UKC

Topos - app versus web-site

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Andy Gamisou 21 Jul 2020

What do people prefer in terms of online guides/topos - climbing apps or (responsive) web-site content?  I'm in the process of planning an upgrade of such a beast and, having limited resources and energy, would like to focus on one or the other.


 The Pylon King 21 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Books.

1
 thepodge 21 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Wouldn't you just be better contributing your local stuff to something like 27 crags? I'd say ask to become a Rockfax mod but they don't have topo on their site. 

I like a good website to plan where I'm going, an app to get me to the right spot and a book to work from when I'm there. 

In reply to thepodge:

> Wouldn't you just be better contributing your local stuff to something like 27 crags?

Better get in touch with us at UKC and we will look at adding it to our Rockfax app. We are working with a number of third party guide producers these days and our system allows us to process the information and add it in a way that generates revenue for the producer. 

Alan

1
 scragrock 21 Jul 2020
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Rockfax is pretty much nonexistent in the Highlands so as an app up here is pointless, unfortunately 🤷🏼‍♂️

5
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 21 Jul 2020
In reply to scragrock:

> Rockfax is pretty much nonexistent in the Highlands so as an app up here is pointless, unfortunately

The Sottish section of the App covers Highland Outcrops South, Scottish Rock (1200 routes), Scottish Sport Climbs and Scottish WInter Climbs, so why pointless?

Chris

Post edited at 16:04
Andy Gamisou 22 Jul 2020
In reply to The Pylon King:

> Books.


"What do people prefer in terms of online guides/topos"

Andy Gamisou 22 Jul 2020
In reply to thepodge:

> Wouldn't you just be better contributing your local stuff to something like 27 crags?

It's pretty limited in terms of what it does, so no.  And why should I spend my own time, effort (and money) in developing some else's business? 

Post edited at 06:08
 Tigger 22 Jul 2020
In reply to The Pylon King:

Gotta agree, i don't like using my phone at the crag, Among other reasons i'm there to be 'disconnected' for a day, so they just feel like intrusion if I'm honest. There's also no way I'm getting my phone out of my pocket mid route somewhere like Gogarth, its just asking to be dropped.

 thepodge 22 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Because it's nice to help people out and they already have a website, app and followers which would help with your limited time and resources. 

If I'm somewhere new but don't feel it's worthwhile buying a book I'll check Rockfax then 27, after that it's a long slow process of Google searches. 

 scragrock 22 Jul 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Bouldering?

lack of signal/service make it unreliable 

2
 LucaC 22 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

It's 2020 so let's see the drive towards more app driven guidebooks with downloadable offline content! 

Personally, if I had the content and Rockfax could host and provide a revenue stream in return for a cut and their widely known brand, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me. 

Post edited at 07:58
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 22 Jul 2020
In reply to scragrock:

> Bouldering?

> lack of signal/service make it unreliable 

Ah, okay, I thought you meant proper climbing (joke btw). You can download all the topos you are interested in at home, then you don’t need a signal,

Chris

 robertmichaellovell Global Crag Moderator 22 Jul 2020
In reply to scragrock:

We (the SMC) are in the process of appifying some of our books and putting them in the Rockfax App, we've already got everything with a diagram available from Scottish Winter Climbs and Scottish Sport Climbs, and we are working out way through Scottish Rock Climbs too (Arran and Glen Nevis already available). We're also working on Highland Scrambles too.

 wbo2 22 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou: website,  I think.  Locally there's a lot of stuff being added to the online resource , so we'd be on weekly updates at times

 thepodge 22 Jul 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I have the book, my mate has the app. He says there's quite a few we've climbed that aren't in the app, we've also noticed quite a few grading differences between digital and printed. 

Personally I prefer a book for the simple reason that the information is bigger. 

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

We have been dealing with this question for a long time, in fact, I remember one of the first things we created in the early days of the UKClimbing site was a topo image of Malham with route lines you could click on to display the route info. This was in around 1997!

My conclusion after all this time is that you are actually talking about different things here, it isn’t an either/or. An app on a mobile device is still finding its place in climbing but we have seen a big take-up in usage for our app in the last year. My prediction is that a majority of people will be using an app to find their routes when at the crag within five years. This doesn’t mean the end of books, and I suspect many people will still use a combination of both but, as a method of finding routes, expect to see more and more people staring at phones when at crags.

One knock-on from the increase in Rockfax app take-up has been that users expect it to cover everything. We have received emails from people asking why a certain crag isn't covered in areas where we have never produced a print book. The best was someone asking for the entire Frankenjura! Everything available, all the time is what people expect nowadays.

So handheld mobile coverage is the future in terms of people using climbing information at crags. Interactive web-based coverage is different but also important. Our aim is to also have the Rockfax app information available via a web interface sometime in the future although this is a while away for sure. This is because big screens are still the best way to view topos when planning climbs and searching for crags. In effect, this is the inspiration section that is often said to be missing from the phone-sized app coverage. A book manages to do both which is a significant plus point and the reason that I expect printed guidebooks have a bright future as well.

The problem with mobile system is that they are incredibly hard and expensive to produce so your only real choice is to piggy-back on someone else's system. This reduces your control but can vastly increase your audience.

A web-based system is significantly easier especially if you combine it with some PDFs. In this case, it is not really even web-based, it is actually just digital print. This is fine but doesn’t move us forward particularly and is impossible to monetise although this may not be a priority for you. An interactive web-based system is significantly more work and probably a waste of time if you aren’t also doing a mobile one, or making your web-based system easy to print out, in which case you might as well just use PDFs.

Alan

 scragrock 22 Jul 2020
In reply to robertmichaellovell:

Will it be free?

or is It just another hurdle for the poor/ working class climber to stumble over? 

6
Andy Gamisou 23 Jul 2020
In reply to scragrock:

> Will it be free?

> or is It just another hurdle for the poor/ working class climber to stumble over? 

Well, mine will be free - although doesn't really help with regards to Scotland.

Andy Gamisou 23 Jul 2020
In reply to thepodge:

> Because it's nice to help people out and they already have a website, app and followers which would help with your limited time and resources.

I've already got a website app, so doesn't really help.  I'm looking to upgrade to something better and 27 crags is definitely not it.

> If I'm somewhere new but don't feel it's worthwhile buying a book I'll check Rockfax then 27, after that it's a long slow process of Google searches. 

Fair enough, although I'm this case the long slow process won't really occur since my current offering generally occupies the first half dozen results or so.  And there isn't a book.

 thepodge 23 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

In that case crack on, your limited time and resources comment made me think it'd be less developed than it is. 

 Mr. Lee 23 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

I use this website a lot for bouldering in my area around Oslo, also Nissedal and Bohuslän.

https://www.gryttr.com/

It's optimised for mobile use and functions like an app. I'm not sure what added functionality an actual app could offer for free content, other than maybe downloads? It can obviously be used with Android and Apple based phones, which I imagine makes it much simpler to build. 


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