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University and A levels

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mick taylor 13 Aug 2020

I posted about universities and Coronavirus a few months ago, stimulated some good debate which helped me get my head around ‘stuff’.  Listening to 5 Live now, lots of disappointment, mainly about getting into uni. But, with a potential reduction in over seas students (China esp), lots of parents saying ‘take a gap year’, on-line learning and lack of ‘student life’  making folk change their mind about going, i reckon it will be easier to get into the uni of choice.  The unis need the fees. 
Any thoughts?

 Dave B 13 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Is going to be a very challenging year for students and staff at unis. 

I think students will have a good chance of getting into their first choice uni even if their grades are lower, and in some cases distinctly lower.

There may be opportunities to upgrade uni as well... Maybe.

I know some unis have been offering foundation year students entry to year one of the degree too.

They need to fill places on their course ! 

 Dave B 13 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Essentials for learning this year will be a great Internet connection, a good laptop and second screen and a high level of motivation. 

That will be tough for some students, and  easier for  others

mick taylor 13 Aug 2020
In reply to Dave B:

My daughter is doing a Musical Theatre and Dance degree. In April,  our living room was turned into a dance studio, settee removed and an eight foot by six foot purpose built removable tap dancing floor installed by me.  An array of laptops, iPad and iPhones decorate the room. The living room is also the corridor to the front door, to which access is banned when dance in progression.   Couldn’t wait to get back to ‘normal’ at the end of July, but I’ve just been informed she will be at home for the first month or two of her final year. And all of this for an industry that looks trashed. Oh well, we are optimistic and in good spirits. 

 NorthernGrit 13 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

"take a gap year" and do what exactly? Travel? Get a job? Neither looking great options at the minute! Why not get a year of study out of the way and be a fresher in year 2?

I'm hoping that the HE situation isn't going to be as bad this year as feared on that basis but the realist in me is not so sure.

1
 Rob Parsons 13 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:>

My daughter is doing a Musical Theatre and Dance degree. In April,  our living room was turned into a dance studio, settee removed and an eight foot by six foot purpose built removable tap dancing floor installed by me.

Nice effort. 'Let's do the show right here!'

 ianstevens 13 Aug 2020
In reply to Dave B:

> Is going to be a very challenging year for students and staff at unis. 

Universities have really helped by getting rid of quite a few staff too; which will really help with the extra workloads associate with developing remote-teaching from scratch. 

1
 Wil Treasure 13 Aug 2020
In reply to Dave B:

> Essentials for learning this year will be a great Internet connection, a good laptop. 

These have been essential for nearly 20 years at university.

1
 yorkshire_lad2 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Think about it in terms of supply and demand.  No students means no universities.  All those people who work at universities need students in the universities to bring fees in.  All those nice admissions tutors who are interviewing you to be so generous to offer you a place also need you, otherwise they and their colleagues mostly won't have a place to work (mostly, no students = no income = no salaries).  It's not a race to the bottom to put bums on seats at any cost (to academic standards), but in the brave new post-covid world, aspiring students might have a bit more bargaining power when it comes to applying to university places, and there might be a bit less money in research budgets and grants to keep those academics in their research posts without students.

Old Skooled 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Chinese students are overwhelmingly concentrated in business schools and some STEM departments, so their loss is going to be very unevenly distributed. Many of these schools - especially business schools - have become very over reliant on specific, single overseas markets (not always China. For context, I've worked in two Russell Group business schools). A typical humanities department recruits almost entirely from the domestic market (I've also been head of a Russell Group humanities department) and may not experience any real drop in demand; indeed demand may grow if people decide there is no point in taking time off to travel or work. The other question is whether families will feel it is safe and worthwhile to send their child off under current conditions. I have a child about to start her fourth and final year and think she may as well get on and finish. She also doesn't live in university accommodation. If she was going to be a first year I might have my doubts. Overall, I expect the picture to be mixed and complex.

Happily I now work in Scandinavia. My institution has increased the number of undergraduate places available because of increased demand. 

1
Old Skooled 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Funnily enough I've just seen an email from the person who took over the department I used to head. They say the day was incredibly long and difficult with many very stressed and anxious students and parents. Some students were too emotional and upset to be able to make coherent decisions. I've worked on admissions day many times and can't ever remember that happening. It also sounds as though there is still a great deal of uncertainty of final numbers. It sounds like it has been an awful experience for many hard working faculty (even more so for the students, obviously).

