I'm only an hour in but I have to say, what an awesome effort to put such a huge download of info together and then giving it away for free. I guess it'll end with "and here's my new book" which no doubt will be to the same high standard as his other texts.
On a personal level, everything he's said so far, mirrors my own struggles with fuelling/nutrition strategy.
I'm not sure I'd be able to hack a keto diet but I suppose I should try and see if it does indeed solve many of the problems.
> I'm only an hour in but I have to say, what an awesome effort to put such a huge download of info together and then giving it away for free. I guess it'll end with "and here's my new book" which no doubt will be to the same high standard as his other texts.
Sounds like this means your thread is an advert for his book then :P
Just my way of saying thanks, Dave.
> Even though the ketogenic diet is significantly superior in the induction of weight loss in otherwise healthy patients with obesity and the induced weight loss is rapid, intense, and sustained until at least 2 years, the understanding of the clinical impacts, safety, tolerability, efficacy, duration of treatment, and prognosis after discontinuation of the diet is challenging and requires further studies to understand the disease-specific mechanisms.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499830/
Not sure if this is covered in the video as I can't be bothered to sit through 4 hours of it, but it seems to be a good idea on paper in the short term but the long term effects are unknown
You've got to put the groundwork in if you want them to drink the kool-aid.
> On a personal level, everything he's said so far, mirrors my own struggles with fuelling/nutrition strategy.
Same. I watched it all already. I've never been too concerned whether my diet was classed as keto or not (rightly or wrongly) but being willing to educate yourself and experiment with diet has been really worthwhile.
Dave is great but he needs to get out more 😂.
i find how he bangs on about eating more daily meat than a lion very boring. almost preaching that vegetarians are wrong in their choice and are disadvantaged. i wont be watching it.
In reply to Shani:
You mean the paleo diet wars. Now, as then, the popularity of this diet has far more to do with Rousseau's Nobel Savage than physiology.
The video has timestamps which are well labelled so you could watch the 10 mins or so labelled "downsides of the keto diet" and see if it answers your question
In reply to Shani:
I'm 3hrs in now. While i'm still impressed by the level of effort that's gone into it, most of it is 10,000ft over my head. I think I'll need to wait for "Keto for Dummies" to be pulished.
>"i find how he bangs on about eating more daily meat than a lion very boring. almost preaching that vegetarians are wrong in their choice and are disadvantaged. i wont be watching it."
I've not seen that so far. To paraphrase, he seems to be saying... "This wont help everyone. It has helped me. If you are like me then it might help you."
If your gonna try be prepared to eat FAT! I had a tub of clotted cream yesterday and climbed all night with energy throughout! Didn’t finish though!
i think he is saying referenced studies don’t have credibility as those trialled typically are poorly adapted or not following a proper keto diet (low carb is looow). He uses his first try as an example of how lack of detail results in failure.
It’s working for me.
In reply to Shani:
Good reply, have an upvote
4 hours? He needs an editor.
What an infantile post, how old are you, 12?
In reply to Shani:
ATAWNTM*, so could you CMWP*, and FITB*?
(* All These Abbreviations Were New To Me, Check My Working Please, Fill In The Blanks)
LDL (low-density lipoprotein) I already knew, as a type of cholesterol.
(Wouldn't have bothered posting if I didn't think that your points were interesting and worth being able to understand fully. If you could invest an extra few seconds typing, then the 'saving' for the multiple readers would be several times the extra effort.)
Re-reading whole thread I see that TKD is probably: Targeted Ketogenic Diet.
In reply to Shani:
Yet to watch the video but i'll get cracking tonight, sounds like an epic!
I've had a very similar approach to keto to you - I went zero carb about three years ago but am now just low carb (imo this is more achievable with family meals). My experience is that my energy levels are far more stable and I'll never go back to a carb based diet. Anecdotally I also seem to pick up far less soft tissue injuries than before.
In reply to Shani:
Ta! Kicking myself for not figuring out 6N now. PM possibly stands for Pedantic Motherf… in this case.
In reply to Shani:
Out of interest what started you on the Paleo route?
After spending a lot of time in SW France c.20-25 years ago I realised that all my French in-laws/friends were eating volumes of fat that would get the sirens wailing here yet they were all elegantly thin, healthy and not shy of booze or other culinary pleasures. They consumed nothing like the volume of refined carbs that we do though and portions were smaller, though I never went hungry.
However when anyone here sees you living off fat and meat you get more sceptical opinions than vegans do.
I go back and forth, but I always feel better and am less lardy during periods where my diet is meat and fat heavy. I am lucky in being able to do this without my cholesterol level going above 5 though. Also, at risk of lowering the tone, if I’m eating lots of fibre (oats, bread) and stodge (rice, spuds, rarely pasta) visits to the bog are generally unsatisfactory whereas a diet of meat, eggs, fat and veg would win me a medal from Gillian McKeith.
I am about half way through.
Interesting how DM dismisses the work of towse? In one breath the repeatedly references him almost immediately afterwards
Do you have a specific time reference for this?
No, and not prepared to go through it all again.
