UKC

Several times now my wife and I have been into a outdoors shops both locally and various other areas in the U.K. and encountered the same experience.

Personally, I know what I want usually and only want help if I can’t physically find something. But it seems I always get approached by a member of staff offering help .  In fact one local store know me, but it still happens- maybe it’s because they think I’m a muppet 

My wife on the other hand never gets approached (when we wander separately) - quite rightly her nose is out out of joint. 
why does this still happen 

Personally, I don’t think my wife should enter and outdoor shop when I’m in there - she stops me buying stuff I don’t really need 🤣 

What are you wearing? If you're clad in UKC standard expensive approach shoes and hardshell worth as much as your car, while your wife is dressed like a normal human being, it might explain the disparity in treatment?

In reply to Stichtplate:Ooh, I hadn’t thought of that 🤣 but good point, you do see it, but nope, I’m not one of those punters 

I’ll wear her dress next time and see if it happens 😄

the opposite seems to happen in shops selling fabric, etc where the women (always women in my experience) behind the counter don't seem to realise than men can also sew. And if buying by post, the parcels seem to be addressed to Mrs/Ms regardless of name, so I've had several addressed to Mrs Doug much to the amusesnt of our postie.

The shop clearly see your wife as intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced and therefore not needing assistance.

Whereas they see you as a bumbling buffoon who is clueless and needs their hand holding from the moment they set foot in the door.

 My wife and me had to go to a hardware shop in the Highlands to buy cordless drills for work. The guy took me to one side explaining we should leave the 'little woman' out of the decision making, called her 'sweetheart' and tried to rip me off with 2 £400 hammer drills we didn't need.

We went somewhere else

In fairness, I might normally agree with you, but on 2 separate incidents when she wanted help with shoes and waterproof, the assistants were dismissive and in fact patronising.  
One of these is the local shop who know that I know what I’m talking about - 40 years of experience does count . 
we would have gone elsewhere, but necessity dictated. I really want to, and have always tried support the independent shop, rather than default to online.
Next time I go into a shop wearing my Gucci walking shoes, and Superdry waterproof, I’ll watch to see if it happen with others. 

 

A few years ago we went to Ellis Brigham to get a new pair of boots for the Alps. When my OH said she wanted some boots, there was comment about whether they were for dog walking! But when eventually she managed to get a B3 boot to look at, it had the crampon attached (as it was on display) and she took great pleasure in showing the member of staff how to remove these as they patently did not have a clue, perhaps proving nicely that he should not have been biased. He then went onto quiz her about winter climbing as he was going on a course in a few months! Hopefully that was a lesson, but I suspect not.

Although it is often a zoo at busy times, shops in the Lakes and North Wales have been much better.

I think you mean sexism, not the m word. It would be great if someone collated a black comedy themed  collection of climbing related sexism over the last 70 years, before we lose all those who experienced it. Even so, I  do think things are improving slowly.

Two of my favourites:

We don't stock women's plastic boots because women don't mountaineer. (Nottingham climbing shop early 90s)

Oh you're a woman!? Do you need help with the belay (at the top of the Idwall slabs, late 1990s)

The Pinnacle Club have some fabulous stories, often involving a white haired Angela Soper soling something hard after a sexist pointed out where the easy routes were.

An outdoor shop opened in Crewe town centre not so long ago. Can’t remember what it was called but had in big letters, front and centre: ‘ (shop name) where man and mountains meet’. It didn’t last long.

A friend of mine who climbs quite hard tells the tale of trying to buy some fairly aggressive shoes, and the male assistant repeatedly trying to steer her towards 'appropriate' entry level models.  Another friend who was with her clocked what was happening, and came bounding over with the recently published Anti Atlas guidebook: "Look, look, they used that photo of you on the E4!"

Apparently the service improved from that point.

omg I have a ton of these kind of stories

Not sexism, but there's one purveyor of running gear in Keswick where the staff's role seems to be talking to their mates and studiously ignoring the old fart who wants to actually purchase some shoes.

Maybe I should clothe myself head to toe in Inov8 kit to see if I can get in the clique?

