UKC

Heading to the Chamonix area for two months next summer. I’ll be there from the start of July and would really like to do my first alpine north face. 
 

I know that kind of time isn’t ideal for conditions these days but does anyone have any recommendations of something that could be good? 
 

id rather something mixed / snowy than a full on rock route. 
 

thanks 

In reply to jcoup:

Frendo Spur is a good candidate.  Technically, if the Rognon is included, it's on a par with the Walker Spur but because it is significantly less remote it gets a lower grade.

Al

In reply to jcoup:

Tour Ronde. 

In reply to jcoup:

If you want a small easy N Face, what about the N Face of the Petit Verte. Quite a long walk in though as the top bin at Grand Montets is shut

Steve 

In reply to jcoup:

Interested to know why I got a dislike for my suggestion but I do seem to have a dislike stalker Tour Ronde is a good call, there are also several routes on the Triangle of Mont Blanc Du Tacul with an easy plod to finish if you want to bag a 4000 metre peak.

Al

In reply to jcoup:

Tour Ronde is a good suggestion but here's another to look at

Migot Spur (D- 3)

In reply to jcoup:

Dislikes are a bit unhelpful aren't they?  Would the dislike box tickers care to make a more positive contribution?  I'm sure the OP would appreciate that.

In reply to The Migot on the Chardonnet is a good classic  The NE Slope on the Courtes is a bit easier or perhaps the Gervasutti Couloir on the Tour Ronde Too many to choose from but possibly none in great condition in July/ August

In reply to jcoup:

Possibly go through the tunnel towards Aosta and do the Gran Paradiso NW face: classic snow/ice face, mid/low D when I did it (but that was >50 years ago!), easy and well-trodden descent.

https://www.summitpost.org/gran-paradiso-north-west-wall/160124

In reply to Suncream:

Migot is a great route... was my first North face.. thoroughly reccomend it!

Barbeg 

In reply to jcoup:

Check www.camptocamp.org and see what is being done at the time and then pick your route accordingly. Make sure there is a good overnight freeze the night before the climb, not a non existent one.

In reply to jcoup:

The Gervasutti couloir on the Tour Ronde often has an impassable bergschrund by July, unless May and June are cold and snowy.

North Face (D 3) can be in condition in July if June is cold and snowy and you get a decent overnight freeze.

The same preconditions are nowadays necessary even for formerly reliable routes like the Contamine-Grisolle (AD 3) and the Chere Couloir.

Basically you're hoping that May and June are cold and snowy as that is when the snow sticks to these faces to make the neve - the winter snow is too dry in general to stick and make neve on the steeper faces.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

It’s nothing like the Walker Spur. I took my girlfriend up it including the rognon on for her first Alpine route. I wouldn’t have let her near the Walker. Can’t believe you posted that. 

In reply to jcoup:

If you want mixed, got from early / mid June. If the summer is cold and snowy, there might still be stuff to do late July and August but most recent years that hasn’t been the case.

For rock, if you’re happy to travel, the Cassin on the Badile is well worth a look. There’s enough there (including on the descent) to make it feel like a mini NF but it’s nowhere as serious as the big NFs. Plus it gets the sun in the morning

In reply to Philb1950:

Why is it nothing like the Walker? Lots of Severe/VS with a few harder pitches thrown in and roughly the same length. Indeed I found a couple of pitches on the Rognon harder than the hardest pitch on the Walker. I most definitely did NOT compare the two in seriousness and even acknowledged that the harder grade of the Walker was justified.  The Frendo was my first alpine route in the late 60's and I did not have a good time on it. I did the Walker many, many years later so perhaps my memory is mistaken or my alpine experience was better but instead of simply being dismissive why don't you explain why you disagree. 

Just to be clear and in case you and others have misunderstood, I'm talking about the routes from the start of the technical difficulties to the summit.

