UKC

As part of their Respect the Wild campaign, the BMC have released a new video about responsible Van Life with pro climber Robbie Phillips.

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Look at that horrible massive van parked up in a beautiful scenic location! Sure, you wake up to a lovely view but you ruin everyone elses. If you were wild camping, you'd pitch up well out of the way and out of sight. You'd likely be scorned if you pitched your tent somewhere so visible yet parking white-goods on wheels slap bang in the middle of the wilderness is acceptable? You can't stash that thing under a boulder while you're out climbing/walking. 

IMO overnighting in a vehicle for recreation should only be permitted in designated carparks and campsites.   

What about those of us who are struggling financially? I can't afford to pay £30 per night, which is a fairly standard amount for a van on a site these days. That's £210 for just a week away. There's absolutely no way I can afford that. But I would still like to have a holiday.

So in your mind it would be OK to park by the crag whilst climbing, spoiling the view with your vehicle while people are there, but not OK to park there after most of the people have gone home, because the view is spoiled?

Are you sure it's spoiling the view that's your problem?

Get a tent. Not being able to afford anything other than parking your campervan in a beauty spot is one of the weakest arguments I may have ever seen. 

I take It you’ve never parked at Stanage?

So Robbie gets to park up at the crag because he's a professional climber, but the rest of us don't because we're not quite good enough?

If you're referring to "for recreation", I included that as there are obviously people who have fallen on hard times and have nowhere else to go and also the traveller community who also overnight in vans/caravans. I wasn't splitting 'amateur' and 'professional' climbers.   

Ah, OK. So because I have Irish traveller blood in me I'm allowed to park at the crag, but assuming Robbie hasn't, he can't?

Why should my ethnicity provide me with extra rights, shouldn't everyone get those rights?

get a bicycle and a tent.

get a normal car that has twice the fuel economy and spend the savings on a staying in a B&B

So you think your hobby should allow you the same protection and rights as a protected ethnic group? #vanentitlement 

No, I think everyone should have the right to a travelling lifestyle.

That's fine but if it isn't controlled (i.e. in designated carparks) then it isn't sustainable and unfairly impacts on everyone else's experience of the outdoors. 

Sell the van, buy a tent.. take the train to Edale? 

But since 99% of us would have used a car to get there, we'd be choosing from the same parking spots anyway.

Vans aren't exactly known for their off-roading ability so I think your definition of "slap-bang in the middle of the wilderness" is a bit questionable. They'll always be parked by a road or track.

and spend the change on a pitchfork...

Is it? That doesn't stop it from being true though. It still costs money to pitch a tent on a campsite, and I have very little money. I've just had a look at Roseview Campsite just south of Oban (because that was the last site I stayed on) and it's £22 per night for a tent. That's £682 for a month. Last August I spent a month on the Scottish West coast, Mull, and Outer Hebrides and the entire trip including diesel, ferries, food, booze, absolutely everything, cost me and my partner £500 each. I earn £1000 per month and I have mortgage and bills to pay from that. I have to make an effort to save for my holidays. 

We made an effort to stay away from big supermarkets, instead spending our money with local businesses, we made no noise, left no mess, picked up lots of pre-existing litter, never stayed within view of local residences. The places we stayed were cleaner and better off financially after we left. We will be going back this Summer and we may well have a night here and there in some of your precious beauty spots. 

The same applies. B&B are bloody expensive.

I am 50 years old and I have never owned a car. I have had my van for two years and it is the only vehicle I have ever owned. I only ever use it for holidays, roughly 2000-3000 miles per year. I have owned a bicycle continuously since I was 4. I have cycled to and from work for my entire working life. I spent 25 years hitching around Britain and Europe.

I'm sorry, but I'm going on holiday in my van and I'm going to stay in places that are free, as that's all I can afford. Getting a more efficient vehicle and staying in B&B is ridiculous. There's no way that's going to work out cheaper.

You're not comparing like-for-like. Wild camping in a tent costs nothing and you'll save a fortune on MPG. Staying in a tent at a campsite is cheaper than staying in a van and staying in a tent in the wild is cheaper than staying in a van in the wild. When you're talking about holidays, diesel, ferries, food, booze, etc. you can't really also try and play the financially down-trodden card. 

I've got three tents actually. One of which is a Wild Country Quasar copy that I made myself for £50 as I couldn't afford £450 for a real one. (Yes that's very cheap, but I have a contact in the textile business and a friend who used to be able to get genuine Wild Country poles really cheap). And I can pedal to Edale from my house. 

Gordon Bennett! I have to save up for my holidays, putting aside a little bit each month. What I spend it on when I get there is none of your business. I want to enjoy the holiday, that's why I saved up for so long. I'm not going to reply to your nonsense again.

I'm not suggesting it's cheaper than sleeping in a vehicle but hostels are so under used and under rated these days. It's like it's not cool, or seen as only for students, hippies or those with beards. A bed, kitchen, showers, drying room, washing machine, a lounge etc.   All for a modest price. 

I hate to agree but I think the time has come, in this overcrowded island, to stop it. Scotland in particular is rammed with campervans these days, unsustainably so and it's not a case of setting off into the outback /wilderness it's a case of setting off into a theme park. 

The problem is many vans aren't motorhomes, or campervans, they are massive mobile hotels. Designed to sit just below driving licence limits so anyone can still drive them, even if their manoeuvring skills are at Ford fiesta level. Routes like the 500 should have weight and length limits for non delivery vehicles, there is a big difference between your classic camper and a large hymer. 

Maybe, but the lack of privacy and so on really isn't for everybody. Functional in some circumstances, but generally a pretty rubbish experience.

The real problem in Scotland is not the motorhomes which are really "just" visually intrusive. Nor is it climbers dossing roadside to get an early start. It is the "dirty campers" who set up camp for a weekend and trash the place. They simply don't care and the only thing which will stop them is legislation and strict enforcement. If we could get to an "arrive late/leave early" culture, the real problems would go away.

A tent! And a bicycle! Bloody luxury.

Surely he should be schlepping barefoot to the crag wearing nothing but rags, sleeping under a hedge and foraging for food.

Even camping prices are getting silly tbh.

like climbers did in the 80's!

Where is every pooing? I just cycled through Ogwen and its Wall to wall campers every where. I guess many have their own loos but most won't. 

Ironically the campsites are pretty much empty. If you are a young climber with a van and no money fair enough I get it- I was one myself, arrive late, leave early etc.

But most of these people are middle class driving 40 grand monsters but who are too tight to pay what it costs in a camp site.  

I've just moved back to North wales from the North of Scotland (just off the NC 500 where it was bad) but it is just mental here. The other day I was visiting the in laws and a group turned up in the village for the weekend in their camper and stayed in the green as if it were a campsite. Unsurprisingly there was one just half a mile away that's 15 quid a night, which given the diesel cost of a big camper is peanuts. 

We should really look at the icelandic model, that would allow the big campers to use a site whilst climbing bums can sneakily park up else where.  Its the audacity and lack of subtlety that annoys me. The other day I was cycling in Llandudno and people had deck chairs outside their camper on the cycle path without a care in the world. 

The video posted offers some good advice but it is preaching to the converted. Most people either think they are "van life" Instagramers or yobs who couldn't care less. 

Having read this I realise I sound horrible. I'm all for being an outdoor bum, just not at the cost of fragile eco systems. If you can afford 40 grand for a camper you can pay for a camp site. 

You should be able to buy an RPG with the change from a van

I live in a coastal communtiy and yup, this! I've plenty of empathy for someone dossing down in a partially converted transit.

However, a 40k camper there all weekend with awning, all the kit and a few grand on bikes, SUPs etc takes the piss a bit

This comes up time and time again, along with the argument of avoiding campsite fees.

I am a van owner and I enjoy it but I do not kid myself that this isn't a luxury, an indulgence.

Just looking at the base cost of a converted van in reasonable condition ~£15k (yes it can be done cheaper and way more expensive). That money will buy you every Saturday night in a £100 per night Hotel for the next 3 years. This is before you consider the additional costs of fuel consumption, repairs and maintenance, buying a run around because it is too difficult to commute in a xlwb sprinter or to keep the van nice for trips.

This simple maths never goes down well, you know where the thumbs down button is. Fashion costs money, campervan are more coco chanel than they are dirt bag despite their image. 

As I approach retirement, I am considering a larger, posher van but I am swinging towards not adopting the liability and instead spending the, say, £40k saved on flights, car hire and accomodation. It will buy a lot of that. 

that's why I got rid of mine (also the fact that it was always breaking down) . The economics don't make sense unless you live in it full time. 

A hedge? I used to sleep in a lake.

