UKC

Not to hijack the ABC thread.

Thinking about the 9m2 per user and trying to understand how this could be implemented and provide a return to the business. Note return does not necessarily mean profit, it may be a tolerable loss to maintain capability. 

Using SI units of garden flags (600mmx600mm) as my measure. 

A crowd is 1 person per flag (0.36m2) or nominal 3 persons per m2. The sort of spacing you might expect at the front of a rock concert? 

What scenario would be analogous to 1 per 9m2?

From memory, allocating a 3x3 square per user would take out 3 lines on a lead wall, would this be 6 if climbing with a member of another household? Climb, traverse, lower off?

Is this level of footfall worth turning the lights on for? 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

I have a different idea. I'd suggest it to the walls I use but it'd see myself getting roped into explaining how to organise it. It's simple: we accept there is risk and minimize that by climbing as bubbled cohorts and accepting that we will be in close contact. With each group climbing at set times and totally out of the building before the next come in as the getting through doors/reception is as unpredictable as rounding a corner while actually in the establishment. Just keep those bubbles together and do the right thing should one in a bubble get the lurg.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

I'd be surprised if the first steps for most of our walls are much different from this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAyi2VhgtfK/?hl=en

In reply to stonker:

Doesn't that mean that climbers are expecting to be treated preferentially to others? I thought that to prevent spread of coronavirus non-household meetings should still be attempting 2m separation in all circumstances: shopping, sport whatever. I may be misinterpreting the guidelines however.

In reply to oldie:

My big take away from this difficult period is that we are ALL mummy's special soldier. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

True.

Actually I can see that a bubble would be OK if everyone in it kept separate (and didn't touch their face beteen hand washings). But then that's not a lot different from having limited entry with no bubble but supervision (supervision of safe belaying etc is usually present anyway).

In reply to Presley Whippet:

I run a small leisure centre wall (30 ish lines) and although the 9m2 will be problematic much more so will be the limited capacity to run group sessions. 

Our income is pretty much a split evenly with 1/3rd independent climbers, 1/3rd kids clubs and 1/3rd other instructed activities. We're quite lucky that much of the climber income is DD but much of the other activities will inevitably have dropped off and it will take time to get these bookings in. The income fron these also help pay for our route setting and staffing costs so we're certainly going to feel the reduction.

We're very lucky that our parent company is a massive trust so are going to be able to ride it out but I do worry for other small walls. A lot of climbing walls make a lot less profit than people think.

In reply to oldie:"Doesn't that mean that climbers are expecting to be treated preferentially to others? I thought that to prevent spread of coronavirus non-household meetings should still be attempting 2m separation in all circumstances: shopping, sport whatever. I may be misinterpreting the guidelines however."

Currently, yes. And I don't see indoor climbing returning before the end of the year. But it is hard not to make the case for doing it this way when rugby and so on will have returned. I don't believe the added risk of climbing will come from the nature of the activity but that many indoor climbers esp boulderers are fairly inconsiderate and most wall owners/managers are fairly poor at providing basic facilities. e.g. Handwashing.... we've all queued for that one sink to wash the chalk off our hands b/c they have allowed the bare minimum forever. We've  seen the signs telling us to not leave valuables unattended and then lived with the fact there is less than 20 lockers when there might regularly be over 100 people in on a busy night. In terms of providing stuff they are generally "a bit bad". It's not that they don't put work in it is just that that work is usually in relation to some instagram postable new artisan bread. They need to start thinking about what happens in December now. Cos in my experience they are piss poor at providing facilities.

To be clear not hammering wall staff. Management in many, not all, cases, yup. I don't think this is a situation most of them will competently deal with.

loving the downvotes from the furloughed middle management wall staff.

In reply to Presley Whippet:  How far is it between a bolt line at most lead walls? Assuming 1 metre if you pull the draws off 50 % of bolt lines this will kind of fix itself naturally. 