In reply to jcoup:

NE face Lenspitze (Obviously not cham)

Ginat / North face Les Droites

Tour Ronde

Shroud on the Jorasses (more committing)

In reply to summo:

Are all of those supposed to be recommendations for a first north face?

In reply to jcoup:

I expect that unless it has been a snowy cold spring you will be struggling to find much of quality on North Faces in July August.

Best is to climb what is in condition at the time rather than set your sights on something that is unlikely to be doable.

Also best to climb where things are in condition rather be limited to a fixed location, if possible.

Its all about being flexible and making the most of the conditions.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Where do you start though, none are horrendous, but at some point you have to step off the ridges onto the faces, ideally with a more experienced partner. There are easier, shorter ones, but are they north faces, not that it matters as many East or Western flanks can be just as mean! 

It's really hard if you don't know what they have done previously, their technical ability, but also how good their admin is and their fitness. Doing long alpine routes isn't the same as say onsighting a few steep pitches in Scotland. 

In reply to summo:

Not on two of those.

Yes, the other two.

In reply to summo:

Well the The Ginat (ED1 5) and The Shroud (TD- 4) are both pretty full on for first North Face routes for someone who let’s assume doesn’t have a long palmares, otherwise they wouldn’t be on here asking the question. 
Alternatively if they are like Philb1950 they can probably climb The Ginat with their girlfriend as a first Alpine route.

In reply to summo:

I really find you are inconsistent and clearly post opinions without thinking things out. In one thread, still currently running about accidents on beginners meets you are maintaining that they are always due to human error, and go on about looking after the kids (ugh) but when someone who is obviously fairly inexperienced alpine wise, as  in this post asks recommendations for what is clearly a reasonably moderate suitable N. face snowy or mixed route you throw in things like the Ginat, or even Shroud with no thought about how you get off or approach, along with the Tour Ronde. If that's not asking for accidents I don't know what is. Part of the problem I believe  that arises when people think being a frequent poster is a recommendation.,

One route I might suggest to the OP is the Dolent ( more than one possibility) and there are also possibilities along that whole wall around to the Triolet, as too on the Argentiere: but conditions, conditions!! And that huge N side of the Aiguilles offers other possibilities than the Frendo. But there are better routes mixed and otherwise on the other side. 

In reply to jcw:

I've clearly rattled people, I was merely thinking in terms of faces, rather than mixed ridge lines that happen to run northwards. 

In reply to summo:

Are these recommendations based on having done those routes yourself?

In reply to jcoup:

Some of these recommendations are helpful, some eminently not. I'd say that if you have the luxury of 2 whole months in Cham then first read as much as you can find, then just get out there, do some easier stuff and get fit, acclimatized and used to granite, ice and snow, and chat to the climbers you'll meet. You shouldn't have a problem finding something which suits your preferences and abilities and who knows, maybe you'll come back with the Walker or the Dru under your belt. Just be flexible with your ambitions, and cautious. 

In reply to DaveHK:

Yes. But, when I decided to move onto faces, it just happened subtly, it wasn't a deliberate I want to climb a North face. I'd done the snow plods, I'd done a lot of spurs & ridges, and mixed stuff on the larger hills. I was accustomed to longer days, more technical ground, decision making, stuff like moine ridge, traverse of la meije, mittilegi and so on. 

If a person aspires to north faces, or grand courses, I clearly wrongly made the assumption that they already have some experience of getting themselves up longer routes, off big hills as they'd been doing this already for several seasons.

I wouldn't personally count frendo as a big alpine route, it's a longish and varied climbing experience, but is effectively served by telepheriques at the top and bottom. It's not the same as climbing a hill and then having to come down an easier line that you may not have ascended that year (or ever). The same with climbing chere couloir, or pyramide du tacul... Nice climbing but it's not as commiting when you have cable cars on your door step and don't have long problematic descents to consider. 

Moving to the faces I see it as a progression climbing nice lines, rather than aiming for 'North faces'. 

In reply to summo:

Fair enough, I was just curious because it seemed like an odd list! I've not done any of them mind...