Many hostels have double, single and family rooms. They aren't all like some 1970s vision of large same sex dormitories, which do still exist and are even cheaper per night. 

Rubbish experience? In what respect, you get a kitchen, a fridge, a shower that actually works, free parking...

My van was £8000. I only use it for holidays, 2000 - 3000 miles per year. I don't need a little runaround car as I have a bicycle. I have never actually owned a car in all my 50 years. 

My £8000 divided by your £100 hotel = 80 nights. In the last two years, plus the two years before that when my girlfriend had a van, we spent 273 van nights away. I am hoping that my van will last us at least another ten years, It's in good condition and has only just over 100,000 miles. So 273/4=68 nights a year. Ten more years in my van plus the two I've already owned it x 68 =816 nights. Which comes to just under £10 per night (8000/816). For two of us that's a fiver each. Yes there will be fuel / maintainance etc as you say, but you've got that anyway wherever you stay, even if you drive to a campsite with a tent. Staying in a van can be very cheap.

It clearly works for you and I am happy for you. I suspect you are atypical though. Carry on enjoying it, I do but I don't kid myself about it. 

This - absolutely nailed it. 

Will do, you too.

Si.

The YHA rooms start to get expensive though, e.g. a room in Keswick YHA starts at £40. I think hostels are a bit caught between what they used to be "when I were a lad" and hotels, failing to hit neither the right price point nor standard. 

All communal. Maybe I'm just a sociopath.

And of course the parking is no more free than all the other stuff; it's included in the price which, in my experience, is far more than I like to pay for a doss.

I disagree, see my post above.

There you go then, holiday sorted for the square route of bugger all

It is partly a question of numbers, and partly a question of behaviour.  Then there is the grey area of what’s acceptable for one to do is not really on if many are doing it, which applies equally to camping.

Take for example my observations last week-end. Entire sea front covered in vans, including vans parking right on top of two very small launching slips. swimmers, kayakers and paddle boarders were having to squeeze between vans to get on the water. 

Stopped for an ice cream in another village on the way home, vans parked up right outside a campsite (though to be fair it probably was full), to get the best view.  Round the corner a party of three off road converted vans had driven a hundred feet or so over the grass away from a car park, circled wagons in a former small coastal quarry site and set up a fire (but in a brazier), they were out of view of local habitation. So on one level out of sight, not monopolising a car park, Brown-field location and fire contained; all good, but still a bit of a liberty being taken.

Then a passed small rural car park completely full with vans to the point no one else could get in.

While I would agree that vans have just as much right to use a car parks, roads and beach front lay-by’s, as the locals, you would have to be blind to think in these cases, the minor discourtesies and liberties taken aren’t  going to cause animosity if they are regular events. Individually they are small fry to Ned behaviour, but throughout the season (rightly or wrongly) they build resentment.

I entirely get the benefits, on many a wet midgie  night, finding a spot to camp in an area without a site I would have happily brought a van there and then!  I also get that a responsible van is far better than a bunch of dirty campers.

But these were all in one weekend, in a non honey-pot part of Scotland, and all the owners appeared not to realise that they were potentially adding to a negative perception in the local populations, happily soaking up the sun, or in some cases in side watching TV!
 

It seams we have got to the point that ‘others do this, so it must be ok’ group think.

I'd agree, but they still have many more advantages in terms of space and facilities over a hotel or b&b. Society has changed, I think just going to say a national park for many is an activity in itself, they drive around, shop, cafe, photos for social media etc. . But won't do any activity as such. The old school visitor would be out the door in the morning and return wet, dirty, tired, or sun burnt in the evening. Camping has become glamping, hotels add in a jacuzzi and call themselves a Spa and so on. Campervans are the same, rock n roll beds and pop tops were the bees knees once, now you need 4 beds, motorised awnings, bike racks, tow your smart car, showers, large screen tvs... none of which are needed if you want to step foot off the tarmac into the outdoors. 

Yep. This. The "I can't afford it" argument is absolute bollocks in 95% of cases. If you've spent £20k on a van and plywood and then you MOT and tax and insure it and mend something every year,  because that only got you a shagged out ragged to death DHL van, you're not getting cheap holidays.

Even the record-setting example of simes303, who has excluded all maintanance costs (which, come on, on an £8k 100kmile van aren't free) might just about be able to tentatively play that card, but I'd love to hear from anyone else that's done it for £8k. And that's still just about breaking even with staying in huts.

The commodification of the outdoors, something to experience by "looking at it", instead of "being in it". We sold our van in lockdown as the days of "stealth camping" are long gone, as are the days of just being able to park up on a camping site, vans are now often restricted to hard standing and a hook up and they are often all booked up. The rate of change in the last decade has been astounding. We've gone full family inflatable tent for the summer hols and a tiny light fragile think for wild camping.

Yep, rapid change, I’m worried some campsites will decide to go van-only post covid, as they may decide tent campers aren’t worth the hassle (do you fancy sorting out loud drunken lads every other weekend), vans are easier and the markets big enough for them to be choosy.

I agree with Robert many campsites are over priced, but in summer I try and use them when available.

As I said, maintenance and fuel are common to pretty much everyone, whether you're in a van in a layby, a van on a camp site, using a car to drive to a site to pitch your tent, driving to a youth hostel etc.

So far maintenance has cost me exactly £100. As I said, it's in good condition. 

If you've spent £20k on a shagged out DHL van then that's your own stupid fault.

And no, I can't afford to stay on sites as I've said above. That's not bollocks at all.

Nah, not having that. Van insurance, van fuel and van road tax are in a different league to car numbers.

I've spent a bit of time looking into this. I've been seriously considering it. Been on the fence for a while and obviously the last year has made me a bit jealous of the freedoms that come with the #vanwanker lifestyle. But the maths doesn't stack up. It really doesn't. Joining a couple of clubs and driving to the huts has worked out unbeatable over the last few years.
And, mostly, the writing's on the wall now. Perceptions are turning. They're not welcome any more so I'm not gonna buy in now, just in time for the backlash.

Like I said, you are clearly the exception, and you've done well and I don't resent that at all.
From all the literature I've read about acquiring and converting a van, and all the guides, hints, sales sites, everything, it's 15k upwards. That's why I said 95% of cases. It was a catch-all because I can't find a lot of evidence of people doing it for less than 15k. If you have, great. But the other 8 people in the layby next to you almost certainly spent a lot more.
Never said anything about whether you could afford campsites. The "bollocks" was in relation to a van meaning cheap holidays.

Yeah fair enough. There are some really swanky vans (mobile hotels) out there. I didn't convert mine. I bought it ready converted from a lovely retired couple. The guy had converted it himself and they were selling it because she couldn't get in and out of it any more as her knees were so painful. It cost me £8000 for the lot.

Fair enough if you want to use huts, but then you're restricted to places that have huts. You can park a van anywhere (within reason obviously. If you're likely to annoy someone then move on). It also depends what your holiday is about. During our month on the Outer Hebrides etc last August, we stayed in a different spot every evening. 

I think that ship sailed long ago, judging by the couple de-erecting their massive palace at Stanage at 10:00 the other week (in the heather next to and wholly visible from the High Neb car par). Or judging by the tent pitched very obviously at the weekend at the Woolpacks, still up a good couple of hours after first light.

Absolutely bang on, its heart breaking. I think Social media has some responsibility (I'm writing this on UKC, I get the irony). Facebook has been trying to get me to join groups like "wild camp UK" or "wild swim uk" and other bollocks. It seems like you can't do anything nice anymore without sharing exactly where this "hidden spot is" with a load of people you have never met or worse, make a video to "educate" your followers.  This then  leads to millions of people in the same places and people loosing their imagination about there to go. People are so disconnected with nature that even when they are there they don't get it. 

This pretty much mirrors my experience. I've had a van for the past three years and am now selling it, partly because of the reasons you gave above. That said, I absolutely love it and for certain types of trips, especially ones where you can operate out of a campsite preferably without having to drive far it was great. I felt it worked better abroad than here though, the only big advantage in Scotland is that it's more midge and rain proof than a tent. Due to a change in my work patterns (and covid) I don't foresee any multi-week Pyrenean trips happening for a while. Another part of me just wants to go back to the simplicity of living out of a rucksack in the mountains for days on end while I'm still able.

My brother is in a wild camping club.... they all have caravans, wild is when it might be a farmers field with only a toilet and cold water tap, that's as wild as it gets! 

That was a massively lucky win then. You can expect at least double that if you go looking now.

I get it. I really do. My beef is with the people that roll up in a £20k conversion (which is most of them. It might not be you, but it is most of them.) and pretend like they're dirtbagging. You can get a lot of airbnb for £20k.

