UKC

I know, I know, this has been discussed loads, hear me out though.

When people are making the case for assisted belay devices I often hear the argument that they're safer in the event of your belayer getting knocked out. Most recently I heard this in jezb's video review of the giga jul. It got me thinking - is this always a good thing? On a single pitch sport route having a dead (or unconscious...) weight on the end of the rope is probably a good thing. On a multi-pitch trad route, on the other hand I can imagine a scenario where you really wouldn't want this:

I'm on a loose section, maybe off route or maybe intentionally climbing a pile of choss. I'm a fair distance above my last decent bit of gear but I can see a ledge or a decent solid looking crack above me. Moving up towards it I knock off some blocks which hit my belayer, knocking them out. If they're using an assisted device then I'm stuck, my only option would seem to be to downclimb. On the other hand, if they're using a normal belay device then there's a good chance I'll be able to pull up some slack and make it to a decent stance and I've then got more options to proceed with a rescue.

Anyway, I definitely see the advantages of assisted devices, I just think the rhetoric that sells them as the best tool for every situation is a bit blinkered. At the moment it feels like I can't move for people telling me that not using one is like not wearing a seatbelt etc etc.

I think that no safety aid is going to always improve your safety, there will always be unusual cases where they are a disadvantage. Even seat belts; I'm sure with a bit of searching you can find a story where someone was killed due to wearing one, or survived because they weren't.

So the golden rule is to never just rely on something without thinking about it. Always look at the situation and weigh up whether you might be better off without an assisted device / prussik / helmet.

I bought a Mega Jul after a near miss with a falling block led to me thinking about what would happen with an unconscious belayer. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where it would have been a disadvantage, but I certainly don't view it as a vital part of my safety system.

Hope you liked the video!

In your example I think you could actually carry on climbing upwards. The Giga Jul would only lock up with a decent tug, you may well get some extra resistance though..!

I don’t think assisted braking devices are a solve all answer but I do think the pros outweigh the cons though. 
I like the choices in climbing, use an ABD, don’t use an ABD, I wouldn’t be particularly grumpy about a partner choosing either option.

When the Gri-Gri first appeared I was climbing with some friends on Chee Tor and the leader pulled of a flake that hit the belayer who instantly let go of the rope. Leader was saved by the belay device, so in answer to your point, which scenario is more likely to occur?

how quickly would the rope pull through an non-locking device I wonder? assuming that the belayer is tied into the rope, which should always be the case in multipitch, then I wouldn't be too concerned that the device didn't lock as long as it stops at some point. I'd be more troubled really if the belayers autolock locked when I was on the crux. Single pitch has to be taken on its merits. If I though I would be close to hitting the ground if there wasn't an autolock I'd probably not be climbing that route anyway.If the belayer was knocked out , eventually reaching the ground would at least enable me to give rudimentary first aid/go and get some help. 

You mean you don't carry a knife on your harness at all times when trad climbing?!

As pointed out by others there are situations that you can invent where having an ABD is a bad thing, but there are situations that you can invent when having a rope attached to you is a bad thing, however you haven't started to free solo everything from fear of getting the rope jammed in a crack have you?

That's the point I was making. The OP came up with a pretty unusual case, so I was pointing out that you could say that about any safety device; but that's not a reason to not use such a device, because it's far more likely to help you than not.

So in your case a Gri-Gri was clearly a good choice, and it would be in most circumstances. But there are some situations where it wouldn't be. The important thing is to weigh up each situation, not just think that Gri_Gri is always best.

Many of the assisted braking devices can be used in assisted and non-assisted modes, so in the event that the "best" option was selected at the start of the climb they could be considered the best tool for every situation, in that they're the most versatile.

Say you're climbing on 60s, you could be looking at a 60 metre fall, almost certainly bouncing off every ledge on the way down. I'd take my chances with the ABD

ok but how are you going to get down? your assumption is that someone will come and rescue you I guess. I suppose there are circumstances when a run through to the end of the rope will make things harder in that respect so again its back to evaluate the conditions in the route and make a choice . 

I also don't like ABD on trad routes because of the hard break, Thats going to put a lot of force on rope and gear if the fall happens close to belayer.

Presumably the best option may be to place gear and clip into it, or reverse to the last runner and clip that..... if possible. Then, if nobody is available to help, ab back down if there's sufficient slack to set it up, or else prusik back down.

Never seen the attraction of ABDs selling them on the idea you'll be safe if you belayer gets hit on the head, is ludicrous thirty years of climbing and I don't know anyone that knows anyone, where this would have been useful.

I have however witnesses people being dropped a number of times when using gri-gris, or similar, wrongly.

I'm of the opinion KISS works best, learn one thing, you do the same on every type of climbing / belaying. Can be used for belaying from below, above, bring up a second, twin ropes, it's all the same action.

