E4 if you’re fit!
E4 - Resurrection (E4 6a), single pitch face climbing perfection, actually better than Right Wall as it doesn’t feature party ledges. Bloody Sunday (E4 6a) is in with a shout as well. The Skull (E4 6a) possibly tops the multipitch list at the grade.
No personal experience at E6 and above, hopefully some of the wads will come along shortly. Speaking of which, King Wad (E6 6b) is another one to add to the E5 shortlist and it’s definitely not E6!
... talking of single pitch routes... the other single pitch HVS that is a 'must-do' is Saxon at Karn Kenijack... magnificent...
Lots of people raving about Main Wall (HS 4b) and Tophet Wall (HS 4b) but I found both of them, whilst enjoyable, slightly underwhelming. I think my nominations for best climb at HS would be either Right Angle (HS 4b) or Flannel Avenue (HS 4b).
Yeah I did think of Saxon, as a single pitch route at the grade it’s superb.
I liked Dives etc (HS) and Spiral stairs (Mod I think) on Dinas Cromlech and Arete Chimney & Crack (S I think) on Dow
No doubt about the best single pitch HVS The Corner (HVS 5b)
Unrelenting difficulty until the final haul over the top but superb protection all the way. You know you have been in a battle on this one!
I think I've been confused with North Climb S 4a
Pitch 4 describes a stomach traverse.
youtube.com/watch?v=0VNT0y-zvro&
Oliverson's variation and Lyon's crawl is high on my to do list when we're not grounded.
> Here's the rules:
Include a link to the route in the logbooks.
Sorry to ask stupid question but how do you do this?
HS: Central groove
HVS: Heart of Darkness/New Morning or Braille trail....oh! dosen’t qualify😊
Some years ago On the Edge ran a series looking at the best VS and came up with Suspension flake on Dartmoor (were they taking the piss?). Anyways my money is on Eliminate A.
E1: AstralStroll
E2: Left wall
all these with ? after them as I haven’t done everything!
But that's a hard scramble with one reasonable pitch on it.
I forgot to read the rules carefully and blurted all mine out in one go...
What's the consensus on best VSs and best HVSs? Being the top of the pre-WWII grading system, it'll be controversial... I think there should be one category for single-pitch and one for multipitch. Well done for not mentioning ADoWH yet....!
Yeah I thought it was more interesting than its namesake on the Cromlech but wouldn’t really class either as the best. I’d say Great Western encapsulates grit perfection. Although now that DoWH has been mentioned... that’s got to be better than any single pitch HVS!
For best E1, I'll definitely vote for The Grooves (E1 5b) on Cyrn Las, a fantastic route IMO - in a perfect setting, fairly sustained, interesting climbing throughout, and a great line
Sadly while I thought Coronation Street (WW) (E1 5b) at Cheddar was excellent, even the top pitches don't quite match The Grooves (E1 5b), the setting isn't nearly as good, and the first section is very poor IMO
There are surprisingly low numbers of mentions for routes on either Scafell or Cloggy ... maybe it’s just a reflection of the grade(s) mainly covered in the thread so far
Tophet Wall or Devil's Slide certainly get my vote at HS! Another vote for Lubyanka (E3 5c) at E3.
At E1 another Lundy classic springs to mind The Indy 500 (E1 5b)
> Some years ago On the Edge ran a series looking at the best VS and came up with Suspension flake on Dartmoor (were they taking the piss?).
Possibly not. I must have done thousands of VSs and I remember it as one of the best. Soloing it probably gives an enhanced experience (well, as long as you don't fall off).
For me, it's akin to Heaven Crack (my favourite route of all and, if it's polished now, don't tell me!). Slight but oh so delectable. Size isn't always everything.
Mick
> Fay (E4 5c) is probably top of the single pitch list for me and not really E4 if you’re fit!
Dirty fit wall rats, honestly. You could just as easily say 'not really E4 if you're strong' about a cruxy route. Or 'not really E4 if you can jam' about a crack route. Etc. It's consensus Misha!
Left Wall (E2 5c), The Dream/Liberator (E3 6a), Fay (E4 5c) and Darkinbad the Brightdayler (E5 6a) are my nominations at their respective grades, with the necessary footnote that there are loads of great ones I haven't done.
> Include a link to the route in the logbooks.
> Sorry to ask stupid question but how do you do this?
Either find the climb in the "insert climb" link above the message you are writing or click on the climb in your logbook and copy the web address into your message.
OK, you can have MVS if you want, but honestly what is the difference between MVS and HS? My vague memories from 1975 suggest Moss Ghyll Grooves (VS 4c) is a good shout.