Same here. There's always been vans parked up during the summer and they've been well behaved and tolerated by the locals. This year has been mental, a huge increase in numbers (even during the supposed lockdown).

Unfortunately it's been accompanied by inconsiderate parking, littering, crapping in the dunes and in some cases vans emptying their toilet tanks onto the carpark before leaving.

It's a minority behaving like that, but it does have a cumulative effect on the locals, who are now getting sick of vans turning up. The car parks used to have ‘no overnight' restrictions but the signs are long gone, but it was tolerated as it wasn't an issue. That isn't the case now.

I think this is pretty sound advice...

I have a van, not massive (T5), not hugely expensive to run (40 odd mpg) and is my only vehicle... I try and get away as much as possible and tend to park up at non-honeypot spots for a night here and there and use a campsite every now and again for a shower etc. (when you can get one - these days it's not so easy!) Been doing this for at least 10 years and never had a single issue!

I find the key is being respectful, low impact and as low profile as possible (my van looks like a van not a hotel)... I've had some great trips all over the UK with my GF and/or my kids and love the freedom to just stop for the odd night near where we want to climb the next day...

There is a proliferation in big vans these days which isn't great (for parking and probably the environment - although what about those that drive cars with shite mileage and don't stop out?) but again if you're respectful of where you stop, take ALL your shit with you, don't outstay your welcome and if asked then move on I'm not sure what the problem is??

Why does it matter what they cost? Or what their intentions are? Just playing devil's advocate here, but those lauded airbnb and hotel alternatives often come at the cost of displaced locals priced out of the housing market... 

Full disclosure: I'm on my second van conversion in five years. It's a means of travel that – done responsibly – affords almost unrivalled access to this hobby of ours. 

Bear in mind he's just bought a train ticket...

I think what gets on peoples' wick about the cost argument is that - particularly given all the publicity shots that go with the #vanlife stuff - it sometimes feels like a cover for "I don't use campsites because fundamentally I'd rather just park up in a beauty spot with no-one else around than use a campsite where I'm stuck in a field with the great unwashed", to which a lot of people are going to say "well, yes, so would I, but I'm also aware that a lot of other people would too and if we don't all suck it up and camp on campsites then the beauty spots are going to end up looking like day three of Glastonbury."

So to sum up, everybody’s preferred method of going on holiday is morally superior to everyone else’s being cheaper, less impactful and just better. You are all wonderful people and I look forward to not seeing photos of your holidays on Instagram in the coming months. 

I keep a cruising yacht on the West Coast of Scotland and there are many similarities with the motor home plague.  Popular (free) anchorages are rammed in season, large modern boats (mine included) are not the prettiest craft and somewhere like Loch Scavaig on Skye can be spoilt on a busy day with a dozen or so boats in there - and few people use a holding tank.  Popular marinas fill quickly at around £30 / night and you’re lucky to get a berth in somewhere like Tobermory during the season.

Heading North and West out of charter boat range helps……

It doesn't. At all. It only comes into the debate when they start spouting about how £20k camper is the only way they can afford to holiday.

I live an hour from the German Alps and it's got completely out of hand, down in Berchtesgaden ( the bit sticking down into Austria) as well as all along things have got drastic. In the National Park they have extra rangers on double shifts at night. They start patrol at 2 am and it's an automatic fine of €220 per head, no discussion. Then at 6am if you are still there €1200. Fire €1000. I've abandoned going to the Franken for the weekend since last summer.

And all I get on one of my news feeds is videos of how one fits out a Sprinter and all rest of the van-lyfe shite.

Entertainingly though last summer I was in Arco in a supermarket carpark and a young couple with a battered T4 spoke to me, they saw the German numberplate on my enduro. 

"Are you camping?"

"Sure"

"All the sites are full and we keep getting hassled by the police."

"Follow me."

Twenty minutes later they are on level hard standing, water tap and electricity, showers and toilets. Hotel and restaurant on site and a view past the Placca Zebrata down the valley. €5.00 per night/vehicle. Got to know where to go.

By yachts, do you mean massive motor boats and small ships? Or ones with actual sails and just an outboard to get you out of harbour? You'd think harbours would have a 1 or 2 night stay limit. 

What car are you driving? My van insurance, including breakdown, European cover, hire car, legal protection and NCB protection is 300 quid more expensive than my previous car (a Focus), and that's after it went up because said car was written off (in a no-fault claim). Would be hundreds cheaper if I had a runaround as well, as adding commuting to the cover precludes holiday only policies.

Tax is 35 quid more expensive than the Focus. 
Fuel consumption is 42MPG, which is low for a diesel, but since the Focus was doing around 40 on petrol, the difference is not great.

If you're comparing to some LWB Sprinter monstrosity perhaps, definitely not the case for a Transporter-style van.

Most cruising boats on the West Coast are in the 35 to 45 foot range, some smaller and a few larger almost all with inboard engines, it's a tough cruising ground with some challenging passages if you want to cruise extensively.  It's said there are two types of skipper on the West Coast, those who've hit a rock and those who are going to, I'm in the first category (but only gently).

The only marina I know with a time limit is the Oban Transit at 4 days.

My car insurance was £230 this year. Just ran a few quotes on a T27 for a laugh. £591. So.... yeah.
And I get 55-65mpg depending on driving.

I think all leisure activities are challenged. Finite space, increasing standards of living and wealth, reduced relative cost of activities/boats/bikes/vans and slowly improving 4g coverage enabling remote working. The pressures on the outdoors is only going to increase. I think local councils and governments need to be more ahead of the curve, otherwise the impact on local life, environmental damage and so on will only become worse. 

I used to work for Orkney Marinas.  We had no limit to length of stay for visitors, although the really big yachts and motorboats would struggle for depth, so we tended to cater for smaller boats.  Did get a 26m yacht, registered in Darwin, Australia rock up at one point, it looked enormous in comparison to the more usual 9 or 10 metre boat.

Chucking folk out after a night or two wouldn’t have been practical as often the busiest periods were when the weather crapped out and people would come in for safety.  Also when boats inevitably broke down and had to wait for parts to be posted etc

I wouldn’t imagine the numbers we catered for would have been anything like the amount round Skye etc because I suspect the Pentland Firth weeds out the less intrepid cruisers.  

Have noticed the attitude towards campers have changed noticeably over lockdown.:::

and after that “article” on UKC about converting a HGV Into a subtle van and burying your shit everywhere….

I think your circumstances and lucky purchase place you firmly at one side of the campervan bell curve, with brand new Californias on the other.

The mass of van owners lies in the centre, trying to claim how cheap/dirtbag/eco/whatever it is with their fingers in their ears to primary school maths.

Those California owners, >10yrs of every Saturday night in a £100 hotel. 

But the relevant cost is only the cost over and above the cost of the vehicle one would otherwise have.

Anyway, it is not simply about cost; it is about the pleasure, convenience and freedom which you simply do not get from staying in a hotel or bunkhouse or commercial campsite or whatever.

Of course, but I think that specific discussion point was about how some people do try to claim that they can't afford to pay for actual campsites, which for the majority of owners is nonsense. 

Well, fancy that, if I don't commute in my T5 T32 insurance is £320. Insurance on my Focus was exactly £230. "Different league" indeed. *With* my accident declared. My point is, and remains, you are overestimating some of the costs. I'm not saying your point doesn't stand entirely, I would absolutely sympathise with the view that someone that has paid £20k+ on a van has limited things to say about a tenner a night being affordable for instance. It's just a lot of us have not paid that ridiculous amount of money nor are we paying that ridiculous amount in yearly upkeep.

Why aren't we building rest stops like they have in France? It seems typical of the mindset in this country that we notice a trend of people wanting to do something that *can be* antisocial, and instead of thinking "what can we do to lessen the impact" we immediately jump to banning things and putting up passive aggressive signs. It strikes me as particularly wrongheaded in the national parks like Snowdonia - obviously there is a demand for overnight parking spots and more toilets, why not build them? Maybe because we prefer moaning about a problem to finding a solution.

We are not building these facilities because the van bubble is a fashion thing. By the time permissions are secured, contracts granted and work completed, things will have moved on and the cool dude van lifers will be in A and E having injured themselves with their clackers, skateboards or whatever the next big thing is.

I've said this before and I'll run through it again. If campervan owners want these facilities, maybe they could chip in for them? Maybe even get together and fom some sort of 'club' that has sites you can use all over the place. Maybe even allow caravan owners to join in help cover running costs. 

Hmm.... Wonder what you'd call it .....

More like most of Europe.

Bays for cars, campers and trucks. Toilets, fresh water, van waste disposal, picnic benches etc.. often built next to nice lakes, fields, forest and so on. 