Years ago my main climbing partner had epilepsy (usually just one or two full fits a week). Fortunately the only time he actually had a fit on a a climb he was leading and out of sight and communication, but I climbed up to him, shortening the active rope and relying on intermediate runners to hold both of us if necessary. It could just as easily have been me leading. Didn't Joe Brown knock his second out with a dropped peg hammer and climb back down to render assistance?

Actually I agree with you about people just belaying well with whatever method they want and being able to do so with another method if they drop a device.

Incidentally I believe there have been a few accidents with people bringing up seconds using guide mode when they were obviously not fully familiar with it. It would have been far safer to just use the normal belay plate function.

Not at all, it is however ludicrous to think it could not happen. A good friend of mine suffered serious injuries and was knocked unconscious when the leader knocked off some loose rocks.  I dread to think what injuries the leader would have suffered if the belayer was not using an ABD.

Al

I can see the attraction of that principle when a beginner but as you get more experienced, having a larger skillset if beneficial, especially when taking on bigger routes on bigger mountains. Why not learn a better way of doing things if techniques evolve and change? 

on what rope? Aren't we dangling on one end and the other end is attached to the ABD on our unconcious second?

In addition are ABD's suitable for top roping? the alpine up certainly isn't. I suspect that is also true for others. I suggest therefore that if you are multipitching with rotating lead you'll have to take two belay devices. 

In what way is the alpine up unsuitable for top roping?

I find the whole debate about assisted belay devices lacks clarity about the main issue, for many UK climbers: can you use it to belay a leader on trad?

The two potential issues I can see are:

1) it might be hard to take in/pay out on one rope alone, when using half-ropes (never mind doing both at the same time!)

2) the assisted braking may lead to greater forces on the top piece of gear in a fall, if the catch is very sudden.

The UKC review of the Giga Jul concluded that it was almost impossible to pay out on just one rope and you would normally end up belaying on manual mode (in which case, there's no point in having the device).

No one seems to really know the answer to the second question, including Edelrid - probably because there are so many variables. Edelrid do say, however, a dynamic catch can only be created by body position - i.e. stepping in/jumping. Which makes me think they have some reservations about the forces involved in using an ABD to catch someone on trad gear.

Anyone who climbs at E1 and above volcanic rock - and probably slate, too! - is placing micronuts and cams fairly routinely - i.e. pieces of gear rated at 4kn - 8kn. So, it's not simply a question of "most gear is easily strong enough, don't sweat it".

I'd kind of like to use an ABD to belay trad, but only if it works well! I'm not convinced it does. All these people going on about safety, and they don't even seem to have a clear answer on the question: is it more likely to make your gear fail? Given this, I kind of think everything else is moot - including the scenario in the OP - and won't be rushing out to buy a Giga jul, Smart, Click Up, etc.

In my experience with the Giga Jul, it’s super easy to pay out one at a time. It only takes a few pitches for the GJ to get used to it.

Thanks Jez. You'll have to give Alan James a lesson on it, in that case Although, tbf, he's specifically talking about paying out and taking in at the same time.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/belays/edelrid_giga_jul-12021

poor choice of words but the problem of the alpine-up is documented elsewhere, butwhen the belayer is above the climber the locking mechanism doesn't work so a pulley is needed, and this gets a lot worse when the climber ending up below the device occurs by the leader falling before placing gear and ends up below the device. I imagine this is true of all locking devices but I'm not sure of that. they all seem to assume that the live rope  is always above the device which isn't true at he most dangerouse point in multipitching (i.e. when a fall would result in a factor two imapct on the rope).

This is a scenario I practiced when trying out self-rescue. You prussik to the gear, clip in, back it up (if possible), take your weight off the rope, tie it off to the top piece and prussik down. It's faff, but works.

What makes it unsuitable? I have a GriGri and a Smart and have used the BD and Salewa devices, they were all absolutely suitable for top roping (with which I take it you mean belaying from above).

That said, I tend to use half ropes when grad climbing so I don't often use anything but an ATC Guide for that purpose.

Edit: The self-rescue scenario above is the same as your second having being knocked out while simulclimbing and hanging on the rope. If they are just belaying, they are probably not hanging on the rope, in which case you may very well be able to introduce enough slack to the system to be able to abseil, by attaching the rope to a sling.

I use my alpine up for bringing up seconds all the time without issue. I just "click it up" before they set off. I actually think it's one of the best use case arguments for the device.

"how quickly would the rope pull through an non-locking device I wonder?"

It depends on the rope and the device.  Speaking from personal experience with an old ATC and a 10.5mm rope the answer is "pretty bloody quickly".

However, with my most recent reverso4 and a stiffish 10mm rope the answer is very slowly if at all and if there is the slightest drag on the dead rope it's essentially locked.

On the other hand with my very slippery 7.5mm half ropes there is essential no resistance on my reverso unless the rope is forced back.

Speaking of which, do they make the reverso 4 anymore? the one with the cut out side panels? every new one I've seen has solid sides...