Thanks for that lot, and yes if we're including the "silly grades" Grooved Arête (HVD 4a) would be on my list.
Of those two I'd go for Coronation Street (WW) (E1 5b)
> OK, you can have MVS if you want, but honestly what is the difference between MVS and HS?
Virtually none. More a reflection on the person doing the grading. HS is mean in spirit, MVS is generous.
I really rate Diocese (VS 5a)
Engineer's Slabs (VS 4c) is a good route but sadly I think it has been spoilt by the scratchings of crampon clade winter climbers...
Well I rate Eliminate 'A' (VS 4c) as certainly the best VS I've climbed recently. I really rate Trespasser Groove (E1 5a) (just spotted this is in the logbooks as E1) but my choice at HVS would be Diagonal (HVS 5a)
I found Poetry Pink definitely harder than Resurrection, but it may depend on one's aptitude for different angles.
Found The Skull harder than both, but impinged hips probably did me no favours on that one.
> Given the lack of suggestions at Severe, Troutdale Pinnacle (S) is a good shout.
I agree with that one, excellent route.
At E2, for me, Jelly Roll (E2 5b) . I climbed it in '77 and memories of bridging that groove high above Great Wall are still quite vivid.
Route 1, Upper Scout Crag, Langdale VD
A superb climb with a lovely exposed final pitch which has been described as "one of the finest in the valley"
I'm really struggling to choose at E3. Looking through my logbook Great Slab (E3 5b) West Buttress Eliminate (E3 5c) and Archangel (E3 5b) come to mind.
At E4 I think I'd go for The Axe (E4 6a) and at E5 Strapadictomy (E5 6b) (although it was E4 back then...)
Poetry Pink was definitely given E4 in The Paul Williams and in the Nick Harms guide. A sprinter/doctor as a belayer might save you from the mortuary, but not from the casualty department at Ysbty Gwynedd. Thought it ok at the time. Was climbing on slate a lot and was good on a Slab and a bit piss weak. If any slate route is included, it would have to be Comes the dervish, something on the Rainbow Slab or The Quarryman. Maybe a slate route should be included. It is after all a uniquely British climbing medium.
James
I'm hardly qualified to judge, but....
Terriers Tooth, Chair Ladder.
Ab to start and to finish if you like. Sadly now a different route altogether since it was exfoliated by a storm
As I'm a late comer to the party here are my offerings
North West Arete (VS 4b) (MVS - because if you live in the lakes it is a grade)
This is where my experience ends but I'll continue with routes that catch my eye at each grade
> Route 1, Upper Scout Crag, Langdale VD
> A superb climb with a lovely exposed final pitch which has been described as "one of the finest in the valley"
Hm... In Langdale alone, Bowfell Buttress, Main Wall Climb (VD), Stonechat (VD), Major Slab, Gimmer Chimney (VD), Ash Tree Slabs (VD) and probably several others are better than Route 1. The second pitch up the arete is pleasant (if short-lived), but the first is merely a scramble up a grooved staircase.
Generalising here but I've tended to find HS as technically too hard for S but well protected and/or not sustained, whereas MVS seems to be technically too easy for VS but might still be boldish and/or sustained.
So from that point of view HS & MVS overlap in difficulty but differentiate by "style".
Anyway I'd agree that Moss Ghyll Grooves (VS 4c) is a fine example at the MVS grade - although I remember on the day that I found it just as hard as Botterill's Slab (VS 4c).
I'd agree with you about Eliminate 'A' (VS 4c), but I didn't find Trespasser Groove (E1 5a) groove that great, and I'm surprised to see it going up to E1.
At E1, I think Super Direct (E1 5b) is a brilliant experience.
Yes, I would give you Bowfell Buttress is better, more interesting and longer!
I first led Upper Scout Crag in the early 1960s, I returned the year before last and led it again. This brought back great memories, and I had forgotten that second pitch. It revived old memories (pretty well my Swan song) and made me feel good, which is what climbing is all about!
A contribution from Caff:
Flying Dutchman on lundy could be the best E7, free masonry and dreaming again two of the best e6s. Always tricky to pinpoint what you even think are the 'best' as climbs are so varied. Couer de lion and extinction are 2 great e8s in the North Wales region and the dyers lookout e9s , big issue and mission impossible are definitely 4 of the best e9s in the uk
Fair enough. I think you're right: the associations a route has are often more powerful than 'the route itself' (whatever that might mean!). All my best days out have been as much about the company and my own excitement and joy as about the actual climbing.
Stonechat - really? not a patch on the other routes mentioned including scout route 1 - imo
> Engineer's Slabs (VS 4c) is a good route but sadly I think it has been spoilt by the scratchings of crampon clade winter climbers...
