UKC

Does anyone know if ropes can be damaged by paraffin contamination?

yes

This is not a question you should ever be asking because it doesn't matter if the answer from someone on UKC is yes or no.

THROW THEM AWAY! TODAY!!

Yes, someone knows?

How much, and for how long? probably not.

But I'm not a rope expert.

I'd imagine there must be some data available in some corner of the Internet, perhaps if you substitute nylon in place of rope.

My gut feeling: does paraffin damage ropes? Probably not. Would I continue to climb on ropes that I'd spilt paraffin all over? Probably not.

Remember you should discard all modern science and the use of analysis and evidence and just throw it away if someone, somewhere, anywhere feels doubt regarding it.

This is worth a look: http://archsafety.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ICOP-September-2013_1.pdf

Annex J is the relevant bit (climbing rope is made of polyamide, and aviation (jet fuel) is essentially kerosene I believe. No distinguishable effect is shown...

If it was my rope, would I keep using it... don’t know.

Ropes are made from a jumble of hydrocarbons. Oil, kerosene etc are also a jumble of hydrocarbons. If I remember my equipment inspection course correctly most mineral oil products have little effect on ropes, but acids are a killer.

how about this:

https://www.foxxlifesciences.com/pages/nylon-chemical-compatibility

https://www.plasticsintl.com/chemical-resistance-chart

Nylon is generally chemically resistant to oils and fuels, gasoline, mineral spirits, and some alcohols.

compatibility with paraffin - Excellent / A (i.e. no detrimental effect)

you'll get much the same info, from many other sources, for any number of users for nylon.

I'm more of a lurker than a poster on these forums really, but this question (or some variation of it) comes up on a regular basis. I often find myself replying to these threads. If you're having to ask the question, the answer is: bin it. You might get some very confident sounding responses telling you to go ahead and use the rope, and they may be from far more knowledgeable people than myself. However, for what it's worth, I've got a PhD in polymer chemistry and I wouldn't be certain enough of the safety implications to tie in and use a rope that had been doused in anything other than water (limited saltwater exposure and pure soap aside).

Edit: And in a similar situation (a diffuser-type air freshener leaked all over my gear) I actually did retire all my slings, ropes, etc. Dyneema and nylon would almost certainly have been fine, but was I going to chance it for the sake of a couple of hundred quid? No.

thanks for the link,

yea, the closest you'll find is "aviation fuel" (Table J.1 page 172)

There's an easy way to check the strength of your rope AND appear magnanimous to your climbing partner- simply utter the phrase "your lead" upon your next outside trip, combined with a really good sandbagging, it sorts out the true rope rotter like no other.

Really, all that knowledge, and data, and you'd limit yourself to water?

To the OP.

For me it would depend on how much paraffin?

How long?

How old the rope is?

How rich I was?

What sort of climbing I did and how many, and what sort of, falls I expected to take.

P.s. I drank paraffin once, in school for a bet, £2. It wasn't worth it, but I didn't die.

I think the litmus test is 'how will I feel about this if I'm committed above gear and I suddenly remember the time that I spilt [] on ropes?'

It's no good having functional ropes if the thought of climbing on them terrifies you.

Just go climbing with someone you don't like and ensure they lead the first crux.

If the rope holds when they fall (a small tug can assist in getting this started), then you're in luck!  If not, then you've solved a different problem.

The last thing I want in my mind up above a runner or bolt about to take a whipper, is even the slightest thought of "is my rope ok?"

That's probably right it may be fine but its the little seeds of doubt that get sown in ones mind.

It does look to be ok if there is paraffin contamination nevertheless.

Thanks for everyone's comments

It's really not that simple! One 'jumble of hydrocarbons' could be good a solubilising another 'jumble of hydrocarbons' or it might not be.

Ropes are cheap especially when compared to the expected value of the rest of your life.

I can’t think of *that* many other bulk liquids that a climbing rope is likely to come into contact with, beyond the various chemicals that might be in one’s house or car, those primarily being cleaning products (detergents, strong bases etc), acids, and organic-solvent-based systems (lubricants, paints, fuels....), none of which would pass the test for me, personally. I’m sure if we considered all possible liquids, there’s a chance we could find something I’d be relatively comfortable with, but as a practical rule of thumb, water and soap are the things I’d be happy getting on a rope. And as chemistry isn’t always as predictable as we might like it to be, I wouldn’t want to declare something safe only on the basis that I myself can’t think of a degradation mechanism, because that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. And it is all very well saying a particular polymer is inert to a particular chemical agent, and so won’t react with it, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be dissolved, or swelled, or otherwise weakened. Of course, I don’t have a problem with whatever dye is used for middle markers etc, but if putting one on the rope myself I’d be looking for a product specifically for that purpose, where possible. I just think that, beyond that, the benefit of water, soap, etc is that we do have masses of empirical evidence to show that there is no significant risk posed, and as a species I’d hazard that we understand water better than any other chemical in the universe. We don’t have that degree of knowledge when it comes to all our other bulk chemicals, and we especially don’t know all the minutiae of their interactions with all synthetic polymers. As I say, paraffin is likely to be fine, but personally, either by personality or training, my instinct would be to exercise caution. (And Paraffin is indeed a mix of (to us, unknown) aliphatic hydrocarbons, but then so, for example, is dyneema (UHMWPE)... I’ve never tried dissolving dyneema, but it’s not completely unfeasible that it would at least be weakened in the presence of hydrocarbons.)

