UKC

Most historically significant route N wales?

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 Kemics 10 Jul 2020

My father in law is Welsh and grew up in North Wales. He spent his summer holidays in the 60's at an uncle's farm in Llanberis and remembers watching early climbers clambering up buttresses and his uncle was a memember of an early proto-mountain rescue, a sheppard who knew the local hills (might have been late 1950's)

He has a keen interest in local and human history. I'd like to take him for a day in the hills with a human and historical interest; which route do you think has the best story/most interesting human history in N.wales?

I was thinking maybe Hope on Idwal slabs or Grooved arete? Hope with a female first ascentionist in 1915 must have an interesting history but a brief google doesnt suggest much. 

1
 GrahamD 10 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

I think I'd go with Indian Face.  A great back story and still significant even now.

6
 Myfyr Tomos 10 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Cenotaph Corner. Its line, its history and its continuing fascination.

2
In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

I have the impression the guy wants something to take a non-climber up. CC might be a little stern.

jcm

 GerM 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Simdde'r Foel

 birdie num num 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Winthrop Young’s Climb on Clogwyn Pen Llechen.

its not historically significant but it has history.

Or if you want to follow in the footsteps of many pioneers, have a struggle up the Gwynant Crack

In reply to Kemics:

Eastern Terrace on Cloggy?

(Arguably) the first recorded rock climb in Britain in 1798. 

 neuromancer 11 Jul 2020
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

A little stern compared to the goddamned Indian Face?

Post edited at 08:05
 Philb1950 11 Jul 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

Indian Face is an esoteric non line. Cenotaph Corner is the most compelling line in Wales, if not the U.K. and it’s history is immense.

2
OP Kemics 11 Jul 2020
In reply to neuromancer:

He can give it a go on a top rope

OP Kemics 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Thanks, that sounds good. He has a guidebook from 1961, might be fun trying to use that. although it seems most route descriptions include standing on slings round chock stones!

 GrahamD 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Philb1950:

> Indian Face is an esoteric non line. Cenotaph Corner is the most compelling line in Wales, if not the U.K. and it’s history is immense.

I'd agree about the line, but that wasn't the OP's question. 

I'd argue that the history of CC is not that immense.  It's only claim to fame historically is the fact it's a Joe Brown route.

Indian face, on the other hand, has the whole bolt ethical issues around it and the Redhead / Dawes rivalry as well as taking UK trad to a significantly different level.

3
 Trangia 11 Jul 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

I would agree with Winthrop Young's Climb on Clogwyn Pen Llechen., or both Hope on Idwal Slabs or Grooved Arete on East Face of Tryfan. 

Flying Buttress is another great Classic in the Pass, if he is OK with exposure Spiral Stairs is also good value and not unduly difficult.

The other great Classic is Amphitheatre Buttress, a long mountain day out on Craig yr Ysfa.

Another climb dripping with history from late night antics, best done by torch light after a good dinner in the Pen y Gwryd, and wearing diner jacket/evening dress is Lockwood's Chimney

Post edited at 12:12
1
In reply to Kemics:

> .... which route do you think has the best story/most interesting human history in N.wales?

I'd say it's the A55. Before that you had to drive through all the towns and villages. It was a nightmare!

 Trangia 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

> T.

Like Johncoxmysteriously I also gained the impression that the OP was looking for a lower grade climb for his father in law? More in keeping with the two he suggested himself.

I agree Munich has some interesting history with the first ascent made by a German team using a peg, and the British follow up team doing it clean and removing the peg! It also came with a warning in later guide books that it required "good ropework" as "there had been too many fatalities on it"! It was one of my first VS leads in the 1980s, and that warning certainly concentrated my mind at the time!! I see that more recent guide books  longer insert the grim warning. 

Historical, yes, but is it really suitable for a non climber incorporating the exposed traverse pitch, which is what I understood the OP to mean?

 Iain Thow 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

How about Slanting Buttress on Lliwedd? The cliff is full of early climbing history, there's the story of the 19th century miners looking for King Arthur's cave in the gully next door (and climbing Severe in the process), the positions are great and it's a reasonable grade for a non climber.

In reply to Kemics:

Kirkus's Climb (VD)

I wouldn't by any means claim this as the definitive historic route in North Wales, but it resonated with me. It is Colin Kirkus' first FA in North Wales (as far as I'm aware) and was climbed with his brother. I quite like the thought of him and his brother cycling over from Liverpool, wandering up to Clogwyn yr Oen before there was an easy access road or any routes on it, picking out the plumb line and making a day of it. Must have been a real adventure for a pair of young lads in 1928!

 summo 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Don't get drawn into the grade game. 

