UKC

Recently bought some rock technologies liquid chalk for use at a wall which only allows liquid chalk atm. Didn’t both to check it,  it felt a bit strange on the hands - turns out it contains rosin which is pine resin. I thought we’d moved away from using this as a community. Heads up really - check your liquid chalk before you touch rock!

This was discussed on here a few weeks back. The holds at my local bouldering wall were definitely feeling a bit different last time I went and I assume this was rosin residue.

It's also worth bearing in mind that maybe 1% of the population have a contact allergy to rosin (colophony) so people will start getting bad skin reactions.

Obviously missed this - was news to me. Thanks.

Weirdly, if you google - it barely any of the suppliers admit to this. I've been wondering why the one gym I go to that insists on liquid chalk just felt like garbage on friction holds

Which one? The wall I've been going to recently is liquid chalk only. At first I thought the holds felt grim because I was using less chalk (one dab of liquid chalk every 45 mins or so) because I want some skin left. Now I suspect its because they're covered in resin... can I blame my shit footwork on this too? 

We got handed free bottles of psychi liquid chalk without ingredients lists on them at our local wall. I've just checked the ingredients list of the psychi website:

Composition - Magnesium Carbonate (8.5%), SD Alcohol (85%), Hydropropylcellulose (2.5%), Colophonium (4%).

Is the colophonium rosin?

Google suggests yes - think I'll be making my own from now on!

The Climbing Lab in Leeds. I've almost given up going there.

Yes it is.

Are you allowed to use conventional chalk too? Or is it mandated liquid only?

Excuse my ignorance.  What is wrong with this Rosin you speak of?

Is it in the Mantle Liquid chalk which is what we use?

I must admit there has been a change in the grip on a lot of holds since covid came about.  Partly i accept due to liquid chalk residue but i honestly believe peoples attitudes to brushing holds has declined too.  I hardly ever see anyone brushing holds these days and some of them just need a good brush to get them grippy again.  Are people avoiding brushing as some sort of covid risk?

Rosin is a pine resin. Rather than brushing off it will accumulate on holds and ruin them (see "pof").

The other problem is that quite a few people have a contact allergy to the stuff - particularly people with things like eczema. They'll get skin reactions from using it, and if sensitive enough, from climbing in places where it's used.

https://dermnetnz.org/topics/rosin-allergy/

(edited to add link)

The hassle is it becomes sticky when warmed so good for grip but it is also used dissolved in alcohol as varnish when it hardens. Ban it for climbing.

The majority of liquid chalks use resin. I believe a pure chalk/alcohol mixture is too watery.

Ingredients list Colophonium, so yes.

I agree enitrely. I think with the push for liquid chalk as a replacement for hand sanitiser its use has become a lot more widespread, and people are unsuspecting. Bad news for rocks - it would be good to see someone (the BMC/UKC) run some sort of awareness campaign? Mods if you're reading this... hint hint

At our local wall its liquid chalk only because of covid and the high alcohol content. Their policy is that we should all use the liquid chalk between each route to disinfect the holds.

That's a lot of liquid chalk; must be horrific for the skin? Like above, mine is liquid chalk only, but I use it c. 3 times per session. No masks though, which seems more likely to spread any potential CoViD than hold contact - and at a wall which had a CoViD scare recently. 

Hi Qwerty, yes it contains rosin (it always has, as someone on here has pointed out alcohol and chalk only woud be grim stuff.....

The rosin / pof isnt really the stuff that does your skin in (for those that suffer), its the alcohol content - so i would strongly recommend washing hand regulary and thoroughly dureing climbing sessions if you do start to get skin probs. And use hand cream afterwards (which Mantle can also supply should the representative of talented junior climbers ask).....I'm just waiting to see whether its going to be worth continuing after the new year given brexit, we have some decent new products out recently......

Between each route seems like overkill to me, but i'm loathe to criticise walls for their individual decisions; these have been made with safety foremost trying to make the business as safe as possible so they can continue trading if at all possible in the very difficult circumstances they found themselves in this year.

