UKC

So just wondering people's opinions on when and how it will be acceptable to climb outside again (obvs not now). As in when lockdown eases as it has done in other countires things have returned gradually and the government issues guidance when certain activities can take place again. However, I'm guessing the government arn't going to release an official statement about outdoor climbing.

So whats the measure/benchmark for when its acceptable to go to crags again? - is it when enough pressure has eased off the emegerncy services? is it when the BMC releases a statament? is it when indoor gyms open again thats taken as the benchmark? Is it when we're allowed social gatherings more than 2?

How on earth will it be judged and regulated? will people wait for official guidance or wait for certain measures to ease then use their own judgement?

Staying positive and thinking forward about returning to the crag so trying to picture how/when it will happen

You forgot the most crucial benchmark of all... When UKC turn the logbooks back on! Might be tricky for them to decide when to pull that trigger.

I don't think there will be an easy moment to call when climbing becomes acceptable again. And the transition period is going to cause a whole heap more rancour on here. I would imagine that The BMC or UKC aren't going to feel comfortable advising a return to climbing until it's a fairly clear cut case, by which time lots of people will have independently made that call for themselves at different stages. Which means sniping from those who've made a different call.

From an infection-spreading perspective, outdoor climbing seems like it could be reasonable sooner than indoors. But if minimising injury risk is the key factor, maybe the opposite, especially in public perception.

We'll probably be allowed to go bouldering and sport climbing first, then later trad climbing but only routes like E1 5c or E2 6a. Could be a long time before E1 5a's are opened up for leading (but top-roping might be allowed). Who knows when a route like Indian Face would be permitted!

I suspect indoor walls (like other commercial exercise gyms) will be one of the last things to re-open, along with bars, theatres etc. Outdoor climbing is much more likely to resume before indoor climbing does.

My guess would be: wait on what the BMC says, who will likely move in line with bodies like National Trust, the national park authorities, etc. Going to be frustrating for a few weeks when things are easing off a bit but its unclear what is and is not acceptable yet.

+1

Pretty much covers it

Indoor walls are going to re-open when the Govt advice is that gyms/leisure centres can do so. As Luke90 says, the BMC etc are not going to lead on any advice, so that'll only come when there's no risk of them being criticized for saying it's fine to get back outside (i.e. when it won't potentially load the emergency services). So inevitably some climbers will go outside once walls are open (indeed some are out there now, as I saw in Avon Gorge yesterday), but the majority will surely wait for the BMC etc to give the go-ahead.

You're probably right, in that it would be unlikely that govt advice would be any more differentiated than that. Otoh: it's already (pre-corona) recommended in weights gyms that people wipe down bars, benches etc after use - and some people even actually do it. I find it harder to envisage people using a little bottle of spray disinfectant on routes while lowering off  

Good question. 

The answer willing probably be - not until the local MR team is completely happy for us to be climbing in their area.

Basically, whatever the Government or anyone else says, local MR teams effectively have a veto. UKC, BMC, NT, National Parks, etc. are never going to overrule whatever the say. That unfortunately puts everyone involved in MR in a rather insidious position, however they are absolutely those best placed to assess the impact on themselves, the local community and other emergency services. 

I'd probably say "when it's announced that the National Parks are open for business again".  While there was a small risk of spread from the rock itself, the issue is more about honeypotting and the issues caused by having lots of people completing possibly dangerous activities in areas with very limited NHS facilities.

So if you can walk up Snowdon you can probably go for a climb, but not really until then.

Indoor walls as someone else said just come under the generic "indoor leisure venues" principle, same as gyms with similar risks of spread.

I don’t think the government will give the ok to climbing in general. Once people are allowed to travel freely to areas of outdoor recreation then for me that’s when I’ll start climbing outside. I’m not sure I’d wait for the BMC to give the ok at they may well be keen to avoid negative publicity due to funding etc. 
 

I never put anything on my ukc logbook so I’ll not wait for them either! Although I do find their online guides etc very useful and of good quality 😊

The government obviously will never mention climbing specifically, indoor walls will be a bit behind outdoor stuff though I imagine.

I'm not sure how relevant the BMC will be, or Mountain Rescue. I imagine their view will be pretty similar to mine, but if I interpret government guidance as suggesting climbing is ok, I'm not sure what consideration I'll give to the BMC's advise. I hope it's a moot point because like I say, they're outlook will probably be the same as mine, it has been so far.

This is for personal climbing, in a work sense I'll definitely pay close attention to BMC / MR / my insurance company etc.

There are three restrictions which are preventing climbing at the moment:

1) Non-essential travel is not allowed; the spread of the virus round the country is slowed, and there are no large numbers of cars/people at beaches, carparks in the Peak etc.

2) Social distancing to prevent the spread within social groups (like climbing clubs).

3) A moral responsibility to avoid activities which might lead to hospitalisation.

It seems to me that even bouldering at a low level on your own above mats is not going to be possible until non-essential travel is allowed, but this is probably one of the last restrictions which will be lifted. Non-essential travel is only crucial for tourism, hotels, restaurants etc, but this is probably going to be the last economic sector to be 'released' as restrictions are gradually reduced. Several months away at least, I would guess.

If I’m expected to go to work in the office I’ll be going climbing. Locally if that is still seen as the appropriate way, but if it’s okay to go to work then I’ll damm well go climbing.

Whist the BMC UKC and other bodies are useful in helping people make informed choices I personally will be looking to the advice coming from the medical authorities feeding through the government. Most of us have decided to stay off the rock but that's due to government guidelines. I'll be looking past the rest.

I'm guessing when non-essential travel becomes acceptable again people will be out and about, rather than when the BMC or whoever says so. Edit to add: I don't necessarily agree with this, it's just what I think will happen!

I have a horrible feeling the more accessible crags and hills will be bloody unbearable this autumn ;p

Local MR teams do not have a veto nor would they want one. It's not the place of MR to be policing access to the hills and crags.

The BMC should never have got involved in this beyond reiterating the government's guidelines. To link not climbing to risk of injury was a huge mistake that has painted us into a corner from which it will be very difficult to extract ourselves there are many good reasons not to be climbing right now the risk of injury isn't one of them. How can we ever define when it will be acceptable to risk ending up in hospital again?

I'm usually the first to call out the BMC, never been a big fan of bodies and all that kind of stuff but what I do admire is the grass roots work that often comes from a collective like that. I have decided to stop climbing for the very reason of risk right now, risk to myself as a hospital is the last place I want to be in the current situation and risk of contact with other climbers and coughing on the rock.... blah blah.

Interestingly I've got somebody in the house working in the paramedic service and she says things are very quiet right now so the idea that accidents are a strain on an already stretched 999 service might not be as true as we'd think, might be a different story in other areas of the country.

Defining risk and acceptablity will be down to ourselves. My climbing and choices have nothing to do with the BMC or anyone else.

I too have elected to stop climbing but this is because either i would have to undertake an unnecessary journey or walk to the same tiny bit of rock as everyone else in the city which would leave a huge risk of contact with other climbers and touching the same bit of rock repeatedly. going with these lines would have been far more sensible from the BMCs point of view and would have had the same conclusions.  

I've had much the same story from friends working in A&E.

As others have said, the govt is not going to make a rule specifically for climbing to resume so it will be for everyone to make up their own mind when circumstances are right.

It is worth remembering that there is actually no legal ban on climbing now.  Section 6(2)(b) of the regulations gives four  lawful reasons for leaving home one of which is:-

"to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household"

That's all it says. Nothing there limiting it to walking  and cycling, nothing about one session a day, nothing about a one hour limit  and nothing saying you can't go climbing. All that has come as afterthoughts and whims in tweets and interviews which have no force in law. As others have pointed out, the BMC statement has no legal standing nor is the BMC  a governing body for climbing. It has no authority whatsoever so follow it or ignore it as you choose. MRTs I have more respect for but, again they are not law makers.

On a personal note, I can walk to a gritstone bouldering crag from my house as well as to two more esoteric holes in the ground which both have some scope. So far I've been to none of them except on walks. Largely this is because I don't much like bouldering and the limitied pleasure I might get does not as yet outweigh the crap I may have to put up with. When the desperation/dislike will finally tilt in favour of going I can't say. Maybe when things get a bit warmer. Ironically, if  I were allowed to drive there I would take my big mat and be safe  but if forced to walk I'd make do with a bar towel.

As for the idea of placing a burden on the emergency services, we know that all climbing appears suicidal to the uninitiated but I have been astonished how meekly climbers themselves and the BMC have accepted that dubious narrative. I would say I am far more likely to end up in A&E cycling than low-ball bouldering or shunting and have certainly had more numerous and more serious injuries from DIY than climbing. I have long considered the old jibe that UK climbing is 'organised cowardice' to be pretty accurate, especially since  those lovely shiny bolts came along.  I would have thought this would be true for most people and particularly at the moment when  nobody in their right mind wants to go anywhere near a hospital and so would presumably  be extra careful and even more risk averse than usual.

I still have to go into my workshop everyday, am I allowed to go climbing now? 

You are allowed too. See the above discussion.

i personally think its absurd that those who are not “essential workers” without know what kind of workshop you’re in I wouldn’t coment on your status, are still going to work but people view a bit of climbing as a crime. 
 

I am lucky enough to be able to work from home so in my view if it’s safe to go into the office its safe to go climbing. 

OK, I can only think of 2.

1) risk of infecting climbing partner or vice versa.

2) risk of road accident in driving to the crag.

What are the others?

Once hillwalking is acceptable, I'm going climbing. 