The answer, because they'd just get wrecked by the minority. 

There's not enough campsite pitches in the busy season, or at least there haven't been for the last couple of years. Of course, that isn't the only reason that some cheapskates avoid campsites, but it is a big problem, as is the lack of parking in general. You can either whinge about it or you can celebrate the fact that millions of people want to visit our national parks and provide the infrastructure to make it possible and reduce the impact on locals. 

I live in the national park and sometimes I'm inconvenienced by inconsiderate parking and van-dwelling tourists. I also drive a small campervan (it's my only vehicle) and sometimes (like last night for instance) when I'm working away from home I sleep in it in a lay-by. If I'm being paid not much more than £100 per day I can't afford to cut into that significantly to pay for a campsite every time. I deal with my crap responsibly and I don't leave a mess. Why shouldn't I be able to park overnight, eg in the pass?

Why shouldn't I be able to park overnight, eg in the pass?

Because you, I and every other van user claim similar levels of responsibility but the evidence suggests otherwise.

As a possible solution, join the CC? 

Even in France campervans etc are now being seen as a problem in some places. It used to be common for vans to park by a lake a bit above our village by a picnic spot (tables, benches, bbq places but no toilets). Wasn't a problem when it was one or two vans a couple of times a week. But it became several vans every night throughout the summer & 'no overnighting' signs appeared last summer. I've heard similar stories elsewhere so its not just here.

Although we don't have an 'aire' or a campsite in the village, there are cheap facilities in the adjacent two villages ( 3 & 5 km away).

The problem in many parks is their planning rules and committee think they are managing a wilderness like yellowstone, but in reality there are over 400,000 permanent residents, 1000s of businesses etc.. in England and wales parks. That's before you add in all the non permanent residents visiting or seasonal working. E & W national parks now represent around 12% of the land, in Wales it's 20% that is a significant amount in terms of having development restrictions. 

Because if you can, everyone else can too, and when campervans shift from being a cute, whimsical, esoteric, one or two here and there rarity and become a plague, it's a problem.

It's taking the holiday budget and putting it into the economy where the tourist lives as it goes to buy and maintain a vehicle and into UK taxes on fuel (the vast majority of the price of diesel is UK tax) rather than the economy of the place they visit.

The Scottish Government should put cameras on the roads which cross the border with England and charge camper vans and caravans 10 quid for each day they are in Scotland.   If London can have a congestion charge why not?   Put the money into the regions they are visiting.

Read the other day that there are plans afoot for exactly that in some areas of the Highlands.  To be called Airighs rather than Aires.

Can’t imagine it will be a quick build.

My first van cost about £7.5k all in, I did later build a fiberglass high top for it which would take it up to your £8k.

I lived in it for around 5 years, and after the first year it had already repaid itself due to not paying rent. 

I did less mileage than I used to when I lived in a house, because I wasn't traveling hours every Friday night to climb, so whilst less efficient than the car I sold, diesel costs were actually down.

As it replaced a car, tax and MOT costs would have been incurred anyway.

I spent about three and a half of those five years on holiday, and a year and a half working. 

That's a lot of nights on holiday, and since I was spending about £5k per year the total cost of living (including food, amortising the cost of buying the van, diesel, maintainance, etc.) works out about £18 per day.

If you factor in the rent and bills I was no longer paying, the cost per night for holidaying in the van actually becomes negative.

The caravan club don’t allow DIY converted vans or people with a van with a mattress in stay at their sites. You can only stay there if you have a posh shop conversion with obligatory moose, eagle and tree decals. 

Second joining either camping and caravan club or caravan club (fairly sure one gives reciprocal rights on the other). As low as fiver a night in a lot of places and their certificated sites are limited to 5 vehicles so it’s much more peaceful, not sure about this year as not been on any yet but in past have had quite a few sites to ourselves especially mid week. 
 

I do know a couple of “wild camping” places have used occasionally that are ok but wouldn’t post them online these days or they soon won’t be, shame but think until the fashion is over there it will have to be restricted.

Anyone got a plan with what to do with many thousand identical Volkswagen transporters when all the owners go back to package holidays? 

Sell them cheap to the climbers on here moaning about vans parking everywhere and taking up all the space?

I think their rules specify a fixed bed and kitchen rather than a complete ban on home conversions. In any case I always found the Caravan and Camping Club more laid back and less sniffy than the Caravan Club ( now Caravan and Motorhome Club?)

But that's not holidaying, that is living. It puts you to the left of Simes on the distribution curve. 

I meant the other CC with parking in the pass but any CC will do.

Crochet Club anyone? 

Longsufferingropeholder said he'd love to hear from someone else who'd done it for £8k, so I fulfilled that love.

Also, drive to Catalonia and you'll find loads of people living in vans that cost that or less.

People are asking to have my lifestyle banned, while they take up far more resources than I do living in houses.

I don't suppose parking up outside Coventry is really the van life you're after, I'd it ? What you really are asking for is free sites in tourist areas.

As to why we don't have Aires, I presume it's because we have a much higher density of service stations so they aren't needed.

So have I, mine cost me £7200, bought already converted from a friend.

You are thinking of the aires along the autoroute which have little more than toilets & some tables, benches etc. There are also aires in/close to villages & towns which are for campervans & similar, usually pretty basic & cheap

That's a fair point. However, if we take it to the extreme, if everyone had your lifestyle the roads would be a giant carpark and the gutters would be overflowing with waste.

Coming back to reality, it doesn't take many vans to start blocking car parks and causing disruption, particularly in rural areas. Theres a coastal hamlet about 2 miles away that has more campervans that houses every night, and no provision for toilets etc. People there are tolerating it, but they're not happy about having vans parked in front of their windows.

Add in all the people posting "quiet, secret" parking spots all over social media and it's only going to get worse.

I feel for you, the fashion for van life threatening your lifestyle.

The article and thread focus is on holiday vans rather than full time van life.

As a full timer you will have a wealth of experience to bring forward. 

For me van life is something you do in North America where it is definitely a lifestyle and their infrastructure and space is ideal  for it. 

To me it’s a passing fad which will calm down post Covid. There will then be a lot of vans for sale.

I am not going to get one to add to the current overuse. Just looks a nightmare at the moment .

You are of course conveniently ignoring that there is huge Van ownership in Scotland.  From the accents and stickers most of the Vans I saw the other W/e were Scots based.

Also the worst van-based  Ned behaviour I’ve seen in the past has all been indigenous, as was the most cheeky (Parked in Tobermory car park, one space for the cab, one space for the awning and one parking space for the deck chairs and kids toys!).

Framing it as an English van problem is just playing politics.

As I’ve said before advocating a you have to pay policy or your presence is only acceptable if you economically contribute is a short step from those that pay (economically contribute) the most get precedence……and many Scots will be completely priced out. Or as a Scottish resident when am I no longer local and have to pay to justify my presence. 

If we want people to contribute we need to having offerings they want, and if we want to reduce the traffic those offerings need to encourage them to stay in one spot for most of the time, rather than a rolling convoy as per NC500. Which means shifting bog and rock, and lots of rambler path networks.

what we will agree on is that part of the problem in Scotland is the defacto monopoly on land ownership which hinders creation of new facilities.  The thorny issue is do those facilities go near the villages with likely local opposition in the hope of creating a customer base  (but where often there is very little currently that the van owners  want, and hope businesses develope to serve them), or de we put them in the landscape with the views the van owners want (but isolating the potential foot fall to local business). Either way to provide for the demand mostly it involves compulsory purchase from estates, and subsidy in some form to shift the bog and rock. The odd Croft pull-up here and there isn’t going to cut it, only working in lower volume situations (Tiree for example).

At present we are rolling down the road to local communities not wanting vans, associating all camping as ‘dirty’ and wishing the Central Belt would stay there.

Medium term large vans and motor tourism are potentially going to get ‘hit’ as part of our c02 reduction campaign, which may also encourage people to go back to having a week at one place rather than driving round the whole of Scotland.
 

Going back to the video.....well 8ntentioned of course, who exactly is going to see that and change their behaviour?

There is a growing movement among Applecross residents to be removed from the nc500 as the area just can't cope. 

How would they do that? Have a manned checkpoint on the Bealach na Ba?

If everyone was living in 6m x 2m mobile homes, there would be a lot more countryside to go around 😉

Yep, it's a problem... My brother lives in ullapool so I'm aware of the problems that the (commercial) NC500 branding has caused up there. 

To an extent, what we normally do with a demand for further services is build infrastructure to suit it. Obviously that needs to be balanced with retaining natural areas, but IMO if people are coming from cities to the countryside, central government spending should be used to provide the infrastructure to ensure the proper in the Cocteau's aren't adversely affected.

