UKC

One of Maggie Thatcher’s 3 million unemployed, climbing full-time?

Whilst the 80’s were a time of change and hardship for many, climbing standards rose exponentially as recorded in UKC’s film, Statement of Youth and the biographies of Jerry Moffatt, Ben Moon, Andy Pollitt, et al. Many of these dole queue climbers are now very successful in various business and societal spheres.

As a consumer researcher investigating how social history shapes us into the consumers and members of society that we are, I am very interested in talking to dole queue climbers who have not written books or appeared in films but were climbing full time during that period.

Below is the link to my University page showing my credentials and past research publications https://www.otago.ac.nz/marketing/staff/otago079986.html

As you can see I am resident in New Zealand, hence I anticipate a virtual chat on a platform such as Zoom, approximately an hour duration at a mutual convenient time. This study has been approved by the University of Otago Human Ethics Committee (TG217M).

Thank you for reading this far and if you are interested in participating in this research, please contact me directly through UKC or via my email shelagh.ferguson@otago.ac.nz

One group you might like to also consider - students. At the time we could sign on during the summer, and due to overworked dole offices I think we only had to sign on once ever 6 weeks. In addition there was a massive anti feeling about us students "taking the work of others". I once tried to get a summer job on the railways and was told to F-off as the jobs would go to real people supporting families etc.

This meant one could sign on and hitch or motorbike to the south of France for 6 weeks, return and repeat. My parents were Conservative voters and saw nothing wrong with this.

In my case it led to zero improvement in climbing, but some great adventures that I think have left positive things. 

When I started as a student we were also paid a stipend during term time which I think might have been about the same as the dole. The state (tax payers) were of course also paying for the tuition. Hence my weeks on the dole were cheaper for the state than university.

As I see it, the interesting bit is whether my worth to society, or as a tax paper, was increased more per £ spent by a typical week bumming around France and Spain, or a typical week in the lecture hall? To maximise the eventual return, was the government better financing my studies or my dossing? Or a bit of both?

like you I had one summer where I spent 4-6 weeks in France, I can't remember quite how I handled the paperwork and maybe only got housing benefit. I'm sure that time in France, mostly in the Alps but with a short visit to Provence, was partly responsible for me accepting a postdoc in France several years later, and eventually moving to France for work & now retirement.

Another summer I had a 3 week trip to the Lakes & N Wales (home was central Scotland at the time) which originally was going to be a long weekend in Glencoe - we heard the weather forecast for Glencoe & went south to avoid the bad weather. Conditions were good so we stayed in the south assumming we'd loose our benefits once back (2 of us were students, the other, who owned a car, was a teacher in his first job) but somehow when I went to sign on again on my return all was OK.

As a student I had to sign on every two weeks, and consequently hitched up and down the A5 every two weeks to North Wales, bar one period when i was allowed a 'holiday' and went to France

I managed to spend a period far enough away from a dole office that i could sign on by post (a few already completed forms and a mate local to the post box on the promise of a few pints on my return) and a uni vacation was duly spent on the dole in france.

You are definitely overthinking this! I cant think of a single benefit to the taxpayer of funding my overseas vacations........i would like to think that my uni studies have led me into a more lucrative career than would maybe be the case....but who really knows? I know some real wasters with good degrees, and some successful career types and business people who have more limbs than gcse's.

people who have more limbs than gcse's

Oi. That was going to be my claim to fame!!

Steve

but are you a successful business person?

He's done okay 

This wasn’t an 80’s thing I gave up work to climb in 1976. Sign on Tuesday catch the bus the Sheffield, then the bus to the Foxhouse  or Stoney climb, doss out. Back to Leeds on Sunday repeat all summer.

In reply to Removed Usercapoap:

Me too. My 6 months on the G.C.G. ("Government Climbing Grant") were among the happiest times of my life. Did I look for work even once during those 6 months, ha-ha-ha, you guess folks

Thanks for the idea David, I am interested in the way neo-liberalism took root. Historically, Margaret Thatcher has much to answer for, not least her championing of some very pervasive (and invidious) ideas. I see dole queue climbers as escaping and rejecting some of that rhetoric and that is why I am keen to chat to as many as possible. Your final comment suggests to me, you feel a 'responsibility' to the society who funded your education and climbing. I would be keen to have a chat with you about this if you are willing? Thanks.

Thanks Doug, I was wondering if the financial support (dole, housing benefit etc.) encouraged you to do things differently? Can you recall the importance of it in your decisions?

