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NEWS: IFSC Boulder World Cup Salt Lake City 2021 (Rnd 2): Report

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 UKC News 24 May 2021

The second IFSC World Cup of 2021 took place in the new location of Salt Lake City, USA, last weekend. Vail is the usual high-altitude stop in the North American tour, but this year we're spoiled with a double helping of SLC, one weekend after another. 

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 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to UKC News:

Did anyone watch the womens finals?  I would just like to ask a question about Brooke Raboutou and her technique using the bolt holes & T Nuts for her feet.

I thought it was just a one off but no, she uses it as a regular technique if she is stretched out (She isnt the tallest).  I am not having a go at her but i took my young daughter to a wall last night and mentioned it to her to see if she could replicate it.  On the first climb she was able to use the t nut as a foothold.  Not as effectively as Brooke, but with a bit of practice and the 'right' pair of shoes it would definitely be a competition advantage.

So fair game or open to abuse?

1
 galpinos 25 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

Fair game. If they don't want them used, I'm sure they could plug them.

 john arran 25 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

In my home wall, even on my usual warm-up circuit I routinely use a bolt-hole foothold, as it just makes the move much more secure. Admittedly it seems fairly rare to find moves where it makes much of a difference, but they do exist and it really can help a lot in the right circumstance.

As to the 'legality' of it in competition I'n not sure, as I'm not current with the regulations, but I thought the use of bolt-holes on the main surface for progression had been banned, so unless the rules specifically limit this to hands, then presumably a climber could be penalised for using them for feet.

 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

This is what i wasnt sure about.  I have seen many competitor use bolt holes in the past with fingers and no issues with the judge.  My daughter is under the instruction if i see her do it with her fingers, i will pull her down from the climb myself, competing or not.  But feet/shoes......never seen it before and if you watch her, its definitely something she has practiced and something you could easily take advantage of, even moreso with some altered shoes.

4
 Offwidth 25 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

It was discussed in the commentary. It's within the rules and normal.

The finals were well worth watching but quite a few of the best ranked climbers were missing.

For some side fun between problems you can count how many times our very own Graeme is seen running.

Post edited at 10:54
 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

Cool, thanks.  Another technique to practice.

 john arran 25 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> It was discussed in the commentary. It's within the rules and normal.

I was curious about this so just looked through the official rules on the IFSC website. The only reference I could find was in the Glossary:

"Artificial Aid means Controlling or Using any of the following:

a) any “T-Nut” placements provided for the fixing of artificial holds; ..."

This seems pretty clear to me that deliberately using t-nut holes for either hands or feet isn't permitted, so I'm curious as to what the commentator knew that I may have missed.

Edit: unless the bolt-hole itself was in a volume, in which case, as I understand it, the whole volume may be used as it isn't classed as part of the wall itself. 

Post edited at 11:45
 Offwidth 25 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

Curious.

To be clear it was just the commentators talking and only about use of feet (and it was one of the women on the wall). Maybe if someone is due to watch it they can post the time it happened and what was said.

youtube.com/watch?v=AXC52wxDCGg&

Post edited at 11:49
 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

Nope it was most certainly within the wall surface.  She dug her point of the shoe into the tnut and pushed through it

1
 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

54.12/13  She even looks at it and digs in

39.20-26  She uses it to stabilize herself as she pivots direction from left to right

She digs her toe in.  I saw other examples but i just clicked your link, took pot luck and there it was.  

Post edited at 12:22
 john arran 25 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

Where's Graeme Alderson when you need him?

 galpinos 25 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> Where's Graeme Alderson when you need him?

In SLC!

 john arran 25 May 2021
In reply to galpinos:

That's no excuse!

 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

I have just had a look on the IFSC rules.  They state

Artificial Aid means Controlling or Using any of the following: a) any “T-Nut” placements provided for the fixing of artificial holds

8.17 A competitor’s attempt will be: A) judged “Unsuccessful” if:  4) the competitor has made use of any Artificial Aid,

 AdamBrown 25 May 2021
In reply to UKC News:

Back around 

 birddog 25 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

Will be interesting to see next weekend if everyone is doing it next weekend as it is on the same wall.

Then we can all join in on Offwidth's drinking game (well, it'll be a drinking game for me) of watching Graeme run like the wind through a round!

 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to UKC News:

There must be something in the rules about it.  I remember Ondra getting DQ because his flagging foot skimmed a bolthanger not so long ago.  I just cant find any reference specific to feet.

 mol 25 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

I watched the ladies finals and was also curious about using the bolt holes (that aren't on volumes). I don't think it specifies using them for hands or feet in the rules, I thought they were just listed as 'artificial aid' and therefore couldn't be used (with hands or feet). I read the rules a couple of years ago, so they could have changed...

 jimtitt 25 May 2021
In reply to UKC News:

There used to be a route at my local wall which was 30m of just the holes from the bolt inserts (it's concrete). Kinda hard, I could do two moves!

