UKC

18 months ago I was looking for a small campervan to use all around the UK and Europe. Then the pandemic struck and I put my plans on hold.

Since then I have developed a deep hatred for campervans, strung out below Stanage every night, dozens in the field below Derwent Dam, and countless other places. They are not getting good press either, so I decided not to join the hordes.

With Europe hopefully opening up soon, I again dream of touring around for weeks on end, self sufficient and carefree, but I wonder if the UK 'bandwagon' is replicated in Europe? I know that pre-pandemic, they were more common than in the UK (especially the motorhomes), but there always seemed to be room for, and acceptance of them. Has there been a similar increase in usage in Europe? Is there a similar explosion of usage, and bad press over there? Or can I indulge my dreams with a clear concience?

Not getting into longer stay post Brexit and focus only on campervans.

They are actually reasonably common for especially Germans to have, but the rest of the continentals aren't that far behind. They just tend to travel elsewhere to see the sights, like Norway and Lofoten.

Campervans have caused problems in e.g. Bohuslan (both climbers and also reg. tourists), so majority of the communities in Bohuslan have banned all roadside and "wild" camping for campervans. They need to use dedicated campgrounds or suchs.

Similar bans are ever present in the alps, especially on the cols in CH, but also in AT, IT and FR.

So the days of stealth camping in campervans imho seem to be harder and harder. Still possible, but next to impossible at certain locales. Unfortunately those some locales are often the ones that have interesting climbing around.

Can it be still done, yes to an extent. But you might also start shellin' out the dough for camping ground fees and such.

Not sure how Covid has changed the situation, but my gut feeling is that not for the better....

Motorhomes and vans (ie small motorhomes) were everywhere in France last summer and thereafter. Even my family, whom I'd never heard talking about them and living in an area still relatively spared by mass tourism (key word here is relatively) were vigorously complaining that there were so many. "Room for and acceptance for them"? Less and less so.

Besides, is it a good idea, as the climate crisis unfolds and fuel will soon become problematic, to invest in something that consumes so much fuel and that inherently encourages to use it a lot so that you can justify your purchase?

Smaller modern campervans don't consume much more than a car. However, this problem is going to hit everyone regardless, cars included so your point still stands.

The UK actually lags a long way behind, 2017 figures Germany 486,900 France 457,000 Italy 220,000 and UK 205,000

And yes they are facing pushback everywhere, the newsfeed I have in Germany is full of articles about police clampdowns, bans, local protests and so on. The vanista press is full of speculative barrack-room lawyers picking the bones out of every new lockdown order, worse than the UKC exercising from home claptrap!

Clearly owning a €100;000 motorhome doesn't make people smart, nearby to me 40 owners got together over a public facebook group to meet up in a carpark having found a "loophole" in the law. Commenting the German equivalent of  "there's nothing the pigs can do" wasn't a real good idea! Illegal camping, breach of the car park regulations, drunk in charge of a motor vehicle, illegal discharge of waste, breach of the lockdown order and a number of vehicle offences (the police nicely set up a mobile test station at the exit).

There has been a massive increase in the UK since 2017 though. The outdoorsy social media image and emergence of bouldering centres in the past 5 years has really lit a fire under it. Would be interested to see the up-to-date figures. 

Yes... Bu the whole #vanlife thing has been rather popular around Yurp as well. So while the amount in UK might have risen... they have also rising in GER, IT, FR and so on.

My gut feeling is, that GER is still in the lead. But the amount stealth campers from e.g. PL and CZ might have also risen drastically.

Well 2019 sales were up in Germany (80, 863) slightly up in France (31,495) and down in the UK (33,608).

Is that sales of new vans or what? Most people seem to be buying old diesel work vans with >150K on the clock and converting them. I'd be surprised if many of these were registered campers. 

I've seen an increase in 'no overnight stay' signs here in the French Alps, including in our village. I've also seen a growing N° of articles in the local newspaper (or at least its website) so its percieved as a growing problem.