Re forces on gear, Petzl have looked into it:

Page 8 of the linked .pdf

http://theundercling.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/PetzlDynamicRopeExperie...

It also explains the EN 892/UIAA 101 drop test pretty well from P.11, which is worth a read for those who don't know/understand it or don't want to pay for a copy of EN 892.

Regarding the belay devices, for info, there is an new standard being written (when published it will be EN 15151-3) that will cover these devices. It will actually measure the "assistance" that the device gives which, as we know, it variable across the designs and even for devices, neither consistent across diameters nor rope angles/loads. This will probably lead to 15151-1 and 15151-2 being updated as well. There is no "amplification" of force at the gear/bolt test/measurement though obviously.

Thanks for this - it's interesting and in line with I'd already heard about the Grigri. It's very relevant to note the force on the anchor increasing from 4kn with a Reverso to 6kn with a Grigri, in a FF1 fall. Other devices, e.g. Giga Jul, are reported to let a bit of rope slip through, though, so I wonder if that means they are very comparable to a standard ATC or more comparable to a Grigri?

One isn't necessarily dangling if the ABD using second is unconscious, in your example you mentioned downclimbing. If so climbing down  to last runner/placing new gear and clipping in via sling etc are still possible. If enough slack is gained by stepping down then it is possible to get one's weight of the rope, set up an abseil and get back to second.

If there was insufficient slack then one could surely reverse prusik. The second's weight would be on their belay anchor, not on the rope. If the leader was dangling then they could prusik back to the top runner or possibly just pull themselves up using the rope running from belayer to the top runner, clip in with a sling and slack would then be available to set up an ab. If there was insufficient slack for an ab then reverse prusiking would be possible...providing one could get one's weight off the rope, eg by stepping up in a sling; once untied one could at least retie the loop for attaching to the top runner. Obviously I'm missing out details like remaining clipped in while untying. I'm assuming climbing on a single rope here but similar methods could presumably be used for a double.

I don't use ABDs yet myself, so can't really comment on their use apart from having assumed that most devices are used for toproping inasmuch as people bring up their seconds using them.

Edit: others have already raised some of above while I was typing. Also i think it was the OP that mentioned downclimbing, not mutt.

I use a Mega-Jul. Brilliant bit of kit. I originally had it recommended to me when the kids were a bit younger as it gave an extra bit of security when they were belaying. But I love it myself. It's great for alpinism as it is light, gives an extra level of protection to my leader in case of stonefall, and also gives the extra protection abseiling that would normally require a prussik loop as a backup.

What's not to like?

Steve

I don't think they are better, there's more things to go wrong, and apart from the "it might save you if something out of the ordinary happens" much more likely to confuse people.

I've seem at least three people injured using gri-gris, I've seem a number of near misses with then too, I only know of one accident with an normal belay device, and it was a subtle combination of circumstances, and the belayer, eventually, stopped the fall.

So each to their own, I was only giving my opinion, apart from having to learn something new, which I do for work on a regular basis; so not frightened of that. It's extra gear to cart around, heavier, and more expense which I can't see the point of.

Price, weight, lack of adaptability (prussik loop can be ab-tat, etc.)

Fair do's. As an engineer, I have an "appropriate tool for the job" mentality and switch between a Pivot and a Grigri.

The Grigri is great when working a route, makes a massive difference to the belayer imho. However, I might switch to the Pivot for the "send go" as less likely to short rope the leader.

Guide mode on the Pivot is a joy on multipitch. Allows me to faff, eat, sort the rack for the next pitch and it's a lot more comfortable as I can move about a bit as well. I saw the light on bolted Euro multipitch and have not looked back!

I would imagine a Gig Jul type device somewhere between the two? Having not used one, I don't know how "quickly" it catches. I will dig out the 15151-3 testing info and see if there is anything in there.

P.S. if you are comparing to the original ATC than anything is a hard catch in comparison, just abbing on one of those on skinny ropes was terrifying!

You can make that two, I have been dropped from the top of Awesome Walls Sheffield with a normal belay plate. The belayer's concentration lapsed at the wrong moment, the rope was brand new and very slippery. The fact I'm not f***ed was his quick thinking and luck, he jumped on the pile of rope and stopped me on my feet on the floor. I still belay with a regular belay plate much of the time and belayers must pay attention at all times but this would have been stopped or slowed down to nothing by practically any assisted device.

Or Alan could watch Jez B's excellent YouTube video!

Regarding the Alpine Up you mentioned in that situation, I don't get how is it different from any manual device before the leader places any pieces, you'd still need a redirect or a fixed point belay with HMS at anchor...

If we're talking trad, the dynamism in the ropes and drag through runners must play a much larger part in absorbing the energy of a fall than friction  from slippage though the belay device. Most trad falls are very soft unless low down the route. 

All the issues I've witnessed have been people, panicking and pulling the release leaver and the rope just flies through, I don't know why this happens, but it seems to have been a common theme with gri gri falls.