There's a massive amount of materials science data though.

From what type of stainless steel to use for a particular liquid, to what plastic can be used outside without, degrading by UV light.

To be honest, I'd go so far as to say, almost exactly the opposite of your post, there are tables and data, which show just about any combination of modern material with another.

Alkanes are not known to interfere with nylon chemically.

It comes down to personal choice but there's blindly suggesting it'll be OK and then there's informed decision.

True. To

use the data, we ideally need to know what exactly is in the paraffin, if we are going to be pedantic, but broadly I agree with this.

There are a lot of materials out there. And a lot of proprietary information too. Certainly you could get a very good idea.

Correct. Alkanes are great for purification of polyamides and polyesters by precipitation for exactly this reason.

Exactly. My personal choice would be not to chance it. You’re absolutely correct, as above, that with enough research we could be pretty certain of the outcome before weighting the rope. My personal choice would be determined by where I personally place the threshold of certainty versus risk, as I’m sure would yours. We just clearly have different thresholds. I also would rather spend the cost of a rope than endure a weekend of poring over materials data, but different strokes and all that!  

Do you have evidence to back up your advise? Like many of the post, your reply appears to based on prejudice rather than science (not wanting to single you out).

Whether paraffine will damage a rope, or to what extent it could harm a rope, such as compromising dry treatment, will be evidenced somewhere. Unless you know the answer to the question and are able to evidence what you claim. yours, like many of the other posts, are at best pointless.

I think they were being comical, as in, "Yes, someone will know", rather than yes it will be damaged, or of course otherwise.

I might be wrong, though.

I think you're correct, we do have different thresholds. Though the research has already been posted on this thread, so it might be an exaggeration to state a whole weekend, a whole ten minutes, maybe. It also looks like we have different disposable income, and environmental positions too.

thanks for the discussion.

FYI to the "Don't want to think about it when i'm run out above gear" brigade, parachutes (nylon) are cleaned when needed using straight naphta (paraffin, etc). Think about it if you have done/ever do a skydive...

I’d be sh@!£ng myself about too many things to list.

Fears in your mind aren’t always rational...

Then don't think about them   Everything will be fine, is a good motto, just get on with stuff and enjoy yourself. ha ha ha

You're more than welcome to disagree with my position, but I don't think it is particularly reasonable to accuse me of having a large disposable income (I don't, and never have had. I'm one year out of education, and actually retired my gear when I was an undergrad), or of having a negative attitude towards sustainability. The PhD is technically in sustainable polymer chemistry, and my Masters is in sustainable chemistry. I also now work in a sustainability-related (non-chemistry) job. Sustainability is very important to me, and I'd rather not have a stranger on the internet tell me otherwise, just because I didn't want to tell someone else to go ahead and trust their life to a rope that has been apparently soaked in 'paraffin', which given the general nature of that term is a mixture that we really don't know the composition of. Besides, surely the purpose of a forum in this situation is to canvas a range of opinion to inform a decision, rather than to demand a unanimous verdict? Nonetheless, I hadn't opened the linked documents before, but I have now and I will concede that they certainly look like a good place to start gathering evidence if you're perhaps less risk averse than myself. 

Did you not notice the smiley?

But to answer your points, I think we know what's in paraffin, and I'm not sure the OP mentioned "soaked" only contamination.

Maybe I was just more thorough reading the previous posts before commenting, which is why I could give a more realistic time frame of researching the materials susceptibility to damage, since there are two separate documents linked.

Part of my contribution to the environment, is not chucking stuff away if it's still serviceable. We all do what we can in different ways.

I agree with you on the purpose of the forum, so the OP now has at least two options to choose from, with valid reasons for both points of view.

They've even got some quite good data on materials and the effect of contamination, to save them a weekend of research.

Cheers, again.

haha yeah fair enough. Still would have defended my position on sustainability though!

Edit: Just seen your edits -  FWIW, I don't think what you have posted is any less valid than what I have - I am sure I would be more cautious than most people, and that's absolutely fine. I think you're absolutely right about the throwing stuff away though - I certainly wouldn't feel good about binning what is essentially what, 10 kg of nylon fibre. (Ideally I'd try to reuse it in some way, but I appreciate that finding a contrived use for an old climbing rope in order to not bin it isn't really solving anything!)

They do make very good doormats, if you happen to have a need for doormats.