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Chamonix or Scotland?

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 beanieman 18 Apr 2020

My dad and I are planning to go on a climbing EPIC during the summer holidays. Unfortunately, we have a rivalry on where to go, Chamonix or Isle of Skye.

We have been to the Alpes once, and it was one of the best couple of weeks I have ever experienced. ever since then, I have been dreaming of going there again. Everything there is perfect (in my opinion), the people, the food, the weather, and most importantly, the climbing. Also, there are many unfinished and big routes I wish to complete.

However, my dad is very enthusiastic about Scotland, especially the Isle of Skye. none of us have ever been to Scotland. But according to a couple of my climbing friends, It's great, but the weather is horrible, rock is damp all the time, and the environment is very intense.

The problem is obviously the fact that my dad wants to go to Scotland and I want to go back to France. He agrees with me on my statement: "The Alpes is the best place on earth" however the only reason not wanting to go, is the price of the journey and the length of the drive.

I also want an enjoyable and chilled out experience.

He says we can go if we find a cheaper way to travel there (tips and tricks, and avoiding tolls)

So my question is:  "is Scotland really worth the hype?"

and also: "are there any tips and tricks, and alternative routes to go to Chamonix to decrease the cost?" 

 rj_townsend 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

Depending on where you're based the journey time may not be that different. However, the costs of driving in France can be quite high if you're going via the toll roads.

Both places are fantastic - in terms of conditions you'd be likely to find Chamonix more stable. However, at the moment I'd suggest going for Skye - the extent to which European travel will be open and accessible and the restrictions that will be placed on the alpine huts is still an unknown. 

1
 steve_gibbs 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

If you'd rather spend less and just doing rock, then head to Scotland. Incredible long multipitches and the Cuillin is world-class! You'll hardly spend anything if you camp and buy food from supermarkets.

If you want Alpinism, then the Alps, however if you plan solely to do rock, then it's debatable whether it's worth the huge extra expense. The biggest cost in Chamonix is the lift pass (typically £20-30 each day you use it) and although some places you can walk in, it's pretty demoralizing adding 2-3 hours walk in, then 1-2 hours out, when you see everyone else crusing on the lift above you! I typically spend ~£600/month in Cham, camping and cooking for myself. We save on lift passes by doing typically three days climbing for each ascent/descent on the lift pass, bivvying on the glaciers or on the rocks the nights in between. 

Aliefroide is better in that there are no lifts, so you save there and everyone is walking in/out,  but further to drive to from the UK. It does, however, offer amazing multipitch routes within a short walk of the main campsite. 

My friends and I always pay for tolls, as the detours to avoid them are really hardly worth it, as add hours to your journey, costing you perhaps half as much more on fuel. Just watch out to avoid the nasty £50 tunnel on route to Ailefroide!

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 AdrianC 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

Either can be great or can be rubbish, mainly depending on the weather.

So make plans for both and make your final decision a week or so beforehand, depending on where the weather looks best.  Assuming they're both accessible by then, of course.

 Doug 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

you don't say where you live but your profile suggests maybe in the SE of England, in which case travel times won't be much different although there are no motorway tolls going to Scotland. In either case do you have to have a fixed destination ? being flexible, especially in Scotland, may mean the difference between a wet week & reasonable weather. And remember Skye is only one part of Scotland & there is much more to the Alps than Chamonix (hint, further south usually has better weather)

In reply to beanieman:

It depends where you live.  I live in the South and the Alps is as easy to get to as Scotland and has more reliable weather.  Scotland may be marginally cheaper but not if you get rained off and there is a very high possibility that you will.  You can of course get bad weather in the alps but there are other areas to escape to.  The Ecrin for example is considered to be one of the driest places in Europe and offers alpine and multi pitch rock climbing and is not far from Provence if things do turn bad.  For me it's the alps, a no brainer.

Al

 AlanLittle 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

Your chances of getting to Scotland this summer are probably higher than your chance of the French letting anybody in.

Weather is often more stable in Scotland in June/September than July/August, and the long days in June are fantastic.

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 peter.herd 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

//However, my dad is very enthusiastic about Scotland, especially the Isle of Skye.//

Id take advice from him, given hes been there and you havent.. 

//none of us have ever been to Scotland. But according to a couple of my climbing friends, It's great, but the weather is horrible, rock is damp all the time, and the environment is very intense.//

Skye isnt the end of the world. Tts just the west of Scotland..although if you end up in the Carbost Inn on the right night i suppose you could desribe the environment as intense.