I suppose anything works if you use it enough, I just do see any reason to change from something that works, perfectly well for me, in almost all circumstances.

Ps glad you're OK

Weight? ?? ???

It's 65g !!!

And while a prussik loop can be ab tat, having a prussik loop and an abseil device means one more thing that you can get wrong when doing a multi-pitch abseil when you are tired after a long day.

Happy to pay the extra price for such a brilliant piece of kit.

Steve

It's quite a complicated system, drag can actually increase the force on the anchor whilst decreasing the force on the belayer, see P.9

http://theundercling.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/PetzlDynamicRopeExperie...

The fall feels "soft" to the belayer as the force distribution changes.

I agree, in most trad situations 99% of us encounter, the falls are small and soft. However, if you are climbing at your limit above small gear, these things start to matter.

well its a bigger more complex device and to engage the lock (which doesn't exsit on a manual device) everything has to be just so. It may well be that manual devices can't be as strong breaking in the situation I describe but by their very nature auto breaking devices simply have to work because the belayer expects that behaviour. In Manual Breaking devices a degree os slippage is expected and this reduces the impact of the factor 2 fall. If the Alpine up fails ot auto break then the faller hits the ground, and if it does achieve an auto break then the factor 2 is not mitigated by any slippage. Other auto-break devices *might* mitigate high impact falls with some slippage.

So what you're saying is that the fall has to be just right for an ATC to be the right choice. Because it has slip then you might hit a ledge with a Factor Two fall whereas with an assisted braking device you'll be stopped before the ledge (if it brakes with 100% efficiency - which isn't true in all situations. Some assisted braking devices actually generate less force on the runners than a hard lock off on an ATC). 

The right choice if you're really worried about pulling delicate gear is an italian hitch or a body belay. If you're worried about force on the gear then you should drop the belay down, use pulleys on key quickdraws, use a fresh rope or a low impact rope, pay a lighter person to belay for you.

So many variables ... the key is to make an informed choice and be happy with it presumably.

I think you have misunderstood the original problem case. The situation I am highlighting has nothing to do with ledges, its the factor 2 fall taken if the leader falls before putting in gear at an intermediate belay. This risk is present every time a leader sets off on a new pitch. If the leader falls there he falls 2 times the distance from the belay device than the length of rope paid out and that results in a factor 2 impact on the rope. A factor 2 on a rope would in the best of circumstances, damage it to the point of having to replace it, in the worst it might break. 

Added to that the alpine up is *not* certified for that type of fall and therefore no-one should use it on multipitch climbing. But if you do, you may well find the locking mechanism doesn't work which would be a surprise to the belayer and result in an unarrested fall. the manual breaking device definately will not auto break and so is less likely to result in a unarrested fall. 

afaik all auto breaking devices are designed for belaying on sport routes, i.e. from the ground. Therefore there is no chance of  arresting a fall with the live rope going below the ABD. all arrests occur with the live rope being pulled upwards. No safety device should be used outside its design parameters.

That's not true.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/belays/edelrid_giga_jul-12021

Although we did say that you were unlikely to lead belay from below in assisted-braking mode, it isn't impossible and it is a very useful mode when double-rope belaying from above. It is the sophisticated in-out rope manipulation that is tricky in assisted-braking mode.

I now use the Gigajul most of the time as my trad belay device simply because it offers this auto-locking option when bringing someone up, and it doubles as an auto-locking single rope device should I need that.

For me, if you only want one belay device, then this could well be the ideal one since it effectively covers all bases.

Alan

I agree, I think it’s the best do it all device out there.

The chance is the same for your ABS as for any manual tube device - very, very slim, almost zero.

What?!? A manual tube device will behave the same with live rope below it as the ABD you mentioned - it'll just run through, dropping your leader, unless you are very, very lucky and manage to completely reverse your pretty much ingrained braking hand position in an instant (even than it might still not brake enough). The strands will be parallel - no breaking power at all from the device itself, perhaps some very small braking power from the live rope pressing on the brake strand (or not). Parallel strands is obviously wrong in any case with plates and tubes, assisted or not.

That's why people use HMS/Italian hitch & fixed point belay from the anchor, redirects or the various other methods...

Anyway, it's completely hypothetical. You have created a situation which is wrong use in the first place and use it to argue about merits of some specific ABD versus manual tube. But you are still doing it wrong.

Sorry, that's a typo - obviously ABD, not ABS

But putting you ABD in to a different mode isn't one more thing to do?

ATC works the same in every situation, it you can't use a prussik then I'm not sure you should be climbing, you can still abseil, without a prussik and safely too, so it's not a matter of "having to think" is it.

Knock yourself out

Like I said each to their own, but there are a lot of dubious arguments used to try and part people from their money, when something most of us already have works fine.

Jimmy

I thought body belays worked fine? Why did we change again?