And there, I think, is the nub of the problem. People feel like they've paid for "their" view, and don't like that others can get the view for free. 

Where do we define the balance between the rights of people to enjoy home and the rights of people to enjoy travel?

I think in continental Europe the balance is much better than in the UK.

Hmm, it wasn't a lucky purchase, I paid what it was worth. I've got six other friends with campervans and mine was actually the most expensive.

But yes, I'm probably at one end of that curve.

Si.

The NC500 is a commercial enterprise. They can redraw the route if they want, and I imagine the majority would follow the new line.

I'd hesitate to ask for it to be redrawn though... it currently misses out some great bits of the coast, would be a shame if it found them.

I guess there is the option of an old school machine placement or bunker at the top of pass, but I suspect they'd prefer the map on the various tourist agency website is amended etc. 

I think it's too late now, as it's become a thing. 

In this case it's having strangers right in front of their windows that's the issue, not the view.

A lot of people would find this deeply disconcerting, regardless of where they live.

Would agree, we did 'it' maybe 10 years ago before it was a thing, but hotel /b&b'd our way around, usually doing 30-50miles a day sometimes less, plus added in skye, Harris and Lewis. Took over 3 weeks, there are lots more to see and do than racing around the loop, leaping from honeypot to honeypot. 

Oit of curiosity, i did poke my nose into one called peak district wild camping and was actually really pleasantly surprised at the level of positive behaviour reinforcement going on in every post, especially those for people who had no prior experience and were seeking tips. If you scroll thru and every photo has a series of comments saying well done for pitching late, leaving early, not having a fire, picking up any litter, being out of the way, etc., then that can only have a good effect i think, since people sure do love praise. 

Ah, OK. Yeah, there are arseholes unfortunately. Is not hard to find nice places to park without being right on top of someone's house.

But I do find an attitude in the UK regarding "I paid for this view" that I don't find in Europe. More in England than Scotland, but it's creeping in up there too.

I don't know exactly, but it will be some way short of expecting "their" council tax to fund free camping for the others' holidays.

Similar to the 'I paid for this van so now I'm entitled to do what I want' view that a lot of people have. 

Yes, I don’t see how they can hope to ‘disappear’ if not on the route, but maybe a huge chunk of the current NC500 visitor lacks any independent thought and just follows the route.

Quiet simply Highland Council could reclassify the road as unsuitable for caravans and motorhomes, and put a red circled prohibited sign at the bottom. then anyone using it in one would potentially have invalid insurance and be committing a motoring offence. Doesn’t cut down the car based motor tourism. Driving your big motorhome over the pass with no insurance into a community that knows you have broken the law will probably be a bit of a deterrent.

That would obviously affect the campsite trade and any locals owning motorhomes.

Parking and public toilets are necessary in any tourist area, with or without campervans, and they're generally a bit thin on the ground at the moment which leads to all kinds of problems. The current response in National Parks seems to be to crack down on "irresponsible" parking without actually providing good alternatives in the form of better parking options or genuinely high quality public transport. I was in North Wales this weekend and there were certainly campervans in lay-bys but the parking was overflowing in Ogwen down to cars as much as vans. I had a campsite spot but only because we booked weeks in advance, the campsites had no vacancies.

Or the attitude ‘I’m Scottish I can do what I like in my country’; fires, roadside raves and rubbish.

Follow that argument to it's logical conclusion and:

People without kids don't want "their" tax spent on funding free education for others children.

People without disabilities don't want "their" taxes spent on funding wheelchair accessibility provisions.

People who don't drive cars don't want "their" taxes spent on upkeep of the roads.

The point of taxation is pooling our resources to provide useful infrastructure that we are all free to use (or not, if we so choose).

Providing places for people to park self-contained vans would be a fairly cheap way to resolve a lot of the issues created by lots of people having vans. Society benefits from resolving the issues. 

Not wanting to spend a few quid from the pool on resolving it strikes me as a bit jealous, along the lines of "I have to pay for flights and accommodation, why should you get to have a holiday for the cost of the fuel?".

The simple answer to that question would be, once the infrastructure is there, you can use it too.

But what you're saying is "I've bought a van, why should I have to pay for camping?"

Put a tent up in a layby and see how acceptable that is. Put some cardboard wheels at the corners and draw a windscreen on it if you want.

There's a million things I'd rather see our tax dollar spent on than paying for your holidays.

Similar to the "I paid for this car so now I'm entitled to do what I want" view that most of the country has, and that the government and local authorities keep providing facilities to meet the demand for.

Why is it people get so upset by someone getting a vehicle that allows them to do between 8pm and 8am, what everyone else expects to be able to do between 8am and 8pm?

It's just a parked vehicle, the same as the one that probably got you to the crag.

...with a bag of litter and a turd next to it.

And before you say it, I know you'll assert that you don't leave shit behind, but that would make you atypical, which is the point you don't seem to be accepting.

Comparing installing infrastructure for disabled access with infrastructure for van-lifers to have free holiday facilities is not the logical conclusion imho.....

Though I am half in agreement (free/cheap hardstanding with toilets, waste disposal and water could work), there is the issue of induced demand. Increasing lanes on a road does not ease traffic congestion in anything but the very short term and more cars use that road. Installing "free" facilities areas could potentially lead to increased honey potting and unwanted overspill/more people jumping on the #vanlife bandwagon.

The main issue is that what was once a very niche activity undertaken by those with a minimalist attitude (generally) is rapidly gaining in popularity and the demographic of user is changing to those that have a larger impact on their surroundings. Also, there are a percentage of plonkers in all demographics, increasing the numbers of vanlifers increases the number of vanlife plonkers.

The question then is, imho, whether this increase is sustainable, will it continue, and is the answer to accommodate the new users or curb the numbers though restriction?

Within national parks, they should be dis-incentivising all private vehicles with a ring of park and rides around the edge and a comprehensive affordable bus system with walking routes/segregated cycle paths from campsites/accommodation to local amenities. We are a long way off that though and that takes a lot more vision and long term planning than any one in political office seems to possess nowadays.

The whole NC500 is now thoroughly signed, so that it can be ticked sheeplike without any need to even look at a map or know where you are. Remove the signs for Applecross and remove it from any official literature and many people will probably be unaware of its existence.

Plenty of places off the NC500 are still pretty quiet.

This is also a ridiculous position for the government and local authorities to take and they should be doing the opposite but as per my previous post, I'm not holding my breath.

It probably a mix of jealousy at people with more freedom than them mixed with anger from the downsides that we see everyday in the Peak - blaring music, rubbish, turds, BBQs and trashed verges/laybys/passing places.

Have you ever tried sleeping at a service station? These days they charge you extortionate rates to stay beyond 2 hours - I thought the whole point was to provide a rest stop for people travelling long distances? Wtf should we have to pay to stay at them?

Interesting and obviously controversial topic, going by the replies on this thread. 

As for Robbie and his van- i can vouch for his quiet, calm and clean approach to van life as he and his motley band of craziness occasionally breeze through Strathnairn leaving only ticked routes, skin and a fading laughter. 

On a more serious note 

The underlying concern here is the creeping restrictions being covertly nibbled back by landowners under the guise of poor behaviour or continuing Covid restrictions. 

The poor behaviour of course exists but i am unconvinced that the solution is to close everything down and shift people onto campsites.

Recently i popped out west from Inverness{Home} to some of my favoured camp spots to find new signage up preventing overnight parking and camping, I am currently in discussion with H.C access officers and Highlife Rangers about these specific sites to see if this is actually enforceable under our current access laws{i suspect not} 

Some Suggestions- 

• Some kind of tourist tax on NC500 to be reinvested in the communities affected helping with infrastructure.
• Support Highland communities by spending in local shops or staying a night in BnB's or campsites. 
• Take time to litter pick or Beach clean so your site is better off than when you arrived. 
• Post on Social Media positive images of tourists cleaning up and enhancing the places they love to spend time. 

Yes, ridiculous. Not long ago I stopped for a snooze at a service station during a long overnight drive. I just dropped off in the driving seat. I later got a letter telling me to pay a fat fine. I didn't bother paying it

Indeed, I believe we should all have the right to camp, in a tent, in a van, or in a horse drawn cart.

Lay-bys are for vehicles to park in. If you want to pitch a tent, do it behind the lay-by and all's good.

It wouldn't be "paying for my holidays", it would be paying for parking spaces.

There are many things I would change about what our tax dollar is spent on too, however I recognise it is a collective decision. 