Thanks nniff, if you are prepared to entertain my curiosity, same question to you as to Doug. Did the dole encourage you to do things differently? Can you recall the importance of it in your decisions?

Not sure I agree with the 'overthinking this', as social dynamics often operate at an unconscious level. Hence the value of reflecting back on events and considering their impact upon each individual path. Please do not misunderstand me and think I am suggesting that this research will provide a single answer applicable to everyone. As you point out we are all individuals and a single course of action will not have the same outcome for everyone. Some might suggest that when there were no jobs available claiming dole and climbing are logical choices whereas for others this may be a form of escape and I am interested in the many ways this period was understood.

I agree not exclusive to the 80's. However what I understand made this period notable was the collective energy and communities that formed consequently pushing climbing grades in the UK. So it created a particular and in some ways competitive energy (according to my reading of several biographies of that time) and I am interested in the (maybe conflicting) dynamics? If you would be prepared to entertain further questions, did you feel part of a strong climbing community at that time? Were you still part of the full time climbing scene in Sheffield during the 80's? If so what did you see as any changes between the two eras? 

In reply to Removed Usercapoap:

A different era indeed, how long did you remain a full time climber and dole claimant?

 No, but I am now effectively on the dole for the first time as the government are paying 80% of my wages whilst I'm not working. Just a shame that during the first time in my life that I've got loads of free time I can't actually go climbing. 

I do find my works WhatsApp group quite funny with loads of people demanding people on the dole are forced to pick fruit without realising they're all effectively on the dole themselves. 

The mid 1980s seem a lifetime ago but I will never forget the drawn out dread of Thatcher's poll tax. It was to be the icing on the cake to a general feeling of no prospects, no opportunities. I flunked out of uni as all that first year taught me was that climbing was the single most important thing to me. The following year, 1986-87 I spent on the dole, climbing as much as I could. I had friends who had already graduated and pestered others still studying to skip a day here and there. As the gravy train drew to an end I knuckled down, got a job, saved a bit and with the extraordinary good fortune of having Canadian citizenship from earlier time there, left the UK in '88. As things played out climbing has been central to my livelihood both directly and in a myriad of indirect ways: guiding, publishing guidebooks, photography etc...  

I was a student at a time (early 80s) when unemployment was notably high and plenty of people were desperate for work. During the student holidays we either could try to get a job (which I did over Christmas when there was lots of seasonal work available) or sign on the dole, which was the only other way to support ourselves, particularly during the 3-month summer breaks. It seemed really daft to try to get jobs that we didn't want to do, knowing that in doing so we would be denying the opportunity to someone who very much wanted it. It seemed entirely logical to me and I had no qualms whatsoever, since effectively all available vacancies were being filled quickly and this way the people who didn't mind being unemployed were the ones without jobs.

I've mentioned this in recent decades, on here and elsewhere, and received a much more negative response in general to that of the prevailing mood at the time. It seems that one of Thatcher's legacies was a widespread conviction that one should always compete for work regardless of circumstances or indeed concern for those who need the work more, or be ridiculed as a scrounger.

Probably a stupid question, but have you watched the Statement of Youth film?

vimeo.com/334839810

if not, it documents the period you’re looking at, and the Sheffield climbing dole scene. I used to sleep in Stoney at the weekends (I was working, early ‘80s) and run into and sometimes climb with some of them. Like them, I got the enterprise allowance in the late ‘80s and I set up what became a successful business before going back to University in ‘92.

One scene just moved in to the other as I remember it.

People like Al Manson, John Syrett and others finished Uni got jobs at supermarkets or the like. When these finished they signed on and climbed. Steve Bancroft dropped out of college in Matlock moved to Leeds to be part of this group, climbing at the Leeds Wall during the winter. As the 70’s ended more and more people were moving to Sheffield due to better accessible crags.

I think when the signing on arrangements went from weekly to two   weekly it meant you could go away for longer. I think this was early 80’s.

I would be ok with answering more of what I remember but I have poor internet access at the moment due recently moving house and I am currently using the neighbours WiFi.

Steve Bancroft would be a good person to contact, he is on Face book. Also Kim Carrigan as he rented a house in Sheffield in 1981.

Always happy to chat. 