DM mock spits at first mention of the name without qualifying, then repeatedly references later. Somewhere in the second hour, 2 hours is as far as I have got.
Fair enough. I had a quick look (the bit you mention is at 1:28:00) but couldn't see any other references to Gary Towse (or however it is spelled). It's possible Dave disagrees with his conclusions/interpretations but references for the raw results of a study?
Gary Taubes ruffles the feathers of the nutrition industry with his books about fat and sugar, being a physics-trained journalist. I got the impression that Dave approves of his work and was referencing the response of the diet-industry stalwarts with the faux spitting. Maybe Dave can clear this up for us?
> almost preaching that vegetarians are wrong in their choice and are disadvantaged
Yep, it's pretty sickening how he rams his opinions down other people's throat, for example (from the end of a related Dave MacLeod vid: youtube.com/watch?v=UPi41bSrFdI& ): "There is only one thing that I recommend in any of these discussions, which is education. I really hope that people take the time – and it does take a lot of time and effort – to read beyond the headlines or the opinions of any single person that you see on the internet, including myself, and read the raw research, and try to understand all aspects of the physiology."
Seriously, he's always so almost-painfully politely careful to say: 'this worked for me, it might not for you', 'there's not enough evidence to draw a conclusion either way here', or 'this is what I did, and not advice or a recommendation', it's quite impressive to me that someone could manage to manage to distil his intent down into 'vegetarians are wrong' preaching.
I found it to be an extremely interesting video, and I don't recall (despite it being four hours long!) there being a single mention of how much meat (specifically) or protein (generally) he eats daily.
I can't comprehend the amount of effort that has gone into researching the topic, never mind producing the video, and I'm sure both people who have a passing interest in diet (but no intention of trying keto) or anyone who's a totally committed vegetarian/vegan would find lots of interest, nothing 'threatening' and no pressure/preaching to change their position or diet, if viewed with open-minded curiosity and interest.
Or, alternatively, there is the position that someone who thinks eating meat is important and valuable for their own health can never again have anything else of value to say, even on the wider topic of diet more generally.
It's not a hard to guess which sort of person one would rather stumble across in an isolated bothy, irrespective of whether they're vegetarian or not.
I accept that your mind is highly unlikely to be anything but firmly made-up here, but what you describe and what I've seen from DM, I struggle to relate to each other.
In reply to Shani:
> - yet on the other channel, someone who has not watched Dave's video feels able to denounce it as a diet requiring 'willpower' (Dave explicitly tackles this idea),
Dave kind of glosses over it really, but for me not drinking alcohol and drastically reducing my portions if carbs would require way more willpower than just controlling portion sizes and limiting the ‘bad’ things to being occasional.
In reply to Shani:
> Change requires willpower and willpower is exhaustible. But this misses the LC nuance which is to do with satiety and satiation and not to do with portion sizes per se.
So you would agree that low carb requires will power, but you consider the type of willpower to stick to a rigid set of rules about what you can and can’t eat to be less than that to moderate a mixed diet. I think this may come down to personality type, as I’m certainly the opposite.
In your thought experiment you just took yourself out of ketosis, so you may as well enjoy the cake too!
In reply to Shani:
There's a bit of me which thinks that there's a pretty high overlap in terms of what you've said there with a "don't eat highly processed calorie bombs" diet, since they tend to be very calorie dense but not very filling. I have never tried going seriously low carb but did get reasonable results from just swapping some of my carbs for veg some years ago - less calorie dense food hitting some of the triggers of fullness/satiety. And that was obviously far less restrictive in terms of removing large food groups.
In reply to Shani:
I know several people on low carb for whom not going for chips or toast is still a constant fight, so I’d say the appetite adaption seems to vary from person to person too.
I don’t have a meal plan btw, but I think trying to describe low carb as not being rigid when you have to control your carb intake and also make sure you’re eating enough fat (and salt it seems from Dave Mac’s vid) seems a bit of a stretch.
In reply to Shani:
> It raises a wry smile as i reflect on the UKC Keto Diet War circa 2008. IYKYK.
Those were the days. Better than arguing about Brexit, at least keto has some benefits.
There’s some interesting discussion about this in the ultra / endurance world. Some athletes have had some success on this diet; Zach Bitter had the 100 mile track record for a while. For shorter distances (50k race walkers) the excellent Supernova studies have definitively shown that carbohydrate rich diets are better for endurance performance.
Tim Nokes and Phil Maffetone, endurance gurus, have both gone all in on Keto for health reasons. I’m not sure if they’re right of wrong, but there’s an excellent Tim Hoax spoof account on Twitter 😃
I watched the whole video and thought it was great. I’ve done Keto three times, in 2010, 2018 and 2020. Each time was for about 3 months and each time I lost between 10 - 15 kg. I have always fallen off it due to finding it hard to stick to with family/friends/social occasions/beer etc. Each time I’ve stopped, the weight has just piled back in to my previous set point. Having watched this I’m keen to do it again and just accept that it’s for the long term. I always feel better in ketosis anyway. I reckon that Dave’s video is a great resource and I can’t wait for the follow up films.