And I can't bloody wait!!  

Going to areas where you are touching the rock and leaving germs on the holds. Routes on outdoor rock aren't exactly the germ petri dishes of door handles on toilet cubicles but in sheltered areas where there could be climbers following on routes it could be passed on.

I've heard the argument that supermarkets are the danger spots so that some how knocks out the above issue but just because one place is potentially a greater risk it doesn't make climbing right now acceptable. A friend of mine suggested that as my wife is the person I climb with most then I could still climb locally. I could argue that there is a section of rock up the road that gets very few accents. I've decided to just sit it out for now.

So much to look forward to when we all get back out!

It will be when the government says so. There will be a list of things we can do and can't do. An individual could ignore the rules or the social and moral pressure if they wished to.

The best explanation for all of this is of course by Monty Python

youtube.com/watch?v=M5Flr-hQHcY&

Risk of infecting others at the crag. Either directly or indirectly via holds etc. 
 

There are others I’m sure

Not too bothered about access agreements  and bird restrictions then?

But you could touch many things while out and about - the gate to a (non-prohibited) park for example. The main thing is to wash your hands afterwards.

Naturally you would stay away from others at the crag (I would hope).

I was refering to the Coronavirus restrictions. Context, you know.

Given how quickly and shrilly people gave away both their own and others' right to climb, I doubt the UKC Forum Troll police will allow us to claim ascents this year without being called "selfish", "moronic" and "irresponsible". But, then, people have called climbers these things since the very start...

I wonder how many climbers there are out there that are blissfully unaware of the existence of the BMC and UKC and are just making their own judgements.

No-one gave away your right to climb,. shrilly or otherwise. Like everyone else, you made your own decision, whatever that was. 

The decision to climb or not was very heavily constrained by a tidal wave of posturing and virtue signalling, not least from the BMC. 

But ultimately you made your own choice. Your decision, your responsibility. 

Virtue signalling. Ha ha.

The 10 or so others I partner up with only about 2 bother with all that stuff, the rest probably don't even know the BMC exist. The 2 who bother with clubs/BMC and all that comes with it are the oldest 2 I climb with. Non of my partners are climbing at the moment.

From what I've read, the release of the lockdown may happen in stages and social distancing will be the last bit to go (when a vaccine becomes widely available).

As most forms of climbing aren't compatible with social distancing,  my concern is that we may not be able to climb with someone from another household for six months or more.  Which pretty much puts the kybosh into the 2020 summer season.  And that's not a comforting thought to those in their 70s with only a few seasons left.

I suspect that this year, my roadbike will get much more use than my climbing gear.

A very good and (for us) important question, with no simple answer as far as outdoor climbing is concerned.

As others have said, the walls will open once the government permits leisure facilities to reopen. Unless they’ve gone bust in the interim... If the government’s view is that a gym is fine to open, I don’t see why climbing walls should be any different. Similar proximity to other people and use of hand held equipment / holds. Would probably be one of the last things to reopen, although possibly before people are advised that they no longer need to work from home.

With outdoor climbing, there are a few factors to consider. Everyone will form their own judgement because there is no right and wrong answer here and to some extent everyone’s circumstances will be different.

1. As noted above, outdoor climbing alone or with other members of your household is not actually illegal. Most people currently consider that it’s not in the spirit of things but there is a minority who have continued to get out. As the weeks roll by and patience is tested, there will be more such people. I will not judge them.

2. Advice from the BMC, MRT, National Parks and so on will be relevant but I suspect ‘official’ bodies such as these will play it safe or stay silent altogether. If anyone waits for the BMC to give the go ahead, I suspect they will be waiting a very long time...

3. Government guidance / rules on travel and social distancing will be relevant. Whilst technically it is not illegal to drive to a crag at the moment, at the moment most people probably think it’s not appropriate given the wider context. In addition, some police forces are doing spot checks and some locals are not exactly welcoming. Once the guidance on unnecessary travel changes, that would be a significant development. Worth noting that this could change in a regional basis, which would introduce its own complexities (can I leave area A which is not restricted and travel through area B which is to reach area C which is not?). Furthermore, the rules are clear that you must be alone or with other members of your household, so that would need to change for people who aren’t lucky enough to have a climber in their household.

4. The opening up of other aspects of everyday life will be relevant. As other people have said, if non-essential workplaces and shops are open, some people would take that as a cue for doing other non-essential things, such as climbing.

5. Risk of injury (and hence burden on the NHS) will be a relevant consideration. To a large extent, this could be mitigated through experience and choice of appropriate venues and activities (eg sport climbing at quieter crags). Personally, I don’t think my approach on this would be significantly different to any other time. I don’t generally get on routes where there is a more than remote risk of injury (that’s not the same as not doing serious routes - the key is being able to manage the risk). However after a significant lay off I would moderate my ambitions and build up fitness gradually - it’s just common sense. A route which would have been appropriate at the height of the last summer season would not necessarily be appropriate whenever I opt to get back out on rock.

6. The views of your climbing partners and the wider climbing community (to the extent you can gauge it) will be relevant, aka peer pressure.

7. The general level of compliance with whatever measures are in place will be relevant. At the moment, compliance is fairly high and I imagine this will continue for the next few weeks. However with time compliance may well loosen, regardless of whether the measures are actually relaxed - it’s just human nature. Once measures start getting relaxed, compliance with remaining measures could slacken. This would precipitate a gradual chain reaction as once people see increasing levels of non-compliance among others, they are more likely to push and go beyond the boundaries themselves.

8. The weather will, as ever, play an important role. Perhaps even more so - if the forecast is so-so, some people might be more tempted to sack it off in view of residual concerns about social distancing etc; if the forecast is good after a lengthy lockdown, some people might be more tempted to head out even in spite of residual concerns.

9. Individual circumstances will be relevant. People who can get to a ‘local’ crag (whatever ‘local’ means...) would perhaps be more likely to get out than people stuck in London. People who can get out mid week would perhaps be more likely to get out than weekend warriors.

10. Views on where the country is at in the epidemic curve will be relevant. Not just the government’s view but also views from informed commentators and the media. Once people can see that the epidemic is petering out, they are more likely to head out climbing, regardless of what the official advice is.

At the end of the day, it’s impossible to predict what might happen. Covid has already got the world to a stage which you could barely have imagined a few months ago. There could be other twists and turns in store for us, resulting in important new considerations which we can’t even think of at the moment.

I have to take a couple weeks’ holiday before the end of August. At the moment, I’m hoping to spend that time climbing, almost certainly in the UK. Can I be sure it will be possible? Unfortunately not. We could be in relatively tight lockdown all through the summer (though that seems unlikely) or we could be back in relatively tight lockdown after a temporary relaxation earlier in the summer (which seems possible).

You might be right but then how do you square that with people being allowed back into non essential work, which I suspect will happen by around the end of May for those who can’t work at home? In fact some people are still doing non essential work, for example takeaways where there is absolutely no social distancing between staff.

It may be possible to have social distancing in place in some work places but is 2m really enough if you’re going to be next to someone all day? I suspect it would actually be easier to maintain social distancing at a crag! There could be a few brief occasions when you have to be in close proximity to your partner, such as topping out or sharing a small belay ledge (the latter could be avoided by only doing single pitch). However on the whole I’d be a lot less concerned about getting out for a day’s climbing than going to the office, which even if it’s half empty will still have lots of people in an enclosed space, with over a hundred people sharing toilet and tea facilities etc. I’m not saying people should ignore social distancing rules but there could come a point when some things will no longer stack up and that will get people thinking. The debate will run on for a while...

The other factor here is that high risk groups such as the over 70s could be advised to continue (largely) self isolating. I suspect it would be advisory rather than mandatory but it could be something else to throw into an already complicated mix.

Who’d have thought that the decision on whether to go climbing could become some complex!

I don't think it is. You weight up the risk and follow the advice of the heath officials. I'm not using other scenarios to determine the safety and justifiability of my climbing. I don't judge the choices of others either. Good luck.

I said that slightly in jest but I do think that this will be a fairly grey area for a period of time. At the moment, the general gist of the advice is to stay at home where possible. Even though the rules technically permit climbing in some circumstances, the general view is that people should refrain from it for the time being. So that is fairly clear. Equally, one day we will hopefully get to a happy point where it’s clear that it’s fine to go climbing. The bit in the middle, which could be several months long, could be different shades of grey to different people. I agree with your point about risk assessment and medical advice but I suspect that these things will not necessarily be clear. We shall see...

Could become an annual exercise if this study is on the right lines. How long lasting the immune response will be, either from vaccination or infection, is a key question.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/coronavirus-distancing-contin...

It'll depend on local/regional pressures at the health service end.Once these settle down restrictions will be lifted.So probaly some months ahead in the case of the uk imo.

I read your second comment after posting my initial one, point well made.

The risk is that the restrictions which affect us stay in place indefinitely. For example, industries such as construction and manufacturing are encouraged to return to work, but the guidance on social distancing and avoiding travel remain in place.

You are right about the weather playing an important role. One of my worries is that if we have a couple  more months as unseasonably dry as March has been there's a horrible possibility of relaxed virus rules happening at the same time as a shutdown of the moors because of fire risk. Human nature being what it is, the consequences would be catastrophic to say the least.

I think it's pretty simple, when the government allows non-essential travel for leisure purposes you can go climbing.

There may still be distancing rules in place which mean you can't climb with people outside your household for a while longer.

Of course if you are asking when will it be worth the risk that's a personal question.

My two most local crags are within easy walking distance of my house. Does walking to a crag count as "travel"?