The main reason people harbour uncertainty about climbing there is because they dont go in the first place. 

Last yr we had a cold and wet June. I spent most of the month guiding in the Cuillin and even with unseasonably poor weather there were plenty good days.

Anyway, most of my days off were spent cleaning and climbing mint dry rock on the NE coast of Skye. Any island/mainland mountain area will always provide microcosms.. and even then weather is often different AM/PM as anywhere else in the UK.

Hey if you are really stuck for ideas on things to do when you go feel free to ping my an email and I can give you a few ideas. 

Pete

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 Stairclimber 18 Apr 2020
In reply to steve_gibbs:

I assume you are talking about the Frejus Tunnel between France (Modane) and Italy (Bardonechia). Normally the route to follow in summer is to head to Grenoble and proceed over the Col du Lautaret . If you do accidentally stay on the autoroute too long, the drive up over the Col du Galibier brings you to the same place. Indeed is worth the drive as this famous cycling route via Valloire is a trip in itself. The Frejus tunnel is more useful in winter. I'd be surprised if anyone came to Ailefroide via the Frejus .

Going to La Berarde avoids the extra miles to Ailefroide and gives a similar experience. Notably this side of the area offers The Dibona as well as the possibility of taking the lift up to 3200m in La Grave. 

 Stairclimber 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

Midges?!!!

Think about La Grave if you haven't much time or even as somewhere to stop off for a few days. Roadside crags (single to big multi pitch), via Ferattas, ski lift to access acclimatisation peaks like the Rateau and nice camp sites.

 summo 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

If you go to Cham buy a lift pass for however long you are there. You'll need to take photo id with you when you buy it. Vastly cheaper than paying each time and you'll queue less too. 

Post edited at 19:02
 Webster 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

If you are set on going to cham and wanting to save money, then taking the ferry to dunkirk, then driving down through belgium and luxembourg gets you well over half way there without tolls, and saves about 45 euro. making sure that you time it right so as to need to fuel up a full tank when in luxembourg can also save you a non trivial sum of money (fuel tax is super low there and the fuel price is basically the same in every petrol station so you wont get ripped off fueling at a service station). The journey time is slightly longer but if you count on at least a full days travel each way, what does it matter if your travel time is 8h or 10h? you are still driving all day!

Removed User 18 Apr 2020
In reply to beanieman:

Skye is brilliant if the weather is nice but often it isn't and you can take a fortnight holiday and get rained on every day.

Instead of deciding on Skye, decide to go to Scotland but go where the weather is best. It may mean you will do a bit of driving but the plus side is you get to see a bit more.

OP beanieman 09 May 2020
In reply to beanieman:

just to clarify, I live around Oxfordshire, so it takes about 12 hrs to drive to cham and 10 hrs to go to Scotland. 

OP beanieman 09 May 2020
In reply to peter.herd:

thank you for your wisdom! we are actually thinking of doing the Cuillin ridge, but any additional classics and climbs you could suggest would be greatly appreciated.

OP beanieman 09 May 2020
In reply to Webster:

thank you this is so helpful, we would be driving the entire day anyway so I don't think a few hours more of travel would be that big of a deal.

 danieljw 07 Jun 2020
In reply to beanieman:

I climbed in chamonix last year and it was honestly the best thing I have done, although I found it cheaper flying, putting all gear in a case and checking it in, I hired a car on the other side. 

In reply to AlanLittle:

Sad that this probably isn't now the case ... probably more likely to get to the Alps. Awaiting phase 3, 4 5 whatever to be allowed to travel more than 5 miles in the Highlands!

 henwardian 07 Jun 2020
In reply to beanieman:

I've spent a while in both locations and here's how I would compare them:

Weather: Not sure which is statistically better as both can be very wet and weather can give you a few days of non-climbing if you are unlucky. Skye can have a variance of weather across the island, it is often cloudy and rainy on the Cuillin but dry at Neist or Elgol.

Insects: Hands down win for Chamonix, I think mosquitoes do exist there but are very few and you really shouldn't have a problem whereas on Skye the midges can be a nightmare if it's cloudy and windless.

Intensity: Assuming I correctly understand what you mean be disliking high intensity, Skye winds hands down here, you have to be mega-unlucky to get a thunderstorm and getting off the hill is almost always a straightforward walk. In Chamonix thunderstorms are a regular occurence and although there are low commitment routes in the Aiguille Rouge, anything on the Mont Blanc massif side has complicated descents and glaciers to contend with.