In reply to Qwerty2019:

I also wondered about this. It is legit (and incredibly hard to judge if people are just smearing and their foot lands in a bolthole), but it does make life a bit harder for setters if problems can be 'broken'. It's just another trick that you might as well exploit if you can, like digging your long nails behind the edges of holds/volumes (a personal favourite!). 

La Sportiva solutions are the best shoes for bolthole-toeing and I've taken to trying it at the wall recently, inspired by Brooke. Alex Johnson mentioned in the US Nationals commentary that Brooke is especially adept at it!

1
 abarro81 25 May 2021
In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Do you know how it's legit given the quoted rule? Seems at-odds...

 Qwerty2019 25 May 2021
In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Its more than a trick.  It is a technique that can be trained and improved with equipment.   As i said, in 5 mins my daughter got proficient enough on a slab climb to be able to intentionally use it.  She was wearing theory but im pretty sure you are right about the solutions   But i am pretty sure a shoe could also be modified to improve this even more........

Post edited at 17:26
 john arran 25 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

> But i am pretty sure a shoe could also be modified to improve this even more........

I think when people start turning up in monopoint crampons, they'll start enforcing the rule!

In reply to abarro81:

I'll wait for Graeme to come along, but I assume it's just not easily enforceable when you have people smearing randomly on the walls a lot of the time, whereas fingers in boltholes are more obvious and potentially more helpful, depending on finger size. 

It certainly feels a bit wrong, and even on volumes where it's accepted it feels a bit cheaty. These days there aren't many volumes used in comps with boltholes, though.

 Marek 25 May 2021
In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

> It certainly feels a bit wrong, and even on volumes where it's accepted it feels a bit cheaty. These days there aren't many volumes used in comps with boltholes, though.

I've never used them for feet, but find them really useful as monos for balancy/slabby/rockover/udge moves - I have small fingers. Having said that, I've always admitted that I 'cheated' - for what it's worth (I don't do competitions) - because that's what it felt like.

 JLS 25 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> I think when people start turning up in monopoint crampons, they'll start enforcing the rule!

I wonder if that will be AFTER the new 5.10 “MonoPrecision” has been exploited to win gold at the Olympics...

 Ian W 25 May 2021
In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

> I'll wait for Graeme to come along, but I assume it's just not easily enforceable when you have people smearing randomly on the walls a lot of the time, whereas fingers in boltholes are more obvious and potentially more helpful, depending on finger size. 

> It certainly feels a bit wrong, and even on volumes where it's accepted it feels a bit cheaty. These days there aren't many volumes used in comps with boltholes, though.


i had a chat with Qwerty about this, and note the IFSC rules have changed in the last couple of years. It used to be ganz verboten for hands - it wouldnt be a good thing to fall off with a finger in a bolt hole - but was ok for feet. now its a bit ambiguous imho as holds were either "controlled" or "used" to ascertain the competitors score. Control hold 27 = score of 27, use it = score of 27+, so it seems to depend on the definition of "use" or "make use of". Note also a bolthole will never be a scoring hold.

 Offwidth 26 May 2021
In reply to birddog:

It better be good quality stuff if it's a Graeme linked drinking game

 Phil79 26 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

> My daughter is under the instruction if i see her do it with her fingers, i will pull her down from the climb myself, competing or not.  

A little harsh!

I always think any part of a hold on an indoor climb is in, bolt holes included, and I use them fairly frequently. But then again I'm not competing, so no idea what rules are around it in comps.

If route setters or climbing walls don't want them used then there is the option to use screw ons in most cases, or plug the holes.

1
 Michael Hood 26 May 2021
In reply to john arran:

> a) any “T-Nut” placements provided for the fixing of artificial holds; ..."

> This seems pretty clear to me that deliberately using t-nut holes for either hands or feet isn't permitted, so I'm curious as to what the commentator knew that I may have missed.

I suspect there is a difference between a "T-Nut" placement" and a "T-Nut hole"; i.e. is there a t-nut there or is it a hole that can take a t-nut?

So being precise with what you've copied from the glossary I would interpret the situation as ok to use a bare hole but not ok to use a t-nut that is actually in a hole. I looked at the sections that Qwerty highlighted and it looked like Brooke was using bare holes - but she was definitely looking and placing her feet to use them - every little helps I suppose but I can't imagine them helping me much 😁

2
 Michael Hood 26 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

> There must be something in the rules about it.  I remember Ondra getting DQ because his flagging foot skimmed a bolthanger not so long ago.  I just cant find any reference specific to feet.