Yes defining travel of the lack of definition has always been a problem in this

Well it’s not that simple, some of us can take in a number of crags on our daily exercise.

Agreed. Soon as I'm allowed to drive I want to get out mid-day, mid-week with my pads to Burbage. Obviously I'll be taking it easy rather than highballing above sketchy landings at Burbage South...

As long as ICU admissions are overwhelming the system I don't see that the government has any choice..Once they come down then the restrictions can be relaxed bit by bit.

Agreed, I also fear though that as soon as the restrictions are lifted in the slightest the floodgates will open and we'll see endless repeats of what happened in north Wales etc. three weeks ago.

Completely agree that a gradual easing of lockdown restrictions is required. My concern is that instead of a risk-based approach to this, the focus is wholly on the economic impact, and getting people back to work. 
 

This is where the BMC, (and many other outdoor bodies), need to be speaking to Government and winning the argument that a relaxation in the rules on leisure travel would bring major benefits at minimal risk.

Agreed hence my feelings on if works going back to normal I’m going climbing. I don’t exist to service the economy.

You're right: I make my own decisions. But, I'm not a sociopath - I respond to others and their feelings, and I would find it hard to climb with joy in my heart at a time when being discovered doing so would meet with anger, not only from society more generally, but from the climbing community itself - and perhaps even from friends and climbing partners.

In the run up to the lockdown, we saw many people ranting on UKC and elsewhere that climbing should stop. This was whilst life was more or less continuing as normal. This was before pubs were closed. It's clear now that the government should have put the whole country into lockdown a month earlier than it did. Because of their failure, thousands of people are dying unnecessarily. But, that is a separate issue.

Initially the BMC took a sensible line: stay local, avoid busy areas, stay within your comfort zone. During the week starting the 16th, this was in line with advice from the government and from those epidemiologists whose opinions could be sought. But, a palpable hysteria was emerging on UKC and elsewhere, with people demanding UKC close the logbooks, whilst shit-posting to name and shame those who had been out climbing. At this point, the Welsh Access Officer, Elfyn Jones, took to UKC to plead the case to people that it was immoral and irresponsible to continue climbing.

One of the things that worried me about this is that it suggests some in the BMC see themselves not as a body whose purpose is to (legally) protect climbers and their right to access land, but as a body to regulate climbing. The other thing that concerned me was the rationale: climbing is dangerous, they said, and it is irresponsible to take risks at this time because it will put MRT in danger and add to the stress on the NHS.

This was immediately followed by a much bigger government and media driven shit-storm on the weekend of the 20th-22nd March (before the lockdown!), where the outdoor community was seized upon in all the usual tabloid rags as composed of desperately selfish, irresponsible, middle-class idiots, more concerned about getting summit selfies than with the fact that people were dying. This fed into a general strategy of the government seeking to blame anyone and everyone rather than take responsibility for their own failure to act and complete lack of strategy.

The outdoor community, of course, had no resistance to this - nor to the flagrant abuse of police resources and powers that was the spectacle of Derbyshire police force shitposting about walkers in the Peak with drones. How could we resist this, when the BMC itself had already condemned anyone who dared go out for a nice walk on a sunny day as dangerous and irresponsible?

Accepting this line will haunt us for sometime, too. Because, sure, we'll be out of this strict phase of lockdown in a month or two. But, social distancing is likely to continue for the rest of the year or longer to avoid serious and serial NHS crises. In this context, how will those who called climbing 'too risky' justify beginning to climb again before... 2024?

As I say, people gave up their right to climb far too quickly and eagerly. Yes, those who live in London for whom the local crag is "only 3 hours away" should not be travelling to crags. But, those of us who have hills and crags within walking distance could be engaging is safe forms of walking, fell running and climbing right now, except that we have collectively conceded that these activities are unacceptable.

And, no - anticipating the inevitable come back - I am not selfishly climbing despite the ban. I'm bored at home like many others, and count myself lucky that boredom is the worst of it for the time being.

You say people gave up their right to climb too quickly. In fact, they bowed to peer pressure. That is a different thing from having your rights taken away from you, as anyone who has lived in a real dictatorship will probably affirm. But so far our dis agreement has been largely about semantics.

What I really don't understand is this: the "separate issue" which you refer to has you criticising people for "ranting" that climbing should be stopped prematurely, while conceding in the next sentence that the government's tardiness in locking things down has probably cost thousands of lives.

That suggests to me that the people you classify as "ranters" had got the right idea: life was indeed going on as normal but shouldn't have been: pubs should have been closed earlier, advice about staying home given earlier,  beauty spot car parks closed earlier , sports events and stadiums, racecourse - all should have been shut down earlier.and that the government and not just the climbing community would have been better off taking notice of these early warnings.  Instead we had a steady dribble of acceptance that things were, actually, quite serious after all and that has got us where we are now.

No doubt the "ranters" would like to see it that way! Maybe some did, but FWIW I didn't. I made a decision to stop cragging for various reasons: foremost of those being a risk assessment (based on my specific circumstances) of spreading the virus. Also on the list was the look of the thing to the wider community, with the associated risk of getting climbers a bad name and jeopardising future crag access. Way down the list was the risk of injury and being a burden on the NHS, because I could mitigate that by where, what and how I climbed (no need to stop completely). The "official" position of the BMC and UKC did not count for much, I'm afraid - and what definitely did not influence my decision was the ranting on the UKC forums!

Good to hear that you made your own decision and that you're not blaming anyone on here from taking away your abilty to make a choice.

But it's interesting to see the factors which influenced your decision were generally  the  same thing the "ranters" were concerned about

I'm not sure why you think I'm suggesting "my right was taken away". That's not it at all.

My main point is simply this: if the outdoor community doesn't defend itself, no-one else will. We didn't defend ourselves; we resigned ourselves very quickly to the idea that climbing, hiking, etc. "are dangerous and so it's immoral to carry on"; and then we gleefully took part in the general blame game.

I say "we", because I'm less interested in individual responses and more in the collective response.

Completely agree. There is a parallel with the last major Foot and Mouth outbreak; the NFU is a very effective trade union, and they argued successfully for the closure of the countryside. The BMC and other outdoor groups were bounced into supporting this.

When the crisis was over, the farming lobby were very reluctant to open up again; they were gleefully exercising their “right” to ship animals round the country, whilst seeking to keep byways, bridleways and paths securely closed....just in case.

I don’t remembers any collective action against this. As a community, we simply sucked it up until the farmers got bored.

once the current situation changes

once people are going to work again.

My mistake . You didn't say your rights were taken away . You said climbers had given away others '  rights. Sorry.

Well you could, but you would need to:

a) Be quick as one hour is the suggested duration including the walk

b) Not hang around as you must be exercising not waiting/resting

c) Be only with people from your household

d) Not be risking strain on the NHS, so low risk

Seems not feasible right now, like I said once outdoor leisure is allowed you will  be fine.

these two are either entirely invented or off the cuff remarks given by individual Ministers to the press.  

a) Nonsense. 

b) Why would you hang around on some low ball, easy bouldering?

c) Personally, I wouldn't even be with her! 

d) See b)

Perfectly feasible, and infinitely safer than the Tour de Birch Vale that's happening on my road this month. Two have whizzed down it at about 30 as I've typed this. 

From my point of view the important question is when will Gwynedd and Snowdonia NP lift the access restrictions? When they do I'll definitely be getting out climbing. And if they don't do it promptly when the lockdown starts to be eased I'll probably go anyway. It's unbelievably frustrating driving to work through the mountains every day and not being able to stop to go for a walk, and doubly so being able to follow some rights of way from my doorstep but not others.
 

Which leads me to another point - it seems like lots of people in this thread don't realize that loads of people are still going to work. The advice has always been work from home unless you can't, in which case travel to work and work itself is permitted.

Sounds like bouldering is fine from what you are saying.

Either way I don't see the police showing up to the crag!

I guess the problem is that people really did turn up in huge crowds at honeypot locations. This is what changed my mind. Not any 'shitposting' or 'hysteria'. I found this hard to understand because out of the last ten times I went climbing over this winter, I only saw another team twice. However on the weekend of 20-22 March it seemed like people were incapable of taking even basic precautions. This isn't really their fault. Government/ scientific messaging had been confusing and most of those 'shamed' by the media and on here were following the government advice to the letter. But it was turning into a confused mess and it reached the point where the only feasible solution seemed to be simple blanket instructions to stay at home.

I would prefer to think we (as a country) could come up with some simple unambiguous rules e.g. "No travel between regions (still not happened), no international flights unless for essential medical/ logistical reasons (still not happened), no work if not a) from home or b) essential to health, food supply or utilities. No meeting in groups larger than x, no bars, cafes etc" That would still allow occasional basic human interaction and recreational activity including potentially climbing or cycling or horse riding or whatever. This would also avoid treating people like economic production units to be maintained while they can work and then warehoused... However maybe we're just not capable of that as a society.

The "social distancing" is by far the most onerous aspect of the lockdown and the least sustainable. It's also the only valid reason the comparatively unimportant activity of 'rock climbing' is currently forbidden (for those near crags anyway). Social interaction between individuals is very much essential and a basic human right. Even prisoners get visitors. Those thinking the current strict social distancing can be maintained beyond a few months are living inside their own rectums.

Usual caveats apply, naturally

I think quite a few people on here forget that there are lots of people living on their own for whom social distancing means contact with other humans. This is barely sustainable for the length of time its gone on for let alone months on end. 
 

not seeing friends or family in person is by far the hardest bit of this for me much harder than not climbing and I’m fortunate enough to be living with my girlfriend so I’m not miss out on human interaction completely.