 For a while this is your new normal - learn to live with it

In reply to wbo2:

I have no vested interest other than enjoying considering the problem. Like everyone, I have a view but I can separate that from my thinking. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

I'll have 6 square meters in the shop, 2 in the toilet and 2 in front of my climb please...

In reply to stonker:

It is a bit insulting when lots of walls try to provide the best facilities they can. Particularly when a lot of people put their life and soul into these businesses.

You also have to look at it from their point of view. If your a trad climber that only goes to the wall for 3 months of the year and when you do go just complain about the price and/or lack of facilities why would they gear their business towards catering for you? Much better to put time and effort into catering for the people in 3 times a week. Just because you don't believe it to be worthwhile doesn't make it wrong.

To be honest theres lots of challenges ahead for the industry and I wouldn't be surprised if a fair few walls dont make it. Any wall closing is a loss for the whole community so why dont we all get behind them and try to help them survive? 

In reply to stonker:

You're going to the wrong walls...

In reply to Presley Whippet:

In climbing walls I think that it would probably be better to have a maximum number of climbers based on a linear metre rather than by square metres of floor space. I would suggest something like 1 climber per 3 linear metres. This could apply to bouldering walls as well as lead walls but probably need some site specific tweaking depending on the proximity of other walls, eg in corridor type areas.

I think indoor climbing, unfortunately, is pretty different...

Essentially as you go up a wall you're heavily breathing, sweating and grinding your hands onto rough objects 0 to 30cm away from you.
30 seconds later, someone different then does the same thing.  

Combine this with the fact users tend not to want to wash hands very regularly as it reduces their ability to perform at the sport and adequate air extraction in a climbing centre is difficult to achieve (we've all seen the clouds of chalk dust in the sunbeams)...

I say this as someone to whom indoor climbing has been a major love and passion for the last 20 years (I also met my partner indoor climbing), but I can't actually think of a riskier mainstream sport/hobby for virus transmission (other than the generally younger age dynamic).

I suspect in the short term the only way walls will work in a profitable way is by running essentially "private sessions", similar to how children's parties/corporate events work, or segmenting centres into multiple small zones you have timed climbing in.
Keeping the sense of climbing community and balancing needing new money through this to survive and not annoying pre-paid members who've supported them long term will be another horrible hurdle.

I really hope I'm wrong, but I suspect the best chance is simply we discover, through antibody testing, Covid is much more widespread and asymptomatic than we thought and the risk of another pandemic is much lower, otherwise I'm really fearful for the sport I love in the short term.

In reply to belayatron:

I share your thoughts there. 

Every issue points to either an increase in running cost or fall in revenue.

Like most, I "enjoy" climbing walls out of necessity. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

I think it's possible to overthink this. I'd be quite satisfied if my local wall opened with the same procedures they had pre-lockdown:

• Mandatory hand sanitizer on the way in
• Reduce people allowed in building at any given time
• Reduce people per room/area at any given time
• Politely enforced distancing within reasonable expectations (1-2 meters)
• Existing members and pre-bookings only

In addition I'd be willing to except:

• Signing a waiver that I take responsibility for my own health/have not had or shown any symptoms for 14 days
• Temperature check on entry
• Increased rotation/cleaning of holds

Steps beyond this I think impinge too much on both the business making any profit and maintaining a place that people want to continue to spend time/money in. I accept touching the same surfaces as other people when I go out for walks/supermarkets, so I don't feel threatened that climbing holds or chalk particulates are going to be a major contributor to spreading the virus.

In reply to belayatron:

I don't really disagree with any of the risk factors you've highlighted but I think you're overstating it by concluding that the transmission risk for indoor climbing is worse than any other sport. I would think the risk is probably pretty similar to gyms.

I don't think the chalk dust in the air shows that airflow is miles worse in a climbing wall than other similar indoor spaces, more just that chalk gets dispersed a lot and is fairly visible.

In reply to Danbow73:

There are more comfortable places to hang out with your frappuccino and your imac. Let the crimpers crimp!