If this was the world champs with the Tokyo qualification then IIRC he wasn't DQ, just that his lead "stopped" at the point where his foot skimmed the bolthanger. Which meant that he was placed lower down the order and missed the Olympic qualification.

I suspect route setters have become more careful about not leaving unused bolthangers in place since this incident.

 Qwerty2019 26 May 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

Are you seriously trying to make a case for whether a hole has a tnut installed or not as to it being legal?

The Ondra reference was more to show that they do have specific rules for feet rather than just generic 'dont touch'.

I dont care either way but i put it to my daughter and she said it was cheating which seems reasonable to me.  If its not then i want to know in case it crops up in comps in the future.

 Michael Hood 26 May 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

> Are you seriously trying to make a case for whether a hole has a tnut installed or not as to it being legal?

I'm not making a case for it being sensible but the evidence presented so far does lead to that being a possible conclusion:

  • Brooke wasn't being furtive or discreet about her toe placements (as you saw), it was obvious and overt.
  • Yet it wasn't picked up by the judges or appealed by other contestants
  • So I presume it's ok to do what she did
  • And yet that glossary specifically mentions T-nuts

I'd have to go down t'wall to check, but presumably when installed, a T-nut isn't entirely flush with the face. I would assume there's a tiny lip and it may be that the "don't touch the T-nuts" is to stop use of that tiny lip.

Another thought is, are the rules the same for lead and bouldering comps with respect to this kind of stuff (i.e. does that glossary apply to bouldering as well as lead)

Maybe we just need to wait for Graeme to tell all.

Kudos to your daughter being good enough to even be able to exploit such things (regardless of whether she actually does or not).

 Ian W 26 May 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> I suspect there is a difference between a "T-Nut" placement" and a "T-Nut hole"; i.e. is there a t-nut there or is it a hole that can take a t-nut?

> So being precise with what you've copied from the glossary I would interpret the situation as ok to use a bare hole but not ok to use a t-nut that is actually in a hole. I looked at the sections that Qwerty highlighted and it looked like Brooke was using bare holes - but she was definitely looking and placing her feet to use them - every little helps I suppose but I can't imagine them helping me much 😁


All holes are bare from the front, and all holes on a wall will have a t nut in the back of it. I'm with you on the benefits, but I have it on good authority from those smaller, lighter and more skilled than me that it can make a difference.........

 Arms Cliff 26 May 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

>

> I'd have to go down t'wall to check, but presumably when installed, a T-nut isn't entirely flush with the face. I would assume there's a tiny lip and it may be that the "don't touch the T-nuts" is to stop use of that tiny lip.

T nuts are recessed. If there was a little metal lip sticking out people could lacerate themselves sliding off slabs. 
There’s going to be no advantage to a hole with a t nut in. 

 Michael Hood 27 May 2021
In reply to Arms Cliff & Ian W:

Hmm, in that case my "possible" surmise looks to be wrong.

Which means we are still left with this contradiction between what the glossary says and how Brooke (and presumably others) was climbing.

Back to awaiting Graeme methinks.

In reply to Michael Hood & others:

Well we had the Technical meeting for the 2nd BWC in SLC a couple of hours ago and I was able to confirm that it was never intended to change the rule to eliminate the use of T-nuts holes for feet.

So they are allowed and it is public knowledge hence my breaking radio silence.

Oh and Adam Ondra did not brush the bolt in Hachioji, he used it, his sinews tensed. It might have been a marginal gain but ask David Brailsford about marginal gains

In reply to Phil79:

> A little harsh!

> I always think any part of a hold on an indoor climb is in, bolt holes included, and I use them fairly frequently. But then again I'm not competing, so no idea what rules are around it in comps.

It's very reasonable to have an absolute no fingers in bolt holes rule for kids.   It is scary when kids put small fingers in bolt holes especially in a situation where there's a good chance of falling.

 john arran 28 May 2021
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Thank you Graeme. The wording of the rules could probably be a lot clearer, to make it less open to challenge, but if the intention has been clarified officially, and minuted, that should probably be enough.

Post edited at 06:51
 Michael Hood 28 May 2021
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Thanks for taking the time responding to this thread when I suspect you might be slightly busy.

 Qwerty2019 28 May 2021
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Thanks for the answer Graeme.  

 Qwerty2019 28 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Thank you Tom.  I didnt reply to it but it is something i wont even consider.  If someone needs to 'use' a bolt hold with their finger they are struggling with a climb and so a slip is probably highly possible.  I shudder every time i see it happen


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