This year really has exposed the deep dysfunction of the UK system of university of entry. When I explain it to foreign academics (and parents) they tend to be completely disbelieving. 

 wintertree 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Old Skooled:

> Chinese students are overwhelmingly concentrated in business schools and some STEM departments, so their loss is going to be very unevenly distributed

The loss of bums on seats will be concentrated as you say, but each of those seats brings in several times the income of a UK student, and much of that cash was probably being spent elsewhere in the universities, for example on servicing giant loans for the latest round of growth-anticipating building projects.  There’s been a lot of that going on in the sector in the last 5 years with multi-decade loans of between £200m and £1bn taken out to grow facilities.

To be fair I thought this was myopic because the income would dry up through politics not a pandemic...

Post edited at 11:57
Old Skooled 14 Aug 2020
In reply to wintertree:

True, the economic impact of losing students will be felt across universities. I was really only taking about recruitment outcomes, students' chances etc, as that's what the OP was largely about. 

In reply to wintertree:

Would it be an exaggeration to say that what this is all about is a desire of this government to scale down higher education? Fewer university places. The Tories have a deep hatred of academia because very well-educated, intelligent people are much less likely to vote for them. I honestly fear that it's just about as simple as that.

21
 Oceanrower 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> The Tories have a deep hatred of academia because very well-educated, intelligent people are much less likely to vote for them.

You don't half post some bollocks sometimes!

7
In reply to Oceanrower:

I threw that out as an outrageous suggestion, which is why I prefaced it with 'would it be an exaggeration?' Something to be seriously considered. I think it requires further thought before giving it a summary dismissal. Because ... just supposing it is the case? What often looks like bollocks, historically, has a way sometimes of turning out to be true. I can imagine you in medieval times telling Copernicus that he didn't 'half talk some bollocks sometimes.'

Post edited at 14:00
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 SouthernSteve 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

re: The Tories have a deep hatred of ...

The interesting question is what do they have a love for, except themselves. They seem on the face of things, in their popularist trumpian way at the moment, to never really give this away.

re: Exam results

It is terrible that this has happened, although I do not have an obvious solution. Young people will feel disadvantaged in a way that is not seen with normal exams, because this seems arbitrary and unfair. This will live with some for a long time, potentially if very unlucky for the rest of their lives. 

Post edited at 14:20
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 SouthernSteve 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Clearing is already closed at a few universities so I guess they have enough students or they are having to be quite careful about the possibility of more students with offers succeeding in their complaint over their grades

In reply to Oceanrower:

> You don't half post some bollocks sometimes!

There would be no contributor left on UKC if people couldn't 'half post some bollocks'. 

 Trevers 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Would it be an exaggeration to say that what this is all about is a desire of this government to scale down higher education? Fewer university places. The Tories have a deep hatred of academia because very well-educated, intelligent people are much less likely to vote for them. I honestly fear that it's just about as simple as that.

You know I'm incredibly skeptical about our lizard overlords, but I think this is a bit of a stretch. And if so, it'll backfire massively. For once they've pissed off not just the kids but their parents too.

Gavin Williamson, what a useless feckless idiot. Apparently he doesn't want to see people "promoted above their level". I suppose irony can shut up and go away.

1
 wintertree 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Would it be an exaggeration to say that what this is all about is a desire of this government to scale down higher education? 

I think some in government would like to "orthogonalise" the complex system that is currently HE, separating and streamlining the teaching and research components; NHSX and Dominic Cummings' DARPA plans are steps in this direction I think, as are the changes for "condensed" 18-month degrees.

 SouthernSteve 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Trevers:

> Gavin Williamson, what a useless feckless idiot. Apparently he doesn't want to see people "promoted above their level". I suppose irony can shut up and go away.

I wonder what his school report said? 'Often removes from one foot from mouth only to replace with the other' 
 

 Ridge 14 Aug 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> I wonder what his school report said? 'Often removes from one foot from mouth only to replace with the other' 

"Gavin would be out of his depth in a car park puddle"

 Trevers 14 Aug 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> I wonder what his school report said? 'Often removes from one foot from mouth only to replace with the other' 

"If he sucks up to the right people, might possibly manage to become a government secretary in a cabinet led by Boris Johnson, but will never do anything worthwhile with his life."

 lorentz 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Ridge:

"Gavin doesn't quite achieve the necessary levels of empty bravado, idleness and incompetence to be a junior estate agent... Perhaps he should look at a career in politics."