... we did it a couple of years ago... I'd heard about the 'crampon scratches' but to be honest, while they were visible and we were aware of them, they were no where near as bad as had been suggested and, certainly didn't detract from what was (combined with doing The Jabberwock as well) a great day out on a fabulous mountain crag... not to be missed...
Direct Route VS (Dinas Mot). Varied, well protected pitches, with a hard bit off the final ledge + easily lengthened by Slow Ledge Climb.
Mur y Niwl VS (Craig yr Ysfa) especially if finishing up groove avoiding long traverse L + can finish up Pinnacle Wall or Grimmet
Edit Sorry, can't figure out the linking
Rainbow Bridge needs to be in there, Mark. Moonraker too.
Shame Formula One died, surely the best HVS single pitch there was going. Like Great North Road only bigger and better and a better outlook.
Enjoyed looking through some of the suggestions here, imaging better days to come. Was thinking of ones I’ve done that stand out in the recent past.
'F' Route (VS 4c) VS (link with something lower and it’s even better)
I agree Moonraker (HVS 5a) should be there (but I think Diagonal (HVS 5a) is better). I've not climbed Rainbow Bridge (7a+) so can't comment.
I think Major Slab is better, on reflection, but yes: very quiet, great views and rock scenery, excellent rock, and c.20m of VDiff style slab climbing. Personally, I prefer it - with the caveat that it's probably 4 years or more since I climbed it, and my memory may be a little rose tinted! And with the further caveat that I agree it's not as good as, say, Ash Tree Slabs - which is similar climbing but more varied and in a better position, besides being a way of accessing greater things still!
I guess Great Wall (E4 6a) would be in with a shout at E3 or E4 and White Slab (E2 5c) at E2. I’ve done a fair few of the classic E1s to E3s at Cloggy and whilst it always feels special to climb there (not least due to the relatively rare conditions) and the routes are great, I wouldn’t put most of them in the ‘best of’ category. To be fair, that’s probably a reflection of my preference for sea cliffs.
I’m sure there’s lots of amazing stuff on Scafell, I just haven’t done it and I suspect that would be true of many people as it’s a less visited area. Need to put that right! Didn’t actually think Central Buttress deserved all the hype. Thought Saxon was good but not quite outstanding - a bit like a lot of the Cloggy routes.
I thought Fay was E3 in one of the guide books... Regardless of grade, it’s a strong contender to be on the list. We need separate single and multi pitch lists really
I agree that Laugh Not is fantastic, but I'm in two minds about F Route. I was really excited for it, but I thought the Whit's End start was the best bit of climbing on the route and F Route itself was a little bit of a grotty thrutch. I prefer Haste Not, Ethics of Heather, White Ghyll Wall, Sobrenada, NW Arête, Adam, Dexter Wall, Cravat, Mendes... possibly a few others!
In my 30 year climbing career the best routes I have done were Concrete Chimney at Gogarth and Left Wall on the Cromlech that have already been mentioned.
However I thought Shrike on the Pinnacle of Clogwyn Du'r Arddu was superb, gets better and better the higher you go.
Suicide Wall at Cratcliffe Tor is probably one of the best routes on grit - especially if done as one pitch.
Maybe, but not in a guidebook I have seen. Fay was given E5 in the 1988 North Devon guidebook, and Pacemaker E6!
I'm pleased Diocese is getting some love. Probably my favourite climb in Cornwall (excluding Bosi Ridge) and probably the best VS I've done. Kestrel Crack (VS 4b) and Valkyrie (VS 4c) also.
I thought Eliminate A was a bit 'meh', to be honest, but I like a good line and it's very wandery. Felt like it was trying too hard to find the good climbing.
There's not enough Severes yet, I'm nominating Shangri-La (S 4a).
Ardverikie Wall (HS 4b) at HS.
Hell Gates (HVS 5a), Orange Wall (HVS 5a), Assassin (HVS 5a), and Inner Space (HVS 4c) at HVS.
Ah may be that’s what I was thinking of - and the CC SW Climbs selective from a few years back possibly reprised those higher grades. Seem to recall the grades there were overstated at any rate. Don’t have my guide books to hand to check.
> I'm pleased Diocese is getting some love. Probably my favourite climb in Cornwall (excluding Bosi Ridge) and probably the best VS I've done. Kestrel Crack (VS 4b) and Valkyrie (VS 4c) also.
> I thought Eliminate A was a bit 'meh', to be honest, but I like a good line and it's very wandery. Felt like it was trying too hard to find the good climbing.