It just doesn't look like like much fun to me, there are too many people doing it at home and abroad to be the enjoyable and carefree experience that you talk of. I have a feeling the idea is better than the reality and push back against vanlife will inevitably increase. 

I think to have a quiet holiday experience of any type requires a bit more imagination these days, not just a van touring holiday.

I travel around Europe in my van staying under the radar most of the time, and rarely encountering any problems. Stay away from the honeypots.

Or you could join the other 250,000 on Bournemouth beach...

New sales, the OP was about campervans. The number of conversions over here is enormous as well but a lot will be registered as motorhomes as there are considerable advantages.

Believe me the f*cking things are everywhere and the boom shows no sign of slackening, VW have even brought out a new "mini-camper" based on the Caddy Maxi so you don't have to get a Reimo or whatever.

And I've looked at the registration statistics and from 2015 to 2020 the number registered increased from 390,000 to 590,000, in May this year 29% more new registrations as last year, that's 10,460 more of the things cluttering up the parking spots.

I (living in Germany) have a small van which is also my daily driver and often use it on campsites. They're often well equipped with good facilities, relatively cheap and offer a lot of benefits over 'wild' camping. 

• Access to toilet and showers. 
• A level place to park. 
• Space to cook, sit, chat, drink a beer and socialise without being anti-social. 
• Convenient and free waste disposal. 
• The chance to contribute to the local economy and please locals instead of pissing them off. 

We certainly also wild camp at times in appropriate locations but then the vibe and attitude is very different. Similar to actual wild camping, the respectful and sensible thing to do is turn up late, leave early and leave no trace. No big groups, no loud noise and nothing left behind. 

There are plenty of people in Germany who set up camping chairs, tables and stoves etc at the side of roads, in public carparks or on random private fields. They throw their food waste on the ground claiming it will be 'eaten' and shit in obvious places without burying or clearing it up. This includes people I know personally, and yes it's both illegal and taking the piss. Enforcement has increased significantly with Covid as Jim pointed out but there is no reason to assume that rules won't be more strongly enforced in future. 

I think that small campers are brilliant and the perfect way to explore Europe but like climbing, the correct ethics are essential in order to not look like a tool. 

If you have weeks on end then consider cycle touring?

I'll be selling the van I think... 

I can agree with that. In 2019 we sold 5 vans, 4 became campers. They were all between 150 and 198k. Mid 2020 I tried to pick up a cheap second hand van for our laborer to travel to site without van sharing and it was a real struggle to find one. The local dealers were selling them to people to convert as fast as they got them. 

I bought a VW T4 just over a year and a bit ago (around the time of Storm Dennis), it is a lovely little thing, use it as a daily run around and to stay in. More comfortable than a tent that is for sure! Just by driving it around it increase in value with everyone trying to get a van. We tend to stay in campsites if we are away, and the odd pub car park (with agreement from the pub), it is nice to be able to just decide in the morning or the day before to just go away for the night without a huge amount of planning required. I can see how it is becoming more of a of a problem and antisocial vanning on the rise.

Yes, easily. Just book into campsites.

One of the main problems is small vans with no toilets in them.

Not sure why, my van isn't big by any stretch and we have a chemical bog in the back. It doesn't take up much room at all. Only problem is at night with the bed out, but then it is at the foot of the bed with JUST enough space for the dog to get in and out of the create. Ideal for #1s but can do #2 in a real emergency, generally we use cafes (breakfast) or pubs (lunch/dinner) if we need a poo. 

(Van is work in progress still)

As I've said before, for some years I had a Wheelhome Daneste based on the Nissan Vanette . You can't really get much smaller than that and it had a basic  Porta Potti so there really is no excuse apart from squeamishness, in which case people should give up on the notion of van life  and  use hotels  or  holiday cottages.