I think certain posters have displayed an ignorance in belittling how difficult this will be for some. I've been checking in periodically (Nope; over the phone "shitposters"  nah nah :P) with a couple of people who do live alone and could find it very hard. For me its no big deal for a few weeks to a couple of months, but I live with my family and have a big garden with trees in it, one of which is now supporting a jamming crack... Many seem to be making an assumption that everyone is just as lucky.

However we need to be cautious and it seems that sometimes it might be right to use a sledgehammer when you don't have something more precise to hand. I know quite a few people who've had this virus (from a single busy indoor event). It is way more serious than some are presenting it as. Normally robust people are getting completely wrecked by it and some could still not pull through. I'd hate to go and see one of my friends for that basic human interaction and have them die from sars...

This is a strong possibility but the other factor here is that general compliance may well weaken over time and people will start getting out climbing as part of that general trend.

Besides, once shops and most workplaces are open, there will be so many people travelling again that it would be impossible to police travel restrictions anyway.

Imagine getting pulled over on the A55. “Where are you going please, sir?” “Llanberis. I want to visit the specialist outdoor shops there because they’ve got outdoor gear which I can’t get hold of in the shops back home in Birmingham. It’s specialist stuff so I have to try it on or fiddle around with it and so can’t really buy it online. Also I’m keen to support the small independent shops there.” Which would all be true. Whether I opt to also go climbing is a separate matter. “Ok, on you go then.” I’m not saying I would do that, just giving an example of how it would be difficult to enforce.

As for social distancing, as I’ve said above it’s perfectly possible to maintain it while climbing. Certainly a lot more so than on public transport etc. I suspect such comparisons will not be lost on a lot of climbers.

So whilst I agree with your point, I suspect that in practice different people will approach any remaining restrictions differently.

One other important factor which I didn’t mention in my post above is availability of accommodation. If campsites, hostels and so on remain closed, some people will find it difficult to get to some areas. Not many would travel from London to North Wales for a day, for example. That could result in areas like the Peak getting mobbed while further away areas remain less busy. Could be a good time to have a van?

But that's only a suggestion, made in passing by Gove and one or two others. It's not in the official guidelines. Various other suggestions have been made for appropriate durations depending on activity and location. I went for a long walk today (about 4 hours) during which I distanced very effectively. I'm lucky to be able to do that where I live, of course, but I don't feel that I did anything wrong.

Fair points but it’s not so simple because it’s possible that a rules based lockdown would be followed by one based on advice / guidance. In the week before the lockdown there was debate about whether climbing was still ok and that was partly because there were no actual rules in place. Now even rules are open to interpretation (strictly, currently there is nothing in law to prevent climbing on your own or with other household members - however most people interpret the rules more narrowly and there are good reasons for that approach at the moment). As soon as you go from rules to advice or guidance, the position becomes less clear. Strictly, advice or guidance could be disregarded, though it might not be wise to do so. Moreover, advice or guidance are not legally enforceable, unlike legislation.

As I mentioned above, there are likely to be many shades of grey depending on personal circumstances (who you climb with and where), as well as the wider picture (NHS / virus position, status of other restrictions and so on). I suspect avoiding non essential travel and social distancing could be with us till autumn next year, at least in advisory form. I doubt most people would be prepared to wait that long. Not just with climbing but with everything in life - various things which are not essential now will become (or at least seem) essential with time.

Lots of good points there, though I don’t necessarily agree that the lockdown should have been imposed earlier - it’s far too early in this pandemic to be drawing any firm conclusions about that. Regarding the BMC, they must have felt compelled to act, perhaps reluctantly, but they jumped the gun. The BMC statement came out during the day on the 23rd. Boris announced the official lockdown that evening.

Now I get why the BMC brought out their statement but they didn’t think through the implications very well because now some people will be looking to them to announce that climbing and hillwalking are ok again, at some point. They will then be in a very tricky position because some people will argue that it’s too soon while others will argue that it’s too late. Not just BMC members and the wider outdoor community but also the media and government bodies. Of course they could opt to say nothing and I suspect that is what they will do - the ostrich approach. However that won’t gain them many admirers either. As with many things Covid related, there are no ‘best’ options here. Not putting out the statement at all would have attracted criticism as well. 

The thing about that weekend is it was a rare sunny weekend in March and a lot of people must have figured that proper lockdown was on the way so they decided to take the opportunity to get out ‘one last time’. The confused government messaging that week did not help either and even with better messaging it would have taken some time for the message to sink in.

Similarly, we will probably see crowds on the first weekend after restrictions are lifted, particularly if it’s sunny. With a bit of time, it should self regulate, with people seeking out less visited crags / mountains. Snowdon is in a league of its own unfortunately.

Advocating for access is one of the BMC's core policies:

"a. Freedom to Climb and Walk.
Cliffs and mountains are part of our natural heritage. The BMC believes that access to cliffs and mountains in a responsible, sustainable manner, is a basic human right. As a general principle, access should be free of charge and with as little restriction as possible."

They shouldn't have cheerleaded the Welsh Assembly and the NP closing off access to huge areas of Wales and right now they should be campaigning for access rights to be restored.

The main thing will let me climb again is when people stop judging me for doing so.

I could very easily at the moment walk for 20 minutes to Caley and do some easy bouldering. I wouldn't need to drive, don't have a car at the moment anyway as work have taken it away. I doubt I'd pass anyone, as I walked up there yesterday evening and saw no one. And the chances of injuring myself are fairly remote, I've seen videos of people climbing on kitchen furniture and their house walls that look much more dangerous, never mind doing DIY.

I have enough worries with my elderly neighbour sat in her garden asking me where I'm going with an accusing glance whenever I leave the house. So I'll only start going out climbing when it appears socially acceptable to do so and I'm not going to end up with someone filming me and putting it up on social media, claiming they've never seen me around before and that I look like I've driven up from London. I'd guess that moment will come once people are told it is ok to drive into the countryside and go for a walk again. 

Well the BMC seems to have become the unjustified target and a victim of Covid fuelled vitriol on some of these seriously ill-informed threads and posts and some of the comments that are directed at myself are quite honestly insulting, upsetting and verging on slanderous. Nearly half of the BMC’s staff have been furloughed and the remaining staff are working flat out, and everyone is working well in excess of contracted hours, frequently outside of our areas of expertise, just to keep the organisation going and to support members.

I’ll try to respond to some of the comments here in an objective manner but in reality, I’ve not had the time and have no intention of trawling through every post to respond to every individual’s unique perspective and personal criticism on what is the biggest issue to have faced humanity since the second world war, simply because it impacts on their personal situation to be able to go bouldering or climbing a few meters from their front door at a time when thousand are dying and the impact on the population as a whole is totally unprecedented. The advice  given by the BMC has by the very nature of the circumstances we are in, had to be generic and aimed at the mass population couldn’t and can't be tailored to everyone’s unique individual circumstance.

Firstly, the situation surrounding the legality of going climbing.  Apologies if some of if this is basic and it's not intended to be patronising but is intyended to give some clarity to the BMC’s situation. The regulations are different between Wales and England and there is little doubt the law is blunt, rushed, is aimed at controlling the population as a whole, is poorly written and gives little scope for individual circumstances or nuance. The advice the BMC had seen (from a barrister) and the formal advice we’ve received from North Wales Police (who are the lead body for the enforcement of these regulation for Wales) is that, quite simply and in absolute terms, everyone must stay indoors except for certain exceptions. As most people are aware one of those exceptions is for “exercise”.  What “exercise” is, is not defined in the statutory instrument or the guidance notes attached to the statutory instrument. As an aside, the main difference between Wales and England here is that in Wales, citizens are only allowed out once a day for exercise.  The purpose for the exception to allow people out of their homes for exercise is simply for maintenance of basic health and well-being and the advice we’ve had from a barrister is as follows: -

“…….is that the legislation is unclear and the reality is that transgressions are fact sensitive. 20 mins bouldering at a local deserted crag within quick walking distance from home is not the same as a day trip to Stanage. This nuance cannot be easily communicated, however, and blanket do-not-climb advice is the safest option". "The coronavirus regulations say you are not allowed to leave the house without reasonable excuse, which includes taking exercise. The exercise must therefore also be reasonable. "Reasonable" is open to interpretation, but in my view it is likely to be interpreted harshly by the courts, given that the regulations that impose the restrictions have taken away people's liberty and livelihoods. The purpose of the provision allowing exercise is undoubtedly to allow the population to remain healthy during the lockdown period. Exercise that looks more like someone going out and pursuing a hobby, or having fun, rather than just exercise for the sake of maintaining health is unlikely to be considered reasonable in that context, which would include climbing.”

Anecdotal evidence from police forces around the country seem to support this. We have heard of fixed penalties being issued to people bouldering on the Ormes; formal warning issued to climbers at other locations; people being formally warned and threatened with fines when walking 100m from their own house to go swimming in a nearby lake, etc. Three walkers attempted to walk up Snowdon on Monday and have been reported on summons by the police (i.e. that will be dealt with by a court, who can issue unlimited fines).  The formal and rather generic advice we’ve had, unedited and verbatim, and it took a lot of work to even get this response from various police forces, is that “exercise” should be defined by the guidance issued on the government’s Covid website –

“'People must stay at home as much as possible to reduce the spread of the virus. But you can also still go outside once a day for a walk, run, cycle. ''We advise you to stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily.' 'You can still go to the park for outdoor exercise once a day but only by yourself or within your household, not in groups.' 'We ask you to keep 2 metres apart from others outside your household at all times when outdoors.” (and, my words here, even here the police have it wrong, as this is in fact a legal requirement in Wales!)