I know this shop. 

I agree with the above that this is sexism not misogyny really, though clearly those two subtly different two things are of a kind with a blurry border between them.

A friend of friends of mine used to be a sales/marketing manager for a well known manufacturer/distributor of outdoor gear.  I remember a conversation at a climbing wall about 4 or 5 years ago when he was telling us that he'd been involved in the interviews for a new trainer.  (I can't remember the job title exactly, but it was a person who would mostly be visiting retail shops and keeping the staff up to speed on the features of their various products and wotnot.)

He said the shortlist for the job had come down to three people, two younger men and an older woman.  (It turns out the 'older woman' was pushing 40, the men in their late 20s early 30s.)  The woman was clearly the most qualified candidate apparently, but they'd hired one of the men anyway because she didn't represent "the image we're trying to project".  (To the staff of the shops presumably - he was asked about that and the answer was a bit vague but apparently the job didn't involve interacting with the public or the ultimate buyers of the stuff at all.)

The subject of job interviews came up in conversation because one of the others had just been interviewing for the first time and was talking about how weird it had felt to be on the other side of the desk.  He seemed genuinely quite surprised that any of the rest of us thought it was even a bit odd, let alone unacceptable.

When Stirlng had a Tiso (ok, so not a real outdoor shop, but it was the closest we had), I was looking for some winter boots and went in to see what they had. I couldn't see any, and wondered if it was just too early in the season, although they did have the men's ones in already. So I asked the assistant if they were getting some in soon. He said "Oh yes, we do have some there already", and took me over to see the 3 season leather boots. I said "sorry, I was actually after some winter mountaineering boots". He tried to assure me that 3 season boots were winter mountaineering boots. I showed him some men's ones (maybe Mantas, can't quite remember now) and explained which features I was requiring. "No, we don't stock women's ones like that". The internet is my friend for gear shopping!

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. "We don't sell any of those". "Because you don't stock any". "That's because we don't sell any..."

You would hope that retail outlets really do understand their market demographic. Not just their customer demographic. But it seems not...

Please share some of the best

Perhaps change you name to snubbed!

WTF is a ‘real’ outdoor shop??? 

I might be tempted to be annoying, and start to scatter display running shoes around and sit among them on the floor. 

Edit: A friend recently commented - 'The less you care, the freer you are', it seems apt for scattering shoes in protest.

It's the old name for a wild outdoor shop

Knowledgeable staff who sell what most of the people who regularly come in are looking to buy, and can talk about gear they don't sell towards being generally helpful, I suppose?

One that sells decent kit, not just fashion fleeces and accessory carabiners! 

The trouble is that they probably need to sell all the fashion stuff in order to stay in business and so sell "proper" stuff too.

Its only when your wife has been in to a car salesroom that you see proper sexism  in the sales process in retailers..........

Not a lifestyle shop?

Not a shop that sells white TNF Numpty down jackets for skiing?

I used the word misogyny, as it’s the word my wife used - she’s far more educated than I am, in fact I’m not sure what school was 🤣 

I posted the original comment on he behalf as she was, quite rightly hacked off. 

Seems the def of misogyny is along the lines of

“hatred or contempt for women or girls. It is a way of keeping women at a lower status than men. In other words, misogyny maintains and enforces sexism.” 
guess it depends on if you are the female or the observer !

Thought TNF down jackets were sold for the cinema, and the high  street. Can’t say I’ve seen a white one in ages - thankfully 

I'm not surprised it didn't last long. Crewe town centre has been dead for years, obliterated by the monstrosity that is the grand junction retail park and online shopping.

I’ve been in sales my whole career, and once saw a video of a car salesman talking to the bloke re an expensive car, ignoring the woman - only to find out she was paying. # pricesless 

And yet selling an expensive car is like......

So Tiso doesn’t sell Mountain Equipment, Haglofs, Mammut, Arc’teryx, DMM, Grivel, Scarpa, Petzl etc etc etc?

Depends on the context, but personally I have no issues with using the term man (as in human). Infact if I'm honest, I find the obsessive use of gender neutral terms rather annoying.