I definitely feel a sense of responsibility to society, but my last point was more general. As an academic I've spent quite a bit of time wondering what and why the ranks of the young in the rows of desks in front of me are doing there. And if this is the best use of their, their parents or society's money. I got a lot out of university, but I'm not sure much of the subject matter, mattered. I took my daughter into a refugee camp in Jordan not long ago, and I'm sure that was better value for money than 4 days at college. Such thoughts led me to leave a physics dept in my late 40s and become a Prof in an architecture dept. as the topic is vocational. 

There is certainly an element of 21st century sucking through teeth, at the idea of claiming the dole in the 1980's. They were different times, like the war years were to our generation. Most people, I knew saw nothing wrong with claiming dole. They felt it was owed to them. In the north, many people felt real anger at being left to rot due to political decisions.

And the dole, I remember was £27 a week. So you topped it up, as best as you could. I scaffolded for £10 a day. I washed dishes for 80p an hour. Whatever, came your way. You did what you could to keep your head above water.

Maybe this generation is about to find out the same thing. 

I managed to avoid the dole as a student. I started at Sheffield uni in 86 and spent the following summer working as a postman. I just had one round, started at 5:30am, finished 9-10am picked my kit up, got on the bus and arrived at The Scotsmans Pack about midday. I usually had to wait for the next bus before my dole drawing friends dragged their arses out of bed

I completely agree and this something appearing in the data I am gathering, for some being a member of society is intertwined with proactively seeking work. Yet others navigate being outside of these norms for periods of time, recalling such times as intensely enjoyable. I have not found anyone who has remained outside these norms for a long period of time. This makes me wonder if one of the intrinsic appeals of 'escape' from mainstream societal values and compliance is at best temporary? Yet the idea of 'escape' remains viscerally attractive. The tension between the two seems important.

I was highly productive during my 6 months on the dole (looking for work ha-ha-ha). [1] I researched crags all over the UK, [2] I kept out of the job market, thus allowing a more able and more worthy person to have the job I would've / could've had

Thanks very much I shall follow up on your suggestions.

Thanks for replying to me Paul. Statement of Youth has been very influential in shaping my project. Initially I was thinking about full-time climbers not anchored to a specific time period. Then I watched Statement of Youth and was struck by how many of those featured in the film have been successful in other realms of their life. Whilst that period raised climbing standards in the UK, did it have other impacts? Perhaps changing some of the previous societal norms around work and escaping mainstream conformity?

Thanks for replying. If I may bother you with a follow up questions, why not claim dole and get up at the same time as your dole drawing friends?

Thanks for your response. G.C.G. is a new term for me. Please indulge me with follow up question if you do not mind? Why only six months if this was such a happy time?

Please may I bother you with a couple of further questions, how did you balance work and climbing during these times? Were you working to climb or working to live? how did they mix for you?

Several reasons - [1] six months felt long enough to me - I did not want to become long-term or permanently unemployed - I wanted to get back into work and get somewhere in life (which I've done successfully in the following decades). [2] I knew I would still be equally happy, and still be able to climb a lot, if I went back to work. [3] The dole was minimum money, just enough for my rent in a shared flat and food from the supermarket (I never ate out and didn't have a car, and so hitch-hiked everywhere). I wanted and needed more money, e.g. for travelling outside the UK, and for replacing expensive climbing equipment - both of which were hard to do on the dole. [4] I was still relatively young and didn't want to disappoint my parents (especially my Dad) - they really wanted me to get a job, and I cared about what they thought. [5] Twinges of guilt, in the end, about continuing to suck up government money, especially in the long run

Number [5] was the least important reason, to be honest

I grew up in an ex mining community where there were so many men who had no work it would have been socially difficult to turn down work to play on the rock. Even now in the village families are divided into "grafting" folk and "scrounging" folk. You could be a grafter who is out of work but if you turned down a job you would be labelled a scrounger forever. My friends were mainly from richer families and it didn't matter so much to them.

I think wrt the characters in the film, if you’re focused and disciplined enough to become a world standard athlete, then you’ve got a lot of the basic requirements to do well in other endeavours. Also, although it was relatively modest income at the time, sponsorship income began to make a big difference. Climbing was becoming a recognised sport at the time and there were proper jobs to be had. The first time I went round to Martin Atkinson’s new house when he bought it, it was very different to the Hunter House Road houses in the film!

I was skydiving more than climbing at the time (it was closer to Birmingham) and I basically lived at the parachute centre packing parachutes to pay for skydive. Drove back home to sign on once a fortnight. Did that for a year until I got a job.