BMC’s advice is no different to any of the other national representative bodies for recreation – British Canoeing, Swim England, Canoe Wales, British Caving, etc. A letter and press release, coordinated by the Outdoor Industries Association and supported by over 30 recreational bodies, essentially saying the same thing was also issued at the same time as the BMC's advice came out. 

In addition, rightfully or wrongly, landowners, especially in rural areas do not want to see people on their land at this time. We need to work with these people to restore access when this is all over. Many of the sites we go climbing on are on private land with no right of access. Two landowners have already told the BMC,  that they are permanently withdrawing hard earned access agreements, as climbers have been on their land (having travelled there by car from built up areas over 20 miles away)  during the lock down period.

Secondly, the matter of closures of access land and paths in Wales.

Following what has been described by the media and local authorities as “the busiest weekend ever in Snowdonia and other honeypots”, immediately following the appeal by both governments asking people not to travel and to stay at home, Welsh Government imposed a duty on local authorities, the National Trust and National Parks to close all areas where there was a likelihood of mass gatherings or where there as a risk of the virus being transmitted. We at the BMC were aware that this announcement was to be made later that day when we produced our video and the article asking people to stay away from the hills and to refrain from climbing. UKC had already produced their article and decided to “close” the logbooks before the BMC asked climbers to refrain from climbing. It would have been very odd for the BMC and UKC to have been at odds here.  Neither we or any other recreational body, or even the local authorities were consulted or given any opportunity to comment on or make observations on these closures or the enactment of this law, we were simply told it was going to happen. 

Following what can only be described as whole scale carnage of the local shops, services, a significant  number of mountain rescue incidents (more on this later), literally thousands of camper vans and caravans and mass migration of people to holiday homes in rural areas with limited services, the huge, vitriolic and at times aggressive response from residents and politicians in these areas against the outdoor movement was, like many aspects of this pandemic,  unprecedented. Some estimates suggested an extra 50,000 people descend on northern Snowdonia alone that weekend, more than doubling the resident population.

In order to deter this mass movement, we publicly supported the closures of iconic and symbolic venues such as Snowdon, Pen y Fan and similar places. However, neither we or any other recreational bodies were consulted on the details and would have had little influence on that decision. We have objected to the scale of closures, we have written and been lobbying Welsh Government, The National Parks and local authorities to have some of these areas better defined and to be less extensive. I am daily on the phone  or email to officials and Ministers regarding this topic. The positive influence that we have had is that along with Ramblers Wales and supported by almost every other recreational body in Wales, we managed (so far anyway) to stop Welsh Government from closing every public path in Wales as they initially intended to do. To say we “capitulated” early and that our response was “hysterical” is insulting and utterly wrong.

Thirdly and there really has been some very ill-informed comments on this topic here, that of accidents and emergency services. The impact on the emergency services, especially volunteer rescue teams of even a simple ankle injury to a climber of boulderer at this time is significant and real. Most rescue teams are down to less than half capacity due to self-isolation, sickness, and as many rescue teams members are also front line medical personnel who are not now available. Mtn Rescue teams do not have any specialist Covid PPE for treating casualties and as many people with Covid can be totally asymptomatic, every casualty has to be treated and assumed as though they are positive for the virus.  PPE for rescue teams dealing with casualties for the foreseeable future, is essentially and at all times, full waterproofs that are fully done up, very basic surgical mask, double gloved, safety glasses and facemask/goggles. This has to be worn at all times when within two metres of the casualty and cannot be taken off for the duration of a rescue. Professional medical staff in a hospital environment are struggling to maintain this in an indoor environment but doing this on the side of a mountain or on a crag or boulder is going to be near impossible. Due to the high risk of transmission, Teams will not be carrying out some basic life support such as airway adjuncts in unconscious patients, most pain relief (I/v or I/N) will not be given and many of the basic medical interventions will just not happen. There will be a serious delay in any response and helicopter assistance (air ambulance or Coastguard) will only be for immediate life-threatening cases and even then will be severely delayed due to added precautions.  Mountain Rescue Teams, Coastguard and RNLI are all desperately pleading for people to stay away and avoid any potential risky activities.  Do you really want to be responsible for causing the first death of a volunteer rescuer from Covid 19 because you slipped off a boulder problem? With over 40 deaths of front-line medical staff in the UK (just look at that horrific statement on its own and consider its implication and then try to justify why its ok for you to go bouldering on your nearby crag!), in reality it’s only a matter to time before a volunteer rescuer acquires this diseases from a casualty and possibly dies of this disease.

Lastly – be assured we are working incredibly flat out and literally like never before, using every avenue open to us, making full use of every network and influence we have on governments, national parks at all levels, including Ministerial to make sure that the right to exercise is continued and that the restrictions are in place for the minimum amount of time needed. But we do need context…and the fact that nearly a thousand people a day are dying puts our “need” for climbing at this time in perspective. 

I think I’ll just finish this response by referring to the final paragraph in the excellent UKC article “On the Front Line” by Jerome Mowat, that says it all really “And the climbing community as a whole for taking responsibility for their actions, closing the gyms and prohibiting outdoor climbing. Sometimes these measures can feel quite abstract, are they really necessary? But I assure you, they are. This may be one of the few times we truly are all in this together”.

Thanks and bear with us, we really are working flat out to protect the interest of climbers and hillwalkers at this time

Elfyn Jones

BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

I agree, I live by myself and my boyfriend lives about 50 minutes away. It does make it hard not being able to see him and enagage face to face with friends and family. I am lucky to live in a fairly rural area and do see people I know at a distance most days on my walks or cycles. So that does help a bit.

I did see people trad climbing at my local crag on my walk yesterday. I walk past there a few times a week, as it's only about 3kms from my house. This is the first time since the request not to climb has been made that I've seen anyone there. 

Austria has just announced that the mountains will be accessible again at the start of May. Particularly for ski touring.  They have also said that non team sports will be acceptable, giving athletics and horse riding as examples.  This seems sensible and I expect that we may see something similar.

Thanks for posting here Elfyn. Its really good to hear that work is going on behind the scenes to protect our access rights. With regards to your comments about ill-informed posts, how do you expect us to be anything but unless we are kept updated? We are understandably worried about losing access to our mountains. Many (most?) of us on here are members of the BMC and we pay our subs so that you can go on doing your excellent work preserving our access to these places.

The closures negatively effect those of us who live here as well as the visitors who came a few weeks ago. Since that weekend non-essential travel has been restricted, so I'm unsure what the justification is for the closures continuing. Climbers and hillwalkers have a strong tradition of personal responsibility which must surely extend to limiting our activities in this crisis. That said, its only possible to exercise personal responsibility given the freedom to do so.

Just on Radio 2 news now, Government’s new guidance to police suggests that driving to the countryside for exercise where it’s length is much longer than the drive is to be permitted. That’ll put the cat among the pigeons..!

So according to that advice I could drive 5hours to the cairngorms so long as i went on a multi-day walk?

what ludicrous advise to give.

most of the arguments here and elsewhere are because the government has left it up to us to decide what is reasonable, shock horror that everyone has different ideas.

The Chief Constable of Derbyshire Police will be having a mental meltdown!

It increasingly feels like the government is having a meltdown to. No plan, no clue just a series of useless soundbites. I know i shouldn't be surprised but you do tend to hope that beneath it all there is some sort of strategy but it would appear that's not the case.

Maybe they’re happy that numbers have stabilised and are allowing some low risk recreation. Who knows! 

then say that, make it policy and add it to the advice. 

Yet, according to the same BBC report has told police to stop people sitting on park benches 'for too long'. When I am on a run an hour's sit down is not enough!

Have you considered that the BMC would have lost all future credibility with the bodies it needs to negotiate with if it had insisted on full continued access regardless of the spread of the virus? It would've been even worse than if they had been named ClimbBritain.

It was a fast moving situation and I generally felt like they did about as well as could be expected given the government and epidemiologists giving confusing and often contradictory advice.

When the case and fatality numbers are much lower and widespread testing is available I'm sure they'll be working hard to influence how things are opened up again.

Sorry I’m not a member of government

No you’re responses are too coherent.

Not meaning to be rude, but this sums up a slight issue with our collective mindset as I see it. The issue is that although direction has been given, people feel as if they need to be involved in all the discussions which surround it. You don't, just follow the direction and when something changes you'll be told about it. Until then you know what you need to know, so carry on carrying on. 

I think the same issue arises when people start looking to blame the government for its various decisions. Essentially everyone thinks that they know best and that whoever is in the position to actually have an effect is either incompetent, lazy, selfish or whatever. Chances are, whoever it is is trying their best, and it may not be perfect or what you'd do but then humans aren't not prefect (intentional) and we haven't placed ourselves in a position to effect change anyway. If you want to be in politics then do it. If you want to arrange land access then do it. 

So in summary, just because you've got a platform to complain doesn't mean you should. Learn to accept when you have no control or influence over a situation. View people working on your behalf with a more favourable lens. 

Now come on we live in a democracy we as a collective are entitled to criticise those in power. The government need to be held to account they are not doing a good job of managing this crisis or communicating with the public. However personal attacks especially on those in the bmc are completely unwarranted. 