In reply to DaveHK:

I'd say if people haven't ticked some of the non cable car served 4000ers in the mont blanc range by their easier lines, then there is an immense amount of fun, adventure and experience to be had, without ever stepping onto a North face.

In reply to jcoup:

I think there's a strong chance by the time it's August, maybe in July as well, that lots of the north face suggestions here won't have the necessary snow/ice conditions. I suspect lots of the posters here may well have done these routes in July/August in the past, but recently conditions have been disappearing earlier in the summer than they used to, for climate change reasons I suppose.

The Walker is the only north face I can think of in Chamonix that is going to be desirable to do in dry conditions in August. I'm no expert though, so may well be wrong.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Rebuffat who probably knew more about Mont Blanc climbs than most of us lists Frendo at 73:and Walker at 108. That’s why people dislike your post. As an aside I did the Frendo with my girlfriend as her first alpine route, but I would never have let her near the Walker. Tour Ronde a good call being easy to get to and return, but beware if the ice is black. Too many fatalities here for an easy route

In reply to Philb1950:

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.  Yes the Walker is overall considerably harder but that is because of the long technical approach and descent and your decision to not let your girl friend anywhere near the Walker was the right decision but I still maintain that pitch for pitch the difficulties are similar for a comparable height.

Which pitches on the Walker did you find harder? Same question to all the dislikers.

In reply to Misha:

You'd need to be shifting to get up it in the sunshine!  I guess it's not too serious, as long as the weather is OK... but it's long.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

No takers then? 

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

The Frendo is not really a mixed route having what in good conditions is one easy snow/ice arête. We found most of the the pitches on the Walker more difficult as it was in winter and we wore crampons virtually all the way. But the remoteness, route finding, objective danger all combine to creat the overall experience and seriousness. Whereas the Frendo is a relatively

easy day out from the first frique? You know what Dougal Haston  said about the 38 route on the Eiger “ nothing harder than 5+ said the man who was never there” Perfect summarisation.

In reply to Philb1950:

Absolutely but  I thought I had made that clear and comparing a summer ascent of one with a Winter ascent of the other is not really a fair assessment.

Both my ascents were in summer and I stand by my comments which you haven't really addressed with regard to relative pitch difficulties.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

To be fair it was pretty obvious you were talking about the difficulties between bergshrund and summit and ignoring all other factors. Mind you, I imagine most would find that surprising although I couldn’t find a topo which describes the climbing on the rognon. 
 
Anyway, I wouldn’t worry about it, I expect the OP will be off to do the N face of the Droites instead….

In reply to Tyler:

I'm not worried in the slightest, simply interested.  I suspect that many of the dislikes were from people who did not have personal experience of the two routes and were basing their comments on reputation.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

while i have done neither, from what i know, the walker has several hard E1 pitches with plenty of HVS ground too. and the crux cant be aided as its a traverse on a blankish wall. the frendo on the otherhand is mostly severe-VS like you say. It has 2 pitches of HVS but these can easily be aided. yes the upper rognon is a grade or so harder but its not that long and there is little logic in choosing to do it given that you will already have the ice/snow gear out for the snow ridge up to it.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I've not done the Walker, but I remember the Frendo as being mostly pretty easy climbing with a few Short tricky sections and a couple of considerably harder pitches on the rognon (though most people seem to skip that anyway nowadays). By reputation the Walker is much more sustained, but what do I know?

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Whilst Rebuffat’s scale is out of date (he wasn’t big on mixed given the gear at the time so he ‘overgrades’ it), I do think the Walker is considerably harder even without the descent (the approach is no big deal as far as the schrund). The hardest pitch on the Frendo is HS. The Walker has 3 E1 pitches and a couple at HVS (or at least it feels that way with a large sack). The climbing is harder on average (there isn’t much technical walking like on the Frendo, it’s mostly scrambling to V Diff). There is no really easy mixed ground either and no snow arete plod - the mixed is around Scottish III and there are quite a few pitches of it. The route finding is harder as well. The Walker took us a very long day plus an hour or two in the morning, all roped up although with a fair bit of moving together. These days I’d probably do the Frendo bin to bin and solo most of it; I don’t think I’d pitch anything, just move together on some bits. Edit - that’s assuming going round the Rognon, which most people do these days if conditions are decent. 