I firmly believe that allowing hipster f*ckknuckles (staff & punters) to determine the lay of the land with regard to the availability of  climbing training in the uk is, and has been,  a wild mistake. I honestly believe a hard reset is a good thing.

Here's a thing: I don't recall seeing a MRT donation box in a wall since the mid oughties.

F*ck em. If they are worth knowing then they will adapt. After all, they are not part of some noble profession, they just bolt shit on'ta plywood.

In reply to stonker:

Interesting. Each posting you make just compounds your lack of understanding of how climbing walls operate.

And why would there be a MRT donation box?

In reply to belayatron:

I don't see how measures like mandatory hand sanitisers on the way in are going to achieve anything.

If someone has it and they sweat then the virus will be in their sweat and get on the holds and the mats if the sit down for a rest between problems.  Makes no difference if they washed their hands carefully before they started to climb because its coming out after they start to climb.

If someone else then touches the contaminated holds/mats and washes their hands before they touch their face then that hand washing might save them from infection.  But people don't want to regularly wash their hands during a climbing session, it gets rid of the chalk and softens the skin.

Our best hope is that chalk / liquid chalk provides a barrier.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Hand sanitising will lower the viral load if someone has it. This means there are fewer virons being passed on to the next person who touches the surface after them so they get a milder infection. 

Agreed that it's not going to solve the problem though, just reduce the severity a bit.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Evidence, please?  The current understanding so far as I am aware is that the virus does not spread through skin in any form, or at least not to a considerable extent.  If it did, the wearing of gloves would be encouraged, not deprecated.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

To try and clear this up for people an excerpt from the Gov.uk website on transmission:

"Initial research has identified the presence of COVID-19 virus in the stools and conjunctival secretions of confirmed cases. All secretions (except sweat) and excretions, including diarrhoeal stools from patients with known or possible COVID-19, should be regarded as potentially infectious."

Also one from John's Hopkins website:

"As the new coronavirus is spreading, be cautious about all possible exposures, including at the gym or fitness center. The virus isn’t spread through perspiration (sweat), but items touched by many people (barbells, etc.) could pose a risk."

I've only heard people suggesting sweat transmits the virus on this forum, nowhere else. If people have contrary data/sources please provide.

If touching your face once after touching a common surface lead to becoming infected we'd all have it by now. I also don't believe it's impossible to avoid touching your face during a climbing session, I managed during the weeks leading up to the closure on March 20th, that's individual responsibility and not a good enough reason to keep walls closed.

Hand sanitizer on the way in makes sense to prevent it being carried in, but I'd be willing to do away with it. Just trying to promote non-intrusive ways to promote hygiene/the feeling of safety without greatly effecting the enjoyment of indoor climbers.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Walls over here (Bavaria) are limiting total numbers allowed in and only allowing climbers on every second line. All the lines are set; some are just relying on people to self-enforce the rules, some are putting "no entry " signs on alternate lines. (And moving them every now & then I assume, otherwise why bother to go to the expense of setting every line?)

In reply to stonker:

I'd love to know which walls are profitable enough to employ any "middle management"......

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Well, maybe they'll just have to get used to it. Also, the gripiest skin is freshly washed and dried with minimal chalk. Washing your hands a little more whilst climbing might help your performance as well as your general hygiene? 

I now always wash my hands post warm up to get the sweat and grime build up off them. Makes it a lot easier to hold poor holds during my session, I might even give them a second wash mid session depending on conditions. (This was all pre corona, more handwashing would be even more appropriate now)

In reply to galpinos:

Why should they have to get used to it? If you sanitize your hands before entering the gym you aren't spreading anything around that isn't already in the gym. If people choose to was their hands more go ahead, but enforcing it goes against sense and reduces enjoyment. Very much against the idea of sanitizing hands after every climb.

Dirty and/or sweaty hands don't spontaneously produce virus.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Just thinking (too lazy to come up with an answer);  can we anticipate that the 2 metre rule will be reduced anyway?  Only a few countries specify that distance and many (France for example) are 1 m or 1.5 m.