UKC

So I'm in the market for a new waterproof. I've been through Goretex, Event, and lately Pertex Shield. I tend to have one jacket on the go at any one time and it gets used for everything, from walking the dog and going to the shops through to alpine rock routes and European Ice fall climbing. I am so damned bored of the materials used failing, and just not being waterproof after a couple of years. And yeah I am rubbish are aftercare and it's supposed to make it all better and whatnot. Anyway, I see Klattermusen do an EtaProof jacket which looks the business. It's not megabucks because it's on sale at the moment and I'm wondering if anybody has experience with them. To me it seems Ventile style fabrics would be hardwearing and more resistant to user abuse than other technical fabrics. Something with extreme breathability, but which is heavier and more durable is a compromise I would be willing to make at the moment...

Considered Paramo?

I guess they need regular reproofing, but more forgiving of rips and general abuse? 

Well I suppose that is an option although always thought it looks like a bag of spanners, and the styles strike me as singularly unsuitable for skiing with. I know plenty who rave about them though. What is the aftercare like? I assume you've got to be fairly diligent with washing and reproofing them?

The newer paramo stuff is a lot less box shaped, I have a love/hate relationship with my smock though.  Sometimes it's brilliant, sometimes it's not and I can see no rhyme or reason to it.  Aftercare isn't too bad, I typically reproof at the start of the season and that sees me through.

If you're looking at ventile type fabrics; hill trek in Aboyne do their own ranges of jackets in Ventile, double ventile and anthology fabrics that might be of interest and can tailor the cut etc to suit.

https://hilltrek.co.uk/clothing/jackets/

Extra credit to them as well for standing up to NTS a couple of years ago when they tried to take them to court for using "Braeriach" as a jacket name!

Cheers!

Stu

Have a look at Cioch's website. They do MTM gear which uses the same paramo lining, but, have a good range of colours  - and the fit is perfect. Never let me down.

I used to have - old - Survival Aids Ventile jacket. It worked OK to a degree, but, once wet it went stiff and then took ages to dry. I've often toyed with the idea of another ventile jacket: just don't think they are good for general use. OK in cold dry conditions.

One had Ventile back in the day when it was better than nothing, when Goretex appeared it was binned. Still my choice when things get grim, my motorcyle gear is 3 layer and works, my Event climbing stuff works a bit!

Used to have a Survival Aids Arctic Ranger and loved that coat.
Practicality wise it perhaps wasn’t the best fabric for year round use.

Even the double ventile wasn’t fully waterproof especially at the shoulders. It was prone to tears too and abrasion resistance wasn’t great.

If it’s a hardwearing waterproof that won’t rip and is reproofable, at the expense of breathability, then a Barbour is hard to beat.

it’s horses for courses and if you have too many courses then you need more horses.

I wear my Paramo jacket skiing, and whilst I might not look especially cool, it does the job without a problem, whether I'm in a blizzard/white-out or late season sun.

I wash it and reproof it every couple of months - just stick it in the machine with tech wash etc and it's done.

As a long time paramo hater I feel I should warn you about the perils of heavy, leaky, boil in the bag clothing.

I could rant for a few paragraphs but I think I got the main points in the first sentence. Just say no 

OK, so give me your suggestion Dave.... by the way, sorry I've not been in touch about climbing as I've been busy packrafting!

Thanks for all the other answers by the Klattermussen gear. What I have found is not from climbers in particular so it does make me question it quite hard...

Tbh I haven't found any genuine all purpose jacket, but I did get to find out what doesn't work for me and paid far too much for the privilege.

I might start looking again soon as my heavy duty goretex is EOL but I think there are too many contradictory requirements in play.

Right now I tend to run a heavy duty goretex type thing for bad weather, a buffalo strictly for sub zero temp and a light weight, cheap, disposable  waterproof for alpine routes where I'm not expecting trouble. This is not ideal.

I'm thinking of just investing in an umbrella.

Extra credit to them as well for standing up to NTS a couple of years ago when they tried to take them to court for using "Braeriach" as a jacket name!