Funny that you're promoting Diocese but then go on to say "I like a good line and it's (Elim A) very wandery". I found Diocese to be a bit too disjointed both in line and grade, the traverse being basically a harder way out of a dead end reached by easier climbing with more easier climbing above.
Each to his own I suppose, and thank goodness for that otherwise these threads would be so boring 😁
I agree. It’s nice, but as you say, disjointed. Reckon there’s a number of better VSs in Cornwall. Definitely a striking line though.
Aye, but Misha you think Extol is rubbish, so can we trust your choices!
Black slab isnt even the best diff at bos and the second pitch is basically a walk. Alison rib is much better IMO very even at the grade with 2 contrasting pitches.
Well I think you could almost satisfy this list with Joe Brown routes only.
HVS Cloggy Corner, Valkyrie
E1 Cemetery Gates, The Grooves
E2 Mousetrap, Vector
E3 Great Slab, Right Unconquerable
Not sure if he has produced an E4, but not a bad list!
Extol would certainly not be on my ‘best of’ list. Put it this way, all the routes I’ve mentioned are way better than Extol, so if you think that Extol is good, these routes must be amazing!
Black Slab has a much finer position especially if there is a swell running thin ande "walk" seemed memorable to me on my first ever climb all those years ago
Ichabod (E2 5c)Saxon (E2 5c)The White Wizard (E3 5c)
This would be my idea of a good day out. Can't decide which of the E2s is better, did them both on a sunny June day when the crag was deserted, a priceless memory.
> Ardverikie Wall (HS 4b) at HS.
Sorry, can't have this as it's in Scotland, however it gets a shout on the other thread. https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/the_best_route_of_any_grade_sco...
> I thought Fay was E3 in one of the guide books...
Never! It's a strange route - relatively easy if you're fit enough. I've heard folks say it's E5 for an E4 climber and soft E4 for a fit E5 climber. Anyway, it's down as E4 5c in the next guide.
I'm assuming that you meant another route than Right Unconquerable under your choice for E3.
> Left Wall on the Cromlech that have already been mentioned.
It's a good route but very uneven relatively easy until the well protected crux near the top.
> However I thought Shrike on the Pinnacle of Clogwyn Du'r Arddu was superb, gets better and better the higher you go.
I'd agree with that.
> Suicide Wall at Cratcliffe Tor is probably one of the best routes on grit - especially if done as one pitch.
Also a good shout.
My mistake Gordon, I meant Right Eliminate at Curbar.
Lavaredo (VS 5a) is the best VS I've done, although Gwern pillar (VS 4c) comes close.
Must be just my logbook then, says ‘hard E3 5c’. After the current enforced break, it might as well be E6...
I thought all 3 sections (we linked 3rd & 4th pitch) were great and good value. Found the first pitch hardest by a good margin. Traverse was delicate but easier than the first. While it wanders and zigzags, it follows good, prominent features. It's also nails, and should easily be hvs by my reckoning. I just wasn't inspired by Elim A. Seemed to just climb itself out every other pitch and then have to do some traversing to find a line again.
One route I think must be included Is Hopkinson’s Gully on Scafell, did this as an end of day wind down route many years ago and it was the best route of the day!
Agree re Left Wall. Going left feels like a cop-out direct harder and unbalnced/avoidable. Since I can't have The Bug at E2 then maybe Saxon or Deep Space or Mandarin
Is this in reference to Cyfrwy Tim? TBH I find most things at that sort of grade hard scrambles (I appreciate not all do though!) and struggle to distinguish between Diff/V Diff and grade 3, especially in a pair of trainers with a stopwatch on. And I was lazily referring to the table direct start too, which is a couple of pitches of good easy climbing. As an aside, hope you're doing well.
It's understandable that Superdirect is so popular but it unfortunately seems to have eclipsed Diagonal (HVS 5a).
A route of great contrasts, showing what a fantastically inspired pioneer AB was. I often wonder what gear he had available to him on that first ascent.
> Amphitheatre Buttress isn’t amazing as you say, there are some great bits but the walk in the middle rather lets it down. Good shout on Aura (E2 5b) with the Pinnaclissima (E2 5c) finish, though I’d probably still go for Vector at E2.
I really enjoyed Vector too, but the polish and the fact it's at Tremadog detract a little for me. I think in my head I had included Pinnaclissima as part of Aura - of course its a route in its own right and is also cracking.
> Poetry Pink (E5 6b) - yeah it’s about as good as slabs get but I can’t see it as the best or even one of the best E5s around.
I've not got much experience at E5, but I love slate, love slabs and this was always a big one to do in my mind. If I recall correctly I think I followed you up it on a CC meet, which made me realise I could do it - so thanks!