I wasn't ignoring it.  But people who live in Scotland pay taxes in Scotland and have the right to visit their country.   There are plenty of economic disadvantages to living here while the country is run for the benefit of London, this is one of the advantages.

Separate subject.

Nothing wrong with politics.  England has 10x the population of Scotland.  If English people want to holiday in Scotland and they don't pay tax in Scotland then there is nothing wrong with Scotland making sure the economy of Scotland benefits from it.

The problem with camper vans which don't use sites is the money goes to whoever sold them the van, whoever maintains the van and the UK government in fuel duties.   But the communities providing the desired service i.e. the nice holiday location get nothing.

If you determine how many days a camper van from England is in Scotland and charge 10 quid a day for every day it is in Scotland but not on an official site you'd extract some money for the useful service which is being provided and the revenue could give the communities affected a budget to provide some infrastructure and deal with waste.

I didn't say anything about Scots being charged.  I said cameras on the border with England.   The Austrians have similar infrastructure to make sure people from Germany pay the 'maut' fee to use Autobahns in Austria.

The state can make people contribute without giving them what they want.  It happens all the time.

Yes, land ownership is another huge problem.

There's an argument that because of all the wind power and the long distances the Highlands would be a good area to trial a near complete switch to electric vehicles.    That might also be a way of incentivising tourists to rent camper vans in Scotland rather than bringing their own. 

That's a pretty ridiculous comparison in many ways.

Behind the lay-by in hill and country areas there is normally a dry stone wall or a hedge and behind that an agricultural field where you have no right without permission to pitch a tent, or maybe open access land where you have still have no right to pitch a tent (if the land is National Trust there may even be by laws specifically banning camping). Behind the lay-by on busy roads I tended to see only piles of rubbish including all too often pop bottle now seemingly full of urine and piles of shit and toilet paper.

People camping around Bamford and Stanage have had rangers and game keepers come and move them on in recent months. Is anyone moving on the lines of vans that are often parked up on the hard standing just across from Stanage Apparent North? Or in the popular end parking? I suspect not.

I suspect you also know that sleeping in a locked metal box and an unlockable flimsy nylon shelter are also completely different things. Perhaps you haven't, but I have seen people in a tent attacked by people kicking them through the tent. I suspect it doesn't happen much, but its not something you'd need to worry about inside a locked camper van.

You acknowledge that land ownership is a huge problem , and I agree. I imagine that part of what you mean by that is that a very small number of very rich people own most of the Highlands. If the alternative to roadside camping is staying at campsites owned by aforesaid very rich people I'm a bit hazy as to how it provides much benefit to the local economy.

As in France, reasonably priced municipal campsites might offer a solution.

All UK residents are subject to tax, which supports all regions of the UK, so under your logic all are entitled.

The issue is that the current and previous SNP Governments have chosen to starve local governments of funding and not directly intervened either.

Consequently a Central Belt Scot visiting the Highlands in their van hasn’t contributed to Highland Council trying to maintain services, and en mass results in ‘pressure’ just as visitor from elsewhere in the UK.  So should be subject to the same additional tax you suggest for exactly the same reason, to allow mitigation of their presence.

So what's new!?

About 50% of forum users hate camper vans. About 50% are OK with them. It's Brexit all over again. 

The video is aimed at the 50% who are happy/content with camper vans ; and gives them advice on how to behave responsibly.  Seems alright to me.

Having worked in the commercial motor industry for over 25yrs i have always wanted one.  I have seen hundreds go through my Merc dealership and weighed up the pros and cons for years.

Eventually i got one, at the right price and with the backup of a main dealership to convert it.  If you think others have managed to make the sums add up, they dont get close to mine.  I could have run that motor for the next decade and still made a profit.  It took up no more room than a mondeo estate.  Did 40+mpg, hit 100mph+ on German Autobahns etc etc.  I spared not a penny on upkeep but it hardly cost anything to maintain.  Myself and my daughter had trips around europe and all over the country climbing.  I used it for football trips with my son, once staying at a weed farm before a pre season friendly (They only charged me £5 for the night.  I even did trips to Dorset with 4  of us plus 2 dogs.  Plenty of nights out by myself in the lake district.  A cup of coffee and a chill for the night.  Arrive late and leave early.  I had some BMC rubbish sacks and sticks so i could clean up even more if needed.

I honestly loved that motor and what it brought to us as a family.

I sold it a few weeks ago because i dont feel i want to be part of the campervan scene of self entitled pricks.  I know its not everyone but it is most definitely the majority.  

It's not clear to me that many campsites belong to the very rich people.  The one's I've stayed at look like campers/caravan club, independent businesses, side business for a farmer and in one case an offshoot of an agricultural college.  Maybe some of them are paying rent for the use of the land to the estate.

The sites definitely pay local taxes, pay staff, pay tradespeople for maintenance work and so on so they are contributing to the local economy.  Somebody who drives up in a camper and parks in a layby is not.

If the site owner acts like a dick or if the site is owned by an estate which flouts access laws then councils should be able to exclude them from the scheme so staying at their site doesn't count for having the 10 quid a night fee waived.

Nothing against this.  One way to get councils some money to build stuff like this is to have some tax revenue from a charge on campers and an economic incentive to use a site because you will be paying the first tenner a night anyway.

So how come I can't drive into London for free?

You may not have noticed but I think Scotland should be independent.

Scotland has an asset which English people want to use but there's no revenue getting generated from it in Scotland.   Instead the revenue is getting generated from UK taxes on fuel and taxes on vehicle businesses in England.  This feeds into statistics like GERS and makes it look like Scotland is living off English taxes when actually what is happening is the UK is forcing Scotland to provide a valuable service for free.

The issue is Scotland's budget is set by Tories elected by England, when the English Tories impose austerity and piss money away on contracts for their pals and bullsh*t like Brexit Scotland doesn't have money to spend on stuff it needs.

Depends on your political view.  I think Scotland is a country, the English and unionists disagree.

Where did you shower?

Real climbers don't shower do they?

I paid a fortune to stay at Sedgemoor services once, was too knackered to carry on. You couldn’t just sleep in the car park they had a designated zone next to the diesel pumps for HGVs which meant a very noisy night and little sleep. Was about £15 as well which was a tenner a night more than the campsite I didn’t make it too. Certainly would try not to do that again

Even Londoners have to pay the congestion charge. The residents discount is now closed to new applicants. There is no arbitrary discrimination involved in the scheme

Yeah, that video is ridiculous. 

No that is not atypical. 

Mostly basin baths inside the van, otherwise solar shower hanging off the back doors when it's hot.

I spent four weeks away last August, and five the previous year, without needing a shower. The shower was invented very recently in human history. It's not hard to stay clean. 

That congestion charge is a local scheme implemented by the Mayor of London, and used to support Transport for London. It has nothing to do with general taxation, and applies to Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish, and English, so I'm not sure what your point is? Differences in charges / services to residents of each of the four nations (eg funding Scottish and non-UK EU student University fees in Scotland's government's case) are due to funding priorities and resultant actions taken by the three devolved governments, or of local authorities which is the case for the London congestion charge. 

Edinburgh, for example, could have had a similar congestion charge scheme if the residents had voted for it in 2005. Would that have somehow indicated that English, Welsh, and Northern Irish residents were not subject to and beneficiaries of UK-wide taxation? 

Some general UK government money is used to fund TFL (which is also effectively the case for Transport Scotland, for example) and I wonder if there might be possibly valid arguments about why for example 60 year olds from London can ride the TfL bus and tube to work for free but 60 year olds from Berkshire can't, or why a 60 year old visiting from Newcastle or Scotland can't ride around for free, but that's definitely not an English vs Scottish resident issue. 

So just to be clear, is the asset in question 'free parking for camper vans'? How do you value that asset given it's currently free to anyone with a road legal van from anywhere around the world? I don't doubt that particular asset is more used by English vans in Scotland, and probably EU-countries'-vans in Scotland than Scottish vans in England, but I have trouble imagining it's significant on a national scale of statistics like GERS however you value it.

Going beyond roadside parking for camper vans if you start trying to value everything to get a net value on currently unvalued assets and adding up every specific asset used by residents of other counties in a certain country I think the sums probably get very complex very quickly...

In any case, I wasn't aware that the UK government was forcing Scotland to provide free roadside parking for vans and there's absolutely nothing the the Scottish government or local authorities could do about it if they wanted, and I'm very curious about the mechanism there... I would have thought a combination of clearways, double yellows, no overnight stay signs, paid-for on street parking, and so on could have been implemented by local and Scottish authorities if they had wanted to? Or is it specifically singling out non-Scottish camper van drivers for parking bans / charges that you had in mind? 