Right now is not the time for campaigning for access to be restored but it would be great if the BMC could get its voice heard once restrictions start getting lifted. As a few people have said above, it’s likely that social distancing will be with us till next year. I’d like to see the BMC join forces with other outdoor sport associations to push the case that:

- outdoor activities are beneficial for people’s physical and mental health;

- 

Right now is not the time for campaigning for access to be restored but it would be great if the BMC could get its voice heard once restrictions start getting lifted. As a few people have said above, it’s likely that social distancing will be with us till next year. I’d like to see the BMC join forces with other outdoor sport associations to push the case that:

- outdoor activities are beneficial for people’s physical and mental health, so it’s important to resume these activities as soon as reasonably possible;

- with certain precautions, it is possible to maintain social distancing while doing outdoor activities and in any case the risk of infection is relatively low compared to many everyday settings such as shops and workplaces or indeed team sports;

- it’s ok to travel by foot / car / public transport to take part in outdoor activities;

- access should therefore be restored and the authorities shouldn’t hassle people about it.

Yeah in general I agree but I'll reiterate my point that just because you can criticise doesn't mean that you should. I'd guess that it is likely to have a negative effect on your peers while having zero effect on government. In addition, assuming that people are doing their best rather than that they are intentionally malicious or uncaring will change how you see their actions and the way in which you react to them. 

I'm not particularly bothered by the communication or lack thereof regarding details. The gross message is simple and easy to understand and adhere to.  

Also I've not been glued to these forums and don't habitually post but I'm sure one of the many well read people on here has drawn parallels between this and influenza a century ago. In comparison our government is doing very well. Any decision is a balancing act rather than a right / wrong answer and I'm sure people are losing sleep over trying to make the least damaging decisions. 

Consider that extra pressure placed on anyone making these decisions may come from a vocal but passionate group (say us, wanting to go climbing) and this may change their decision making, not necessarily for the better. 

Thank you for the detailed response. There is a lot of useful detail here which most people will not have been aware of. You could have forestalled some of the criticism through a better communication strategy - for example, a more detailed follow up statement and/or UKC article. I appreciate that people are busy but the reality is that if you don’t communicate what you are doing, it erodes trust and you certainly won’t get credit from BMC members and others in the mountaineering community. Communication is key. So thank you once again for taking the time to explain things but I do think that these points needs to be communicated much more prominently as relatively few people would be following this thread.

As I said, I can understand why the BMC brought out its statement. I’m not convinced it was particularly wise but what’s done is done. The difficulty is that the BMC has arguably boxed itself into a corner when it comes to an exit strategy, which is what this thread is about.

On the point about the legality of climbing, it is clear from the barrister’s opinion that the position is not clear cut, particularly in England. The legislation is certainly not as detailed as it could have been - perhaps deliberately so, perhaps due to oversight and being rushed. Different barristers and magistrates could take different views on it. The reality is that it seems unlikely that a fine would get challenged in court by anyone prepared to pay for top level legal representation and pursue it to Crown Court level or higher so as to set a nationwide precedent (someone with a better knowledge of the criminal justice system might correct me). So we might never get to find out what the Courts would really make of it.

Having said that, getting fined for walking 100m for a swim - that’s got to be in the same category as the police officer telling people their kids couldn’t play in their own front garden! The police have at times shown a glaring misunderstanding of the rules - perhaps inevitable given that they are new.

Incidentally, according to the BBC, National Police Chiefs Council guidance out today stated that it’s ok to drive somewhere to exercise as long as “far more time” is spent walking than driving (haven’t seen the guidance myself so don’t know if it actually refers to walking as opposed to exercise). What is meant by far more time is anyone’s guess...

Low risk recreation sounds like something Johnson is fond of. Especially now that he’s had Covid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/16/driving-for-exercise-allowed-...

There's a link to the actual pdf in the article. Driving to exercise (eg to go for a long walk) is permitted and exercising multiple times per day is permitted. Seems like a pretty major relaxation of the rules. In which case surely now is the time to be campaigning for access to be restored?

We digress a bit but I don’t think it’s as simple as people should just do as they are told until told otherwise. On a basic mechanical level that’s right but people have a right to know what the broad outline of an exit plan is or at least be reassured that there is a plan being formed! What we are hearing on this as on many other Covid related issues is just not reassuring at all and that adds to the general angst. Besides, businesses need to know what the broad plan could look like because they need to make decisions which impact people’s jobs. It’s not just curiosity. People and businesses need to know and be reassured.

Sorry whole thread tl:dr just yet.  My thoughts are that there is a spectrum of climbing and there is a spectrum of how people access that climbing (500 mile round trip vs walking out the back gate).  

We, or the BMC, or MR can't expect to apply a single Yes or No solution to this.  Climbers will, as ever, have to make individual assessments or what is justifiable and acceptable.

I have been thinking of the Scottish gent who gave me beta for the Shark's Fin at Hound Tor  a few years ago who was very local.  Why shouldn't he be allowed to go and climb the Shark's Fin from his house with pretty much 0 risk to him or anyone else, as *currently* the NHS does not seem to be being overwhelmed as we had feared? On the other hand you have the situation we had at Pen-y-Pass a few weeks ago.

I don't think it is helpful to second-guess, with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, what decisions were made a few weeks back.  Then it seemed eminently sensible to issue a blanket cease and desist order as we did not know what the effect on the NHS would be, now things can become a little more nuanced.

Oh sh*t just seen that Joe Brown has moved on to the next level : ( end of post.

Thanks. Hadn’t yet got to the Guardian this evening! There is a reasonable amount of detail in the guidance and it’s all welcome. It seems pretty clear that driving for a long walk is fine in England. Obviously climbing is not specifically mentioned but it is acknowledged that exercise can come in many forms. Of course only on your own or with other household members.

Elfyn, perhaps it’s time to go back to the barrister for their revised view and then bring out a revised statement to set out the BMC’s position?

I’m not saying we should all rush out hillwalking and climbing. Personally, I’m happy to sit it out for the next 3-6 weeks and then see what the lie of the land is (and I’m someone who’s usually out every weekend). Hopefully there will be some relaxations of the rules by the end of May. Lots of people going out now would strain relations with locals and landowners. However some people are already going out climbing and I won’t judge them.

It’s not really a relaxation of the rules though, rather it’s confirmation of what some legal experts have been saying. The English rules are silent on whether you can drive to the place of exercise, how long you can exercise for, what constitutes exercise and how many times a day you can exercise. The implication is that there are no particular restrictions in this regard, subject to it being reasonable. The guidance seems to broadly confirm this view. I haven’t looked at the rules in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. 

This has been an interesting thread to read, not least because it reaffirms something I've seen a great many times before, namely that the BMC are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Whilst it might be an unpopular opinion I think the BMC have got it right where the government ultimately haven't, as they've provided a single, black and white message. Once you go into the grey areas it all gets very confusing, hence the length (and complexity) of this thread. It's really really difficult to figure out quite how the return to climbing and normality will be established, but if one thing is for sure Elfyn - of all people - is likely to be thinking about this around the clock.

With that in mind, can I ask that we all offer Elfyn and the BMC a little more respect for what they're doing and the magnitude of the task they have ahead of them. Misha, we know each other well so please don't take this the wrong way, but the comment quoted above is a good example of this, as it comes across as extremely condescending. 

From a professional point of view I can feel his plight. Writing responses such as the one he's written takes a lot of time and if we want him to channel his efforts into an answer then might I suggest we refrain from questioning his every move and let him make a few moves instead.

I totally agree. This thread is really quite disheartening.

Not sure about this one, most of the comments from all opinions are fairly well articulated and respectful. Thats the problem with a forum, there will be a broad range of opinions and some of them different to those coming from great people who do a lot of work we don't see. As soon as a body or even a member of these fine forums posts an opinion or makes a statement then it's fair game for us to have some chatter about what we think. Doing this in no way degrades the great work people like Elfyn do. How many of us have posted something we feel is completely rational and come back on to find 30 dislikes? I know I have and I'm fine with that, it's healthy to be challenged.

UKC forums are not a 'safe space' but at the same time some light moderation is needed to make sure it doesn't turn into a zoo. Posts can also come across much worse than we intend as the community is reading flat text without seeing the posters face or tone of voice, I've had Rob quite rightly call me out on a sarcastic post a while back which read very different to how I meant it, I quite rightly apologised.

We can be in danger of holding people and orgs sacred to a point where we don't feel we can respectfully disagree in public. This thread has been a really good read and regardless of where we stand on these issues, no doubt we all wish each other well during the next few weeks and look forward to getting back on the rock.

Does that state of affairs just spring up spontaneously? Is it because climbers are a particularly unreasonable and ungrateful lot? Or has the BMC contributed to the situation in some way?

I find the comparison an uncomfortable one. The Government is a regulatory body; the BMC, which most definitely is not, needs to be very careful to keep the tone to that of offering advice to its members. 

It's really really difficult to figure out quite how the return to climbing and normality will be established, but if one thing is for sure Elfyn - of all people - is likely to be thinking about this around the clock.

I'm sure he is. And many other people besides. The process will be complex, and it remains to be seen how influential the BMC will be: it could play a pivotal role; on the other hand, the process could consist of a melting-pot of unilateral decisions by individual climbers, with the BMC doomed to lag behind, repeating bland echoes of the most conservative guidelines. Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that the only people qualified to embrace the complexities are the BMC executive: that attitude will serve only to alienate the membership.

This is teetering on the edge of "don't interfere in matters which don't concern you".  And other people besides Elfyn are busy; their time is also of value: no-one forced him to take time out to post a retort as an individual on a public forum. 