Oggie T shack... head up tin can alley, mining history. Idwal opens out, key in the early theories of glaciation etc.. perhaps if they are a climber then ordinary route. Easy route but takes you up into the action, javelin blade being the alleged first e1 is visible etc. Then scramble up, head to cnieffion arete, then a choice; glyders aren't far off as the ascent is nearly done. Great views of Snowdon etc.. Then miners track back round to Oggie. Depending on age and ability, make it about viewing the best ogwen has to offer, you don't need to climb all of it. Even the added bits of the old bridge under the new one at ogwen etc if history is their thing. Or the old machine gun mounts there. 

 tintinandpip 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

I would have to give a second vote to Indian Face as it's simply "the" route on "the" cliff of North Wales.

However, Suicide Wall route 1 is some outing for 1945, I can't imagine there was much of a queue for the second ascent. 

2
In reply to Kemics:

Unfortunately the simple answer is that there is not one single route.  All of the ones mentioned and some that were not are significant in one way or another.

Al

 Trangia 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Isabelle Booker:

> I'd say it's the A55. Before that you had to drive through all the towns and villages. It was a nightmare!

 profitofdoom 11 Jul 2020
In reply to tintinandpip:

> .......Suicide Wall route 1 is some outing for 1945, I can't imagine there was much of a queue for the second ascent. 

I have total respect for Chris Preston for the first ascent of Suicide Wall Route 1 (E2 5c) in 1945 - talk about ahead of its time

Here's an article about it if you haven't seen it, it might interest some:

http://footlesscrow.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-first-ascent-of-suicide-wall.h...

 Sean Kelly 11 Jul 2020
In reply to tintinandpip:

> However, Suicide Wall route 1 is some outing for 1945, I can't imagine there was much of a queue for the second ascent. 

Joe Brown in 1949 in the rain. Leaders still frequently fall from that first little crux. The top bit is lovely climbing, reasonably protected mostly 5a/b.

Post edited at 17:35
In reply to Trangia:

I figured the OP would come to that judgement, partly why I linked to the climb rather than just suggest it by name.

The history, the way in which the use of a peg on British rock was rejected at a time of tension between the UK and Germany, makes it a route who's backstory is worth knowing about though.

T.

 GerM 11 Jul 2020
In reply to GerM:

> Simdde'r Foel

As everyone else is mostly mentioning routes of historical interest only to the climbing geeks amongst the population, maybe I should expand a little on my earlier suggestion in being not only potentially the earliest recorded route in Wales, but is also involved in a story about a national hero who is part of the whole reason that an idea of Welshness exists at all today, Owain Glyndwr himself.

In the words of the guidebook:

"On sight solo. A strong English party failed to follow!"

"A certain Owain Glyndwr on the run from a company of English army, he climbed Simdde'r Foel Hebog before fleeing across the summit of Moel Hebog to hide in a cave on Moel yr Ogof for six months, sustained by supplies from the Prior of Beddgelert"

"A solo test piece of it's time! The gully offers a few short pitches interspersed with noisy scree and good rock scenery."

 Myfyr Tomos 11 Jul 2020
In reply to GerM:

Da iawn Ger.

1
 static266 11 Jul 2020
In reply to GerM:

I climbed it last year in early March and The situation and surrounding rock is impressive. The final 5 metres were impossibly slimy so we retreated. I’ll have to try again after a dry spell. 

Post edited at 21:55
 PaulTclimbing 11 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Christmas Curry

In reply to Kemics:

In the lower grades, the Idwal Slabs are probably more steeped in history than any other Welsh crag. The whole span of early rock climbing (including some of the earliest women climbers), then the tragedy of the Great War, and then their use by the commandos as a training ground (I think spearheaded by Preston, who did the first ascent of the outrageously hard/serious-for-its-time Suicide Wall) throughout the second world war.

In reply to profitofdoom:

I read somewhere (perhaps in 'Snowdon Biography'?) that Preston openly admitted to having top-roped Suicide Wall about a dozen times prior to the first ascent. But, anyway, it was stupendous achievement, far ahead of its time, with virtually no protection. That, and Central Gully Direct on Lliwedd (done by Edwards), were the two routes that took Joe must by surprise when he repeated them, by just how hard they were. 

 GerM 12 Jul 2020
In reply to static266:

It has been a few years since I was on it, but your experience sounds similar to mine, but did make it through. I think slimy is the natural state of that particular section, not very hard, but feels disproportionately exposed halfway up that slab due with it seeming quite slippery. No real gear for the lead either, although it doesn't last long anyway, but found belays to make ascent for the second pretty safe. No idea how dry it needs to be to feel like rock.