With respect, I don't see that. I already have guide mode on my reverso, so not bothered about assisted-braking for seconds. It's lead belaying that interests me. If the device can't do subtlety, then it's useless for trad, because there's no situation when I'm going to say: today's the day to give my partners mediocre belays! Even worse if, like the Grigri, it tends to increase the force on the top piece of gear. When it comes to sport, I feel a bit different because working a route comes into the picture, but when it comes to trad, I'd rather put my trust in my climbing partners (and myself) than give a substandard belay every time for the off chance of being hit by a rock or dropping someone through belaying like a punter.

By the by, I didn't dislike your comment - I do kind of feel, as Jez said in his video, that nagging question: should I be using a AB device? I just feel the balance of things for me is still tilted toward a tube device, and I feel a bit irritated that the manufacturers (excepting Petzl) don't give clearer yes/no answers to some of these questions.

I'd rather have a selection of tools available that allowed me to do the best job possible.  Learning a couple of ways of belaying isn't a particularly onerous thing to learn - I recall a recent discussion about the merits of guide mode, and some people not wanting to use it, despite obvious disadvantages to only using a device at waist level. What are you going to do if you're en route and drop said device`?  Guide mode and Munter is very effective.

It can do subtlety, just not so well in assisted mode. In normal mode it works like any other tube-type device.

Also, I don't think guide mode work's very well for waist belays, in fact I would never use it. In those cases, the option for an assisted mode comes into its own.

Alan

To me threads like this emphasize just how functional and versatile tube devices are. They do all the basics and more well: belay for leader and second, abseil, and importantly are fine for double ropes (which many ABDs don't manage). They are are cheap, light, straightforward to use and the different models are basically interchangeable. Friction can easily be increased for skinny ropes. No moving parts to malfunction. Many have guide mode.
My backups are waist belay (which doesn't inspire confidence in those unfamiliar with it), or Munter which doesn't require any extra device but is difficult with double ropes.
Like others on this thread I can see the advantages of ABDs, especially for specific purposes, but TBH I'm confused by the number of devices which are often very different with seemingly each having its own devotees.

A MegaJul is a standard ATC, with a slight offset which puts a kind of camming action on it so it locks. It has a thumb loop which you use to release it. When you are abseiling, you need to put a bit of positive pressure on the thumb loop so the rope runs - in the same way as you need to keep a hand on the prussik loop if you are using it as a backup on an abseil. If you take the positive pressure off the thumb loop, the MegaJul stops you completely and immediately.

For belaying, I would slightly caution that until you are really used to it, it can jam a bit as you pay out the rope. For me, I'm happy to put up with this as I only climb sport when forced indoors onto the wall.

I've been climbing for 40 years thank you - starting with an original Sticht plate for belying on (in fact I found it in the bottom of a sack the other day . And personally I prefer a Klemheist to a Prussik as it doesn't jam.

My basic point (and one that I have been drumming into my kids), is that having a set of basic procedures and systems that you are utterly familar with is good practice. Having a ATC type belay device that automatically locks if you let go of it seems good practice, and means there is one less extra thing to have to think about on multi-pitch abseils.

Oh definitely, but in this case I think it is worth it for the extra security it gives without increasing the weight. 

Steve

I have a WC Revo which my kids use to belay me on trad leads and each other on top-ropes. They’ve just started leading and I’m interested in getting another device for them to use once they’ve led a pitch. And maybe I’ll use to add an extra layer of protection. Will another Revo work well for bringing up a second or is there a better option?

My take homes from this:

1. Those climbers on this thread who have actually used the Giga Jul rate it

2. They have used it in ABD mode for belaying a trad lead climber and say it works well (unless Ive missed something?)

3. If I was belaying a friend leading and decided that ABD mode wasn't best, I could use it in manual mode

6. You can abseil on it without the need for a prussik

6. It costs more than a pivot or reverso but will last longer

7. If you are not practiced with it you could use it wrongly, but in.most circumstances this would be inconvenient rather than fatal 

On balance, as I'm looking to do longer alpine rock routes where assisted breaking and guide mode would add an extra level of security when belaying and eating / drinking / putting on a jacket, that may also involve a good number of abseil to get down, I don't mind paying a bit more and I'm prepared to practice, I'm pretty interested. 

< Having a ATC type belay device that automatically locks if you let go of it seems good practice, and means there is one less extra thing to have to think about on multi-pitch abseils.

It doesn't "automatically lock if you let go of it". The manufacturers' instructions and anecdotal experience of users suggests you need to keep a hand on the dead rope and that if there is no pressure on the dead rope then it won't lock. This fundamentally undermines a lot of the BS people are talking about how they want to belay safely whilst unconscious... (?!)

Also, it is heavier. 120g compared to 57g for Petzl Reverso. Not a lot in the scheme of things, but let's stick to the facts.

Also, a french prussik won't jam except through user error or monumental bad luck.

Do any of these abds give a gri gri like abseiling capability but on double ropes? 

