UKC

Just idly thinking about various things whilst stuck on the M60 yesterday evening.  

I'm from a time when terms like "Manageress" and "Comedienne" were the norm, but like many other gender specific titles they're no longer in use now.  I can't think of the last time I heard either being used.

"Actress" seems to be on the way out - I think most female actors use the term "Actor" now, but occasionally one will refer to themselves as an "Actress".  I'm genuinely not sure about "Waitress".

Are there two types here...where some fall into a strictly "gender neutral" zone, and others (like "Waiter / waitress") falls into a "down to the persons own preference but probably moving into gender neutrality over time" zone?

And are there any which still definitely gender specific?  I wondered about whether Prince / Princess would ever move to just "Prince" at some point.  

This is in no way a "ITS PC GAWN MAAAAD" post.  I like how language changes over time, and I don't really have an opinion or an axe to grind in anyway.  Just a random train of though whilst stuck in traffic (and a post to UKC whilst waiting for a database to churn through some numbers)

dominatrix

Nanny.

Hmm.  I've some of some males in a Nanny-role calling themselves Manny.  So maybe

I wonder if my serial disliker is actually a serial dislikeress

Chef! and Lenny Henry were ahead of their time.

Sperm donor?

Rent boy. 

Male nurse

Lady doctor

Midwife....don't think this has changed but there are some men in the job!!

Disliketrix? Especially with whips.

W@ nker

The term allegedly derives from middle english words 'mid' (=with) and 'wife' (=woman) and applies to anyone "with the woman" - I.e. providing assistance to a birthing mother - regardless of gender. 

Father Christmas? What, with the beard and everything…

Actor, actress. Why no Doctress? 

Stunt cock.

See also, Prime Minister.

Interesting! Thanks for the info...!

Not all people with wombs who give birth are married, so it needs to go anyway. 

It had never crossed my mind. Fair point though.

Prime Minister 

Seamstress? Can’t think of a direct ‘male’ equivalent  other than ‘tailor’, perhaps, though I think they occupy a slightly different niche

How about Barman/Barmaid? I don't know any female bar stewards that call themselves a barman

Testator, testatrix

Barstaff, just like waiter/waitress becomes waitstaff.

In cricket, batsman has pretty much disappeared to be replaced by batter.

Or at the moment for the English team in Australia, batty.

T.

hmmm good point, hadn't thought of that one

Because everyone calls them “nurse” regardless?

Close, but the correct descriptor for an English batsman/batter is "out" 😁

Widow Twanky, which has to be played by a male 50 plus year old.

Sleeping policeman

I was about to explain that male midwives are just midwives but someone else has already done it nicely! There was an interesting article on the BBC website last year I think about male midwives in the UK, there are a few but not so many. I'm sure google would turn up the article quickly enough for anyone interested.

But just like midwife doesn't actually refer to the person doing the job, but rather who they will be with when they are doing their job, the "wife" of midwife doesn't refer to marital status but only sex.

Hairdressers and barbers?

Isn't that based on who's hair they cut rather than their own gender? There is a female barber where I used to get my hair cut

Yeah, kind of, maybe more the style of the establishment than who sits in the seats.

Indeed.  Where I live anyone female can be referred to as a wife.  

I was going to say Salesman but they seem to be a thing of the past. They now all seem to be Buisines development managers now. 

Chairman - we’ve had “lady chairman” and “chairwoman” but now it’s just “the chair” which seems far more sensible. 

The only time I've heard a headteacher reffered to as the headmaster, in the last 10 or so years, was on here. Not sure if I should read anything into that? 

Re: male midwives 

We had one for our first.

Historically was there a male equivalent of 'char lady' ? 

Technically (for a company anyway) you can only be a chairman.

In the companies act, anyone, regardless of gender, is always a chairman.

Military still has rather a lot - "Rifleman" etc. But given women have only recently been able to apply for dismounted close combat roles, this will likely change. 

My actual surname is Workman. And the missus is Mrs Workman?

You must know the old joke

A bloke in the queue at a sperm donation clinic notices that the person in front is a woman

"Excuse me" he asks "do you realise this queue is for sperm donors?"