UK government policy and corruption is a problem for the whole country, but surely that's not the only reason Scottish local authorities, along with other UK local authorities, are underfunded and not necessarily equipped to introduce infrastructure to support free overnight parking for camper vans, and the Scottish government could have prioritised spending differently if they'd wanted?

Perhaps you could explain in more detail how someone from Gretna has contributed more to the Highland Council than someone from Carlisle? How does Scotland's status as a country affect that? Or is it that you don't think their presence needs to be paid for, as people from North of the border have an intrinsic right to free roadside parking for camper vans due to their status as residents of Scotland? Does this right apply to residents or just to citizens who live in Scotland, or just people who can trace ancestors who lived in Scotland in the past hundred years, say? If the Highland Council found a way to charge all incoming camper vans including those from elsewhere in Scotland, I presume you'd be opposed to it then? 

My point is that if London can charge people in specific vehicles to come in then so can Scotland.

The asset is the highlands themselves as a great place to have a holiday.  Not free parking for camper vans.  It is about maximising the value of the tourist industry as a whole not simply parking charges.

I would start off by charging about half the price of a day on a site for every day a camper van from England is in Scotland and not on a site. 

Then after a while I would look at the data to see how much is being raised and the effect it is having on behaviour - e.g. whether more people are using official sites and B&Bs - and think about whether to increase the charge a bit or decrease it a bit.   

I've no idea if this kind of charge is within the powers of the Scottish parliament, possibly it is. 

Sure, the Scottish Government could have taken money from the NHS or education and used it to build free sites for camper vans.   My view is their spending priorities within their budget are roughly correct. 

The problem is their total budget is limited by England and they are not allowed to cancel useless sh*te that the English want in order to save money to spend on useful stuff.  The sh*t that needs cancelled is HS2, Crossrail - in fact every f*cking thing to do with London which has already had far too much spent on it - 38 billion worth of test and trace, f*ck knows how many £110 million PPE contracts, Trident and most of all Brexit. 

Scotland is a country.  Someone from Gretna is a resident someone from Carlisle is a tourist.  Tourism is a major industry but tourists that don't spend any money because they bring their own accommodation and park it for free are not that useful.   Perfectly reasonable to design a charge to provide an incentive to tourists to use paid accommodation.

Obviously if you are a unionist or English you probably start disagreeing at the 'Scotland is a country' bit. 

You're really equating your "right" to a cheap holiday, to education and support for the disabled?  OK then....

Providing the infrastructure you suggest could be approached a number of ways.

Some have suggested public sector financing through general taxation. This could be seen as pamper g to the needs of of the rich English at the expense of health care etc.

A direct tax via cameras on every camper entering would be a huge logistical project again drawing on public money to set up and may not profit for many years.

The way forward may be legislative. A simple "no overnight stays" law supported by incentives to land owners to provide camp sites would hand the risk (and return) over to the private sector. In the current political climate, I would expect this.

All are subject to a high degree of whim. The NC500 could end up peppered with empty hard standing and toilet blocks as fashions change and it falls out of vogue.

In 2 years time, I foresee a glut of cheap(er) vans hitting the market.

As a further point. Scotland is great but your weather is sh1t. Enjoy and profit from the increased visitor numbers due to the current captive market. They won't be there next year when the world is (hopefully) more open. 

Tom, a vast percentage of the vans originate from Inverness from the various hire companies that have sprung up to feed the demand. 
 

I've zero evidence but predict the opposite. Many owners of the large vans, motor homes etc.. appear to be retirees, either downsizing their house, or taking a portion of their pension as a lump sum. 

After covid van sales won't decline, they'll just travel further afield, and be replaced in the uk by the also ever increasing number of van owners elsewhere in Europe. This problem isn't isolated to the uk. 

Let's check back in 2023. I wouldn't be buying a van as a growth investment currently. 

Any vehicle is a money pit, it's just a question of balancing what does for you against cost or loss. 

No, I'm really not. 

I was pointing out the error in the previous poster's reasoning, by giving examples of how that reasoning can be used to reach extreme positions.

But I suspect you already knew that, and decided that making sensationalist claims against my character would be easier than engaging with the point in good faith?

Only from England? how telling.

[...]

In one sense it is a country (like England and Wales) however it isn't recognised internationally as such (say in the UN, the EU or the WTO) same as England and Wales.

I think there is a huge difference between yourself as a van lifer and what is being described in this video. 

The pandemic of people buying campers and then assuming wherever they decide to park gives them automatic rights to sleep there is a massive problem at the moment and you see it all over the place especially in the Lakes, Peak and North Wales. (I get it they're nice places to be) It's the lack of consideration that annoys me more than anything. Was in the lakes at the weekend, massive lay-by on the edge of Conistion, can easily fit 10 cars, nice swimming beach etc etc. 2 massive converted sprinters parked inconsiderately with table and chairs, bbqs etc etc. In whose mind is that acceptable? I assume it's a first come first served mentality but it's the selfishness and lack of awareness for others that really grinds my gears.

And disclaimer, I'm not saying everyone with a van acts like that it's just the typical sentiment of see one assume the worst!

I think for people actually living full time in a van the majority are fairly savvy at staying out of sight. What bugs me is they claim this "off the grid" lifestyle but then expect the same resources as me paying a ton in council tax etc etc. Does not compute for me I'm afraid, if you've effectively declared yourself homeless (to the extent you have no permanent address) you can't get arsey with people not wanting to share their view with you when your "home" has become part of their view!

Good point. It makes me laugh all the van owners produce superb calculations showing the plus side. I have yet to see any numbers where its negative, suggests to me that people are being a bit too generous and optimistic with their numbers.

As Summo said there’s no point in seeing a van as an investment, it’s not a 1980’s 911 or something. That being said Transporters have been holding their value well against other vehicles for decades, this is nothing new.
 

I’m not sure I can see everyone who has traded the Balearics for a camper holiday the last year just selling up again next year but will be interesting to see. Be about time for me to get a new van then, so I actually hope you’re right!

That's nothing, we had it tough. We couldn't afford rags!

Back to reality, in the 80s it was easily possible to be a full time climber on the dole.

Wow, hasn't this hit a raw nerve! There's a lot of pent up feeling out there. Perhaps someone needs a chill pill?

OK, I don't know why you need to use London as a precedent and I'm not sure what it really demonstrates? I don't see why Scotland couldn't if it really really wanted to though. That seems like quite a different point to the one you originally replied to though, which was making a point about your opinion that people who had 'contributed' had a right to visit Scotland (and your implication that somehow only Scottish tax payers 'contributed') and doesn't really make much sense... Almost as if you're not really talking in good faith. 

Ah OK, well that's a significantly broader issue than camper vans and the what the discussion was originally about then isn't it! So it seems your aim is to make as much profit as possible from the highlands (from non-Scottish residents only), in order to... Affect statistics such as GERS? 

OK, but that's just a camper van issue again... 

You were the one that claimed Scotland was being forced to provide free parking for camper vans, so I assumed you would have had some reason for making that claim, but obviously not... 

If you were taking access to the outdoors in Scotland in general I wasn't aware that it was a desire of the Scottish government and people to maximise revenue only from non-Scottish visitors and that the UK has denied them that ability - have to say I'm a bit sceptical that's really the case. 

Cancelling central government funding for schemes like Crossrail would have reduced the amount of money assigned to Scotland as consequentials, in addition to taking business away from some Scottish businesses which is surely the opposite of what you seem to want to achieve?

That aside, it seems you would like to see much much greater spending such that the NHS and education are fully funded to a degree determined by yourself, and therefore infrastructure supporting free parking for Scottish camper vans can be funded without anyone worrying whether it's a good use of money or not? Fair enough, that and your views on other topics such as Trident and whether or not the Scottish government has been correct in how they have spent the money they have, and their decisions not to increase taxes they have control over probably go beyond the scope of camper van politics and doubt discussion here would be productive. 

I don't know why you keep saying that Scotland is a country and that English and unionists disagree. Firstly it's false, as personally as an English resident I feel the definition of a 'country' is vague enough that Scotland might be a country, but so is the UK. I suspect many other English and unionists might not necessarily disagree that Scotland is a country too. I take it you don't consider the UK to be a country? Secondly, it does seem like a stretch to claim that being a tax payer in a particular country gives you a right to free overnight stays in camper vans and avoiding whatever other revenue generation measures you have in mind for the highlands. That would really be quite an unusual situation as far as I know from my experiences visiting other countries, where by and large expectations around payment for accessing certain areas and parking restrictions are the same for everyone regardless of whether they are a resident or not, with the exception of small local areas (eg small towns or villages) which might waive parking charges for local residents. Admittedly I'm not that well travelled compared to many and there might be some counter-examples but I'm still a bit confused by your idea that living in the same country as a destination which you wish to visit as a tour... resident of the same country automatically equals the right to park up a camper van for free and avoid revenue generation measures which are applied to people from other parts of a country which your country is part of, or foreign residents. 