The disputed jacket name was "Glencoe' other than that you're spot on.

I have a Hilltrek ventile windshirt, a bit weighty compared with my synthetic windproof, but very effective at cutting windchill. It resists showers better than the synthetic, but will eventually wet out and leak if the rain lasts long enough, and when it does, it takes a lot longer to dry.

Nothing's perfect for all conditions - sad but true.

I love love love my Klättermusen Einride (which is the one I'm assuming your looking at) but I wouldn't dare call it a waterproof. If you're looking for something to withstand epic downpours you are going to be disappointed. This is really meant as a Scandinavian active winter outer layer. 

If you are looking for something that you can wear 80 per cent of the time to save wear and tear on an actual waterproof they are amazing. The material is comfortable, breathable, windproof, water resistant, super hard wearing. Klättermusen's design and attention to detail is great. 

If I would have to pick one non-waterproof to wear for everything this would be it (and I own close to ten softshells of various brands and purpose). But do NOT expect single layer (or even double layer for that matter) Ventile/Etaproof to act as a proper waterproof for Dutch/British conditions. 

Modern jackets require a lot more aftercare than the jackets of old due to the absence of PFCs that helped to provide a far more durable DWR.

This doesn't appear to be talked about much by any of the brands, presumably because none of them want to admit that their products don't perform as well as they used to, but the upshot is that we are - if we want our waterproof jackets to continue performing - going to need to take a lot more care of them going forward.

That said, it doesn't sound like DWR is your main problem - it's the jacket falling apart. Washing should (at least in theory) help with this, as all of the mud, dust, sweat and whatever else gets into the jacket will take its toll. 

As I always say to people: you wash a £30 jumper every time it gets dirty, so why not a £300 jacket?

p.s. I'm aware this doesn't address the issue of ventile, but figured it was a relevant point - plus not one that's talked about as often as it should be. Aftercare, after all, is about as unsexy as the outdoor industry gets...

I suspect that this is about the size of it. So I guess the real point is that I need to segment my usage more and save my waterproofs for when it's actually raining. I've historically used them as a catch all and worn them for everything all the time. I am probably expecting too much and the last three (two events and a pertex shield) I didn't pay very much for so I should probably not whine too much. I guess the point is that for mu usage, well, deep winter it's going to be dry mainly unless I plug in an ice screw and get a shower. Walking the dog, well I don't USUALLY do that if it's bucketing down, I wait until it's only raining. Wales I don't do so much of anymore. Dolomites in the summer, when it rains heavily you need to put something on and stay still until it stops. So maybe what I'm really looking for is a lightweight smock with helmet compatible hot which is cheapish and expendible, but which I only use when it's proper raining, and another mostly waterproof shell which I can use in the winter and on daily dogwalks which will keep the worst off? Oh and a paddling jacket... and some new boots and waterpoof trousers, and ropes and cams, an ankle replacement, a personal trainer to stop me from being so weak (that's not my missus because what the hell does she know)...

Thanks, that's really helpful Yes it was the Einride, it's £200 at the moment which is really not that bad if it last well and can take some abuse. My other softshells are also knackered, although I still use them regularly, my favourite was my old mountain hardwear one and for the life of me I don't know why they stopped doing them - it was ace! Is the Einride quite bulky? You think it would be suitable for euro water ice?

Yes you are right, I know I should take more care of my kit. That said I've washed my pertex shield a few times recently after biking trips and the thing leaks like a sieve after 2.5 years use. The other day I went out in horrendous rain as we were camping and within 2 minutes I could feel water running down my neck, so I'm thinking that that's more than just a dwr EOL... nah what am I saying, I'll just keep wearing and kidding myself that it'll keep me dry next time...

There's fewer things more dissatisfying that going out on a wet day wearing a waterproof and still getting wet through.

My take on Pertex Shield is that it's nice and lightweight, pretty waterproof, benefits from being cheaper than GoreTex, but it's noway near as durable - or as waterproof. Despite its obvious drawbacks (price being one of them) GoreTex is still the best that we've got: Pro if you're after durability, Performance if you're after an all-rounder.