Hands free stop to clean, inspect, rescue stuck gear etc? 

(yeah, yeah, I know the gri gri is not a hands free device but this is the real world) 

The mega jul I think is a bit lighter than a Reverso or at least about the same. It's brake action is basically automatic. Of course Edelrid aren't going to ever say that, but if you got knocked out I think the Megajul would still catch a falling leader in the same way a grigri would.

The alpine up in assisted mode does operate pretty well like that. It's not recommended of course but I have never felt it needed backing up to stop and swing around to do stuff. 

Unless you want to re-direct the rope through a jumar/prussic above to create a pulley to move back up the rope - in that scenario the device the angle of the rope will cause slippage unlike a Grigri.

The Alpine Up allows self-locking abseiling like a gri-gri (of course best practice is to always tie a catastrophe knot below the device if you're going to be hanging around), with halves, twins, or single ropes. The use of the folding handle is also fairly gri-gri-like.

It can be used in "click up" (assisted braking) mode for belaying and abseiling, or in manual mode for anything you can use an ATC-style device for, plus guide mode as well.

Thanks, how easy is it to belay using the assisted rope, does the alpine up tend to jam ore not?

On a scale of gri gri with fat furry rope to old style atc with 7mm rope? 

Somewhere in the middle. It pays out well but might occasionally click up (lock) if your leader unexpectedly yanks the rope to clip, though it's an easy tug with the left hand to unclick. It's far better than its stablemate the click up plus, which is virtually unusable as a lead belaying device due to it's propensity for locking at every outward movement of the rope.

For me, the best thing about the Alpine up is that there's no new action to learn - whether in tube mode or assisted mode you belay pretty much exactly the same way you do with an ATC.

As Stegosaur says, it can lock if you're not paying attention when the rope gets pulled, but that's kinda what the assisted mode is there for. Otherwise, as long as you're using two hands to feed the rope through it's very smooth.

Kleimheist doesn't jam? Really? Not my experience I might add. It jams quite easily beneath overhangs and unlike the French Prussik, is almost impossible to release unless the weight is removed from the ab-rope. Again it is more suitable when used for tape.

No body said you had to!! Thinking and knowing are two different things though, aren't they.

ACTs work, they work in every mode, in the same way, you don't need to make sure you do anything differently, they just work.

ABDs work too, in most situations, but they can be a faff when using double ropes and when bring up a second.

If you like them fine, use them, but making daft comparisons, just makes you look a bit silly.

I'd use a screwgate and either a munter, or two screwgates (or quickdraws) and make a karabina brake.

what are you going to do if you en route and drop your device? The question's a bit daft really because if you drop any device, you need to know what to do, have one or the other doesn't make the dropped device any better, does it?

Well done! I don't know why you felt the need to tell us how long you've been climbing, I've only been climbing for 20 years, so on climbing top trumps you've won on "Length of Time Climbing".

I also prefer a Klemheist, but was using the word Prussik as a more general term, but thanks for the info.

Another handy tip is whne abseiling I always extend my belay device and attach the Prussik, or Kleimheist in my case, to the dead rope. It gives much better control.

You give a nice example here of why having more than option in your toolkit is a good thing

I'm talking about a Mega-Jul, not a Giga-Jul, and the Mega-Jul is 65g.

I have no experience of the Giga-Jul, but have been using a Mega-Jul for 4 years or so, with a variety of ropes ranging from twin 8.1mm everdrys though to a 10.5mm full rope. Let go of it on an abseil on any of my ropes, and it jams instantly

Steve

Fair - I do use Klemheists with tape slings (usually narrow ones) for prussiking. Good to know that they don't work as well with rope slings.

Steve

Does it operate EXACTLY the same way as you would normal operate it?

On rope an Autobloc works better, basically the Klemheist but clipping both ends together rather than pushing one through the other.

Thanks - that's great to know. I'll try it.

I'm presuming that if you have a longer sling you would need to knot it so you have the wrapped-round section the right length for clipping through a caribiner.

Steve 

I can understand the desire to retire a rope after a FF2 but the fall won't "break" the rope (though a swinging fall might cut it)

Which standard is it certified to* and which standard are the devices that are certified for "that type of fall" certified to?

*I'll give you a hint, it's EN 15151-2 & UIAA 129

Could you point me to where this has been investigated/documented?

Honestly lads you all need to get off the internet and go climb a few nice routes. Use what device you feel safe and experienced with and have a good day. Hope you get a bit of sunshine 👍

Had one occasion when I was saved by a ABD (grigri).  A few occasions when rock fall just missed the belayer - a few inches wrong direction and an ABD would have definitely been useful. Surprised you've not had similar experiences - maybe you don't get out much?  Trad's a bit different, but I'm not keen on sport climbing with people welded to their tube type gubbins.  Before hooking up I tend to check what thing they use and politely decline those with attitudes such as yours.