I think it's the very nature of representing a wide range of people. In terms of UKC I always use the example of the feedback I was given a few years ago, where one individual (a trad climber) said we'd got too much bouldering on site while another individual (a boulderer) said we'd got too much trad on site - all within 24hrs of each other. Within a broad church it's hard to keep everyone happy.

The parallel with government was more to highlight how difficult it is for the BMC to form guidance and advice when the information coming from the top is all over the place. Further contributing factors are the variation in how things have been handled by police forces in individual areas, plus the differences between England, Scotland and Wales. 

Either way, I agree with your sentiment that the BMC needs to be careful in its tone, but up until this point I have (as per my previous post) agreed with what they've had to say - not least because it's been clear, concise and to the point. Whether or not you agree with this is another matter, but I'll leave that up to the individual...which leads us on to the next point...

Earlier within this thread you highlighted that the BMC/UKC's stance didn't influence your decision, other factors did; however, when you look at those you've listed did you not think that these were the exact same set of factors the BMC took into consideration before making its own identical assessment? My hope is that as/when the situation changes we'll see not just the BMC, but ourselves, the Ramblers, and Mountain Rescue Teams acting in unison to advise on how best to proceed. Maybe this will happen, maybe it won't, but that would be my hope.

I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth, particularly words such as this, so please refrain from doing so - that is not what I said.

A point well made, although I did feel like some of the comments outlined above had bordered on the personal - hence my standard spiel on etiquette.

That said (and apologies if this didn't come across previously), I'm not suggesting for one moment we all have to agree. As you say, it'd be a disastrous day for debate if we couldn't disagree with each-other respectfully.

Maybe you both have a minute, go put the kettle on and have a brew. If you both met in real life off here I'm sure you'd get along great.

I met somebody off here in real life who came across completely different to how I expected. Flat text on a forum has a lot of space for interpretation, we're all fine people on here.

I have a suspicion that if we all met in person we'd probably end up agreeing on 99% of the above. In fact, we probably do already but it's just so difficult to convey exactly what you mean whilst writing online (weird though that might sound).

With that in mind I'm taking your advice - I'm off to put the kettle on

p.s. if we do ever meeting in reality please say hello, it's always nice to put a name (albeit a username) to face

Yes, certainly - after all, it's a fairly obvious list of reasons, usual items, nothing too contentious! My point was that I have been making decisions based on those factors alone, not following a set of rules just because they came from the BMC, even if much of the reasoning coincides. 

I was paraphrasing, not quoting, hence "this is teetering on the edge of ...". I thought I got the gist of it, it was certainly the way it read to me, that we were all being invited to butt out and leave the experts to it - but if you feel I distorted your meaning to an unacceptable degree, then apologies. 

Good response, and sorry if I took the last para a little too seriously - I think I needed that cuppa olddirtydoggy recommended more than I thought I did

Lockdown is getting to all of us. Living with me at the moment is horrendous, my wife deserves a knighthood.

Can you explain how, other than soloing, it is possible to go climbing while maintaining social distancing? I can't imagine I've ever spent a single day climbing without being closer than 2m to my climbing partner at least some of the time. It just doesn't work.

Or do you mean that social distancing is relative and the rules will at some point be relaxed to allow a minimum number of (non-same household) people one can meet up with at any one time? If so, then I don't see a problem - we can just carry on when it's appropriate again to do so. 

Shunting? Bouldering? 

My circumstances could be justified perhaps. My wife is my main partner and we have a section of crag within walking distance near us that's seldom visited. There are routes I'm familiar with and well within grade and when walking up there a few days back we did discuss the idea of whether it was right or not.

Opinions do seem to be calming a little bit. Most of us are staying off the rock but some might feel that a common sense approach to each individual circumstance could be a better way.

We've decided to stay off for now as we asked 2 questions; If the cops caught us, how would that go? and secondly, could we be adding to the contagion? So one question was selfish and the other in relation to the greater good.

I think we'll be reviewing things when the deaths start dropping a lot.

Hanging belays. Bolted hanging belays. Separate bolted hanging belays with hammocks. 

Seriously, it would not be outwith the wit of a decent pair of climbers to keep 2 metres apart. 

Use detachable 2 metre hula hoops. Or fru fru dresses.

People are getting desperate. Its getting warmer. We ain't getting younger. 

Thirdly, whatwould your presence on the crag suggest to other climbers and passers by?

Dunno, that you'd decided to go climbing?

Shunting is essentially soloing on a top rope. I'll give you bouldering.

In theory, perhaps. In the real world, I'm not so sure.

Considerably safer though. And the most obvious way is that people climb with members of their household this covers a huge number of people although leaves other’s out I’m sure. 

No problem, then - and in my case it was a hot bath and a beer. Feeling much more reasonable and conciliatory now

Soloing and shunting are two different things entirely. Soloing would indicate a ground fall if you came off, shunting means you'd slump on to your rope. You really cannot compare the two, especially given that any form of top roping, I'd personally go above and beyond with the belay.. unlike normal leading/following, mostly because I wouldn't be able to see it. 

Yeah I know the difference thanks. But whether it's free soloing, rope soloing, or toprope soloing on a shunt, you're still on your own.

I expect it leaves out the vast majority of climbers! So not an obvious solution at all.

I get what you’re saying but my criticism of the BMC is that they brought out a black and white statement and since then there has been nothing. No updates on the lobbying they’ve been doing and the legal advice they’ve taken (turns out they’ve been working behind the scenes and that’s great but no one knew that). No attempt to update guidance as further information becomes available. My comment was meant to be a constructive suggestion but I appreciate it could come across as condescending. I should have phrased it better.

Full credit to Dan for his article today. As ever, UKC are on the ball and keeping us informed. Perhaps the BMC will bring out something similar shortly but at the moment it kind of feels like UKC are doing the BMC’s job.

This is the single biggest issue to have affected our little mountaineering world since the last foot and mouth outbreak almost 20 years ago. I would expect the BMC to be all over it and to be communicating what they are doing. 

Social distancing is a broad concept. The recommendation is to keep at least 2m apart and avoid busy places. Of course in reality it is often impossible to keep 2m apart, for example at the supermarket, but that’s not the end of the world (otherwise we’d all have had Covid by now). You also have to consider the length of time spent within that 2m radius. Of course if someone coughs on you, you could catch the virus in an instant, so to speak, but generally it’s prolonged close contact that’s the issue as the likelihood of transmission increase with time (15 minutes has been mentioned but that’s only a rough guide).

How does that apply to climbing? It would be difficult, though not impossible, to remain 2m apart throughout the day. However if you limit yourself to single pitch roped climbing it’s entirely possible to reduce the ‘less than 2m’ contact to a few seconds at a time a few times a day, if that. The only time you might not be able to avoid it is when topping out and even then it might be perfectly possible depending on how much space is available.

In normal times, climbing partners are in close contact for much longer of course but that’s because in normal times it’s not an issue. If you actually force yourself to do it, I think it’s entirely possible. It would be awkward at times (placing gear on the ground rather than handing it over) but possible. Whether most people would actually do it is another question.

Your other point about exercise / social interaction being allowed in small groups is a very good one. It’s possible that SD rules would be relaxed to permit groups of two (or slightly more) and that could be key for a resumption of climbing with non household members. There could still be other restrictions of course.

Which locations/crags/cliffs are these?
If I was one of those climbers reading that, I'd feel like a total ...!

One other thought: if mass rapid testing on demand were to become available, you and your partner could get tested on say Friday, get some kind of green code on your phone and you’re good to go on Saturday. In fact you’d probably be good for a few days as even if you were to get infected it is believed that there is a ‘grace period’ before you become contagious. Clearly research is needed to determine the typical length of this non-contagious period and of course mass testing would be required.

This isn’t just for climbing - these are some of the key things they will need to sort out to enable general life to go back to near normal. Based on experience to date, we’ll be waiting a while...

When the pubs open, the crags are open.

Not a bad idea but climbing would be at the end of a long queue for such a development. 

Much more noise needs to be made about the withdrawal of access.

Your post here, in the middle of a long, tedious, circular debate is the first I have heard of it, and is easily lost as readers scroll through. 

UKC, is this news not headline worthy? 

Well, here in Finland climbing/outdoor stuff was never forbidden to begin with (and only lockdown that happened was closing the borders of Uusimaa province (it has already ended).  The guidance has always been (and still is) to avoid contact as much as possible with others (and gatherings of 10 or more people are forbidden). In fact, the government has advised people to head outdoors. So (outdoor) climbing has actually been on the rise here in Finland (naturally, as the weather has been cooperating and pretty much all the indoor gyms are closed).

And to be fair, even during the Uusimaa lockdown, even the boulder crags that are accessible with public transport in Helsinki region have not been super busy. And in fact never more than 8 people in one boulder/sector.

But even Uusimaa is low population density by many standards, and Finns generally keep their social distance anyway (waiting for bus/tram https://imgur.com/gallery/L9KsQ -> video about the same thing https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2237109036312405, the video is from and add... but still). And the same "rules" have always been applied also when climbing... stuff like Stanage popular could never happen here...

Presumably it’s a threat to withdraw access and the BMC are negotiating and hoping it will be withdrawn. Whether to make the crags in question public is no doubt a delicate judgement. But I agree that this should be publicised much better, at least in general terms - “landowners have threatened to withdraw access at two major crags in X area”, that kind of thing. It would get people to stop and think. But this is the BMC, who are fairly rubbish at communicating with their membership. That’s not an insult, it’s a statement of fact unfortunately.