> My vote at E5 would be Darkinbad the Brightdayler (E5 6a) and judging by the log book comments I’m not the only one to think it’s one of the best rock routes around. Having said that, there are some very strong contenders on Gogarth Main Cliff (Positron (E5 6a), Citadel (E5 6b), Hunger (E5 6a), Dinosaur (E5 6a), Mammoth (E5 6b) - hard to pick one!) and in Pembroke (Darkness at Noon (E5 6a) would be my choice in the Leap, then there’s Just Klingon (E5 6a) for something a bit steeper), The Lean Machine (E5 6a) is in with a shout and certainly the best of what I’ve done at Swanage up to E5, Pacemaker (E5 6a) is certainly worth a shout as is Supersonic (E5 6a), plus tonnes of classics I haven’t done in the Lakes. A very crowded field!
Think I'm going to have to add each and every one of those to the to-do list.
> E3 - The Moon (E3 5c) is a very strong contender as you’ve suggested. Then again, there’s Lubyanka (E3 5c) and The Dream/Liberator (E3 6a). Fay (E4 5c) is probably top of the single pitch list for me and not really E4 if you’re fit!
> E4 - Resurrection (E4 6a), single pitch face climbing perfection, actually better than Right Wall as it doesn’t feature party ledges. Bloody Sunday (E4 6a) is in with a shout as well. The Skull (E4 6a) possibly tops the multipitch list at the grade.
> No personal experience at E6 and above, hopefully some of the wads will come along shortly. Speaking of which, King Wad (E6 6b) is another one to add to the E5 shortlist and it’s definitely not E6!
Noted
Hi Mark. Hope you're all good down there.
So many routes to choose from, especially in the VS/HVS range. This is still the standout VS for me.
I had the great pleasure of meeting Arthur Birtwhistle at an MUMC dinner in the late 70s. He talked about the FA of Diagonal, saying how relieved they were when they arrived on the ledge above the chimney (end of pitch 2) to find a bollard and know they could abseil off if neccessary.
As for gear - they'd take pebbles to wedge in cracks then thread a line sling around (not a lot of use on Diagonal but I think they got used on The Drainpipe Crack). His comment on nuts was "Why didn't we think of that?"
Diagonal (HVS 5a) is I think my favourite HVS, it's such a great route and having meet AB adds that bit more.
I'm afraid I can't remember anything about Bachelor's Climb (VS 4c) I climbed it in '77, I'll put it on my to re-climb list (will it count as a "retro-flash"?).
All good down here - the allotment is getting way more attention than it's used to. Ali and I had a lovely walk along the beach at low tide yesterday, quite a few people about but everyone keeping at a sensible "social distance". It feels strange meeting friends and chatting at 3m!
Hope all is good with you and Hannah.
> ...........Joe Brown routes...... Not sure if he has produced an E4........
I thought (could be completely wrong) that Rapture of the Deep (E4 5b) was a Joe Brown route?? Anyone know??
Bit late to the party but here's my (tentative and slightly Lakes-biased) selection:
M Pinnacle Ridge (Grade-3) Can't think of anything better at the grade outside Scotland
D Corvus (D) (lots of diffs in Wales I haven't done)
VD New West Climb (VD) Tremendous atmosphere and solid, clean rock
MS Bowfell Buttress (HS 4b) Never understood the upgrade to HS. MS more plausible IMO.
S Murray's Route (S 4a) Better than Troutdale Pinnacle IMO. TP is superb but getting v. polished
HS Main Wall (HS 4b) Just pips Tophet IMO in terms of atmosphere and commitment
MVS Moss Ghyll Grooves (VS 4c) Valid grade - it's not HS but mild for VS.
VS Engineer's Slabs (VS 4c) Incredible location/position, strong line and sustained climbing
HVS A Dream of White Horses (HVS 4c) Comment superfluous
E1 Rock Idol (E1 5a) Incredible for the grade
E2 White Slab (E2 5c) Classic, big and committing
E3 Comes the Dervish (E3 5c) Surprisingly enjoyable and safe after first 8m
I thought it was a fantastic route when i did it two summers ago. varied, engaging and sustained.
Think i nearly fell off the last pitch.
Apparently the last pitch is a modern addition AB said that he finished near West Rib.
Bowfell Buttress I really don't think is good enough to be in this list. It's in a fine position by the climbing is uneven, and quite scruffy. It's a v, diff really the crux simply being tricky moves off a friendly terrace. I've taken virtual beginners up it with no problems.
Modern as in "sometime after 1938" but I suspect still older than nearly all of us 😁
Another of AB's very worthwhile routes is The Buttonhook Route (E1 5b). Edit: another one up to E1 - not sure I agree but then it was a long time ago that I did this.