I have also once found it in exceptional winter condition, I reckon at about grade II. Felt mostly like a grade l gully with one short pitch of steeper perfect snow bound ice, it was good fun.

 tintinandpip 12 Jul 2020
In reply to profitofdoom:

Very interesting. 
Thanks for that. 
 

 Trangia 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

There is a photo of a member of Lovat's Scouts (Commandos) climbing the Knight's Move on Grooved Arete during the Second World war in Thomas Paynter's "The Ski and the Mountain" pub 1954

 Mick Ward 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

> He has a keen interest in local and human history. I'd like to take him for a day in the hills with a human and historical interest; which route do you think has the best story/most interesting human history in N.wales?

> I was thinking maybe Hope on Idwal slabs or Grooved arete? Hope with a female first ascentionist in 1915 must have an interesting history but a brief google doesnt suggest much. 

Essentially I would go with Summo's reply. If you merely focus on one route, it will be so limiting. Showing him around Idwal will give a whole which will be so much more than the sum of the parts. The plaque to Darwin on the wall near the parking (just thinking about it brings tears to my eyes). Then going up to the lake and seeing the place unfold. The princes maybe drowned in the lake. The slabs. Why Hope was so named. Original Route - I A Richards and Dorothy Pilley. The Meaning of Meaning (Didn't some wag write 'The Meaning of The Meaning of Meaning'?) A young Colin Kirkus soloing Piton Route. Jack Longland on Javelin Blade. A stroll round to Suicide Wall - Ted Hicks' near ascent in 1928 (gulp!) and Chris Preston's in 1945. Joe Brown a few years later and then leading it again when he was 60. Further development of the wall, through to Pete Livesey's Zero.

My suggestion is to take him to Idwal - the place is simply drenched in history. What I've written above barely scratches the surface.

Mick

 Mick Ward 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I read somewhere (perhaps in 'Snowdon Biography'?) that Preston openly admitted to having top-roped Suicide Wall about a dozen times prior to the first ascent.

Wasn't there a story that David Cox, his Commanding Officer, gave him a direct order to top-rope it?

Mick

1
 GerM 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

While flicking through the guide for the earlier quotes, I was reminded of the more climbing related historical interest of some of the routes in that book, the earliest recorded climbs here amongst others dominated by  J M Archer Thompson and a certain George Mallory. Many are of a more 'traditional ' style of climbing from an earlier era, but some have a touch of a more modern style. Of particaular inerest may be Adam Rib HS (a route first recorded by JMA Thompson with a final pitch whose line was added by Mallory and Todhunter), LMH Moderate first climbed by a party from Oxford University Women's Mountaineering Club, or a number of Mallory routes such as Eastern Gutter VS (apparently one of the earliest VS routes in Wales), Yellow Buttress S (Craig Cwm Du) or Mallory's Ridge HVS 5a ("A fine climb which was unjustifiably neglected since it had acquired a notorious reputation for difficulty and looseness leading to its omission from Carr's guide").

Another opportunity to link to Footless Crow:

http://footlesscrow.blogspot.com/2011/12/rainbows-end.html

OP Kemics 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Trangia:

Thanks for your imput...and for getting the gist of what I'm after. Spiral stairs is definitely going on the short list  

I didn't know the history behind the FA of munich...although definitely a bit hard. 

OP Kemics 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Iain Thow:

> How about Slanting Buttress on Lliwedd? The cliff is full of early climbing history, there's the story of the 19th century miners looking for King Arthur's cave in the gully next door (and climbing Severe in the process), the positions are great and it's a reasonable grade for a non climber.

That's a great recommendation. His dad was a Welsh Lead miner (talk about a hard life!) so any mining history is especially welcome. I'd the Snakes and Ladders day out in the quarries (but skipping the chain) 

OP Kemics 12 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> Don't get drawn into the grade game. 

> Oggie T shack... head up tin can alley, mining history. Idwal opens out, key in the early theories of glaciation etc.. perhaps if they are a climber then ordinary route. Easy route but takes you up into the action, javelin blade being the alleged first e1 is visible etc. Then scramble up, head to cnieffion arete, then a choice; glyders aren't far off as the ascent is nearly done. Great views of Snowdon etc.. Then miners track back round to Oggie. Depending on age and ability, make it about viewing the best ogwen has to offer, you don't need to climb all of it. Even the added bits of the old bridge under the new one at ogwen etc if history is their thing. Or the old machine gun mounts there. 

That's a great recommendation. He is pushing 70 (although very fit) so he'll probably get way more out of day viewing climbs in context, rather than finding out exactly what his max grade is! Although Cnieffion Arete would add some wild positions 

OP Kemics 12 Jul 2020
In reply to GerM:

I think he'd definitely be piqued by the "English party failed to follow!" sounds right up his street I couldn't find the exact route though looking through the logbooks. Is the route called Glyndwr's Ladder? 