*Beaten to it by Trevers 

Post edited at 15:08
 Dave B 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Wil Treasure:

You may think that they have been essential, but they have not. Highly desirable, but not essential, as unis have invested in this equipment too. I have graduates in computer science who haven't had their own computers or have poor Internet connection .

This year remote teaching means they n must have these to engage in the learning. 

Post edited at 15:40
 im off 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

My son was down graded from AAA to ABC

They decided to give an a for his weakest subject and a b and c in the subjects he was cruising.

Hes been told he cant do his uni course with them grades.

It's a complete lottery and the grades for everyone are fairly meaningless.

So I get that you cant suddenly have a year where everyone does so much better. But this system has randomly decided the chosen ones. 

Unless theres a change, he'll do october exams. At least these will be a true measure of ability.

1
 George Ormerod 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

> Any thoughts?

Who's going to pay nine grand a year for an online course, where you don't get valuable life experience such as being sick all over yourself on the bus from Nottingham city centre to Clifton.

1
 SouthernSteve 14 Aug 2020
In reply to im off:

I am really sorry to hear this. I say go for it at retake and prove the b...s wrong. The mechanism based on prior school statistics is deeply unfair. 

 Yanis Nayu 14 Aug 2020
In reply to im off:

> My son was down graded from AAA to ABC

> They decided to give an a for his weakest subject and a b and c in the subjects he was cruising.

> Hes been told he cant do his uni course with them grades.

> It's a complete lottery and the grades for everyone are fairly meaningless.

> So I get that you cant suddenly have a year where everyone does so much better. But this system has randomly decided the chosen ones. 

> Unless theres a change, he'll do october exams. At least these will be a true measure of ability.

Sorry to hear that. Difficult to take exams for stuff you haven’t studied for months. Is there an appeal process? 

 neilh 14 Aug 2020
In reply to im off:

What subject did he want to do at uni?

 nniff 14 Aug 2020
In reply to im off:

That's galling/  Have a look at this:  https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/14/punishment-by-statistics-...

It's got to be open to challenge how a statistical method can be applied to an individual case to determine a specific result with any demonstrable accuracy.  

When my daughter did her A levels they omitted a big chunk of the Biology syllabus completely in the exam.  She dropped a grade as a result, but fortunately got what she needed.  They had the f*ckwit-in-charge on the Today programme the next day, who assured John Humphreys that "No student would be disadvantaged".   I was bellowing at the radio "How are you gong to do that then, idiot - tell me NOW"  Humpheys let it go. Never forgiven him for that.  One kid in my daughter's class never made it as a doctor as a result. 

I am livid on your behalf.  My wife is a Governor at a 'privileged' school.  One of their worst results was a predicted A marked down to an E.

1
 nniff 14 Aug 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> I wonder what his school report said? 'Often removes from one foot from mouth only to replace with the other' 

Probably, "Gavin sets himself low standards and fails to achieve them".

These days, "As a Minister,  Gavin's Department follows him out of curiosity to see what his next blunder will be"

 im off 14 Aug 2020
In reply to neilh:

Mechanical engineering. Taking a year out was the plan. Sheffield. So obviously it's very important he gets in. I had quite alot of visits to stanage riding on this😂. But seriously....we're pissed off.

Yeah he's appealing. And yeah its grim taking exams this far on. They didn't finish the curriculum either. 

 im off 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Well there is but it's not fully organized yet (what a fng surprise😂).

 im off 14 Aug 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Yeah that's my thoughts. The private and state school discrepancy is unbelievable. Well the whole lot is. Maybe they should have examined everyone. Dont know what the answer is. It's a shambles.

1
 S.Kew 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Possibly the best thing that could happen to those students. Why? Universities continue to offer useless degrees, that have one purpose. which is to get tuition fees. They care not if the student gets into debt. They care nothing about the student and what job they get post uni. It is one of the biggest scandals of the modern era and one which is slowly being found out for what it is. A con.  