I often sleep in the back of my car and have found the cheapest and easisest solution is a small platic bucket with a snap on lid, the sort paint and tile cement etc come in. I keep a roll of small bin liners and a toilet roll in it. When you need to 'go', line the bucket with a bin liner, squat over it and go, put the toilet roll in, wrap the bag up and snap the lid back on.

The only downside is you can't pee in it so you need to learn to pee before or after although I suppose you could employ a pee bottle simultaneouly.

Bloody Instagram hastags like #vanlife etc etc have made owning/ converting a van a lot more popular! I am guilty as charged however.

We've travelled by campervan through Europe for over 25 years. In the early days we felt welcome to wild camp in many places, where we often seemed to be regarded merely as eccentric novelties rather than any sort of nuisance.

The situation has steadily changed and we recognise that except in very wild empty places this is no longer a responsible option, so we tend to choose campsites or official aires more and more. 

A couple of tips for the OP - if you travel outside peak season, an ACSI Camping Card can make campsites much more affordable. Also look out for motorhome aires / stellplatz - cheaper than campsites but won't p1$$ off the locals. 

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You're going to have to up your game!

Nah, that's monstrous. Search for Xinge camper. Electric as well.

A friend of mine camped in a Bedford Rascal without that coach built body (and she has a toilet bucket in it.)

One berth only - I once spent a night in it (after the Coniston 14), in the semi-reclined passenger seat.

Obvious question. Does having a Porta Potti in a car make it stink of poo? Even a bit? And how many average sized dumps does a small one hold before you have to empty it anyway?

Outside pooing is such a pleasure that swapping it for a stinky car doesn't really appeal!

No thanks. Mine was scary enough in crosswinds , very short wheelbase  , best turning circle of anything I've ever driven,  but this made it very twitchy.. You needed to remember as well  that with the position of the seats and the engine at the side of you, that you were actually sitting in the crumple zone.

 Still regret selling it massively. I had a problem with the heater and  finding spares was so difficult that I started to worry about what if the clutch goes etc. So I sold it for £200 less than I'd bought it for three years previously. 

As someone else said, the Porta Potti is usually for pissing in but in an emergency you can take a shit. I imagine most people would do as I did and empty it at the first possible opportunity . Most of my vanning was on sites anyway. But if you were not on a site you wouldn't want to have it swilling around for too long and i doubt that many people pile it up to the top.

OK, so pretty useless for me then. 

No.  That is not is not true about the toilet's uselessness.  After many years traveling and living up to a month or so at a time in a small hatchback, 3 years ago we eventually bought a small van -- _specifically_ so that we could have a toilet on board.  The last 10 years in Scotland have changed so that it has now become pretty tough without one.  We were thinking of carrying a toilet with us in the car and just using it outside -- but for us the van has other advantages too.

I built the van layout based on the toilet (under trapdoor in bed -- ready to use at all times).  And it has been brilliant!  We got a large version so could use it up to a week for two people before emptying.

When the toilet is not in use, there are no smells!  When you open both the lid and the waste shutter for use, there is a little bit of a sweet chemical smell.  Not bad at all.  Not crappy smells like we initially worried about.  And certainly not anywhere near as bad as chemicals some people like to splash all over their bodies that you can small as you pass them on the street.

After say 4-5 days the open toilet starts to smell a bit more organic.  But again -- only when it is fully open and in use.  Closed: nothing.  And if you empty and refresh the chemicals before about 4 days there would be no probs.

We're very impressed.  Outdoor life is soooo much better.  Just a bugger the entire world seems to want to live in a van now.

Thanks. Sounds more promising. I am thinking of getting a small van when my current car dies.

That is why it took us so long to swap the car for a van.  We knew we needed a van 4 years earlier, but our great wee car just kept going and going after 190k mls, and 8 long trips to Europe... Just couldn't bare to give up on it until it really did die.  Good luck with yours.

I know what you mean. I'm now almost looking forward to my car dying so that I don't have to spend 20 minutes at midnight after a long drive cramming everything in the front so that I can just about sleep diagonally in the back and then reverse the process a few hours later!