OP Kemics 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

He's just finished reading Joe Brown's autobiography, so showing him suicide wall and giving the history of Joe Brown climbing it in the rain would be excellent. Although perhaps from an adjacent and much easier route  

OP Kemics 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

Yeah, you're totally right. I was trying to focus on 1 route and a big day out, but he'll get way more from a general tour. You've obviously got way more knowledge about the area. Would you recommend any books that cover the history? I've got Jim Perrin's Snowdon book in my 'to read' stack. Otherwise I only have guidebooks for the area 

OP Kemics 12 Jul 2020
In reply to all:

Apologies from spamming the thread with replies. But I only just had the chance to respond and wanted to acknowledge everyone's suggestions as they are all excellent and food for thought. Already helped me re-imagine the day and I think he'll get way more out of it. 

 Mick Ward 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Eek, I don't really know any books, the above was just snippets of stuff I've picked up over the years. To my shame, I've not read Jim's Snowdon book. He really is erudite!

In truth, you've probably got enough off this thread for a great day out. It sounds as though your father in law is about the same age as me - so hopefully both of us have a few more years left in us! There's a whole world of discovery waiting for him. Hopefully The Hard Years will have whetted his appetite. A day in the hills could just be the beginning...

Mick

In reply to Kemics:

I say cwryfte Arete of however u spell it on Cadair Idris or Tryfan 

1
 GerM 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Yes, in the logbooks as 'Glyndwr's ladder'. Cwm Silyn and Cwellyn guidebook.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/moel_hebog-13735/glyndwrs_ladder-2...

Post edited at 22:47
 GerM 12 Jul 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

It is spelled Cyfrwy. Exactly as you say it (accounting for the different sound y makes in the first and last syllable in Welsh, and that the last y could potentially be a u).

Post edited at 22:55
In reply to Kemics:

> Spiral stairs is definitely going on the short list  

Spiral Stairs is not a good route for non-climbers. The hardest move is the very first one, and the route goes up and then round the buttress. The protection frequently falls out leaving the second unprotected, the leader is out of sight of the second and the rope frequently jams, (thus causing problem one).

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Spiral Stairs is an absurd suggestion for 'non-climbers'. Yes, the holds are big, but it's a massively exposed, poorly protected ascending traverse with, as you say, the leader out of sight. 

 summo 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

> Yeah, you're totally right. I was trying to focus on 1 route and a big day out, but he'll get way more from a general tour. You've obviously got way more knowledge about the area. Would you recommend any books that cover the history? I've got Jim Perrin's Snowdon book in my 'to read' stack. Otherwise I only have guidebooks for the area 

Snowdonia rocky rambles, covers geology, flora, fauna, history. .. the works. 

https://www.bookdepository.com/Snowdonia-Rocky-Rambles-Bryan-Lynas/97818505...

 Iain Thow 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

Alan Hankinson's "The Mountain Men" is really good on the early climbing history. Jim's Snowdon book is excellent (as is his more general The Hills of Wales). Showell Styles's "The Mountains of North Wales" has some great stories and lots of flavour. Harder to find but characterful is another "Mountains of Snowdonia", by Carr and Lister (1920's?).

(By the way Mick, I think the story about David Cox ordering Chris Preston to top rope Suicide Wall before leading it comes from one of Jim Perrin's articles - he certainly knew Cox).

 Mick Ward 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Iain Thow:

Many thanks. Can appreciate Cox's dilemma but think that, if I were him, I'd have done the same.

Fortunately it all worked out. I guess we'll always wonder what became of Chris Preston. A talented and brave climber.

Mick

 John2 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

'I guess we'll always wonder what became of Chris Preston'

15 years for armed robbery is one account that I have heard, he certainly seems to have gone to jail.

Post edited at 17:12
 Mick Ward 13 Jul 2020
In reply to John2:

I heard likewise - perhaps from the same (unvalidated?) source. So sad, if true.

A tricky business - you take young men, up for it, train them to be killing machines, maybe let them loose in society, with little thought as to the possible consequences.

I wonder if, released from prison, he went back to Idwal, looked up at Suicide wall, felt a quiet tinge of pride. I hope so.

Mick

 lithos 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Kemics:

if he's just finished The Hard Years then at least a view of Cromlech if not a route (flying butress maybe) would be essential, Cemetery Gates, the corner, the girdle ...  that and a trip as suggesgedt by Mick and Summo, to idwal, also mentioned in JB book as his beginnings as a traditional apprenticeship, 

a trip to petes eats and the slate quarries,  a view of cloggy or a walk up there in the evening...

but this is wales and the weather may not play ball


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