9
 S.Kew 14 Aug 2020
In reply to mick taylor:

Good luck with that. Not wishing to put a downer on yourself, but that is an absolute waste of money and time. Universities have drawn in yet another lot of fees. University degrees used to mean something. Now they mean nothing. The brightest students that deserve to go to uni will prosper and so they should. The majority will come out with a useless degree.

8
 Bobling 14 Aug 2020
In reply to im off:

The nub of it is that once you take the exams away there is no way of doing this fairly (and there's a whole discussion about the fact that exams are unfair, but at least we understand how they are unfair).  Whichever way you cut the cake someone was going to get stuffed.  However with the late changes that have been implemented  the whole process has been incredibly stressful for everyone.  More so than it needed to have been.

Unfortunately for anyone appealing/sitting further exams I don't understand how places at University for this year will open up, which is one of the grossest injustices.  The places all went yesterday.  You can find out you have been unfairly treated or ace the exams in October but that still wont get you onto the course you want to do at the place you want to do it in...October.

So I'd suggest that you carefully plan how to turn the situation to your son's advantage.  Accept that you are not going to get there this year but start planning for how you are going to get there (or somewhere better) next year, whether that is through exams in October, appeals, or retaking the exams next year if the other two don't go your way.  Once you have that sorted out you can make the most of the gift of some breathing space this year - industry applicable work experience is probably the best you can do, and could lead to placements/internships/a whole different approach to a Mech End degree with the benefit of some real world experience before your lad goes to Uni.  It could also be a stand out feature of an application for Uni next year.  The Gap Year isn't dead either - you just need to plan with COVID in mind.  The opportunity to have several months doing *something* could be a once in a lifetime gift, particularly for someone who goes straight from their degree into a career.  I haven't looked into it but I would be willing to bet that a couple of weeks of quarantine in NZ/Aus might unlock some fairly unique seasonal work opportunities at the moment.

I feel awful for all the young people who have had their University dreams shattered for this year...but it is not forever.  Many of the students who I work with who make me happiest when they graduate are those who have hit stumbling blocks and fought their way round or over them, taking five years to do a three year degree for example.  Be really pissed off, acknowledge it's a shit deal but then come back bigger and better next year.  *cue Rocky music*.

Oh - this year is going to be an absolute car crash anyway for freshers, far far better to come next year when we have some sort of idea of how the hell it is all going to work and what the pandemic is going to look like over a winter.

Best of luck for you and your son.

 SouthernSteve 14 Aug 2020
In reply to S.Kew:

What a negative post. Universities did not introduce the fee system and for many students, university is where they grow up and develop in what can be an immersive melting pot. They are also possibly escaping from homes with rigid ideas about how they should run their lives, perhaps telling them that tertiary education is pointless and to just go an get a job, get married and have children etc. 

1
 S.Kew 14 Aug 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

I would love to say all universities are great. All students who go, go onto a great job (in the industry they have studied) and live a prosperous live. The reality is they don’t. Universities offer degrees in any subject going for one purpose. Money. Does not matter whether it is a student loan or paid upfront. The uni gets their money no matter what. So it may be negative. But open your eyes to the con that it is. I have mentioned in previous threads, that the government and unis need to carry out a study of how many students go into a career, that is relevant to the degree that the person has gained. They won’t do that, as they know that it will show what a con it is. £30-60k debt for nothing. 

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 Offwidth 14 Aug 2020
 Yanis Nayu 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

That’s interesting. 

 S.Kew 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Good read. 
Better story would be going back until Labour pledged to get 50percent into uni and a study revealing how many actually went into a job relevant to their degree. 
Jobs which have previously and for many years, were always training on the job jobs, that now require degrees. Strange? In years to come the youth will start asking a question more and more. Why did i get £££££ in debt, to go to university to now work in a job that i didn’t study for? 

2
 Robert Durran 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Has anyone looked at whether there is a bigger discrepancy this year between estimates and grades awarded than in a normal year? Or is there just more fuss this year because it is easier to argue with an algorithm than what you did in an exam? I'm really thinking of the bulk of changes (mostly down one grade) rather than real outliers.

Post edited at 22:08
1
 Bobling 14 Aug 2020
In reply to S.Kew:

> I have mentioned in previous threads, that the government and unis need to carry out a study of how many students go into a career, that is relevant to the degree that the person has gained. They won’t do that, as they know that it will show what a con it is. £30-60k debt for nothing. 