Yes, men are also perfectly welcome in “country clothing” shops.

Isn't it a play on the classic book about Himalayan exploration "When Men and Mountains Meet"?

I find it pretty jaw-dropping every time I go into our local Go Outdoors that they have a huge banner up advertising the teenage fashion brand Tottie, and that the brand itself is actually allowed to exist.  From the banner I'd guess it's aimed at the horsey set, so perhaps they have a different mindset about the use of a name which as far as I can see is wholly inappropriate.

I'm always amazed that fcuk is allowed to exist.

And "Pretty Little Thing"?

Keep looking for my sort of a brand....

"Old Grey Dull Bloke" 

or "Bit Crappy and Shapeless, but Cheap"

I think that might actually be the brand of the men's clothes line at the supermarket where I chuck  six-packs of socks and pants and the odd pair of trousers in the trolley with my value pasta and £4.50 wine.

Ronhills4u.co.uk

At least she doesn’t have to mumble “I’m just looking” while trying to get away from an overly attentive shop assistant. Silver lining… On a serious note, all things being equal, this does seem to suggest sexism.

Struggling to see the connection between the preceding comments and Japanese soup, as per your thread title... It just seems to have developed into a row about women and stuff? 

I remember Graham Tiso's shop in Edinburgh in the 1960s. He ran a REAL outdoor shop! What a lovely guy, who most certainly knew what he was talking about. It was by far my favourite outdoor shop which apart from Government Surplus shops were few and far between in those days. I always made a point of visiting Tiso whenever I was on climbing trip to Scotland. I was very sad when I learnt many years later that he had passed away.

For the love of god could someone please tell me where the PRETEND outdoors are? I’ve been walking, climbing and cycling for decades and now I’m worried it’s only been in the pretend outdoors. Are the real outdoors different? Are they better than the pretend outdoors?

I just won’t be able to sleep tonight……..

Generally, the sort of places where you can hire a wild swimming guide... Or anywhere featuring posters of Bear Grylls. 

You need to go to a decent equipment retailer and buy yourself a top of the range real outdoor sleeping system.
Apparently, there is a super good 'Wild' option available for those adventurous souls that venture beyond sight of their car.

Fairy nuff then.  If that's the way she perceived it I'm happy to wind my neck in and stand (sit) corrected.

I had a similar incident in Cycle Surgery in Leeds. I was perusing their carbon fibre Pinarellos when the shop assistant came to see if I needed any help. I explained I was looking to upgrade my road bike and he directed me over to the hybrids and basketed step throughs in the women's section! Needless to say, I got my nice new carbon/ultegra roadie elsewhere...

You might get a discount if you also purchase a carrying system and a hydration system while you are at it.

Do you mean getting a sixpack and paying the 20p or whatever it is for a plastic bag to carry it? Can’t go into the real wild outdoors without a sixpack.

When I used to work in an outdoor shop (Cotswold Outdoor) we used to greet everyone with a "Good Morning/Good Afternoon, do you need any help?" as a "Hello, we are here if you need us". For the most part guys were more likely to strike up a conversation and have a good geek out about a bit of kit with me, but that isn't to say it was exclusively men.

Although we had plenty of male customers that wouldn't want to discuss kit with the females in the shop, and one of them was a bigger gear geek than I was.

The stuck-up nose judgement in specialist shops is pretty equal opportunities, I think. I've been essentially fobbed off in some shops, even when the shop was empty. Little do they know I could buy the entire stock of the shop, even if I do look a bit scruffy.

I remember visiting a fancy cycle shop somewhere outside Guildford, looking for a decent full sus bike. The bloke really didn't seem interested in even showing me any of the bikes he had in stock, not even saying "well I've got this and this", even though the shop was empty, and looked like it had been empty all day. I bought my Epic Expert carbon elsewhere, obviously.

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. "We don't sell any of those". "Because you don't stock any". "That's because we don't sell any..."

You would hope that retail outlets really do understand their market demographic. Not just their customer demographic. But it seems not...