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Yeah sure, the sun goes soon enough but it’s nice to get it. The Walker gets the sun a bit as well, both early and then again late on but for a much shorter proportion of the climbing day. I found the Cassin quite friendly and essentially a long rock climb at altitude with bits of moving together and nice scrambling at the top. The descent is where people tend to go wrong. We were first on and did about 6h up and 3h down the North Ridge. The day flowed really well and it all came together nicely. One of those rare positive alpine experiences…

In reply to Webster:

I think we have reached peak UKC! Someone describing in detail the intricacies of two routes they have not done to someone else who has actually done them both 

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

If you insist on being pedantic then the hardest pitches on the Walker are technically not on the face of it harder than the Frendo, but I only remember one pitch on the Frendo on the upper rognon being tricky whereas there are many on the Walker. Shock Horror Slab on Stanage is technically 6B and eminently easy to solo if you climb that grade, whereas say Our Father at the same technical grade is not so. That’s the type of comparison you have to make.

In reply to Tyler:

Though, to be fair, the person who has not climbed them has made a better assessment of the routes than the person who has.

In reply to Philb1950:

I have been persuaded that my recollection of the two routes is wrong.  I do however know that I had a very tough time on the Frendo and a relatively easy time on the Walker.  But I was more experienced on the Walker and the conditions were far more favourable. This has probably influenced my memories and prevented me looking at the two routes in the cold light of day. And it was 50 years ago

Al

In reply to Robert Durran:

I've done both and I don't recognize webster's descriptions at all.

In reply to Robert Durran:

That's the last time you will get any supportive comments or "likes" from me   Just kidding Robert, it was quite amusing.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

But we have already established that having done them is no qualification at all!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Give me a break it was 50 years ago after all.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Sorry. Only joking

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm considering changing my user name to Mehgan

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: Do you mean Meghan ?  Best stick to Al its easier  

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Good effort 50 years ago, it was 44 years ago for me, 1977. Anyway assuming we still manage to get up the odd route, it’s all good!

In reply to jcoup:

The suggestion of the Ginat on the Droites is a bit random as a first N face, this made me chuckle, we actually did it in july 1988 as my second face after soloing the  Courtes north face the week before, but to put it into perspective we were climbing the hardest thin ice test pieces on the Ben at the time. 

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

And the Ginat is hard to get in good conditions these days. Says someone who hasn’t done it yet, for that reason. 

In reply to Misha:

Not easy in the eighties either (at least in summer), though I was always inspired by the line to the east summit rather than the Ginat. I went up to do it no less than eight times but only crossed the bergschrund twice. Definitely the one that got away for me.

In reply to summo:

I did NNE face of Lenzspitze today. It's very amenable climbing, today it was firm snow so we soloed the whole way. Soloing wouldn't be a particularly representative north face, and if you didn't fancy soloing I think you would have to have dug very deep to find any usable ice for screws. In lean conditions it might make a good north face for practicing simul-climbing. But it's definitely not in Chamonix and presumably in July it will have a lot of rockfall, so not super useful for OP.

In reply to Suncream:

You seem to be having a good year in the Alps.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Yes, I would definitely recommend the OP moves here instead of just coming for the busiest but arguably worst months of July and August, you can get a lot more done (in fact I spent July and August back home this year)

In reply to Suncream:

Perhaps arguably I'm reflecting on the alps 20 years past, when everything wasn't melting away, with whistling rocks coming at you by July! 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well the Ginat is no longer a summer route…

In reply to jcoup:

Needs a drive over the hill, but Lenzspitze NF.