Unless I have completely misunderstood you they do - it's called the Teaching Excellence Framework and contains a component that focuses on student outcomes.  TEF is relatively new but there has also been something called Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education (DLHE) which has tried for many years to gain data on where students go after they graduate.  DLHE has now been replaced by something else called the Graduate Outcomes Survey which tries to do something similar.  One problem is that it is tough to get this data.  I've spent many hours trying to contact ex-students to ask them what they are up to!  It's also very hard to tie what is a relevant career to a particular degree outside of the obvious things like training medical folk and chartered engineers etc.  

I'd also politely like to refute your allegation that the only reason universities teach is for money.  Of course like any other organisation money is extremely important for universities so that people get paid and buildings and labs stay open.  But to suggest that making money is the sole function of a university is to do a gross disservice to all those who dedicate their whole working lives to the purpose of sharing knowledge and carrying out research.

 S.Kew 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Bobling:

The government could get hold of any student any time, to see what job they are doing and therefore assess the data. Thats if they really wanted to. 
Universities used to mean something. As did a degree. Don’t get me wrong, some degrees are outstanding, as are the students and courses offered. Those degrees should always be offered. But it is absolutely undeniable that alot of degrees are useless and not needed. The lecturers who teach these useless degrees are doing nothing to help their students, as most will not go into a job relevant to that degree. But they will continue to lecture in it as they get paid to do so. Like the uni management, they realistically do not care what their students are doing post degree jobwise, as they do it to earn a wage. They may keep in touch via facebook etc. But do they really care about what jobs their past students are doing. Doubtful.

6
 Bobling 14 Aug 2020
In reply to S.Kew:

> The government could get hold of any student any time, to see what job they are doing and therefore assess the data. Thats if they really wanted to. 

How would the government do this?  When I was doing it we used phone interviews but something as basic as getting a working number was tough, and then catching someone when they were at home and wanted to go through a questionnaire was the next step, then you got those who for whatever reason didn't want to tell you about it and got very defensive.  It sounds easy but it isn't.  Presume you do get them you then have to work out if the job they are doing at the accountancy firm is commensurate with their Economics degree or if they are serving bangers and mash in the cafeteria.  Also when do you do this - a year after graduation, or five years?  Further out you go the harder the contact details get but the *better* in some sense the data.  My point is that it is that it is not as straight forward as you might think!  Of course if we lived in a totalitarian state it would be as easy as you suggest but thank god we don't!

> Universities used to mean something. As did a degree. Don’t get me wrong, some degrees are outstanding, as are the students and courses offered. Those degrees should always be offered. But it is absolutely undeniable that alot of degrees are useless and not needed. The lecturers who teach these useless degrees are doing nothing to help their students, as most will not go into a job relevant to that degree. But they will continue to lecture in it as they get paid to do so. Like the uni management, they realistically do not care what their students are doing post degree jobwise, as they do it to earn a wage. They may keep in touch via facebook etc. But do they really care about what jobs their past students are doing. Doubtful.,

Ah mickey mouse degrees. That's a whole other debate but I'd suggest that most uni staff are intensely interested in where their students go because a) we are humans and it's nice when we hear from people we like, and we do tend to like our students and b) as in my post above the government kicks universities if their student outcomes are not appropriate.  It's extremely important to us, and becoming ever more so where our students get to!

Anyway I think we are distracting from the focus of the OP.  I'm not trying to pick a fight S.Kew but trying to reassure that there are legions of people who worry intensely about this stuff A LOT - in fact lots of them are burning out right now because they are worrying too much about it in these turbulent times.

 S.Kew 14 Aug 2020
In reply to Bobling:

It is good to hear another side of any discussion. It is also relevant to the OPS post. I also understand that it is within the university employees interest to turn a blind eye and bury their heads in the sand, so that they continue to get paid. All opinions. 
Good luck all.
 

3
 im off 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Bobling:

Yeah true. It wont set him back in the long run. Lets hope most of the bright sparks who've been dealt a poor hand will persevere. Life lessons and all that. 

Work experience is a good idea. Mind you that might be hard with covid chaos and restrictions. We will look into that tho.