> Bowfell Buttress I really don't think is good enough to be in this list. It's in a fine position by the climbing is uneven, and quite scruffy. It's a v, diff really the crux simply being tricky moves off a friendly terrace. I've taken virtual beginners up it with no problems.
Admittedly, the fact that you can walk off into north gully along the big ledge below the so-called crux does detract from the quality of BB, but IMHO the climbing is really quite good at the standard, on immaculate rock. It's one of my favourite solos in summer.
I totally agree about the standard, though. High VDiff or Mild Severe seems about right to me. HS 4b is just ridiculous. The 'slippery crack' isn't even the most difficult pitch on the climb, and certainly isn't 4b. The top pitch of Troutdale Pinnacle is more difficult, yet that doesn't even get a technical grade! Are we seriously supposed to believe that BB is harder than Murray's Route, and the same grade as Tophet Wall?
I was very surprised that Rockfax went along with the FRCC in this upgrade. But I notice there are some real howlers in the graded list in the new Rockfax guide - e.g. Ardus is higher up the list than Eve. Seriously?
> I'll start with Pinnacle Ridge (Grade-3) OK the logbooks give it grade 3 scramble, but I reckon that's Moderate.
> So the next route has to be a better mod (in your opinion) or your best Diff.
Can we go back to a better Mod?
No match for climb id:105139
1000' of eye-catching arete, impressively inescapable at anything like the grade, protection probably pretty sparse (though I wasn't really looking), cave three-quarters of the way up to eat your lunch out of the rain, big drop to maintain your interest.
> E2 White Slab (E2 5c) Classic, big and committing
I completely agree about White Slab (E2 5c). Done it several times and it never gets old - positions, sustained, line, good climbing. One of my top favourite routes
It gets Mod in the 2010 CC (and SG3) so you can have it. I've not done it, but it looks good.
The biggest problem with Pinnacle Ridge is trying to locate the start. This is even more tricky when it's gloomy or covered in winter snow. It really is lost against the hillside!
wonder if that way was easier or harder. I think i mainly found the last pitch hard because it was so out of character for the climb, with all the balancing.
Technically easier I think, but probably fairly poorly protedted (from what I remember of West Rib).
whats western rib like? I've not had chance to go back too it.
West Rib (HVS 5a) - sorry I got the name wrong, I climbed it in '77 so the memories are rather vague. I love all the climbing on the nose of The Mot, I remember it as enjoyable steady climbing, not that technically difficult but not well protected.
Spaced pro but steady, doesn't feel as run out as Diagonal, very worthwhile route.
I don't know why TP doesn't get a technical grade. It was November and wet when I climbed it but it felt like at least 3 pitches deserved grading. I remember thinking the move after the photogenic traverse (P4?) was quite spicy until I got a sling on a spike.
> It gets Mod in the 2010 CC (and SG3) so you can have it. I've not done it, but it looks good.
I hadn't done anything in that area until last summer when I found I needed some emergency training for the alps. In big boots and dodgy weather it felt like proper climbing and it's only easy if you keep right to the edge, over the big drop.
I'll definitely be going back with a rope to tackle the 'VS' to the left of it. It looks like a 1000ft version of Wrecker's Slab.
Something else for my "to do" list...
Great article! It’s given me loads of inspiration for when we are all allowed to go climbing again. For example, never heard of New West Climb (VD) but, after all the votes it has received, will try to do it next time I’m in the Lakes. Many thanks.
I can only comment on the lower grade routes so here goes:
SG3 Clogwyn y Person Arete (Grade-3) especially if you start up The Parson's Nose (D)
Diff Alison Rib (D) The position may not be as great as Black Slab but the actual climbing is better, in my opinion. Both great routes though.
V Diff Bosigran Ridge a.k.a Commando Ridge (VD) Obviously this assumes that you do P1 which is amazing. Wait for low tide and calm seas to do this. However, I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Flying Buttress (VD) as it’s a great route with steep climbing, incredible exposure and a sting in the tail on the final pitch!
Severe Crackstone Rib (S 4a) Haven’t climbed many routes at this grade but this is the best I’ve done so far.
Agree with you about the pitch out of the gap. Better and harder than anything on Table Direct. Did the whole route again last September in great weather (albeit very windy) and it’s a brilliant mountaineering day out. Loads of good climbing and scrambling and stunning views and positions.
I did it last year in winter conditions but didn't realise the winter route is supposed to go up that gully and join the route after the table so climbed via the normal summer route. Great climb but the rock is dubious in places.
In reply to PaulJepson:
> There's not enough Severes yet, I'm nominating Shangri-La (S 4a).