Re the testing, I didn’t mean that it would be available specifically for climbing. What I meant is if on demand testing were to become generally available, it would help. Not holding my breath though!

As you say, Finland is quite different in terms of population density and level of cases. All I can say is, lucky you, enjoy!

Absolutely. Maybe its a sensitive issue for the BMC and the Ramblers right now because they are trying to keep relations with SNP and the Welsh Assembly cordial and productive, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't be lobbying Welsh Ministers to get access restrictions lifted. It seems like access rights were withdrawn as a kneejerk reaction to that incredibly busy weekend and the angry reaction of a vocal minority of locals. There was a lot of coverage of particularly aggressive signs and behaviour around Bala which maybe explains why the Arans were included. Since they were put in place non-essential travel has been banned and police have been given the powers to stop people on the roads and send them home, so I don't think that the same imperative exists anymore. However, if they wait until the lockdown ends to restore access they run the risk of opening the floodgates - basically advertising "Come to Wales!" at the same time as everyone leaves their house and starts thinking about a holiday. Much better to relax the restrictions earlier and allow local people to start using their local footpaths again in a responsible way.

If anyone's interested in emailing Welsh ministers their contact details are here:

https://gov.wales/contacting-welsh-government-ministers

For reference here's the information on closures, including maps:

https://www.snowdonia.gov.wales/authority/coronavirus/routes-closed

I would come at it from a slightly different angle. If it is the case that access has been (threatened to be) removed, the BMC should publicise it as a way of saying ‘look what happens if you don’t refrain from climbing’. As I’ve said on the other thread, relationships with stakeholders including landowners are, to my mind, the main reason we should refrain from climbing now.

In the US understandably everything closed down quickly - and that's totally understandable, until this first wave is under control we have to be aggressive. There has then been time to consider and look at the stats and make informed choices over what can reopen (in most areas) - other areas are opening up way too fast and we'll have second and third waves of infections.

As an example NY, CT and NJ - 3 of the worst hit areas in the world - just opened up Marina's. Boat rentals remain closed. But they are slowly trying to reduce restrictions as the wave is passing, but slowly making informed decisions.

I think this will happen for other activities.

I'm surprised wild swimming is banned (well police aren't allowing it) though (Elfyn mentioned someone getting in trouble for that).

You can't see indoor walls opening up for a long time but allowing more recreation will probably happen as this first wave passes and the health care infrastructure is no longer overwhelmed. We aren't going to eradicate it through social distancing, just keep the R value low and not overwhelm resources.

It does seem at odds with best communication. Two climbers were allegedly also arrested in North Wales, yet despite my best efforts I've failed to find any report on it. North Wales Police happily tweeted about two kite surfers who were sent packing back to the midlands with a fine. You'd think they'd be highlighting how climbers were disobeying the guidance, especially to the point of arrest. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should be out climbing. I certainly don't feel like I personally can justify the risk at the moment. I'm not implying any criticism of the BMC because other than Elfyn's post above I don't know what they're up to or what the situation is with their relationship with other stakeholders. Regardless, I think the principle of defending our access rights is important and I think everyone who feels strongly about it has a right to make themselves heard.

What’s the source of that info about arrest? I can understand a fine but arrest would presumably be due to refusing to give their details or something worse rather than the underlying activity.

I agree re fighting for access, was just pointing out that if there are already access tensions, there is merit in publicising these examples (without necessarily providing specifics) in order to encourage people to refrain - which would be good for access in the longer term. 

A BMC Wales post that was posted on Facebook on 8th April. It appears to have been edited since the fall out ensued, mind. 

A response to my questioning of the entire post on a shared page went as follows: 

"BMC Cymru/Wales: Philip Oldham this was sent out by the BMC after two climbers were arrested by north wales police for going climbing....I'm guessing that's a good legal definition of not allowed?"

Thanks. Interesting. Still, we’d need to know more details to form a proper view. As far as I’m aware, you get fined rather than arrested, unless there are other circumstances such as refusing to provide your details.

It sounds like a move to create a test case for the cps and to ensure media coverage to support the lock down. Win win for the police, law tested and restrictions publicised. 

Possibly the arrests were for going into the restricted areas rather than for climbing per se.

My reply was that I’d wait to see the charge sheet before drawing conclusions. No further response was received.

If that was the case, then why would the surfers on the beach just get off with a fine and sent home.. yet the climbers get the book thrown at them? Some would argue that was unfair, unbalanced enforcing of the law and a potential big loss of face for the police.

Trespass isn’t a criminal offence, unless it’s on various military sites, rail network etc. It certainly wouldn’t warrant immediate arrest or necessarily make any offences under the Public Health Act more worthy of arrest. 

https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2020-04/the-health-prote...

As I understand it this emergency legislation specifies that its an offence to be in one of the proscribed areas. It also allows for "A person, designated by the Welsh Ministers, may take such action as is necessary to enforce a closure or restriction imposed by regulation", so if a NP ranger tells you to leave maybe you could be prosecuted for aggravated trespass? So that's Snowdon, the Glyderau, Cader, the Arans, the Brecon Beacons and a lot of the coastal path. Plus maybe some other places, I've only been paying attention to the North Wales closures.

Still only if you then refused to leave. Haven’t read up too much on the Welsh variations to the law, admittedly. 

Those initial regs were revoked and replaced with the full works:

https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2020-04/the-health-prote...

Reg 8 deals with reasonable excuses (note the 'once a day' requirement for exercise) and reg 9 with closure of footpaths etc.

Reg 10 deals with enforcement, including of regs 8 and 9. A police officer etc can direct people to leave and/or take them home and in order to do this they may use reasonable force or take such other action as they consider necessary and proportionate. I guess this could include arrest but only in extreme cases where people refuse to follow instructions. I doubt this permits arrest outright.

Regs 12 and 13 deals with fine, including for regs 8 and 9. To issue a fine, a police officer etc needs to know a person's name and address. If they refuse to provide this, they can be arrested under . Obviously there are other things you could be arrested for as well.

So on the whole I'd be very surprised if someone could get arrested simply for climbing, even in a closed area, without some other aggravating factor such as refusing to provide their details or being abusive etc. Not impossible of course but I find it hard to believe there wasn't something else involved. So I would put this in the 'important if true' category. The responsible thing for the BMC to do would be to try to find out further details. After all, if someone actually got arrested simply for climbing, that's something that could be publicised to discourage others.

I've been considering this subject a lot of late as well. I live in Norway now where it's not been anywhere near as bad as the UK. I think partly due to smaller population, and a government that acted about two to three weeks quicker than the UK, along with probably other factors.

The pre-school kids are back today and I'm back to work next week as a non-frontline healthcare worker (a lot have returned today). The numbers for hospital admissions and those on respirators have been dropping steadily. All the hospitals in the Oslo area have the situation well under control, so I feel climbing is morally ok from that point of view. 

Up to now I've just been climbing locally with my girlfriend who I live with, else bouldering. Luckily I have climbing that is 10 minutes drive from home and  most of the stuff in my area is either sport of well-protected trad. There's plenty of safe bouldering as well.

Despite Norway being ahead on the curve compared to the UK with regards recovery, and there also being a fair number of people are out climbing, the consensus on the acceptability of climbing seems no further forward. So long as there is no vaccine I can see there always being an argument for not climbing, and a vaccine could take years, assuming one is found at all. There's not going to be a totally ideal time to start climbing for a good while I think. The relevant local climbing FB groups have close to zero dialogue on the matter. Any mention of climbing makes one the target of the climbing police, which means that it is easier just to keep your head down and say nothing. It's largely coming down to individual judgement as a result, which is a bit of a shame I feel, as open discussion would be better. 

I've been climbing exclusively with the girlfriend but I'm starting to consider other partners. I think the social distancing can be maintained, and I'm happy with my judgement about risk associated with climbing. The main sticking factor has been hand hygiene as I don't see many climbers using hand sanitiser before and after a climb. I think it's something that I can insist of my partners though as an upfront condition though.

Latest thinking seems to be some level of social distancing for the rest of the year and potentially till whenever a vaccine or effective drug therapy become available.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/uk-will-need-social-distancin...

Not entirely surprising. That's not the same as the current lockdown of course. I hope that outdoor activities in small groups of non-household members (only need two people for climbing obviously) will be permitted fairly early on in the series of relaxations. If it means having to wear a face mask, fine. I suspect that would contribute a lot less towards spreading Covid than opening non-essential workplaces such as offices. I'd certainly feel a lot safer climbing with one partner than going into my office with hundreds of colleagues!

Incidentally, the government's chart showing motor vehicle use is showing a slow increase. Last weekend the level of use didn't dip as much as for the two weekends prior to the Easter weekend and the weekday numbers have been gradually climbing from week to week. Climbers aren't the only ones getting restless... On the whole though car use is still massively down.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/...

Spot on Dave, as a 75 year old I reckon this year is a right off climbing wise unless I am prepared to take a risk with my regular partner on remotish crags. If social distancing is strictly adhered to, the crags are going to be quiet for a long time, or are they???

As the saying goes, I have lived my life, but still have a life to live. But for how long?

Elfyn - you are posting as Access and Conservation officer. In this capacity, perhaps you would do well not to losing your rag just because some of the members you represent happen to question your approach. Suggesting, in your capacity as A&C Officer, that we are not allowed to discuss BMC policies and communications critically is not right. It is anti-democratic, unprofessional, and somewhat pathetic.

Otherwise, thanks for taking the time to explain your perspective. Perhaps next time you can do so without telling members they are stupid, ignorant and rude.