In terms of looking after your kit, don't worry - I'm just as guilty as the next person, although I have got better in recent years. Buying Nikwax and Grangers in bulk helped, as the skinflint in me never liked spending £8 a pop on those small bottles!

You think it would be suitable for euro water ice?

To be honest I haven't got much experience yet ice climbing. I might take it on the trip I'm planning for this winter just to find out how it performs. 

I have another jacket which might be interesting for you, it's also Scandinavian. The Lundhags Mylta. It's a hybrid between a tough threelayer waterproof membrane over the yolk, shoulders, large part of the sleeves and the hood, and a polycotton mix over the body. Mixed with a bit of stretch in strategic places for movability. 

I have found myself grabbing this on days that didn't quite look downpour free but also not completely miserable and it has worked well for me. It wets through on the polycotton but then again it's on the areas least likely to catch a lot of rain. 

I had an early Goretex Pro, an ME one, I think it's an Ogre? Literally the worst of the lot. After I bought I swore to never buy Gore again, only trouble is they are all almost as shite as each other! You're probably right, nikwax in bulk...

Because everything I've ever seen about washing these jackets talks about using special washing products, rinsing the machine free of normal detergents first etc etc.

If I believed I could bung it in with my normal 40 degree wash I probably would. Instead I am given  the general impression that it's a hugely risky operation where the slightest misstep will instantly destroy the thing.

This is an exaggeration I think. Especially modern monomaterial polyester membranes are quite easy to care for, almost as easy as your normal clothing. PTFE membranes such as GTX take a bit more of a careful approach but it's not like it will be destroyed instantly if you get it a bit wrong. 

It's not exactly rocket science though is it? Yes, you need something suitable to wash it with, but that's not exactly hard to resolve - it's a 50/50 choice between Nikwax and Grangers.

In terms of rinsing, I've never actually done this and have always had good results, although I have - on occasions - given the tray/dispenser a good wash beforehand (depending on how dirty it is).

As per my sentiments to Mike, we're dealing with a hypothetical £300 jacket here (could be more, could be less): if you're unwilling to invest a minimal amount of time/effort into aftercare then I'd say you're willingly wasting the money you spent on the jacket in the first place. 

For what it's worth, I don't find the process of washing/proofing my jackets particularly exhilarating, but I do appreciate the benefits when I'm out and I genuinely think it has a positive impact on durability too. As such, it's worth the effort in my eyes.

Nothing is totally waterproof once you accept that then life's much easier. I have a lightweight Montane Pertex jacket and over-trousers for summer (relatively cheap and if I get 2 yrs usage I'm happy) and Paramo (Jacket and smock very good but trousers are 'pants' a lot of the time) for winter. I accept that if I'm walking for a few or several hours in the rain I'm going to get wet end of.

What? 40°?! Have you not been paying attention for the past decade? Only seal-clubbers and sociopaths wash things at that temperature anymore

It's the only way I can get the blood off my sealskin waders

Well not quite but close - 

https://www.fishermansclothing.co.uk/commercial-fishing-industry-c-32/

The quest for lightweight and breathability in outdoor clothing has seemingly trumped water resistance. 

Good point. Mrs Ridge rides in a PU fishing jacket.

Hi Mike,

I have been having the same conversation with myself about fabrics. I also have been looking at ventile, I used it many years ago and my memory was, hard wearing, mega wind proof, and very rain resistant. My only concern now is the weight . It can get heavy when wet. But possibly a price worth paying for sustainability. 

I've had a single layer ventile jacket for everyday & casual hiking for about five years now. It has lasted well, keeps the wind off completely, and keeps all but heavy rain off. When it wets out, it's heavy and takes all day to dry.