This is an extremely hard cycle to brake. I do purchasing for our outdoor shop and as much as I would love to stock a wide selection of B2's and B3's, if we're not selling them they are wasting away on the stock shelf and we have to discount them/scrap them after a couple of seasons. Boots are like cars. It doesn't really make sense to stock a wide selection of boots for the handful of people asking about them on a yearly basis.

Mountaineers don't really seem to realise sometimes what an incredible niche market they are in an area without proper mountains (I live in the Netherlands).

In reply to JoshOvki:

Although we had plenty of male customers that wouldn't want to discuss kit with the females in the shop, and one of them was a bigger gear geek than I was.

This. The sexism often goes both ways. I have had many instances where male customers did not take my female co-workers at all seriously because they were women/girls and therefore obviously completely useless when it comes to outdoor gear advice... This truly is infuriating.

On the other hand if you do want help and for some reason you're invisible to staff.

Just keep picking things off shelves, sniff them and put them back again. Faster than you would believe someone will appear asking if need any help.

I think we all have stories like this. About 3 years ago I trailed in and out of every Keswick shop looking for women's winter mountaineering trousers. Sorry, pants. 

In one I was directed to lightweight thin summer trousers, We burst out laughing. in another just 1 Paramo pair, in another a shake of the head "oh, we don't do womens in that type" and in another "i think you'll find we only have athletic (ie tiny) sizes". 

My OH was aghast at the attitude of shop assistants towards me. 

In the end I bought the superb Decathlon winter trousers online. 

V12!

I wouldn't mind so much if I was buying something really unusual rather than just climbing shoes or rucksacks or whatever. But it comes from having a non-outdoor husband with me, outdoor shop assistants will always look at him when recommending something after I have asked.

In my younger days, my climbing 'mentor' was an older bloke and in every climbing hut everyone would assume that I was his daughter dragged away for a weekend.

More common is a less obvious sexism that women have to put up with all the time, e.g. I was seconding a route at Tremadog somewhere, on the route next door were a couple of lads. They were at the belay and watched my (male) partner lead the pitch with no comment. As soon as I started climbing they commented the whole way up, telling me the next hold and how to position myself etc until eventually I said, ok lads, I really like to just work it out on my own, do you mind not commenting. Then of course later on I got a bit stuck but of course had to sort it out for myself and ended up looking a bit of an idiot. The point is that people often treat women differently without meaning any harm, or even realising.

A 'proper' outdoor shop should do more than just stock the kit, otherwise Amazon is a 'proper' outdoor retailer. 

I’ve bought from numerous outdoor shops, including; V12, Tiso, Nevisport, Ellis-Brigham, Keswick Boot Company, Taunton Leisure, Braemar Mountain Sports…..the list is extensive. And in every one I’ve had excellent service.

I can’t stand elitist outdoor shop snobbery that surrounds the idea that somehow the bigger chains selling exactly the same gear as small ‘specialist’ stores aren’t ‘real’ outdoor shops. It’s as bad as paying more for something in Harvey Nicks, just so you can say you bought it in Harvey Nicks. 

I’m guessing that a reason most outdoor shops no longer employ many outdoory people is because the outdoory people are all busy being employed outdoors as guides or instructors. Instead of being stuck in a shop. You couldn’t do that in the good old days. 

Posters like girlymonkey also miss the point that the modern generation have benefitted enormously with the commercialisation of the outdoors. We would all still be wearing those god awful wooly balaclavas if it wasn’t for the commercialisation of outdoor gear.

Yes, I do see that. That was behind my demographic comment. 

It is certainly true that many outdoor shops, chains and independents have narrowed their ranges and it can be a real join when you find a shop that stocks a really wide range of specialist items.

One of the things that I dislike amongst a lot of the chains is web only items. I like to try stuff on, I’ll go to a shop to do that and I’ll even pay a slight premium for the privilege, but if you are a bricks and mortar retailer that will only sell me certain goods online, I’ll probably go elsewhere. If I have no choice, but online I’ll be totally driven by price.

I recently wanted to buy a new 30l rucksack, I went in to a major city centre with multiple outdoor retailers. Despite have a wide range on their websites, they had very limited options in store, often with different retailers carrying the same models.