I would still recommend emptying it as frequently as possible. Accidents can happen.The lid seal does work as a stink trap when the Porta Potti is upright but.......

Why wouldn't you just use a pee bottle then? Much easier to empty as well and use the paint bucket I described above for dumps, takes up way less space leaving more room for kit. A porta potti in small van seems like an unjustifiable waste of space.

Van camping has been massive in Europe for a long time, in Catalunya had to be regulated in places like Sadernes, Margalef and Siurana. It's the cheapest way to holiday. The UK lacks behind because people have more disposable income. The pandemic has change that and now there's upheaval because UK is not prepared for it. Campervans are here to stay and it will carry on growing, I certainly will carry on using mine despite what the "public" might say. Councils have to find solutions like they have done in many towns in Spain. Campers are happy to pay a fiver for a night, why don't make use of fields for overnight stay. It's only because people want it to be a problem, the solutions are possible.

However good your paint bucke is, on those rare occasions when you have to drop a turd in the small confines of your van, a Porta Potti will be better in terms of comfort and overall useability. but that's just me . The porta potti I had was presumably the most basic  and its dimensions weren't much more than your paint bucket. As a one man camper I never felt constrained about room for "kit". 

Anyway, as I said, it's down to personal choice: I was brought up in a household where the earth closet was our waste disposal  system and i once spent a fortnight on the council "marmalade wagon" emptying the same things so maybe your painter's bucket brings back some fairly unwelcome memories and the Porta Potti is a sophisticated item in comparison.

It seems that many are not, at least here in the French Alps

I'm beginning to think that those wag bags (or whatever they are called) or equivalent which are common in the US arethe answer for roadside dossing where a suitable dumping ground is not available.

I am based the east side of the Ecrins near Briancon, its getting a mixed response here, there are hundred and hundreds of van's in summer, with popular spots have up 20/30 vans a night. and some of the parking for crags are full every night with vans, Which as you can imagine is starting to causing a few issues, mainly as most don't seam to have toilets, but also there is issues around money as a lot of people make there money here from tourists. 

There are a few free allocated park up spots but no one seams to one to use them as they are in the towns, most seam to want to be in the wilds (even though they are sharing space there as well).

I am starting to see more no overnight signs and hear more people asking for it to be policed more, and I know of a few track that have no been blocked of to stop vans.

I would say at the moment its about 50/50 split locally on happy for them to be here/don't mind and not keen/ hate them. At the moment a van users probably wouldn't feel put out here as its not really become an open issue yet, most of it is local grumbling to the majors to stop it. But see it in future years moving more to not wanting them, just because of the numbers if it keeps growing.

I think its a shame and don't really have an answer but something probably needs to change in numbers or some way of finding facility etc.

As to buying a van now, I think there are lots of places you can still go, and will be fine especially for the next few year. just make sure you have a toilet and if you can afford it buy some stuff local.

Doesn’t bother me in the slightest compared to the thousands of primark dipped new outdoors kind, who are only there because the cocktail bars and shopping mall are closed. Van people tend to me much more respectful and tidy. I’d rather find a turd 20ft into bushes than the remnants of an Asda BBQ party immediately at the entrance to the lake or left at the top of a crag. 
 

I did a month in Spain and Portugal over Xmas in my van and the only place I saw a concentration of other vans was El Chorro, it was a lovely scene and I get the impression the local bars and resteraunts really appreciated the custom. Maybe locals want their peace and quiet but after a year being closed I think a lot of these sensitive economies want as many visitors as they can get. 

Cant be that much to set up composting toilets in hotspots. Worth spendings taxpayers money on, they spend it on much worse I’m sure. 

That’s what we use for our micro camper. They’re excellent, though not cheap. I wish they were more widely available. 

I've never understood why Primark arouses so much snobbery in people. 