Tourists: Lots of them, everywhere. Higher density of tourists in Chamonix but both will feel very touristy and busy. The difference comes when you step away from the road - in Chamonix there are still a lot of tourists everywhere, in Skye the numbers drop off precipitously as soon as you are away from the road unless you are walking along the track to the Quirang, Fairy Pools, Fairy Glen, Old Man of Storr or Neist Lighthouse basically.

Hype: It really depends what you are into. The routes on Skye are generally shorter than Chamonix and MUCH less busy with the Cioch being the only place I've regularly run into 2 or more parties on the same route. The rock in Chamonix is all either gneiss or granite, the rock in Skye is a mixture of basalt, sandstone, gabro and dolerite. All the climbs on Skye are trad climbing so with the exception of the odd extremely rare piton you are placing all your own gear, all the climbs I have experienced in Chamonix are more a sort of "adventure sport" climbing where there quite a lot of bolts but when there is good trad gear, the bolts often stop. In terms of pure impressiveness and scale of the landscape, Chamonix is obviously a winner.

Accessability: You can reach anything I can currently think of in Skye by walking for between about 20 minutes and 2 hours. In Chamonix the access often involves a very expensive lift and a walk of 1 hour to 4 hours or a walking of up to 6 hours if you don't want to take the lift.

Danger: In Chamonix all the mountains are falling down because of frost shattering and permafrost retreat. In Skye the cliffs fall down because not enough people have climbed the routes yet and loose rock remains. These are both MASSIVE generalisations and if you climb routes you have heard of, or have seen a number of ascents at either location there shouldn't be a particularly elevated risk (although many routes in Chamonix which used to be considered "classic" are now bowling alleys).

2
 Heike 07 Jun 2020
In reply to beanieman:

I wouldn't bet on it that you will be able to travel to the Isle of Skye from England this summer. Here in Scotland, we are currently restricted to 5 miles from our home to do exercise. Scotland is great (the rock is not horrible - on the contrary - and not always damp and I don't know what you mean about the environment being intense..?(if you can put up with the midges) BUT at the moment there are COVID 19 restrictions for the foreseeable future) with as I say people having to stay within 5 miles of their house to exercise. So driving all the way from England to Skye is currently not possible (or in the foreseeable future)

Alps is great as well, just check out if you need to quarantine for two weeks after you come back...

Best of luck, I would go to either place in a heartbeat if I could!

PS I live in Scotland, but have climbed extensively in the Alps

Post edited at 18:28
 abr1966 07 Jun 2020
In reply to beanieman:

Chamonix....might not be perfect and pricey but good options, cool place.

Skye....likely to rain, good in dry conditions but unlikely...you'll be sat in a crap pub in Portree.

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 Nick_Scots 07 Jun 2020
In reply to beanieman:

Go to Chamonix. If the weather is wet or thundery scoot to Annecy - about an hr and 1/4 -  plenty multi pitch and single pitch, or further south if the weather dictates.

Places like Alp D Huez/La Grave/La Berarde can be dry when Chamonix is yuck. But these areas are really quiet. For example, there is a 6 pitch bolted limestone climb 5mins from Bourg D'Oisans that will have no one on it. Or a multi pitch route adjacent to a waterfall near La Grave with no one on it. And plenty Via Ferrata too. Basing yourself in say Venosc, gives cheaper campong but within an hour a whole range of routes possible.

Try this link.

https://uk.oisans.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/11/guide-via-ferrata-...

 pec 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Webster:

> If you are set on going to cham and wanting to save money, then taking the ferry to dunkirk, then driving down through belgium and luxembourg gets you well over half way there without tolls, and saves about 45 euro.  . . . .

Just to add that you can continue from Luxembourg into France via Metz, Nancy etc on free autoroutes (with a short section of non autoroute) and enter Switzerland at Basel and continue down to Martigny and enter France again via the Col de la Forclaz and into Chamonix that way.

There's a one off swiss autoroute vignette you 'should' buy at c.£30 (if you don't buy one you're unlikley to get caught if you don't stop at services, but that's your decision!) but you can use it all year or if you decide to go to Zermatt for example when the weather in Cham turns bad, which it often does, sounds like you got lucky last time!

That way you avoid all autoroute tolls and if you arrive in Luxembourg with an empty tank each way and fill up you'll more than save the Swiss toll.

On the question of Cham v Skye there's also the midge issue to consider. Never seen a midge in Cham, never not seen one, or more accurately thousands, in Skye.


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