I don't know if this was definitely sexism or just a numpty, but I went into Ellis Brigham looking for a pair of sunglasses for my first trip on glaciers. I was the only customer and I was quickly approached by a young male assistant who I asked for advice. He didn't have a clue and left me to it. After a bit of Googling I wanted to try some on and so asked the nearest assistant to open the case, and she asked me what I was after. It turned out that she had loads of glacier and mountaineering experience and was really useful. So why the f*** didn't young bloke who knew nothing think to point me to the store's mountaineering expert? Did he not realise that his colleague actually knew about the stuff they were selling? It bugged me for ages. 

I don't think it's snobbery. I'll go to Decathlon or Millets for anything they they can do. But when it comes to specialist gear I want to go to a shop where they know about what they are selling and can offer good advice, not a supermarket where I have to work it out for myself. And I know that running a shop like that is more expensive, so I'm prepared to pay extra for it.

I do object to the chain outdoor shops that charge specialist prices but don't employ anyone who can offer the advice though. The staff in the Cotswolds stores I go in are all outdoorsy and helpful, but they all seem to know less than me, so nowhere near being an expert.

I wonder if some of that is the fault of the brands themselves? My understanding is that the premium brands refuse to be associated with lesser brands and so you always see the same premium brands in certain stores.

Possibly not, but it just annoys me that hundreds of perfectly decent people are lumped together as being unhelpful when I’ve experienced anything but that. Grrr

Whether or not they are decent people isn’t really the issue. I’ve on many occasions found shop staff who are certainly decent, friendly and keen to offer advice, but unfortunately don’t have much depth of knowledge to offer (or indeed tell me things I know to be untrue). 

That’s not specific to outdoor ships mind you!

Reminds me of the time me and my wife went down to the Carmargue for my birthday. One evening we picked what looked like a very nice restaurant but it was quite old school when we got there (monogramed plates on the table FFS) but we stuck with it because it was 30C outside with mosquitos and this was inside with the a/c on. 

They gave us menus but my wife's menu had no prices on it. Aside from the fact that we have a shared bank account, she earns significantly more than me anyway - but somehow they assumed I was out treating her. 

Maybe they were forewarned and gave you the prices so she couldn’t stop you from ordering the lobster?

It's a tough line for bricks and mortar shops to walk. I struggled when I was looking for a full sus MTB. Very few come in a small enough size to begin with, and even where they exist it's rare that a shop will have an XS size in stock to test ride and are loathe to order something in when it then might not suit. In the end I got lucky and found the bike I was looking for (based on a very short friend having one) in stock about an hour's drive from home. Even more luckily for me it was the previous year's model marked down by 20% but that just proves your point - the only place with a XS frame had it in the sale because there's just not that many 5'2" MTBers out there.

I've also had the same problem looking for higher end women's cycling gear in shops. They're fine if you're after Altura commuting kit but it used to be a nightmare trying to find bibshorts etc. I don't find climbing gear to be as hard, though I don't do high altitude stuff that requires specialist kit. But on the whole, climbing is much less male dominated than cycling and so there's a much better selection for women.

The title of the book is actually a quote from William Blake: "Great things are done when men and mountains meet/This is not done by jostling in the street."  However, unlike many of the English Romantics, I'm not sure Blake ever came face to face with a real mountain.

I wish I’d known when I was at school that Blake hadn’t set foot on a mountain, it might have given more interest to “Jerusalem” which was our school song. As it was, we were forced to learn and recite the words as punishment, culminating in a supergroup of miscreants having to publicly sing / play it at the end of term. Because that’s what poetry is for. 

Indeed, have had a similar experience looking for a mountain bike - I’m even shorter than you.

First shop I tried, I explained what I was looking for and the (male) assistant walked me over to the shopper bikes, which were all too big for me anyway then just sort of wandered off.  I was wondering if his lugs were painted on or if it was just the type of deafness induced by a small woman in a floral blouse pushing a baby in a pram who couldn’t possibly be looking for the sort of bike which won’t fall apart when cycled off road.