It is quite interesting that people are having difficulty finding top quality severes to nominate; I am too. I keep thinking of good ones, then realise they're in Scotland. There seem to be far more memorable routes in the HS category.
Your suggestion of Shangri-La is a good one, though I seem to remember that after the start it settled down to be a bit of an amble. Is that unfair?
Here's a couple that haven't been mentioned yet:
Neither are specially popular, but the latter has only one recorded ascent on UKC.
The start is the hardest move (4b imo) and then the rest is kind of all the same but the suspense builds as you get to 40 odd meters above the beach and have ran out of big nuts and QDs!
There's not many routes that spring to mind outside of The Lakes or North Wales at Severe, especially. Balcony Buttress (S 4a) or Black Hawk Hell Crack (S 4a) perhaps? Haven't climbed either. Climbed Crack and Corner (S 4b) last year and didn't think it was anything to particularly write home about.
Edit: turns out I have climbed BB actually. Memorable, obviously.
Severe:
Another vote for Shangri-La (S 4a)
Not a lot of low-grade Pembroke in the list so far so nominate Giltar Slab Route (S 4a)
Surprised not to see more easy stuff at the Roaches, so nominate Black and Tans (S 4a) or Black Velvet (S 4a)
> Bosigran Ridge a.k.a Commando Ridge (VD) Obviously this assumes that you do P1 which is amazing. Wait for low tide and calm seas to do this. <
Don't think it needs low tide, I've done it loads of times and never consulted tide tables. In fact low tides and rough(ish) seas makes it far more atmostpheric.
How about Clach Glas - Blabheinn Traverse D ? Not much D but a great little adventure.
agree on the quality and moderate surely?
In Scotland though no?
Pendulum Chimney at Chair Ladder is great at severe.
Wilson’s route choices for classic rock were almost all good ones apart from the weird grit choices
James
> Severe:
> Not a lot of low-grade Pembroke in the list so far so nominate Giltar Slab Route (S 4a)
Nice one.
> Surprised not to see more easy stuff at the Roaches, so nominate Black and Tans (S 4a) or Black Velvet (S 4a)
Black Velvet was always a favourite of mine when I lived in Leek and had only just started climbing. It was V Diff then and 1* and I always thought it much better than B&T.
Arête, Chimney and Crack (Summer) (S 3c) if only for the traverse, superb.
> sea of rock, no idea why only 2 stars
Yep, another good one, John. Might be better rated if it had a better name.
> Pendulum Chimney at Chair Ladder is great at severe.
I've been trying to think of that one. It could be the final choice!
> Re; Clach Glas - Blabheinn Traverse D <
> agree on the quality and moderate surely? In Scotland though no? <
.Maybe I'll use the lockdown to read Geography for Idiots.
It's been a week and I've completely lost the plot, I'm not sure what day it is I wouldn't worry.
... and while you're at it, get some punctuation lessons. Starting a sentence with a full stop, I don't know!
Your hands obviously have a better memory than your nose!
(re: Pendulum Chimney)
> Your hands obviously have a better memory than your nose!
> (re: Pendulum Chimney)
I try to make a habit of remembering nice things and forgetting the unpleasant. I wonder if I did it early enough in March to avoid the worst of the nesting fulmars?
When it comes to VS grade there are just so many classics to choose from. Here are three of my favourites
Mickledore Grooves (VS 5a) must be in with a shout
Eagle Front (VS 4c) is a memorable climb for all sorts of reasons and doesn't peter out like many multi-pitch routes do, but finishes, abruptly IIRC, with a peerless final pitch. Also has the benefit of a history.
The North West Arete (VS 4b) 'F' Route (VS 4c) combination takes some beating for me also.
No nesting fulmars on pendulum chimney. Just seagulls and hard ones at that. The fulmars nest in the depths of Zawn rinney. Climbed it last in January with no birds, guano or fishy smell. Not one for the nesting season as the lovely young man from CUMC found as the same bird attacked over and over again. He had already asked if the birds would be a problem. Having told him that it might be best avoided, I must confess to some giggling as we heard the shouting and saw the subsequent retreat.
James
I don't understand the suggestions for Troutdale Pinnacle, I found it pretty lacklustre, maybe I need to do it again.
The polish on the final pitch was horrible.
The view from the top was nice.
Or this day:
youtube.com/watch?v=dqin--sKc_4&
Definitely need to take great care down there.
> Yep! Second that for Table Direct and Cyfrwy Arete. I find the pitch after Table Gap on the arete as good/better/harder than the Direct pitches.