Not if you put it the other way around, then it's best to use a prusik just like with an ATC, Reverso etc. I've always liked the auto lock way using a krab as a release handle but I remember Edelrid actually recommending the normal way when I reviewed it. https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/belays/edelrid_mega_jul-6739

ha ha, good idea, I might use that myself.

I can only go by what I've seen, which is more people either hurt or nearly hurt by miss use of gri-gris, than their belayers being put out of action, and them needing an autolock device.

Like I said each to their own, I prefer what I feel more comfortable with and don't see the "proposed" benefits worth the expense or the effort. Obviously, next week my belayer will be knocked out by a lump of rock, in which case I might change my mind.

Jim Titt's analysis. Here's a screenshot of the graph of hand force vs braking force (there's a  few DAV analyses out there too)

https://cdn2.apstatic.com/photos/climb/112439161_medium_1494304891.jpg

About time Jim's testing came up.

First time I have seen the graph but it looks like some devices tail off at 160 kg maximum holding power. Also bear in mind that this graph only illustrates the very low end range of forces possible .

Bearing in mind ottomh that the impact force in a harsh fall can be say 6 Kn or about 4 Kn on the belayer and 1000*4/9.81= 400+ kg, go figure!

In earlier threads , Jim stated he only uses ATC-XPs and Grigri's with a nod that the click up was OK.

After seeing the graph , I have no reason not to do likewise.

Seems sensible for multi-pitch. It scare me about factor twos (as it should). I did think that it might be a good idea for a leader to climb slightly beyond the belay position and place a first runner for the next leader (if the first runner wasn't obvious and/or it was a hard move to get to it).

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately I can't see from the graph how to relate that to the force put through the top anchor in a dynamic fall.

There has been quite a lot of work put into this by CEN as part of writing the new standard (EN 15151-3) and the static tests have shown little correlation to their dynamic/drop tower tests so I would caution drawing too much from that graph, i.e. I would prefer an Mega Jul sport to an ATC XP in an FF2 from what I have seen.

Rick, do you know where that 4-6kn figure comes from? From the Petzl testing, they had the top anchor/bolt/gear force as 2-3x that of the belayer force and even for an FF1 on a grigri the belayer didn't see anymore than 2kn? In a trad scenario with rope drag, the belayer would see even less?

It obviously depends on quite a few different things but if you presume a fixed belay point and a sling around a boulder for your gear at the top (i.e. a peice of gear that won't fail) then the peak force will be about twice the force that the belay device can apply.

Once you enter the real world then the force at the belay device is only loosely connected with the force on the climber or their gear except for the worst-case scenario, a factor two fall, where the force is directly on the belay device.

I'm fairly sure the tests they did included some dynamic testing as they had figures for rope slip which obviously make zero sense for a static pull.

 

You seem to be saying that you'd rather fall to your death (or serious injury — let's face it, they are the two most likely options if you go 30+m on many routes) than have the comparatively benign problem (in many places we practise climbing) of attracting or engineering rescue?

For me, in the scenario you describe, there's no contest. The case of not stopping because you've KO'd your belayer is an order of magnitude worse than the case of being in the position of being alive and well, but stuck. There will always be fringe cases — for example third-party rescue is not always close to hand in remote places — but I'd still rather be alive to be able to solve the problem than us both end up dead on a ledge halfway up the crag. And as others have pointed out, there are potential solutions to the problem. Especially if you've been a good scout and taken prusik loops and a knife.

As it happens though, I don't use an assisted belay device and neither do most of my partners. I'm not too worried about the risk in absolute terms. Again, there'll always be specific exceptions on specific routes or crags.

Agreed, once gear is placed, the force on the climber is higher than the force on the belayer and the more drag in the system the higher the force on the climber and the lower that on the belayer and their sum will approximate the force at the anchor/gear/bolt.

I has assumed the slippage rates would have come from a quasi static test in which the force was slowly increased until the braking force was overcome. However, without reading the report I'm in the dark!

This was one of the starting points for the CEN working group but despite some devices showing very similar results in this test (though in their rig the ABDs perform better and the tube devices worse comparably|), their drop tower results differed dramatically.

Still lots of work to be done!

I was in a socially distanced queue , so it was a guess, I did state ottomh.

Still 2 Kn is a lot more than 160kg, so I am sticking with my ATC -XP

Ha! I am an engineer with a vested interest so I'm afraid I get excited when I see the possibility of real world numbers/testing.

However, Petzl have demonstrated that 2kN is easily holdable with the a Reverso so how does that equate to Jim's 160/170kgf? I shall see what the CEN working group come up with.

That's why I love the klemheist, I nearly never have actual loops on but I hardly ever lead without a few slings.

Just in case it hasn't been mentioned, WC revo. One can climb on and it is less likely to lock up than a plate. But will lock when you pull that block. I often start up a route without the belayer having his/her hands on the device - until the first piece. I love this device, biggest breakthrough since the grigri.