Anyhow, I went elsewhere and found a Specialized Hard Rock in a 13 inch frame in the previous years colours which has served me and now my 3 daughters, well for years. 

I totally understand why shops won’t have bikes in non-standard sizes in stock but surely a “sorry we don’t have that in stock, let me see what is available that could be ordered etc” would have been the best response.  

Sking is usually outdoors,  isn't it ?

I have spent a miserable winter working in Tiso. I was the only person there who ever even ventured off tarmac. The manager put me in the trail shoe section, not the climbing or camping kit. I was the only one who used the kit and could speak with experience! 

And the women's kit they stocked was mostly white fluffy fleeces! Not much use in the outdoors.

This is quite sad. Graham Tiso was responsible for supplying the kit for Bonington's first Everest SW face expedition in 1972.

Yes, I remember it as a kid and it always seemed like a well respected shop. Now it is aimed at rich dog walkers! It's a real shame.

This whole thread reminds me of the "HiFi Shop" sketch from Not the Nine O'Clock News. 

(Younger readers may have to use Google)

I never tire of Smith and Jones and NTNOCN.

Fair enough. And now, AFAIK, you work outdoors, as opposed to stuck in a shop.

As I said earlier these shops are a success. They may not be a shop you like, but they’re perfectly describable as real outdoor shops. You said yourself you use the internet. Doesn’t everybody now? So why do I need an expert in a shop when I can get infinitely more reviews from the screen in my hand?

Just because an outdoor shop doesn’t have at least one employee who climbs or kayaks or MTBs etc, doesn’t mean it’s not a ‘real’ outdoor shop.

IMO.

They soon stop being white... my point, really... bought by those who will only be seen in apres ski bars or la Folie Douce. And given to Oxfam at the end of the holiday because there's a bit of grubbiness on the cuff.

How the English Department must have loved that enlightened approach!

Is that like skiing, but only using one eye? Sounds dangerous.

No word of a lie, it was an English teacher who was running it. Admittedly his main calling was as a PE teacher and he just happened to have been in the wrong place when they were an English teacher short.

Try ageism, I'm 68, overweight, grey beard etc. Rock up at our local indoor supercross training track with my 17yr old son and a 450 KTM so the pimply youth taking the money asks "beginner or expert." "He's the beginner, I'll ride with the experts." The youth looked kinda miffed.

I occasionally ride with a pensioner who rides a 650 Vstrom. The younger sports bike crowd get very upset when they finally catch up to him at the next brew stop. He is 70 years old and has raced bikes all over the world since he was about 14.

How do you know the experience of the reviewers? Thinking about Rock & Run, and Outside, and the shop at the Foundry, they've always had staff who've done different kinds of climbing and outdoor stuff, enough to know what they're talking about, things can come up in conversation which wouldn't while browsing online, or one can be corrected about something not googled about (from thinking that it's correct, since we don't google about things which 'we already know'). 

I don’t. I’m criticising girlymonkey’s stance.

Girlymonkey appears to have worked in Tiso's, and experienced the poor use of staff experience by the management.

Have you worked in Tiso's, too? It that why you seem unhappy about criticism of these shops?

Yeah. You get some odd looks asking for loom state calico to make toiles...

And best not to talk about when I bought my sewing machine; silence of the lambs was just out, and I think that may have influenced the reaction...

Misogyny is hatred of women; more applicable to incels. Sexism is more applicable to outdated attitudes and cultural stereotyping: women can't drive/climb, men can't knit etc

Words lose their power if used incorrectly.

Abuse of women/wolf whistling etc is misogynistic, because it is controlling behaviour. Giving up your seat for a "lady" is sexist because it makes assumptions about gender roles. 

What, not a single employee who has an interest in the outdoors? 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion but that's got to be a v minority view.  Not just for an outdoor shop but any kind of specialist retailer, like a local bike shop that doesn't have any actual cyclists among the staff.  A 'real' shop of any kind has staff who know something about the stock imo.

A healthy shop, especially in urban areas, should have a good mix of personnel. Having only hardcore outdoor freaks is as off-putting to a subset of your customers as is having none. 