This is the way I am going, Bikes and Trains. I was very keen on buying a camper van, and I do have a work van I do sleep in occasionally and have a port potty.

The reason I travel is to see new places and meet new and different people and climbing is a part of this, however going to places to gather with people like me, as happens at climbing venues where vans congregate will only be a small part of it. My view is that by cycle touring I will be seen as more like the people in communities I pass through, as opposed to a rich outsider, a customer. I suspect the further I get from Western Europe this will be more the case.

I do think that camper vans are a classic example of a Tragedy of the Commons and also will soon reach a tipping point or points, with too many people doing it and government climate strategies pushing Oil driven commercial vehicles off the road.

but it’s not just ONE turd 20 foot into the bushes is it? In too many locations it’s masses and often closer to or even on the path. I’m not anti van, far from it. We currently have a T5 with built in WC and currently working on converting a Ducato which will replace it. There’s no excuse for irresponsible van use. Too many just don’t want the hassle of shitting in their van . This was made clear by the infamous UKC article on a large van conversion but without a bog. The economic argument for van users supporting local economies doesn’t stand up. Most van users will do anything to avoid spending locally. This applies equally to very expensive professionally build motor homes on the popular Scottish routes stocking up at big supermarkets rather than use local shops and restaurants 

Probably because they bulk buy the cheapest next trend they can find, hoping their customers will replace it 6 months later.

I probably haven't noticed that since my purchases there are usually t shirts, sweat shirts, jogger bottoms and the like where the word trend doesn't apply. 

And because their production practises in China are appalling. My sister worked in China overseeing fashion production standards and some factories working for Primark had just one bucket full of water as fire prevention and open latrines for toilets, not to mention the worst sweatshop conditions. I am very happy to be a snob to appalling brands like that. Avoid the stuff! If you want cheap t-shirts, buy from Zara, they made in Portugal or Mexico with way better conditions, but yes they a tenner rather than a £1.50.

Next time you see Primark t shirts at £1.50 let me know.

In Spain, where I live, the whole camper van thing has exploded, and thanks to websites to which people contribute 'ideal' wild camping spots (like this one: https://www.furgovw.org/mapa_furgoperfecto/) it is now very difficult to find a wild camping spot which is neither a) now dotted with "no overnight parking signs, b) a shithole (sometimes literally), c) full of other vans, or d) likely to get raided by the authorities in the middle of the night.

This last point is particularly relevant because while "sleeping in your vehicle" is legal over here, "camping" is not permitted. This means that if you park a van and can't see a "no overnight parking sign", keep everything inside, don't raise a roof, and draw all the blinds, you're okay. But the second you leave a chair outside, or raise a roof, you run a risk of getting moved - the local police will frequently patrol 'known' spots, especially over the summer, and move on and fine anybody who they consider is camping. As a result, it's definitely beneficial to have a larger van, where you can chuck everything inside at night. 

When we got our van (a small T4) we were full of dreams of parking overnight at beautiful beaches, mountain passes, spectacular views etc. The reality is that 99% of the time we stay in a campsite, to avoid the hassle. This is still great, there are some beautiful campsites around! But it is more expensive, and it's certainly not the self-sufficient and carefree experience that you are looking for.

This conveniently overlooks the fact of the initial investment - even if you do it on a mega shoestring you're still stumping up several significant holidays worth of money just to get the van. Then when you've got it, you feel obliged to use it for every holiday to get your money's worth even if normally you might want a different type of holiday.

We've often toyed with getting a camper as we live somewhere we could use it a lot but for the reasons above I haven't bothered. This was reinforced a couple of years back when we hired a camper and drove around Scotland including Mull and Skye (slightly out of season in autumn). I felt so self conscious camping on public land, coupled with wanting facilites for chucking the waste water etc that often we just used campsites. Also it feels a bit wrong pretty much taking your house with you to go camping - I'd rather me a bit more minimal when out in nature.