PS. I have had an unconscious belayer. But on a bolted route (Verdon). The rope could not be pulled through her plate. The plate locked down without a hand to push if up and through. I Have fallen off a route and the plate locked without a hand on the rope - after 70ft - big twisted mess of rope. So I think you would be best with a Revo in the case you paint.

If you look at the graph , which only covers the low end of possible loadings, the Reverso , which is not dissimilar to an ATC-XP, comes out of it  fairly well.

I have reversos , but its nice to have in the back of your mind  when your leader is hurtling through thin air, that the XP came out tops.

hi David- do you use your Revo to bring up seconds / on multi pitch trad? If so, have you had any issues?

It needs to be redirected through a carabiner on the belay above you to work well, but in theory it's no issue. 

so help me out then. how does one self rescue when your belayer is KO'd and I am dangling in the air from a locked of ABD or otherwise locked belay device?

More easily than if you’d hit the floor.

Get back on the rock, with prussiks if necessary, build an anchor and go in direct. Untie, tie off the rope to the anchor, and then prussik down it to your belayer.

Literally wrote how higher in this thread, responding to you in fact. And I wasn't the only one either. This is outright rude you know, people don't spend their time compiling information for it to be ignored.

Tricky one isn't it?  Especially if you haven't had the forethought to bring a few prussiks and practice at using them.  Of course, it's still preferable to decking out I would have thought.  At least you might have a phone with you or other climbers around (or someone else who could help).  Plus people are often only unconscious (or otherwise incapacitated) for short periods of time.

I normally use a plate in guide mode to bring up seconds if I'm standing up. Plates, Revo, Grigri are all either dangerous or difficult to use to bring up seconds when standing IMHO. When sitting a Revo is ok, just like a plate. Hence I quite like just one Revo in the team, for lead belaying. A second plate for abseiling weighs the same as one carabiner.

I use a grigir to bring seconds up, via a redirect, however I don't find the revo is great for this - or top roping. The Revo is less "grippy" than most belay devices, which doesn't really go with the need to stack ropes etc. on a multipitch stance.

This makes no sense to me?

The Revo is designed to stop falling leaders, I think it needs to have the rope running at 4? meters per second before the auto lock kicks in. Whatever the speed , I don't think any second would appreciate accelerating to this velocity.

Getting back to looking at the graph, I noticed that the dead to live rope angle was tested at 135 degrees.

When belaying,  I always try to be in a position to be able to get the angle at 180 degrees, ie the maximum friction.

In fact , holding any leader fall , without going to 180, is probably looking for trouble.

Not wanting to encourage poor belaying and like you, I endeavour to get the dead rope to 180 degrees from the live rope but.....

The EN15151-3 working group has done a similar test to (what I imagine was) Jim's above but with a variable brake/dead rope angle and most of the assisted belay devices did well up to 90degrees with some performing well up to 10 degrees between the rope*! Some of the test videos are definitely turning my head to the benefits of ABDs (currently on a Pivot/Grigri depending on application).

*This was being looked at as continental countries still use the Italian hitch more than we do and a significant number of belay incidents have come from using the Italian hitch technique with a belay device.

Indeed, and part of the reason I tend to use a plate in guide mode on multipitch routes. However to be fair, the 4m/s is really a backup. The belayer should have held the fall by normal breaking. I'm guessing many second would appreciate knowing they can't just keep falling.

"I normally use a plate in guide mode to bring up seconds if I'm standing up. Plates, Revo, Grigri are all either dangerous or difficult to use to bring up seconds when standing IMHO." 

The following is a little more relevant to long multipitch, not the 70m multipitch which is the norm in England and Wales, because the longer the route the easier it is at some point to not be 100% concentrating.

When sitting on the top of Stanage, it is easy to sweep the hand back to lock the plate off. Plus one only has one thing to do, belay. The rope is also just being piled up on the ground. One kind of ends up sitting with the plate semi locked off - with the hand behind the plate. This means that even if there is a bit of slack in the rope, the breaks will come on quickly.

When standing, the plate will be hanging upside down. The break position is then to raise your hand. This is unpracticed and not wired in. The position is weak. It kind of feels like one is trying to mimic a T-Rex. Although in theory it is possible to keep the hand above the plate all day, we all end up relaxing and letting the hand fall below the plate - which then is nothing more than a pulley.

Add in that slack is more likely on such long routes (so what you might be trying to stop is a small lead fall speed which will burn if the hand is below the plate), the second often can't be seen, you will be carefully stacking the ropes over the anchor or through a sling, maybe eating a bar, then guidemode starts to make a lot of sense and add safety.

With the grigri, things are slightly different. The main issue is that it is a bloody pain to use when standing up to bring up a second. One can only take in a small amount of rope, one's back is bent over for 8 hours, one has to take in, then stack the rope - not do it all in on action. A redirect with a grigri solves this wonderfully.

If you would like more details and considerations, see my book.

All the best.