UKC

Hi, like it says in the title really. I cleaned and inspected my rack and wondered just how old is some of this kit. I have no real recollection when it was bought.

Reference the pictures in my gallery, https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.php?nstart=0&id=63804

Is it as simple as on the ferules on the nuts on cord, ie '95, as part of the CE marking? That would make it '86 for the cam. The cam also has an F and 9 stamped on the bar which I guess is a batch number and has it's own use to the manufacturer.

The slings are different in having a three letter code and no obvious date or even CE marking, surely there must be one somewhere.

Do manufacturers colour code or pattern the textiles stuff, eg the different colour stitching on the slings?

Are there standard marking systems or do manufacturers make up there own and would you expect that to be publicly available?

Any in information would be interesting. I do see there are a few people on here who would be well qualified to explain.

Thanks in advance.

P

Sometimes

Sometimes,

No, and sometimes

Check the manufacturers web site, they usually have something explaing for to date their stuff.

Each mfg. has a different method.

I was once told that if you were unsure about the safety and age of a sling you should cut it in half and try to count the rings.

HB (makes of your cam) ceased trading in 2005 so the cam is at least 15 years old - probably more

Take it on the antiques road show?

Largely as I suspected, sometimes all round.

Looking at those photos: if it's made of metal it's almost certainly fine, if it's made of sling/cord it's very likely not.

I replace all my 'soft' gear on a 5 year basis - probably overkill, but as I instruct I have to stick to manufacturer's guidelines for insurance purposes.  Metal gear goes on pretty much forever if it's not had any serious impacts; many of my karabiners and a few nuts are from the 1990s and I have no qualms about them whatsoever.

edit: sadly this probably means your cams are for the bin.  Manufacturers will only re-sling their own units and HB are long gone.  You can re-cord the nuts yourself as long as you can tie a double fisherman's, but I think the way those cam slings work is they have a double wrap around the wire - this adds to the strength.  BD showed a while ago that if you use a single wrap of webbing around such a wire, it'll cut the webbing under load, and so you can't just tie your own replacement webbing on.

Not saying the gear is unsafe but I'd treat yourself to some new gear if the budget will allow.

Ha ha thought I had come to AR, who would you have as the expert?

Planning to replace it all any way. Just wondering.

Fiona Bruce.

What has David Dickinson done on grit?

I hear this is more reliable with kernmantle construction rather than braided😀

I bought an identical HB 00 cam in a clearance sale in 1991-92. It was being sold at a substantial discount as it was new old stock and was already long discontinued at that time.

Should still be okay to use though..... 

By double wrap do mean the extendable slings common on new designs? Is there any reason not to clip a qd directly to the wire loop of the Quads or any other brand?

Unless the built in slings are considerably beefier than normal and i don't recall that being the case then lifespan is needlessly curtailed by design.

No, the problem is not linked to the extendable slings.  It's that the part of the cam that the sling 'hangs' from is wire, and under load the wire cuts the sling and also deforms the wire; see here:

https://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/qc-labreslinging-camalots-and-c3...

Doubling the sling over at this junction prevents the problem, and (if I remember rightly) that's also how HB solved the problem?

I don't like the idea of just clipping a karabiner in there - the krab won't fail but I imagine it'll damage the wire just as effectively as the single sling does in that link.

Not even that in the case of Wild Country, even if the unit is brand new (so buyer beware).  Though it is possible to send anything off to the USA to for reslinging.  Eg: https://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/cams/mt_camresling.htm

That was in relation to the 'thumb loop' on Camalots, though funnily enough the original Camalots back in the day were a twin-stem design like those HB cams, and they were originally supplied with no sling at all.  You just clipped the loop with a quickdraw.  https://gripped.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Camalot.jpg

I think there are firms who will replace slings on cams, maybe not in UK so perhaps not cost effective and maybe not OK for insurance purposes. There are several in the USA eg Mountain Tools on   https://blog.weighmyrack.com/best-places-to-resling-cams-trigger-wires/

There is an image of another cam with a double wrap on that blog so presumably it can still be done.

If it helps you decide whether to keep stuff, I once tested a 25 yr old sling that was nicked (damaged not stolen!). It failed above its rated strength. 

See what you mean about the Camalot slings. Wonder how WC & DMM (Dragonfly) got around that as they both use a simple doubled loop design.

All of my Quads have a short single loop. It's possible the cross bar on the Quads reduces the wire loop collapsing. 

I take it all back - you're right, the quad cams don't have the stitched double loop.  I could have sworn that mine did, but I sold them about 20 years ago..!

It must be, as you suggest, that the cross bar adds strength against the collapse.  I don't know how the modern Dragonflys etc manage it - their wire loop must somehow be reinforced?  I don't have one to hand...

Had a couple of HB cams years ago and the slings on both degraded and almost came apart within a month or two of each other. Ok, they were quite old, but in the end it happened surprisingly quickly.

The doubled sling isn't make or break (pardon the pun). Having it gives the unit a higher breaking strain by a couple of kN, and a skinny doubled sling can deform the wire loop in small falls, but it isn't generally going to be catastrophic. The Dragonflies presumably manage it because their breaking strains are 9kN and below. Larger Camalots are 12kN.

Black Diamond's own advice is that it's ok to resling yourself with a tied single loop of tape, just be aware that it'll be weaker, but still strong enough for most lead falls. They say the same about clipping directly into the loop with a quickdraw.

The rod holding the loop open will certainly prevent the deformation on the HB cams, but I would guess they also didn't test things as thoroughly.

FYI, the four digit code next to the CE is the notified body identifier, eg, CE 0086 tells you that the notified body that did the testing for that product is BSI Assurance Ltd. 0095 is no longer a valid notified body identifier.

The three letter code would probably be a batch code that would give you date of manufacture.

Sling colours are not standardised to date or manufacturer.

Markings are standardised by the standard that they were manufactured/tested in accordance with. Within the EU, those are the standards produced by CEN (legal requirement) and worldwide, the standards produced by the UIAA (not a legal requirement). The standards evolve over time and more and more information is now supplied on the labels and within the documentation supplied with equipment. Modern items will have a code that tells you date of manufacture*. They should also be batch coded.

* The date of manufacture code is not always as clear as one would like and might need the supplied documentation to decipher.

I suspect you could get a good idea of the age of the kit by posting some photos as a lot of gear ranges are only available in a style/model for a limited time. Someone on here would know. Not precise but you could narrow it down. I'm guessing that if you can't remember roughly how old your gear is it must be fairly old.

" Reference the pictures in my gallery, https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.php?nstart=0&id=63804 "

Ah, missed that, thank you. 20 years + then, is my guess, but I'm not as expert as some.

I've still got one of those Dynema threaded Wall Nuts that I retired a couple of decades ago.

Just the one nut with sentimental value, or lots of stuff?

I have quite a stash of 'retired' gear - ridiculous really.  It's probably a slippery slope towards being one of those poor old dears sharing a flat with fifteen tonnes of old newspapers that Channel 5 do the tv programmes about.

Thanks. Those numbers did seem unexpected to be the year of manufacture or certification.

Similarly I tend to keep the retired gear unless it is completely worn out. I have two of the nuts in question (7 and 8) I hadn't had them that long when I decide to switch to an 'all wires' approach for my racking of nuts. So, as they were still in perfect condition, I couldn't bring myself to get rid of them and I thought I might decide to use them again at some point. I never did. I have a friend who prefers to climb on roped nuts so I've promised them to him, worth keeping after all! (hoarder's justification)