Ignoring a female customer in a shop sits somewhere between the two.  It isn't just making assumptions about gender roles, there is also some element of contempt in there as a result of which she is provided with an inferior service to that offered to male customers in the same shop.

Imo, it absolutely is controlling behaviour for someone working in a bike shop to be asked about full-sus mountain bikes and steer the customer towards step-through shoppers with a pretty little basket on the handlebars.

I thought it more sexism than misogyny too (and commented to that effect above) but the distinction between those things is rather blurry.  Dunno about you, but not having been there if Mrs Chewie65 herself describes it as misogyny I'm not going to be the bloke who mansplains to her that she's using the word incorrectly.

You need to see what some VMCC (Vintage Motorcycle Club) people go like on their bikes. Not only the riders, but the bikes are old as well - one of them got pulled for speeding in a 70 (well over the limit) on a nearly 100 year old bike. Lucky bugger got away with a "show your documents" only, as the coppers were so impressed. Thing is, these guys (and gals) have been riding the bikes for so long they're almost a part of the bike.

There is quite a difference between having at least some staff who understand the kit and having the shop staffed entirely by wildly enthusiastic 'freaks' I think.

You may be right if the 'hardcore outdoor freaks' in question only have one gear and are 'hardcore' all the time.  Personally, I don't think such a person would be well suited to working in a shop anyway.

You're making a false equivalence, I think.  Your hypothetical freaks' problem isn't an excess of knowledge about the gear and enthusiasm for their own hobby, it's a lack of empathy and willingness to understand what the customer wants and needs.

Giving up your seat for a "lady" is sexist because it makes assumptions about gender roles. 

What about a pregnant one?

Planet X had a shop in Edinburgh for a while. We went in as Mrs 65 was struggling to find good women’s cycling clothing. After trawling the entire, quite big shop without finding anything, I asked a young guy, “Do you have a women’s clothing section?” He laughed, shook his head and said, “No,” as if I’d asked a naive question. 
That shop didn’t last long, another female friend who bought a bike from them (a mans bike) still refers to the staff as “The vegetables.”

Brilliant idea, people will trust hardcore sales staff because they clearly know what they're talking about.

I will contact my local Millets immediately, so the manager can make sure all staff loudly whoop and use phrases like "these walking socks are so sick bro", "this flimsy gear carabiner is totally legit"  "you *Have* to get these RAD walking poles, to conquer walking inside Trefriw Woollen Mill". I can see sales going through the roof, I'll ask 5% commission for the idea (failing to credit you in any way) and I'll be rich rich rich!

If you go back through the thread you’ll see the gist is about what constitutes the ‘real’ outdoors. That includes from E11 to walking the dog. IMO.

Thanks, I do like to think of myself as having very individual views.

Surely you just ask rather than assume.

It was a poor attempt at lightning the mood, but I have found that asking people whether they’re pregnant or not doesn’t always end well!

Asking women if they're pregnant won't always go well...

Oh, please!  If than actually happens as described (and I’m not saying it never does) than the shop assistant is an idiot and needs some training on people skills, but to call it controlling behaviour or misogyny  is nonsense and devalues those terms.

Just in case, for the avoidance of any doubt, you don't ask if they're pregnant!!!

Think I'd only do it if it was obviously pregnancy otherwise as you and gazhbo say, doesn't always go well.

I've found this too with road biking stuff.

Its just poor selling technqiue and lack of training more than anything else. A good and competently trained sales person will easily be able to empathise with any gender for any requirements whether it be technical or not.It is  not difficult to be taught and to understand   a few basics in this day and age.

In most cases poor selling skills are  just a reflection that it is not a good shop.

I'm just an old teacher mate. I agree there is  a continuum from the horrific misogyny of Jake Davison to the inappropriateness of a retail worker who calls a man "Sir" and a woman "sweetheart". But I would still save "minogynous" for the more serious and dangerous end. 

Giving up your seat for a "lady" is sexist because it makes assumptions about gender roles. 

Giving up your seat for a person who needs it is non controversial. 

A real outdoor shop allows dogs inside, ideally it would have a shop dog.

I like what you did there 👍🏻