It's less skin I was worried about; more the effect of cumulative resin use on rock - habits from walls become habit outside. Especially when the climbing community pretty much stopped using resin a very long time ago outdoors.

I'd have to agree. Liquid chalk is imho not suitable for outside use, plain chalk is more than adequate. Indoor holds can be cleaned and replaced if necessary; not so outdoors.

Also, didn't demontfort uni recently show that pure chalk prevents contact transmission just as well?

The whole thing smacks of a nimby understanding of infection.

Either you have covid or you don't. If you don't have covid, the only thing you need to do is wash your hands when you come in, incase you picked up formites whilst going to the wall. No need for alcohol chalk. 

If you do have covid and you're symptomatic, you don't go to the wall. No need for alcohol chalk.

If you have covid and you aren't symptomatic, when you have chalk on your hands you aren't touching your face or your mouth. You don't sweat covid out through your hands. The whole touching thing transmission is about touching eyes/mouth/nose then touching a hold. No need for alcohol chalk, but probably a need to wear a mask when not off the ground. 

It isn't that hard.

I'd generally agree with you here - the risk is being asymptomatic and going to the wall, and then breathing on people. I'm not up on the literature, but contact transmission is, IIRC, pretty low - its all about aerosols. As for the chalk study... the less said about the scientific rigour of that the better But regarding contact, I very much avoid touching any of my orifices/mucus membranes when my hands are covered in the stuff. Respiratory viruses aren't going to seep through my skin. 

I hate both wearing and a mask* and using liquid chalk, in equal measure. I'd much prefer to, and feel safer, with mask wearing at the wall and the use of powdered chalk than the opposing, seemingly prevailing scenario. 

*This isn't new - I've often had to wear a mask for lab work over the years, and I hated them then too. Unfortunately, they're pretty effective. 

I had a look last time this came up and thankfully a lot of the climbing specific liquid chalks don't, so there must be some other stabilisers that are used. As an example, Friction Labs, Mammut and DMM don't. It's quite crap that a lot of manufacturers don't even give an ingredients list, especially as some people are allergic to rosin.

Yes, the main risk is having numbers of people in an enclosed space for a prolonged period of time.

There's been only a few recorded instances of possible transmission via surfaces. I think the liquid chalk thing is a hangover from the initial period where handwashing, but not masks was recommended.

Personally I'm avoiding the bouldering wall at the moment. Over 1% of the local population tested positive in the last 2 weeks so it's almost certain there will be a-/pre-/minimally symptomatic people there daily, especially as cases are more concentrated in younger people.

The "report" you mention was litlle more than industry sponsored marketing. Insignificant sample size, questionable analogue and no peer review. It should never have been circulated as it has lead to misconceptions and false assurances. 

As for pof, in a wall situation, clean or replace holds more often, this is easily done. I suspect this uproar is the usual uk knee jerk reaction when rosin is mentioned though. The amount included in the chalk, plus the presence of chalk will likely prevent the rosin from veneering like it does when used alone. 

My veneering comments also stand for rock. Liquid chalk is commonly used in euro hot rock venues, I have not seen evidence of it, nor have I heard complaints about pof veneering occurring. It would be easy to notice, as it would be the starting holds. 

A thought that I like to throw about in these pof rants is this:

What state would bridestones be in if pof had been used there like at font. There is a fair chance it would have helped stabilise the pockets, lessening the issues we have today. 

Things are rarely straightforward. 

Hi Ian, thanks for that.  TBH she hasnt had a single issue with the Mantle liquid chalk.  It seems to work well, hasnt given her any skin issues even on young sensitive skin and is lasting pretty well too.  She uses it in conjunction with normal chalk (Bit difficult to reapply liquid chalk whilst up on a rope).  She does tend to get pestered by me to clean/sanitise her hands regular if she isnt on the actual wall.

Fingers crossed this brexit situation works out for you.  You can imagine the extra cost its going to put on our products.....

It's less skin I was worried about; more the effect of cumulative resin use on rock - habits from walls become habit outside. Especially when the climbing community pretty much stopped using resin a very long time ago outdoors.

Getting them to brush holds indoors would be a good start

If only