 Blue Straggler 15 Aug 2020
In reply to S.Kew:

Do you know what you are on about? Are you a clever and wise cynic? Or are you projecting some sort of bitterness?

My questions are neither rhetorical nor “accusing”. I am genuinely curious. You string together some nice phrases and long words with only the occasional typo, so it looks like you are intelligent and passionate 

Removed User 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

When I worked as a college lecturer, I could not fail a student. It was a college of FE and the whole system was geared to "bums on seats". The premise was this; a student needed to pass their 1st year course as it then qualified them to move on to the next level. Think National certificate, to national diploma to higher national diploma to degree. The result was students who were attempting to complete courses they had no business being on and passing those courses. All based on funding and income for the college.

In the end, of course, its all an irrelevance. The illusion of measuring intelligence based on how well someone follows a set curriculum is fundamentally flawed. Yet it does serve a purpose, it acts as a supply limiter and allows the mediocre to retain a level of control. 

1
In reply to wintertree:

> > Would it be an exaggeration to say that what this is all about is a desire of this government to scale down higher education? 

> I think some in government would like to "orthogonalise" the complex system that is currently HE, separating and streamlining the teaching and research components; NHSX and Dominic Cummings' DARPA plans are steps in this direction I think, as are the changes for "condensed" 18-month degrees.

I think this is true, but the timeline stretches back way before the current administration. A quick look at current EPSRC funding shows it already mostly resides in the top 30 Unis, and is further concentrated in the top 5 (Imperial, UCL etc). Same for doctoral training centres. Out in the private sector, it’s the same, all the Rolls-Royce University Technology Centres are in Russell Group Unis, AMRC, NAMRC, Boeing, also the same. 
The bottom 70 or 80 comprise mostly ex Polys overwhelmingly delivering teaching.

I think this would look the same if we took a snapshot prior to ‘92, except the Poly staff weren’t being beaten with the research stick for institutional metrics and concentrated on what they did really well back then. Given that the FE sector has taken on what used to be called vocational teaching, then it looks like a scaled down HE sector would make survival very difficult for some of the ex Polys.

 neilh 15 Aug 2020
In reply to im off:

That is  really tough , what a mess. .It might be better for him to get his grades up in technical subjects. Otherwise he may struggle during 1st year. Engineering is an animal like that. I am  sure you know this. 
 
I hope it works out ok for him.

 IM 15 Aug 2020
In reply to S.Kew:

> The government could get hold of any student any time, to see what job they are doing and therefore assess the data. Thats if they really wanted to. 

> Universities used to mean something. As did a degree. Don’t get me wrong, some degrees are outstanding, as are the students and courses offered. Those degrees should always be offered. But it is absolutely undeniable that alot of degrees are useless and not needed. The lecturers who teach these useless degrees are doing nothing to help their students, as most will not go into a job relevant to that degree. But they will continue to lecture in it as they get paid to do so. Like the uni management, they realistically do not care what their students are doing post degree jobwise, as they do it to earn a wage. They may keep in touch via facebook etc. But do they really care about what jobs their past students are doing. Doubtful.

All Unis are under obligation to make publicly available 'Employability' stats. Including the extent of graduate level employment. A lot of effort goes into getting this information. 'Employability' has been a big part of what Unis do for years now, for better or worse. Endless league tables relating to each UK University and particular subjects are easily available, e.g. the recent 2020 Guardian University Guide.

Post edited at 10:12
 Offwidth 15 Aug 2020
In reply to neilh:

As a recently retired Engineering lecturer I'd rather such a student do something useful that would inspire his engineering outlook or gain some new skills or even just have a break, than redo A levels.

 Offwidth 15 Aug 2020
In reply to IM:

... this data is part of a huge game of emperor's new clothes. Go read the submissions from RSS to the government on TEF

https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/correspondence/concerns-regarding-te...

 IM 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> ... this data is part of a huge game of emperor's new clothes. Go read the submissions from RSS to the government on TEF

Oh aye, it's a load of f*cking shite. But S.Kew's notion that HE doesn't care whether student's get jobs or not is similar. 

Post edited at 10:23
 wintertree 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> ... this data is part of a huge game of emperor's new clothes.

Making the emperor’s new clothes only employed two swindlers...  

 neilh 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I would agree , there again I suspect t he is going to struggle to find something in the current climate that might help. Do you know of anybody in engineering company’s at the moment who would take him on?