I find your definition of tourist and resident a little odd I have to say. It comes off as rather unfriendly and nationalistic, almost designed to match an agenda than make sense... 

i think your tent would spoil my view as much as my van to yours. that’s flawed argument. The only thing to do according to your narrative is staying at home. I love my van and the freedom it gives me. We stay in campsites when we can but a lot of places we go don’t have one, so there you go. My points on this topics is always the same, if the council don’t get their shit together to provide paying overnight parkings the problem is not only not go away but get worse. In the meantime I will carry on respectfully wild camping in my van.

It's a long time since I've been in Inverness!  At least if they are renting a van in Scotland rather than bringing their own they are contributing to the tourist economy.  Maybe there's a general issue of too many vans and local government needs additional measures.

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit, not overreact and see what happens when international travel starts a gain and there aren't 60 odd million people in the country 24/7.

Plus figures would be stretching it a bit (but in the current market I would get more than I paid for my van 5 years ago) but there is a general consensus amongst my friends that a van has been more economic than having a second car and that ranges from people buying old builders vans for 2k to others paying 40k campers. 

But there is payable overnight parking it's called a campsite.

And there are a great many campsite in all the regular holidaying spots the UK.

If there was specific overnight parking spaces in towns etc it would just either be full all the time with the same amount of crap or it wouldn't get used because Vanlifers would resent paying to use it.

*edit* I'm sure you are a respectful van camper and the chances are this thread or video don't apply to you it's more the other percentage who see it as their right to park wherever and it be accepted.

"What about those of us who are struggling financially? I can't afford to pay £30 per night ..."

Yet you can afford to keep and run a camper van .... ?!

Sorry, but that is completely missing the point.

If all that were payable were the overnight parking (and possibly minimal facilities), that would be fine, but van owners only need the parking (and possibly minimal overnight facilities) so are obviously and understandably reluctant to pay for all the other stuff that most campsites provide. The same goes for those of us who regularly doss in their car (no different to a small van) and for those campers who only require a toilet and a cold water tap.

The point is that there is clearly now considerable demand for places where vans can just park and for campsites with minimal facilities at a fair price. the problem will not go away until this gap in the market is somehow filled.

Absurd comment.

People might have scrimped and saved to get and run a cheap old van. 

Other people might just prefer to spend their money on a van rather than overpriced campsites.

The "You can afford A, therefore you can afford B" argumenmt is logically stupid. If I had, say, £50 million to spend I might well be able to afford a private jet or a vast luxury yaucht but not both. This is no different. 

Plus it's retreading what was discussed in depth something like 100 posts ago by responding to the very first post that sparked that discussion...

It is the only country Scotland has a land border with,  it is 10x the population of Scotland and most of the ferry ports are in England.   Cameras on the larger roads which cross the border with England would get almost all the tourists that brought their own van with a relatively small number of camera sites.  

Scotland isn't recognised as an independent country *yet* but we put in an SNP government because we want to be.  As an SNP voter I think they should move us in that direction by acting like an independent country wherever they have the powers to do so.

Yea think we're in a similar boat, van + conversion cost around 8k all in. I don't run a car as well, it's only a Vito so basically T5 size. I have nothing against camping and our tent will be getting used for honeypot locations, but using a campsite for 30+ weekends a year + holidays would soon become prohibative. If campsites weren't charging upwards of £12 a night pp the balance would probably tip tbh. Some of the campsites I wanted to use this year were fully booked 8 weeks in advance!

Was quite surprised during a drive through the lakes on Tuesday evening. I was expecting the place to dripping with tourists and gridlocked with van lifers.

Only saw a few, assumed to be tourists, strictly avoiding any social distancing and/or wearing masks and a total lack of any vans anywhere, other than the camper van sales place in Windermere. 

Maybe those complaining are trying to put people off so the prices become more affordable again.??????🤣 

Same situation as me (although a T4 so have to spend the time I'm not holidaying in it, fixing it), £4k van, £2k conversion. We spend a lot of time in pub carparks or random places no where near people. When we want to go away for a length of time we break it up with a AirBnB or stay at a campsite if it's a honeypot. 

Similar here,. we're going to Lewis and Harris in Sept but that'll all be campsite, same for Pembroke (also because Simon's field actually charges a fair price). Weekend Peak trips and holidays that require more travelling we use quite low-profile spots and the odd pub.

Mixed views on that. 
 
Apart from those going  on long trips most of the van owners I know use them for sleeping  a few weekends a years. I do not know many people who literally  use their vans  to sleep say 40 weekends a year for example. 

You cannot beat a decent tent in respect of value in comparison.

you also then become tied to using the camper van to get value out of it . Bit  like people who always go in holiday to a second home/ apartment etc.

There are tons of campsites that are cheap with basic facilities. 

I guess what you're after is basically a carpark with a toilet block. So not something nice to look at unless it was tucked away out of sight.

Fair enough. When working full time we would have 12 weeks and around another 20 weekends. Post retirement, but pre covid I spent more nights in the van than at home. Friends were/are similar 

I have spreadsheets going back 25 years our vans have cost us less than our cars. I'll accept a small run around will have been cheaper than our main car and since I have a tent anyway it is perhaps comfort and convenience rather than money we have gained. Having said that the reason we haven't got two vans now is environmental rather than economic. If we were forced to sell one vehicle now even MrsJ would have no hesitation that it would be the car. 

MrsJ won't fly now so I do feel tied to Europe? I do feel a bit guilty that local cafes, coffee shop etc don't benefit from our custom much, but I'm that sad that the savings are factored into my spreadsheet. 

Edit. I was a teacher who retired at 48 most of my friends are a few years old but in a similar position. You can accuse us of a number of similar traits, I don't think poor financial planning is one of them. 

Very few in Scotland that don't charge at least £10 per night that I know of, so I rarely use them. Maybe the situation is better in England (I've not been south of the border for more than four years but my memory is that camping and parking is generally more expensive and problematical, so I now have little desire to do so).

Only those who are ‘up’ in the cost comparison game are going to pipe up because ‘anti-canners’ want to make the argument cost of A vs cost of (broadly similar) B instead of cost of A vs utility of A.

You don't seem to understand that in London, everyone pays.

I've been to countries with an obvious two-tier preference system for locals and for foreigners, and they're not very nice places.

We have kicked this around on here before and there is a shortage of reasonably priced stop overs. 

The seasonal sites will open shortly for their 56 days etc, but there do seem to be very few in Scotland?

National Parks need to wake up and do something about the problem.  All over Dartmoor we now have nice flimsy plastic signs saying no campervans.  They will last a few weeks then disintegrate plastic everywhere.  Great.

The only place truly out on the moor that you can pay to park a van normally is at the Plume of Feathers Princetown.  It's still shut. Sites are listed on the DNPA website but they are all right off the moor.

So not surprisingly,  vans all over the place. Solution is properly ban vans from camping anywhere and enforce with fines,  but open up the carparks at Princetown,  Dartmeet, Postbridge and Belliver to overnight parking, 1800 to 1000 for £10. All those locations have toilets.

Similar here. I can understand why United Utilities are patrolling round Thirlmere, given the mess some people have left, but they have 3/4 carparks with toilets that could be used as you describe.

The question is why is there a gap in the market?

It's probably because it would be hard to make it pay. If it's a farmers field he'll have to install either a water treatment plant, septic tank or cess pit requiring regular emptying. The toilet will require a water supply, (not necessary that costly if theres a blue pipe in an adjacent field), but theres still the trench, piping, fittings, not to mention actually building the toilet and fitting it out. If providing potable water there may well be regular testing to be carried out.

There's the field and the toilets and standpipe to maintain, fees to collect, complains to deal with and possibly bad behaviour or vandalism. If he doesn't want the field covered in human waste he might well need to have some facility for emptying chemical toilets.

Just what is a fair price for all that capital outlay and ongoing work, especially if people simply park up on the road next to it because “It's too expensive”.

Most of the pop up sites we use have a tardis loo and a single stand pipe tap no doubt off the agricultural supply. On a crap year a few tonnes of stone tipped in the gateway so the punters don't sink before they even get in. Really not costly to set up. 

Generally I agree you have a point, but using Armboth carpark as an example, the toilets are already their, someone already comes round at 8:30 to open and clean them, she will also usually inform everyone their at the time that the machine isn't working so they can park for free? I think I could improve their business model. 

But not too much, so they can charge for pulling them out😊