Have a look at Tilak, made in Czech Republic; mine is the Loke, but I am not too keen on the roll-away hood so would consider the Odin if I was buying again: https://www.tilak.cz/en/eshop/jackets?tags=60-35--63

I had a ventile jacket from Hilltrek (Aboyne) which I used for fieldwork in NE Scotland. Good most of the time as wind & showerproof and hardwearing but not really waterproof in heavy rain and took ages to dry once wet. The jacket was also quite heavy - OK for working (mostly plant recording & vegetation surveying) as I wasn't walking very fast.

On a slightly different note, those complaining about Goretex, etc should spend some time in the pre-Goretex jackets we had such as Peter Storm or Henri-Lloyd - still remember condensation which would then freeze while belaying in winter. Goretex for all its problems is a great improvement.

I had actually been looking at the Odin and it looks like a really nice piece of kit! When you say heavy rain, what are talking about? Scotland heavy? Thunderstorm in the alps heavy? What most people think is heavy?

Has anybody here got one of the Rab KInetic jackets? I'm wondering if this as a backup for a ventile could work rather well - ventile for 90% of the time when it's light to medium rain and then pull out the Kinetic to put on over the top if it really pishes down?

The problem with Ventile in a climbing jacket is that it leaks at pressure points.  However, it is pretty tough compared to most membrane outers and breathes well. I think a ventile jacket with double layers on shoulders and arms would be fine. So what if it gets heavy and stiff when wetted out?  I guess you could argue that in extreme survival conditions it's similar to denim jeans and you'll get hypothermia and die, but if the alternative is a thin non-waterproof membrane jacket which gets your inner layers wet that's a moot point.

....and given that fishermen work up just as much of a head of sweat steam the breathability thing is a bit of a non-argument as well.  I wear Grundens PU dungarees for wet scrambling with my scouts and don't suffer sweat condensation because the air can flow through them well.  The material lasts forever, my kids are wearing the Guy Cotten waterproofs I had as a kid 40 years ago.

If you're considering both the Einride and the Odin, please go for the former. Not to say that the Odin is a terrible piece of kit but the fit and attention to detail on the Einride is much better, plus its design is much more climber friendly (if you'd consider doing that in Ventile, I certainly would under certain weather conditions).

I own both the Einride and the Odin and find myself grabbing the Einride much more often. About the only thing the Odin is better at than the Einride is layering as its fit is a bit more boxy. But its hood is much smaller. 

Re the kinetic

I have one, I like it... Though I see it filling a slight different role than full hardshell with a very high hydro static head but lower breathability... The kinetic is supposed to be less waterproof but more breathable and I can vouch for the better breathability... I've used mine for running and walking mostly and particularly for running the breathability is great... But I've never probably used it for more than a couple of hours in moderate rain, for which the waterproofness was fine...I don't know if I'd trust it for full on all day awful conditions... Also the dwr didn't last long

Ha thanks, I just posted another post about the kinetic. My thinking is that by pairing ventile which is nearly waterproof with another layer which is an emergency full (albeit not as full as gore) layer, I'll end up with a flexible and really breathable combo, with the ventile being a go suit, for exercising hard in, and the Kinetic in the bag until it rains more heavily...

Buying an older Goretex XCR (pre more greenly produced but less durable fabric) jacket from ebay could be a plan?

Washing your waterproof jacket is simple.

Use soap flakes, or liquid soap flakes. One major manufacturer of quality outdoor gear recommended it (can't remember which one, I guess Nikwax didn't pay them enough). I think there is a belief that Techwash is just plain liquid soap. 

Nikwax waterproofing liquid is better value if you buy 5 litres at a time. It also goes in the washing machine. 

We do this with all our waterproofs, insulated jacket, Seasalt parka, cagoules from Trespass.

I've got a nylon windproof shirt that I treat as well to hold off a bit more water.

It's just a case of using a washing machine. You can waste time on internet forums while the cycle is running...

I reckon you need 2 jackets. One for serious outdoorsy stuff and one for dog, shops, pub, etc. If the ventile doesn't work out for climbing it will probably be a great everything else jacket and you can get another 'proper' waterproof for climbing.