We said to ourselves that next time we'd just rent a car and stay in AirBnBs in different places and it would likely not be that much more expensive.

I don't think anyone wants to stop you, but bear in mind that the "public" are often people who live where you want to holiday. I live in the Alps and until recently was on the western side of the Ecrins in a small valley of SSSI which didn't really get plagues of camper vans (we had a small crag plus VF but nothing you would go out of your way for considering Ceuse was just another 45 minute drive) but would still get many overnight wild campers in summer and I've lost count of the amount of times I've walked my dogs and tried to wrestle them away from a human shit at the side of the path.

I'm sure you're a respectful and considerate camper so definitely not tarring you with the same brush.

Vans are great for Europe. Can sleep in the Aires on french motorways and in France and Germany the campsites are cheap.

e.g. We stayed near saussois, nice site, river swimming, good facilities £8/night for both of us, similar in frankenjura.

Even cortina is only the same price as portland ffs.

Sees bizarre to me, folks with new californias, don't want to pay for camping. 

A van is really just a  big car you can sleep in. The extra cost need not be great at all. What does seem extravagant is spending large amonts of time and/or money on a conversion which will be scrapped with the van. I'm thinking of getting a small van as my next car. The "conversion" will consist of chucking an old mattress and possibly a cobbled together sleeping platform in the back. 

What seems bizarre to me is investing a lot in a van and then wanting to pay for camping too. Kind of misses half the point.

I've had my van since 2016 and has been the best investment. I did a simple self build T5 conversion (dvla approved) which I have upgraded over the 5 years I have owned it but still simple. In Scotland its made climbing trips and over nighters easy and comfortable allowing for proper flexibility and cutting down on stupidly early starts especially for winter climbing. I've done several trips down into Europe staying in or passing through France, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Germany. I also lived in my van for 6 months. I was based in Chamonix but also traveled around while I was down there. 

With a little consideration to where you're parking there is plenty opportunity to 'wild' camp and avoid sites. Around any of the main climbing areas I have found it easy to stay (I was last down to Font and Riglos in 2018). That said things could change as if you ever walk into the bushes from car parking areas in climbing hot spots watch where you are stepping, proper mine fields. I always have a spade in the van, try to stay away from busy spots and leave no trace.

Get a van, for climbing (and other trips) they're brilliant.

I always wanted a camper van.  I work in the commercial motor trade, have loved camping since i was a kid and now that my daughter climbs, including Europe i thought it would be good to own a Transporter size camper van.

I bought mine about 4yrs ago.  Spent a few months converting it and have done about 35,000mls in it, including 2 x trips to Austria.  We paddle board as well so its the perfect motor for us.

Sadly, the experience got worse and worse for me.  A lot of the threads i read here about parking and overcrowding and just general dont give a tossery made me feel guilty by association.  I read things about how campervans are treating the NC500 and all the other tight arse, dont care who it effects stories and i decided after managing to finally have my dream motor, i wanted rid.  It sold for double the amount i paid for it (Including the conversion) a few weeks ago.  I was nearly in tears.

No toilet as part of the conversion you planned?

There is a lot of negativity around vans recently, I’m sure a lot of it is very valid. But being a regular “van lifer” for around 5 months a year, I thought I would share what I think are some positives:

*being in the van is far better for the environment compared to living at home and taking the odd flight for a holiday or regular weekend warrior. We tend to stay at a destination for a long period of time and then move onto somewhere else.

*we produce all our own solar energy, and use much less water than we would at home.

*we have a toilet which has been a great addition to the van, and I would urge all van users to do the same. All it takes is for one person to do the wrong thing for it to give all van users a bad rep, and rather unfairly as most I think are very aware of the issues.

*support the local economy. We spent our winter in leonidio and the locals were very happy for us to be around spending money in the bakeries and fruit and veg shops every day. 

A veritable love shack! Get yourself a stick to beat ‘em off with.

The idea is that it acts as a filter without the need for a stick.