 Offwidth 15 Aug 2020
In reply to neilh:

Sadly I have no current access to anything work related. Still waiting to clear my office from April. My advice would be to contact the regional IMechE with a view to arrange short visits to local companies and to join immediately as a student. As a plan B I have quite a few good friends at SHU and know they have good standards and  look after students well.. visiting there might be useful.

Post edited at 11:05
 AllanMac 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> You don't half post some bollocks 

Dismissing a genuine thought as ‘bollocks’ without explanation and a little critical analysis, is a time-honoured tactic for aggressively shutting someone down. Either that, or a raw nerve has been touched. Which is it? 

4
 AllanMac 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Thank you. 
The wielders of blunt instruments and commissioners of life-chance-ruining algorithms might be advised to read those, to trust the teaching profession, and to reconsider the worth of an exam-based system in the first place. 

2
baron 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> In reply:

> Getting interesting

Labour mayor sees chance to stick it to Conservative government using taxpayers money.

Who’d have thought?

3
 profitofdoom 15 Aug 2020
In reply to S.Kew:

> It is good to hear another side of any discussion. It is also relevant to the OPS post. I also understand that it is within the university employees interest to turn a blind eye and bury their heads in the sand, so that they continue to get paid. All opinions. 

> Good luck all.

You really don't know much about universities, do you?

1
 im off 15 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Will look into this. Thanks. His uncle is a mech engineer in the oil industry so I'll chase him too.

I know nothing about mech eng....I'm a vet.

To top it all, he's recovering (very well) from a craniotomy 4 weeks ago following a subdural haematoma....trauma induced.....he's learning the tough way. Does mean he needs to sit quietly for a few weeks so 8 weeks revision might not be so bad.

 im off 15 Aug 2020
In reply to neilh:

Thanks. Worth thinking about.

 Offwidth 16 Aug 2020
In reply to im off:

Seriously... If he's at home at least read up on likely subjects to be studied or something inspiring on mechanical engineering as a profession as well; A level content is much less relevant. Presumably he is only looking at exams in 2 subjects he is already very good at. If you look at the links above, the flawed algorithm often drops excellent candidates a grade or more, so he has every reason to be confident.... with the organisation and study diligence engineering types have he should be fine.

 wintertree 22 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

The key paragraph to me:

> Taylor’s threat to resign carried significant weight with ministers because he is a non-executive chair rather than an Ofqual employee. Without the presence of formal constraints on speaking out, he would be free to divulge communications with ministers and criticise the government. Williamson has faced repeated questions as to when he became aware of the algorithm’s flaws

 neilh 22 Aug 2020
In reply to wintertree:

That is  a non threat in reality . Assuming there is a HofC enquiry, then that detail will be revealed anyway. 

1
 Offwidth 22 Aug 2020
In reply to neilh:

For a 'non threat' it seemed to have both effective timing and traction. The fiiasco was the major news story and the threat influenced the GCSE results public handling and neither would be the case if left to when any enquiry is published.

Post edited at 09:42
 neilh 22 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I doubt Williamson was interested at all in the Algorithm after all he is blatantly incompetent.I also doubt that Williamson is at all bothered about Taylor. 

 Offwidth 23 Aug 2020
In reply to neilh:

Seems other important tory MPs care, so he might be in serious trouble.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/aug/23/senior-tories-turn-on-gavi...

 planetmarshall 23 Aug 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Has anyone looked at whether there is a bigger discrepancy this year between estimates and grades awarded than in a normal year? Or is there just more fuss this year because it is easier to argue with an algorithm than what you did in an exam? I'm really thinking of the bulk of changes (mostly down one grade) rather than real outliers.

Debra Kidd addresses that question here - in which she argues that the statistical correction made is *always* wrong - every year. 

https://debra-kidd.com/2020/08/15/what-really-went-wrong-with-exams-2020

For a more technical overview of the algorithm and its flaws see this post:

http://thaines.com/post/alevels2020

 BnB 23 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Apparently Williamson owes his astonishing portfolio of briefs (Defence Secretary ffs) to his machiavellian efforts to secure the dirt on every one of his Tory rivals, presumably put to good use in his support for Boris in recent times. No wonder the backbenchers and no doubt some of the cabinet are keen to see the back of him.


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