She turns around with mouth tightly closed, her cheeks bulging and just nods

Female nurses are sometimes referred to as “sister….” Will male nurses ever be called “brother…”?!

No, sister is a specific job title rather than a generic term for a female nurse. A man doing the same job would be called a charge nurse or a ward manager I believe. 

That is a much better way of putting it. There is a barbers and a hair dressers next door to each other around here, and the staff seem to do shifts in both

Or waitron.  On being told that my waitron would be with me ´momentarily’ in a US restaurant, I was quite disappointed when someone apparently entirely human turned up.

A friend of mine works in food research and commonly uses "waitron" to describe the table-service staff

Widow/widower. As a widowed male, I would happy to see this gender neutral (as widow).

...and didn't disappear again in an instant 🙂

Kind of, although a ward manager could be either sex and tends to be focused more on admin/upper management liaison.  Sister/charge nurses tend to be more clinically focused and supervise junior nurses and overall patient care.  Depending on unit/ward size and hospital culture one person might do both roles. 

Server is pretty common nowadays? Makes sense to me and feels a bit more egalitarian than waiter/ess.

Also I've been working for a spirits company for the last two years and we exclusively refer to bartenders which happily covers the people behind the bar.

Firefighter is surely pretty entrenched now (and again seems more sensible than fireman as it describes the job)? Seeing the term 'fishers' used in the press a lot when referring people going out on boats that catch fish.

Almost the opposite problem in France

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/academie-francaise-allows-fem...

Haven't they all become Chief Executives by now? Finding one who actually did any teaching was hard enough when I was still in the job.

Or that Australia has out-battered, or simply battered, England

Could a female nurse who has reached the rank of sister/charge nurse choose to be called Charge Nurse instead of Sister if they prefer? And if so does that happen much?

I think it's interesting how naming conventions seem to be moving to gender neutral words, as my perception was that 10 years ago having female - specific words like 'manageress' and 'comedienne' as mentioned was seen as empowering and desirable by some people in those roles (I'm sure I remember people on TV specifically referring to themselves in those ways - but not everyone, so it seemed like an intentional choice as to whether they used that word or just' manager'), but these days the prevailing view seems to be the opposite!

I think some job names like 'actress' and 'waitress' will probably stick around for quite a while because of how common and well used they are, but imagine most other names will drop any make or female-specific differentiation if they haven't already. 

You sometimes see 'woman [profession]' and I wonder if that might be used more for a short time, but does seem like in general the trend is to remove any specification of gender. 

I found out yesterday that an old colleague has just made that move. Apparently she was asking after me, for golf lessons😊

Yes, the bishop and the actress suggests quite a different narrative from the bishop and the actor.

Probably more historically correct no?

Shouldn't a female doing that job also be called Charge Nurse or Ward Manager ?

I think so, yes, but since I don’t write nurses’ job specs it’s somewhat out of my hands. I was just describing what I understand the title “sister” to mean, not advocating its use. 

Given the demographic on this forum I would be surprised if a significant number of people didn't go to grammar schools etc. My high school (RGS Newcastle) seems to still refer to the headmaster in stuff they send out. 

I took a group of kids from Workington to play rugby there in the late 90's. I think we were the only state school left in the last 16 or 32 . The basis of our team was that most of the Workington U16 rugby league team who lost the national final that year to St Helens went to our school. Consequently we were used to coming off worst in the penalty count but if our backs got around 25% of the possesion we would win comfortably. That game we lost by 5 points, the penalty count was 30+ to 1 against us. As you can tell I'm still bitter about finding out that the ref was one of your old boys. The day obviously made an impression on some of our lads as they still talk about it 25 years later 

Australian would be tradies. See also firies. But AFAIAA both arise as a pattern of Australian slang rather than an intention to be gender neutral.

Wouldn't it be more honest to call them women!

At the Grammar School I went to, the Headmaster was always referred to as just "the Head" - so effectively gender neutral even back then.

However, in cases of poor behaviour, boys were sent to his deputy, known also as the "Deputy Head" for the cane to be administered.

Now if said person had been female, using the female description could have been interesting .... imagine teenage boys being send to the "Deputy Headmistress" for a caning ....

What is it that you think is dishonest about what Yanis Nayu said?