Another vote for that. The belay above that pitch was fantastic, watching the rope arcing out in the breeze, the table below that and lower down, Llyn y Gader glistening turquoise in the sun. That's what mountain trad is about.
Sorry you can't have that, Sacre Coeur (E2 5c) is going in the next guide at E2 and the voting on here gives it solid E2.
No mention of Murray’s on Dow for (S)
C Ordinary on the same crag well worth a punt at (D)
E3 Silly Arête Easiest decision of the lot. Dervish marvellous too.
> ... and while you're at it, get some punctuation lessons. Starting a sentence with a full stop, I don't know! <
So that's Grammar for Dummies to add to my lockdown reading list.
I think Murray's has been mentioned. Maybe you missed it. I was wondering if I'd missed mention of 'D' Route (S 4a) which would certainly take some beating in the single pitch severe category if there were one.
> No mention of Murray’s on Dow for (S)
With good reason. The most artificial, tediously meandering way of getting hypothermia in the Lakes.
Having nominated Via Principia I thought I should look at the log book comments on UKC. I can't remember seeing so many 5* reviews! Lots of people using words like best and outstanding.
Btw I seem to remember that it was due to be in Classic Rock but never made it in the end because they failed to get any worthwhile pictures, largely owing to its northerly aspect.
Vote for VP!!
Via Principia (S 4a) Another for my list...
> I don't understand the suggestions for Troutdale Pinnacle, I found it pretty lacklustre, maybe I need to do it again.
> The polish on the final pitch was horrible.
First you say it lacks lustre, then you say it's very polished. Make your mind up. ;0)
> First you say it lacks lustre, then you say it's very polished. Make your mind up. ;0)
ha ha
> When it comes to VS grade there are just so many classics to choose from. ... ...
> The North West Arete (VS 4b) 'F' Route (VS 4c) combination takes some beating for me also.
Absolutely agreed. Vastly superior to the nearby Gimmer Crack, which is fairly ordinary climbing (on good rock). There are just so many great VSs in England and Wales that The Crack would probably merely get into the top 100, and then, quite far down the list.
Gimmer crack was the first Hard Rock route I did because it was in the book (& therefore should be very good ?). It was a long time ago but I remember little of the climbing but do remember being dissapointed as it wasn't any thing special. As you say NW arete/F route (climbed not long after) did leave some lasting memories & (for me) is a much better route. But is there some history to Gimmer crack which I've forgot behind its selection ?
Ive always thought this was the crux Myfyr! Hope you're keeping well
Haste Not is better than either of those Gimmer routes, and arguably the best in Langdale. And that's just Langdale.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Complexity of line, stunning situations, variety of climbing...one of the very best that the Lakes or wales has to offer...not sure about Scottish VDs though
Yup, agree, though the grade is probably open to debate... Assumed you levitated up cruxes anyway! Stay safe.
I'm surprised that there has been no mention of Creag Dhu Wall as best HS.
I'd agree with dinodinosaur on Poor Man's Peuterey as best S but certainly not on Amphitheatre Buttress as best VD - vegetated, midge-infested and broken as I remember it. My vote for best VD goes to Gashed Crag which I've always enjoyed much more than its neighbour.
Surely Kipling Groove is the best route on Gimmer, Langdale, Britain? I would choose Wales, Scotland, the Peak over the Lakes most of the time but I think KG is the masterpiece of the lesser gods of British climbing...
I'm going with Krait Arete at High Rocks for the simply perfect crux rockover and holds, Art Nouveau at the Roaches for the beauty of the line and the amazing texture and appearance of the rock, and Beau Geste.
And I don't care that these are not in order or following the rules.
Kipling is totally brill, partic wit N/W arete start. But that of course is HVS, and at that point in the discussion people were talking about VSs.
I must say that Krait Arete looks like one of the most beautiful pieces of rock climbing on the whole planet. I used to walk past it in wonder, because it was so far beyond my ability that there was no point in even trying it. What an incredible monument to Martin Boysen's ability and vision.
Apologies, I should pay more attention when going on about routes on Gimmer.
You're right about Krait Arete, it is a thing of beauty, and I think I'm right in saying that Boysen doesn't mention it in his autobiography, maybe when you're that gifted it's not a big deal..
Actually KA may be the best route per foot of climbing in the country?
For me routes like Great Wall on Cloggy, Jelly Roll, Eroica, Central Butress (Scafell), Saxon, Mousetrap sum up what I love about British climbing and even shorter ones like Bloody Sunday, Fay, Diamond Smiles, Zeppelin, Pleasure Dome, Space Cadet (okay I have a soft spot for Pembroke!), Five Finger Exercise, Left Wall make me smile when I think back on them....